Doing a runner just got more attractive

[Ixion]

From the press (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2960615/Police-pursuit-benefits-don-t-outweigh-risk-report):


Police pursuit benefits don't outweigh risk: report

NZPA Last updated 17:00 13/10/2009





<!-- -normal_story_landing- --> <!--start components/story/common_content--> Few police pursuits uncover evidence of serious crimes and the risks often outweigh the benefits, an Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) report says.
Police assistant commissioner operations Viv Rickard said he had read the report and accepted its findings and recommendations.

The report analysed 137 pursuits reported to it during the five years to December 2008. During that period, 24 people died and 91 were seriously injured in the pursuits.

The report found relatively few pursuits uncovered evidence of serious crimes, other than those associated with the offender's driving.

Pursuits could begin over relatively minor offending, or general suspicion, and end in serious injury or death, IPCA chairwoman Justice Lowell Goddard said.

"In such cases, the benefits from pursuing and stopping an offender do not appear to have outweighed the risks," Justice Goddard said.

"In our view, the police pursuit policy could provide clearer guidance for officers on when they may pursue."

Mr Rickard said police would over the next few months be able to incorporate some findings from the report into policy.

"In saying that, what they have done is reinforced that the considerable amount of work that New Zealand police has done around our policy has also stated that the people responsible for these pursuits and the injuries that occur are the drivers and not the New Zealand police."

Mr Rickard said the IPCA had made some key recommendations, noting in particular the issue of motorcycle pursuits.

"Our data shows that you are 18 times more likely to be injured on a motorcycle than in a car, so police involved in pursuits of motorcycles, we need to take cognisance of that."

Police would also incorporate the IPCA's recommendation around risk assessment, he said.

"That's taking into account the number of people in the vehicle we are pursuing, the age of those people. I think that's important noting that a lot of people involved in pursuits are young."


Justice Goddard. Now there's a legal name to conjure with! No relation to Raynor, I suppose- still it's not that common a name.

[ital916]

Another castration of police procedure. If you run from the police and put yourself into a tree, well..it would have happened sooner or later.

[Patrick]

It was the Police's fault.....

LOL.......

[ital916]

It was the Police's fault.....

LOL.......

So, when do you guys start carrying around wet bus tickets to slap people with...itll happen sooner or later in this super-politically-correct country.

On a side note, I wish there were ambulance bikes in nz, then I would apply to be a motorcycle paramedic. That would a cool job.

[McWild]

I will now go and pretend I am Ghostrider and look for police to run from.



Some say I am easily convinced. I don't see what they're getting at.

[SixPackBack]

As long as the cost of defence out weighs the potential fine 'doing a runner' will become increasingly more popular.

[carver]

thanks for the heads up...
il take the plate off the GSXR

will they chase the TRX?

[p.dath]

This really doesn't mean too much until it translates into some poilicy. Will be interesting to see the result.

[Maki]

This is the kind of chase police should avoid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOTrCiQV0EM

Pointless, and it was pure luck the police officers involved did not suffer serious injury or death. If that is the best they can do they should not do it at all. There has got to be a better way.

[Usarka]

This really doesn't mean too much until it translates into some poilicy. Will be interesting to see the result.

Policy doesn't mean much until it's translated into legislation.

[vtec]

So, when do you guys start carrying around wet bus tickets to slap people with...itll happen sooner or later in this super-politically-correct country.

On a side note, I wish there were ambulance bikes in nz, then I would apply to be a motorcycle paramedic. That would a cool job.

Yeah I totally reckon they need motorcycle paramedics. I find it embarrassing when I'm lanesplitting exceedingly safely say on the NorthWestern, and I come up on ambulances fighting their way through traffic, and I can't help but swap to the other ghost lane and pass them as they are crawling along. A bike paramedic with drugs equipment and a defibrillator pack on their back would save a lot of lives. Would chop some emergency arrival times done to 1/3 or better.

Also, with the ACC blowout, and highly likely massive jump in rego prices, it's going to become much more viable for people to put their rego's on hold and just evade police. This has come at a very ironic time. A bit like the opening of the Grafton Bridge; to busses only; just as all the busses go on strike... and they've still got people policing it :lol:

[pete376403]

St John used (1995-6ish)to have paramedic bikes in Auckland city. BMWs, panniers full of stuff - like cop bikes, but useful. Do they no longer exist?

[p.dath]

St John used (1995-6ish)to have paramedic bikes in Auckland city. BMWs, panniers full of stuff - like cop bikes, but useful. Do they no longer exist?

Someone wrote a Wiki article about it:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/wiki/New_Zealand_Ambulance_Bikes

It sounds like they still exist.

[Ragingrob]

So, when do you guys start carrying around wet bus tickets to slap people with...itll happen sooner or later in this super-politically-correct country.

On a side note, I wish there were ambulance bikes in nz, then I would apply to be a motorcycle paramedic. That would a cool job.


St John used (1995-6ish)to have paramedic bikes in Auckland city. BMWs, panniers full of stuff - like cop bikes, but useful. Do they no longer exist?

On the pink ribbon ride on Sunday there were some motorbike paramedic/ambulances.

[Mom]

"Few police pursuits uncover evidence of serious crimes and the risks often outweigh the benefits, an Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) report says."

Thank you, I hate them, my blood runs cold everytime I hear of one. I was an innocent road user during a chase on the southern motorway a while ago, the police were so lucky the guy did not take out a heap of innocent people going about their daily lives while they were in hot pursuit.

Patently obvious he was not going to stop, the road cone burning under his rear fender confirmed that to me after he about run me off the friggen road, undertaking me on the approach to the Bombay Service Centre. He had picked that up at least 25 kms south.

But now what happens?

[BMWST?]

So, when do you guys start carrying around wet bus tickets to slap people with...itll happen sooner or later in this super-politically-correct country.

On a side note, I wish there were ambulance bikes in nz, then I would apply to be a motorcycle paramedic. That would a cool job.
You would be first on scene of many RTA

[p.dath]

...
But now what happens?

More helicopter pursuits from a safe distance?

[Ixion]

..

On a side note, I wish there were ambulance bikes in nz, then I would apply to be a motorcycle paramedic. That would a cool job.

You can. There are such. But the ambo-bosses won't let them ride at night, or if it's wet, or cold. In case they hurt themselves. I think someone on here either is one or has a partner who is or summit.

[Fatjim]

The really scary thing is there are judges out there who can't think two steps ahead.

[scumdog]

What happens next?

Well for one thing bike thieves will have a ball...

[grusomhat]

Our data shows that you are 18 times more likely to be injured on a motorcycle than in a car,

Doesn't sound that attractive to me. I'm sure by the time they have realised they should stop pursuit, I would have already come off :clap:. I'm sure the experienced riders are different though.

[MIXONE]

Fucking stupid.
Might as well get shitfaced at the boozer and then ride home at full speed.Nobody will bother to chase me.

[TOTO]

Well, whats more attractive - a speeding ticket, or death ?

Doing a runner seems just as unattractive as before to be honest.

[McJim]

This segues nicely from the thread about penalties getting tougher and some speculation on my part that this would increase the instance of runners (and therefore an increase in fatalities).

This suggests that there is already a high incidence of people doing a runner solely to escape the immidiate penalty of their traffic ofence and not because they have 10 kilos of heroine or a body in the boot of their car.

This is therefore an eye opener in that it supports my theory that increased penalties WILL definately increse the number of people who attempt to run.

Oh dear - I hope I'm wrong.

[scumdog]

This segues nicely from the thread about penalties getting tougher and some speculation on my part that this would increase the instance of runners (and therefore an increase in fatalities).

This suggests that there is already a high incidence of people doing a runner solely to escape the immidiate penalty of their traffic ofence and not because they have 10 kilos of heroine or a body in the boot of their car.

This is therefore an eye opener in that it supports my theory that increased penalties WILL definately increse the number of people who attempt to run.

Oh dear - I hope I'm wrong.

If they're not going to be chased (much) who cares??

[McJim]

If they're not going to be chased (much) who cares??

Don't think that's gonna happen T. As I said before though there does seem to be a "have a go" attitue here that I haven't witnessed in Italy or UK. People seem more prepared to take the gamble (kiwis have culturally got a larger gulf between actual ability and perceived ability than most nationalities unfortunately) thinking they'll lose their licence and hit the gas. Once they've hit the gas they're gonna be charged with doing a runner so they're not gonna stop once they realise they've been an idiot and the situation gets worse.

I must confess I don't know what the answer is but suspect it should lie in putting high performance vehicles out of the reach of all but the most calm drivers.

[Insanity_rules]

Gotta love the ministry of silly walks and the plod. One way we go too PC and the other we put our jack boots on. Wheres the middle ground?

[Motoracer]

The bottom line is:

The person doing the runner will be at great risk for the 1st and 2nd time because the mind really tries to screw with you (assuming that you are not already a hardened criminal). Then after 5 runners, it becomes not too big of an ordeal and you can think reletively logically during the pursuit. After 10+ runners, one could intentionally engage into a "cat & mouse" game.

My point is, when a split second decion is made to "run" for the first or second time, the risks are still very deadly no matter what the police decides. Like a "skitso", the runner is really fighting with her or his own mind and often makes the wrong decisions leading upto fatal or serious injuries. I would say, this result could still occur even if the police had discontinued the pursuit for some time.

So the real bottom line is: Don't do it. If you do it, just know that it is a real game of "Russian Roulette".

[Mekk]

...but suspect it should lie in putting high performance vehicles out of the reach of all but the most calm drivers.

I'd love to take THAT scratchy test...

[carver]

Well, whats more attractive - a speeding ticket, or death ?

Doing a runner seems just as unattractive as before to be honest.

just dont get too excited and be moderate in your escape...
its not that hard!

[YellowDog]

I hate getting stopped by the Police and generally try my best to avoid it.

In saying that, if a cop car wants to stop me I am always going to stop and I am never going to try and do a runner.

I suspect that more than 90% of riders are the same.

So the new law is only there to assist a small percentage of those it should not.

Isn't that know as 'aiding and abetting' a crime?

[Usarka]

It's only a pursuit when you know you're being chased.

[breakaway]

I don't think most of the posters understand why people do runners - I don't think anyone here would just run for the hell of it - they probably have nothing to lose. Probably disqualfied, on a bike with no WoF and rego, and got pinged doing 200+. Why not? The penalties for running are way worse but they probably don't see it that way :p

[ital916]

You would be first on scene of many RTA

So very similar to a motorcycle group ride then.

[Danae]

On a side note, I wish there were ambulance bikes in nz, then I would apply to be a motorcycle paramedic. That would a cool job.

There are motorcycle paramedics.

[Swoop]

So the real bottom line is: Don't do it. If you do it, just know that it is a real game of "Russian Roulette".

I think we established that in this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=27970).

[Taz]

just dont get too excited and be moderate in your escape...
its not that hard!

Just don't brag about it and post it up on the interweb with a pretty picture of yourself.

[Ixion]

It's only a pursuit when you know you're being chased.

Very true, actually.

I've never done a runner , with the cop behind with lights and sirens.

But I have done dodgers. "Shit. Bugger. But - he's got to stop, turn round, get back into the traffic. He won't have gotten my plate. If I can get round that corner ahead, then down that street to the right, then down the lane behind the factories, and along the foottrack, I'll be well out of sight before he gets on my tail. "

I'd always stop (I think) for reds and blues behind me. But If I'm tucked away out of sight down a side road, and I see (or hear) the cop heading off into the distance (down the first turning on the left maybe), well, that's another matter.

I didn't KNOW I was being pursued. For all I knew the cop might have decided not to bother. Nothing says I have to stop and wait IN CASE he decides he wants a word.

[Ender EnZed]

Very true, actually.

I've never done a runner , with the cop behind with lights and sirens.

But I have done dodgers. "Shit. Bugger. But - he's got to stop, turn round, get back into the traffic. He won't have gotten my plate. If I can get round that corner ahead, then down that street to the right, then down the lane behind the factories, and along the foottrack, I'll be well out of sight before he gets on my tail. "

I'd always stop (I think) for reds and blues behind me. But If I'm tucked away out of sight down a side road, and I see (or hear) the cop heading off into the distance (down the first turning on the left maybe), well, that's another matter.

I didn't KNOW I was being pursued. For all I knew the cop might have decided not to bother. Nothing says I have to stop and wait IN CASE he decides he wants a word.

What would the legal situation be if he guessed right and found you?

[Ixion]

Buggered if I know. Not good, but, given a good brief, not as bad as actually running from the reds and blues.

[vtec]

If given options, cops generally assume you've turned left, as that is usually the easiest and most invisible option if you've gotten out of sight... so I reckon turn right to get away. Or just use a footbridge. or park thoroughfare.

[Ixion]

Never take the first left. A wise rider keeps a little list of good dodge points. Parks and footbridges are good but ONLY if the far side is not easily accessible. Most parks, if you ride through them, the cop can probably get around the side quick enough to pick you up when you come out. Or, even, follow you.

Footbridges ditto. Ones that cross a river are usually good.

[Mikkel]

What would the legal situation be if he guessed right and found you?

Absolutely no different than if you had waited for him... after all, you are free to go exactly where you want on the public roads.

You are only obliged to pull over and stop in two cases:

1) Being followed by a car with blue and red lights.
2) Being signalled to stop by a uniformed police officer. (Him sitting in a car and waving at you would be very difficult to spot when you are paying attention to the traffic around you.)

In case 1) I would pull left and slow down, not stop - but wave the copper past. Surely he couldn't possibly be wanting to pull me over - I have done nothing wrong...

[SixPackBack]

Very true, actually.

I've never done a runner , with the cop behind with lights and sirens.

But I have done dodgers. "Shit. Bugger. But - he's got to stop, turn round, get back into the traffic. He won't have gotten my plate. If I can get round that corner ahead, then down that street to the right, then down the lane behind the factories, and along the foottrack, I'll be well out of sight before he gets on my tail. "

I'd always stop (I think) for reds and blues behind me. But If I'm tucked away out of sight down a side road, and I see (or hear) the cop heading off into the distance (down the first turning on the left maybe), well, that's another matter.

I didn't KNOW I was being pursued. For all I knew the cop might have decided not to bother. Nothing says I have to stop and wait IN CASE he decides he wants a word.

Thanks Ixion......."Doing a dodger" needs adding to the KB vernacular.

[scumdog]

If given options, cops generally assume you've turned left, as that is usually the easiest and most invisible option if you've gotten out of sight... so I reckon turn right to get away. Or just use a footbridge. or park thoroughfare.

Hell, I always turned right - you could see better what was coming and you didn't end up on the wrong side of the road, still, whatever spins your crank..

[Patrick]

So, when do you guys start carrying around wet bus tickets to slap people with....

Those hurty batons and spray will have to go... them noisy guns are loud and when they go bang, they give me a fright. They must go too. And those cuffs are too restrictive. They will have to go too, unless its the cop wearing them before he/she goes on patrol, that'll be OK then....


This is the kind of chase police should avoid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOTrCiQV0EM

Pointless, and it was pure luck the police officers involved did not suffer serious injury or death. If that is the best they can do they should not do it at all. There has got to be a better way.

That bike was quick. It even outran the radio.........

Must have been in a gun free place, they didn't shoot him....

[mouldy]

I don't think most of the posters understand why people do runners - I don't think anyone here would just run for the hell of it - they probably have nothing to lose. Probably disqualfied, on a bike with no WoF and rego, and got pinged doing 200+. Why not? The penalties for running are way worse but they probably don't see it that way :p
They are not that much worse then if you stop after getting pinged at 200kph !

[Bounce001]

No rego because of stupid money hungry dirty thieving mongrel bastards at ACC and cops not allowed to chase = DO A RUNNER! (NB Remove plate first)

[samgab]

"Few police pursuits uncover evidence of serious crimes and the risks often outweigh the benefits, an Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA) report says."

Thank you, I hate them, my blood runs cold everytime I hear of one. I was an innocent road user during a chase on the southern motorway a while ago, the police were so lucky the guy did not take out a heap of innocent people going about their daily lives while they were in hot pursuit.

Patently obvious he was not going to stop, the road cone burning under his rear fender confirmed that to me after he about run me off the friggen road, undertaking me on the approach to the Bombay Service Centre. He had picked that up at least 25 kms south.

But now what happens?

The trouble is, it's a no win situation from the Police point of view. There have been occasions where a pursuit has been abandoned, and then later on the same night, the car that got away was involved in a crash that included innocent fatalities; and when that happened, Police were criticised for abandoning the pursuit.
They do use a better solution when possible in Auckland region, when Eagle is available it will observe from a high altitude whilst the marked units back off and stay out of sight so the offender hopefully stops driving as recklessly, then the units swoop in when the car arrives at it's destination. But Eagle isn't alway available, even in Auckland.

[Swoop]

then the units swoop in
I prefer to casually stroll in.:clap:

[Ender EnZed]

DO A RUNNER! (NB Remove plate first)

Anyone ever managed to rip a number plate off at 200kph? Anyone ever tried?

[vtec]

Usually you can just obscure the numberplate if you even think you might be going to do a runner. Some black electrical tape or a well positioned wof or rego do the trick, and as Samgab has previously informed me, the hugely expensive police database system, has no search function for partial numberplate readings :lol:

[scumdog]

and as Samgab has previously informed me, the hugely expensive police database system, has no search function for partial numberplate readings :lol:

Mwahahahaha!:rofl::killingme

Setting your mates up to get in the shit eh?:msn-wink:
Noice.

[samgab]

Usually you can just obscure the numberplate if you even think you might be going to do a runner. Some black electrical tape or a well positioned wof or rego do the trick, and as Samgab has previously informed me, the hugely expensive police database system, has no search function for partial numberplate readings :lol:


Mwahahahaha!:rofl::killingme

Setting your mates up to get in the shit eh?:msn-wink:
Noice.

Oh yeah, sorry dude, I've since found out how to do that... It's not very easy till you figure out how to use the right wildcards... Or get shown. It wasn't in my training though, I had to work it out myself.

[SARGE]

What happens next?

Well for one thing bike thieves will have a ball...

and at least 2 FMJ and a tracer

[SARGE]

Anyone ever managed to rip a number plate off at 200kph? Anyone ever tried?

mine flips up :rofl:

[Bend-it]

and at least 2 FMJ and a tracer

I believe the standard ratio for a 7.62mm belt is 4b1t... 4 ball: 1 tracer

[chanceyy]

so I wonder what the bikers excuse was last nite gapping it past my place with the cops in hot pursuit .. roads pretty wet as well :chase:

[samgab]

so I wonder what the bikers excuse was last nite gapping it past my place with the cops in hot pursuit .. roads pretty wet as well :chase:

It seems your question should really be: What was the cops' excuse for pursuing that poor motorcyclist and forcing him to ride recklessly on wet roads?

[jrandom]

A wise man once told me "Don't think, just go".

It makes sense in theory.

Motoracer makes a good point, though; until you're used to it (and who'd want to have to do enough runners to get used to it) running from the cops on a motorcycle is an exceeding dangerous thing, due to the mental and physical state it puts you in.

A heartrate at redline and tunnel vision do not lend themseves to good control of the machine.

But, still. It makes sense in theory, and runners on motorcycles have worked for more people than they've failed for. If you keep a cool enough head and there isn't a helicopter in easy range, you're away free.

Unfortunately, with the potential price of failure being death, you have to have a lot of guts to roll those dice against, usually, a few hundred dollars in fines and a few months without a licence.

That said... don't think, just go.

:cool:

[dipshit]

. .

[scumdog]

A wise man once told me "Don't think, just go".

It makes sense in theory.:cool:

Yup - and I can show you the graves of those that acted along those lines....

[Patrick]

Unfortunately, with the potential price of failure being death, you have to have a lot of guts to roll those dice against, usually, a few hundred dollars in fines and a few months without a licence.

That said... don't think, just go.

:cool:

Or a serious lack of brains....

A life versus a few hundy?

Darwin does well......

[carver]

Yup - and I can show you the graves of those that acted along those lines....

still, its always going be a game of high scores.

loose liscense and job if your caught over 141

run and get away free maybe

or get caught and get a failing to stop and dangerous charge.

if the stakes were less high i would pull over....
but i like going fast

[SARGE]

I believe the standard ratio for a 7.62mm belt is 4b1t... 4 ball: 1 tracer

Right .. when yiu DONT want to set something on fire ...:Pokey:


(tracer round into a 55 gallon drum half full of JP4 makes a sizable mushroom cloud FYI)

[Patrick]

run and get away free maybe

Or crash and burn because that soccer mum in her people mover "didn't see you" when she pulled out into your path.... maybe...... :clap:

[jrandom]

Or crash and burn because that soccer mum in her people mover "didn't see you" when she pulled out into your path.... maybe......

You maybe don't get it.

Running from the cops is fun because it's risky.

[scumdog]

You maybe don't get it.

Running from the cops is fun because it's risky.

But you can drink while playing Russian roulette, way more fun and don't need no cop!

[carver]

But you can drink while playing Russian roulette, way more fun and don't need no cop!

your still not getting it...

we aint "pig baiting"

[caseye]

One would hope your'e not actully advocating running form the Police on a 200 K ph motorcycle either.Think of the many wives, mothers, girlfreinds and their kids out there.The ones who would suffer if you or someone you hit died. Not worth it!

[Ypawa]

You maybe don't get it.

Running from the cops is fun because it's risky.

fun -Yes = Stupid > Hell Yeah

[98tls]

fun -Yes = Stupid > Hell Yeah :clap:Be fucking stupid on a Sporty.

[Ypawa]

:clap:Be fucking stupid on a Sporty.

:weird:promoting stupidity? is :crazy:

[98tls]

:weird:promoting stupidity? is :crazy: Yea yea,whatever.You click red i click green,its the interweb get over it.

[Ender EnZed]

drink while playing Russian roulette

Just as much fun and no risk of jail.:beer:

[scumdog]

Just as much fun and no risk of jail.:beer:

Now ain't THAT the truth!

[caseye]

Yeah I guess but hey I 'm pretty sure I'm allergic to hyper velocity lead!
however I'm very allergic to losing the right to ride, so roulette it is I guess, pass the ammu, ammini. Blanks!

[SixPackBack]

Just as much fun and no risk of jail.:beer:

Playing with a loaded pistol is not dangerous and carries no criminal penalty??

[Ender EnZed]

Playing with a loaded pistol is not dangerous and carries no criminal penalty??

Shooting yourself in the head carries no criminal penalty.

[Patrick]

You maybe don't get it.

Running from the cops is fun because it's risky.

"Maybe" you don't get it...

Lotsa "maybes" out there..... and any one of those "maybes" might cause the end of ya....