Countersteering advice...

[magicmonkey]

righty then! Time for me to make yet another noob post asking for advice :)

So, I went out for a ride down the coast after work last night (windy as fuck but that's a whole other topic right there) and when I had enough visibility of the road ahead I thought it would be a good idea to play around with counter steering. Somethig very strange happened, I can countersteer to the right and got plenty of practice in doing that which was useful, but when it come to countersteering to the left my left arm goes completely rigid! I actually have to make a conscious effort to drop my shoulder and relax my arm before I can consciously do it. If I turn off the brain and 'just lean' I know that I much be using countersteering or I wouldn't get around the corner; the second I try and do it consciously I completely lock up :oi-grr:

So, other than practice, practice, practice; has anyone experienced this before and got any useful advice? or if you'd just like to take the piss feel free ;)

[Laxi]

surely the idea is that you shouldn't have to think about, hence n.p:clap:

[retro asian]

Relax your whole body when countersteering....stiff doesn't work so well

It's all in the hips... :banana:

[MSTRS]

Some people find it easier to pull (yea - all right - settle down) rather than push. For this to work, you must pull on the opposite side to the one on which you push. Following me?

[FJRider]

Some people find it easier to pull (yea - all right - settle down) rather than push. For this to work, you must pull on the opposite side to the one on which you push. Following me?

And some people just dont like going round left-hand corners....

[CookMySock]

I actually have to make a conscious effort to drop my shoulder and relax my arm before I can consciously do it. If I turn off the brain and 'just lean' I know that I much be using countersteering or I wouldn't get around the corner; the second I try and do it consciously I completely lock up :oi-grr:This is EXACTLY why you should have done this lesson on your very first 70km/hr ride.

What you have done, is imprinted on your brain, you own personal "way" of steering. This happened when you used your own method and then allowed yourself time to consolidate it, and now this is what your brain will revert to in an emergency. When you try to force yourself to do what you now know to be the right way - your brain will act to prevent you.

I don't think you will be able to rectify this. No amount of practice will undo that imprint. Prove me wrong though, if you can, and then tell me how you did it.

This reminds me of a movie I saw some years ago, where some chopper pilot in the military was unable to use his left eye on the viewfinder/targetty thing, so they taped a periscope to his targetting eye and put him in a jeep and forced to steer around the base for hours at lightspeed until he "got it." The poor cunt was terrified out of his brains, but he sorted his eye, er.. brain, out.

Steve

[magicmonkey]

And some people just dont like going round left-hand corners....

Yeah, I'm very much a rightist, I think that all left hand corners are inferior and should be replaces by a series of right handers instead. In the near future I will be arranging a protest and maybe some 'direct action' to put this point accross :p :banana:

[FJRider]

Yeah, I'm very much a rightist, I think that all left hand corners are inferior and should be replaces by a series of right handers instead. In the near future I will be arranging a protest and maybe some 'direct action' to put this point accross :p :banana:

I'm actually serious....

I dont know if its an inner-ear/balance issue ... or what. Some (like me) prefer, and feel more comfortable, on right hand bends.

[george formby]

And some people just dont like going round left-hand corners....

Valid point, after my run on Sunday I'm 5mm off the edge on the right of the tyre & on the edge on the left. It may be a visibility/road surface thing.
I'm still not convinced that counter steering comes into play unless your really pushing on though. I turn my head, my bike turns. Would moving your body weight into a corner, i.e lifting the bike slightly as you move over & lower the C of G be considered counter steering? This action pushes against the gyroscopic effect which keeps the bike straight & allows the bike to turn in with no steering effort. Again I only do this when I'm in the mood to get stuck into the corners.

[FROSTY]

Dude a part of your problem may very well be the shape of your handlebars. A set of bars with a flatter angle on them might fix things for ya

[vifferman]

I'm actually serious....

I dont know if its an inner-ear/balance issue ... or what. Some (like me) prefer, and feel more comfortable, on right hand bends.
No, it's an Antipodean thing.
Most/many riders in the OtherPartOfTheWorld prefer,and feel more comfortable, on left-hand bends.

As for your counter-steering practice, Mr magicofmonkey, Sir - forget about it. Concentrate on leading through the corner with your inside shoulder (point it into the corner), and on looking through the corner.
And try not to think so much. Feel the corner you must. Be at one with the curve. Wax on, wax off. Ying-tong-iddle-i-po.

[MSTRS]

Valid point, after my run on Sunday I'm 5mm off the edge on the right of the tyre & on the edge on the left. It may be a visibility/road surface thing.
I'm still not convinced that counter steering comes into play unless your really pushing on though. I turn my head, my bike turns. Would moving your body weight into a corner, i.e lifting the bike slightly as you move over & lower the C of G be considered counter steering? This action pushes against the gyroscopic effect which keeps the bike straight & allows the bike to turn in with no steering effort. Again I only do this when I'm in the mood to get stuck into the corners.

No matter what you think you are doing...if you are travelling at more than 15/20kph...you must countersteer to turn. How you achieve it is up to you, but you are momentarily getting the front to turn microscopically in the 'wrong' direction, which tips the tyre onto the side that you turn in. A push or pull on the bars is the most effective way to achieve this. Anything else is too 'soft' to allow snappy course changes.

[325rocket]

I wouldnt get to cut up about it. counter steering isnt all that important until you start getting a good bit of pace on.

it is a good habit to get into but dont stress and fixate on the fact that you find it difficult or it will become a problem.

If it really is stressing you out, send me a message and we can go to a ‘practise spot’ I know that is not a public road and set up a track.

[george formby]

No, it's an Antipodean thing.
Most/many riders in the OtherPartOfTheWorld prefer,and feel more comfortable, on left-hand bends.

As for your counter-steering practice, Mr magicofmonkey, Sir - forget about it. Concentrate on leading through corner with your inside shoulder (point it into the corner), and on looking through the corner.
And try not to think so much. Feel the corner you must. Be at one with the curve. Wax on, wax off. Ying-tong-iddle-i-po.

:clap:Here here, pass the cocoa.

[magicmonkey]

This is EXACTLY why you should have done this lesson on your very first 70km/hr ride.

What you have done, is imprinted on your brain, you own personal "way" of steering. This happened when you used your own method and then allowed yourself time to consolidate it, and now this is what your brain will revert to in an emergency. When you try to force yourself to do what you now know to be the right way - your brain will act to prevent you.

I don't think you will be able to rectify this. No amount of practice will undo that imprint. Prove me wrong though, if you can, and then tell me how you did it.

Nah, I don't go for that reasoning at all, I've got so much to learn that it'll become second nature eventually. I mean, when I first started driving I couldn't corner for beans and my gear changes were appalling, these days my changes are smooth and I get around corners rather well.

Over the winter I got the chance to go on the Irishmans rally in a ford model A, the accelerator is the middle pedal and the brake is on the right, double de-clutching, drum brakes on the front wheels etc. I had to completely change my driving co-ordination and it took about 5 minutes to get it right.


This reminds me of a movie I saw some years ago, where some chopper pilot in the military was unable to use his left eye on the viewfinder/targetty thing, so they taped a periscope to his targetting eye and put him in a jeep and forced to steer around the base for hours at lightspeed until he "got it." The poor cunt was terrified out of his brains, but he sorted his eye, er.. brain, out.

Steve

Bet that was a pom idea!!!

[CookMySock]

I've got so much to learn that it'll become second nature eventually.Not in my opinion.

Steve

[george formby]

No matter what you think you are doing...if you are travelling at more than 15/20kph...you are countersteering. How you achieve it is up to you, but you are momentarily getting the front to turn microscopically in the 'wrong' direction, which tips the tyre onto the side that you turn in. A push or pull on the bars is the most effective way to achieve this. Anything else is too 'soft' to allow snappy course changes.

I agree, if you turn the bars into a corner first, the bike will move in the opposite direction. EEK! I also agree that to turn quickly requires input from the bars but the type of bike you ride dictates how much input, tyre size, bike weight, unsprung weight, C of G, wheelbase, crank/fly wheel weight, revs, oh goodness their are a heap of factors. Any hoo, I reckon looking were you want to go is the best place to start, the subtlety's of handling come with time.:apint:

[magicmonkey]

No, it's an Antipodean thing.
Most/many riders in the OtherPartOfTheWorld prefer,and feel more comfortable, on left-hand bends.

Is that a bit like the water swirling down the plug hole to opposite way ;)


As for your counter-steering practice, Mr magicofmonkey, Sir - forget about it. Concentrate on leading through corner with your inside shoulder (point it into the corner), and on looking through the corner.
And try not to think so much. Feel the corner you must. Be at one with the curve. Wax on, wax off. Ying-tong-iddle-i-po.

Hmm, I'm wanting to get comfortable with countersteering so that I can go teach myself how to swerve effectively. To me, that's an incredibly important skill, right up there next to emergency braking; so I'm going to carry on practicing until it becomes second nature, then I'm going to practice swerving until it becomes second nature. I want to learn what options there are in an emergency and feel comfortable with them pretty quickly, after that I'll chill out and start learning at a more relaxed pace but until then I'll be putting in a lot of miles to make sure I've got it right.

Still, 'practice' is also a bloody good excuse to go for a ride :2thumbsup

[Bend-it]

Yup, teach your body something long enough and it'll become 2nd nature...

I prefer right hand bends as well, but that's 'coz:-
1. I'm not leaning my head towards a bank or kerb or some other hard object, and I can see when there's a car coming in the other direction.
2. If I lowside, I'll be going into a bank or veerge, or something probably more forgiving than under a car.
3. There's a beautiful right hander on the motorway offramp I take everyday and get lots of practice on... :)

Some people prefer to countersteer primarily with their left hand, and keep their right hand concentrating on throttle control... Try that maybe?

[FROSTY]

No, it's an Antipodean thing.
Most/many riders in the OtherPartOfTheWorld prefer,and feel more comfortable, on left-hand bends.
side of the road you ride on has a lot to do with it.
camber and all that

[MSTRS]

I agree, if you turn the bars into a corner first, the bike will move in the opposite direction. EEK! I also agree that to turn quickly requires input from the bars but the type of bike you ride dictates how much input, tyre size, bike weight, unsprung weight, C of G, wheelbase, crank/fly wheel weight, revs, oh goodness their are a heap of factors. Any hoo, I reckon looking were you want to go is the best place to start, the subtlety's of handling come with time.:apint:

For sure. The sort of bike determines the amount of effort required. And some (I've ridden 1 or 2) require the nudge to initiate the turn, BUT you then have to keep pushing on the inside bar, otherwise the front wants to turn in sharper still, all by itself. Horrible.

[CookMySock]

The sort of bike determines the amount of effort required. And some (I've ridden 1 or 2) require the nudge to initiate the turn, BUT you then have to keep pushing on the inside bar, otherwise the front wants to turn in sharper still, all by itself. Horrible.We have two hyosungs that demonstrate this very clearly.

One GT250R has a raised tail (different rear shock) and you only have to think "turn" the damn thing darts at the apex. :Pokey:

One GT650R (standard) and it requires firm bar pressure all the way iiiiin, and all the way ouuuuuut. :Pokey:

They are so completely different to corner hard. Neither are horrible to ride - they are just different.

Steve

[vifferman]

side of the road you ride on has a lot to do with it.
camber and all that
Shirley - you jest.

[MSTRS]

Shows the function of fork angle to be real important. Lift the rear and the front gets slightly closer to vertical and turns in with less effort. Conversely, more rake creates the handling characteristic I described.

[george formby]

For sure. The sort of bike determines the amount of effort required. And some (I've ridden 1 or 2) require the nudge to initiate the turn, BUT you then have to keep pushing on the inside bar, otherwise the front wants to turn in sharper still, all by itself. Horrible.

I've got an 18 incher. Ooh er missus, that would be my front tyre & have to do exactly as you describe when I'm being quick. I hold the front by countersteering otherwise it can feel awfully tucky on the limit. Turns quickly though!

[MSTRS]

I've got an 18 incher. Ooh er missus, that would be my front tyre & have to do exactly as you describe when I'm being quick. I hold the front by countersteering otherwise it can feel awfully tucky on the limit. Turns quickly though!

Not sure that tyre size has a lot to do with it, but fork rake certainly does. Most likely a combo of reasons, including trail etc.
There's a reason a lot of sprotbike riders put a 10mm spacer on the top of their rear shock...

[Ixion]

For sure. The sort of bike determines the amount of effort required. And some (I've ridden 1 or 2) require the nudge to initiate the turn, BUT you then have to keep pushing on the inside bar, otherwise the front wants to turn in sharper still, all by itself. Horrible.

I quite like that characteristic, m'self.

[george formby]

Not sure that tyre size has a lot to do with it, but fork rake certainly does. Most likely a combo of reasons, including trail etc.
There's a reason a lot of sprotbike riders put a 10mm spacer on the top of their rear shock...

Fair call, I have fairly long travel suspension & a bit of rake compared to a sportsbike. I lowered the yokes 10mm which improved turn in & the bike is not much longer than a CBR600. 110/80/18 front & 150/70/17 rear tyres, minimise rolling resistance. Compared to a fireblade I rode recently, at sub 100kmh speeds, the bike turns like an angry weasel. As you mentioned earlier about handlebar input I have quite wide enduro style bars which would accentuate any subtle leverage I use. Good thread.
I just notice what your riding. If i were to buy a sports bike, that would be the bugger for me.

[Slingshot]

This thread is getting way too technical.

Just ride, have fun, don't think too much about what you're doing...focus your energy being aware of your surroundings.

It's incredible...bikes go round corners, regardless if you're focused on counter steering or not.

[CookMySock]

bikes go round corners, regardless if you're focused on counter steering or not.They do, until its' rider gets a bad fright, and then "the bike" stands itself upright and leaves the road, killing its rider. Obviously, this is a problem.

There is no place on the road for riders who can't instantly and decisively take evasive action in an emergency.

Steve

[Motig]

Search the threads theres heaps about countersteering and even the left/right cornering issue. Personally until I joined the KB crew I'd never really heard/bothered about countersteering. Then after seeing all the rubbish on here about it I became paranoid about it and went riding deliberately trying to countersteer as the esteemed opinions here said. It was only when I thought "bugger this is hard to do, how have I managed to survive all this time" and forgot about it and just went back to my normal riding that I realised I'd been doing it all the time. So dont stress over it , your probably already doing it you just havent noticed. :2thumbsup

[cindymay]

I have read everything I could find on this site and others about countersteering. I find it works well for me and it is not a pushing or pulling but more a deft and momentary touch of the bar to settle and initiate the turn. It is no wonder some have a problem if they are trying to push and hold the bar - any longer than a moment is in effect trying to turn the bar like a steering wheel - which it is not and in the wrong direction.

[MSTRS]

... I realised I'd been doing it all the time...
Well, waddaya know?

It is no wonder some have a problem if they are trying to push and hold the bar - any longer than a moment is in effect trying to turn the bar like a steering wheel - which it is not and in the wrong direction.

Depends on the bike. As I said in this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129455555&postcount=21) post, some need to be treated this way. I don't like it, but Ixion does. Go figure. I haven't found a bike yet that corners without some initial input...of some sort. Looking alone doesn't work...it is the act of looking that causes the rider to do 'something else' that starts the bike turning.

[sinned]

Well, waddaya know?


Depends on the bike. As I said in this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129455555&postcount=21) post, some need to be treated this way. I don't like it, but Ixion does. Go figure. I haven't found a bike yet that corners without some initial input...of some sort. Looking alone doesn't work...it is the act of looking that causes the rider to do 'something else' that starts the bike turning.
Off course "looking alone" works - that is how those who claim they don't counter steer or have yet to try counter steering get their bikes around corners.

[discotex]

Off course "looking alone" works - that is how those who claim they don't counter steer or have yet to try counter steering get their bikes around corners.

Are you serious?

Take hands off bars... Look left... Bike goes straight.... Thus looking alone does not turn a bike. Turning a bike requires input on the steering column otherwise we'd fix the bars.

Those who turn by looking (more than just a gentle arc) are countersteering even if they don't know they are. It's 95% of the physics of steering a motorcycle at anything over jogging pace (position of rider mass relative to the bike's mass is the other 5%).

Whether you are aware of it or not doesn't change that it's happening anyway.

[sinned]

Are you serious?

What do you think??

[discotex]

What do you think??

Fairly hard to tell given you're just a bunch of letters on a screen and no inflection of a voice etc to go off.

[terbang]

Try not to loose any sleep over countersteering as you've been doing it all along and probably, like most of us, blissfully unaware that you are doing it. It's what makes a motorcycle lean.
Just enjoy the ride.

[EgliHonda]

And some people just dont like going round left-hand corners....

Shit, I love left handers, can drop the knee like a you-beaut racer. It's those right handers that freak me out, think I'm scared of putting my head into oncoming traffic or something...
Embarassing on rides eh...

[sinned]

Fairly hard to tell given you're just a bunch of letters on a screen and no inflection of a voice etc to go off.
You're right, letters on a screen don't show my powers of mind-over-matter. Once I have fully developed these capabilities I too will be able to ride a bike without countersteering and I truly expect to be able corner like Rossi by sight alone. :rolleyes:

[magicmonkey]

Well, the most resounding piece of advice seemed to be 'you're over-thinking it, chill out'. So, I took a few days away from the bike (more due to being shit faced or hung over than any actual plan ;)) and then I took it out last night, down to Ohiro bay, all around the coast to the city centre and back up home. It's an awesome road for learning on, lots of corners, 50K limit so you don't push yourself and you can often see enough of the road ahead to go a bit faster than that and know you're being safe about it.

I decided to just have a ride rather than try to learn anything, had a great time, then a bit later in the ride I started paying more attention to what I was doing without trying to change what I was doing. I turned up at home with a huge grin all over my face after the ride :) I still need to spend a lot more time doing this before I'm comfortable with it but it was a really good way to learn, I think if I go for a few more rides like that I'll be having a wail of a time and get countersteering down almost by accident :)

Thanks for all the advice and encouraging PM's guys, you've all been your usual awesome selves :D

[CookMySock]

All this "forget it and just ride" advice, is all very good until you get a fright and brain-lock. Then you are fucked aren't you.

Only riders fully brain-trained in countersteering have any command of the bike in an emergency. So either you do, or you don't - which will it be? Roll dice, pay money.. Live, die.. choose today.

Steve

[p.dath]

All this "forget it and just ride" advice, is all very good until you get a fright and brain-lock. Then you are fucked aren't you.

Only riders fully brain-trained in countersteering have any command of the bike in an emergency. So either you do, or you don't - which will it be? Roll dice, pay money.. Live, die.. choose today.

Steve

+1. I have to agree with DB here as well, and I say that from my own personal experience.

I think I was a slow learner when it came to consciously doing counter steering. I know I was doing it for sometime, but if I tried to think about doing it deliberately it all came unstuck.

I went along to one of the NASS sessions. And did nothing but deliberately counter steering for an entire hour while cone weaving. And by the end something clicked, and after that my whole riding experience took a big step forwards.

If you are really new to riding, don't worry about it too much, as you need lots of skills to become automatic. But once you've had some time riding (maybe 12 months?), I would definitely work on being able to counter steer deliberately.

[MSTRS]

I decided to just have a ride rather than try to learn anything, had a great time, then a bit later in the ride I started paying more attention to what I was doing without trying to change what I was doing. I turned up at home with a huge grin all over my face after the ride :) I still need to spend a lot more time doing this before I'm comfortable with it but it was a really good way to learn, I think if I go for a few more rides like that I'll be having a wail of a time and get countersteering down almost by accident :)


I hope you meant 'whale'... :whistle:
Not over-thinking it is really important. Hard not to do, as a learner, when nothing comes automatically.
Keep up the good work - You seem well on the way to freeing up your brain to allow more attention to be directed at hazard awareness, and fine-tuning lane position, cornering lines and so on.

[CookMySock]

I went along to one of the NASS sessions. And did nothing but deliberately counter steering for an entire hour while cone weaving. And by the end something clicked, and after that my whole riding experience took a big step forwards.Good! I previously believed that situation could not be recovered. Well done!

Steve

[Mystic13]

I'm with that guy...

Counter steering seems to be really important to learn. Sure we do it naturally. it's just that when you understand it and practise getting control over the bike it gives you so much more options.

My thoughts are;

- practise counter steering
(when you get this sorted move to)
- practise changing your line through the corner by counter steering.
(it's really useful stuff when you find a large stone or pot hole in your line, you can steer the bike (while leaned over) around the object rather than hitting a large rock and going down the road or hitting a pothole and unsettling the bike.
(when you get this sorted move to)
- practise increasing your turn in speed. you see once you get the idea of counter steering you realise you can come up to a corner countersteer firmly and quickly, diving the bike down to the height you want, do the corner and throw the bike back up again. Doing this means you will dramatically lift your corner speed for any given maximum lean angle you use. Practise until you can dive your bike to the lean angle you want. This takes a little practise to find. You will need a lot more speed, or you'll need to drop the bike in later and pull it up sooner, or have less lean angle.
(so this countersteering skill and the ability to fire the bike up adn down quickly is life saving knowledge.)
(Once you have this sorted)
- practise braking firmly on a dry road or carpark and when you've got the front loaded, countersteer the bike gently. Some folks when they overcook a corner hit the brakes and shoot of the road. When in fact they could have turned the corner. Understanding you can steer while braking will give you the transition from hard on braking to turning. Be gentle with this you just want to get the idea it can be done.
- lastly you've gone to all this trouble I'd take the time to learn to brake;
- so that would be loading up the front before applying the brakes hard.
- and braking without loading up the bars, taking the weight through your legs and the seat (gripping the tank). You should be able to brake hard with relaxed arms.

For those that say don't worry about it I think you need to make a decision whether you want to be able to control your bike well and therefore have a far better chance of survival when things go wrong or not.

It seems you already made the decision.

P.S. With countersteering try pushing and pulling. I've found pulling far more effective. With the push the arm is at full extension and weaker is my guess. Logically a push-pull would be good. If you're finding the left harder it may be that your pushing on the right at the same time. This often happens with riders where they focus on the push and forget they are fighting the other arm. Both arms need to move not just one. One pushes while the other relaxes or pulls. You're steering the bike not pushing a lever.

Personally since you've decided to figure out how it all works I think you should ignore the well meaning but ignorant advice of those that say don't worry about it. Their advice is based on their lack of knowledge of never learning to do this stuff. I think if you asked every rider that took the time to learn this they'll say they're riding improved dramatically, they're ability to act when things went wrong improved dramatically as well. You'd never ask someone that had only ever riden a 125 what they recommend for riding a 1000cc bike. Likewise I wouldn't listen to the advice from riders who know nothing about the experience of using techniques of motorcycle control and haven't bothered to learn them, have never mastered them and don't have an inkling of the benefits.

That's my thoughts.

[discotex]

You're right, letters on a screen don't show my powers of mind-over-matter. Once I have fully developed these capabilities I too will be able to ride a bike without countersteering and I truly expect to be able corner like Rossi by sight alone. :rolleyes:

:lol: ok now I'm on your page

[magicmonkey]

Well, I went home down the coast road last night, added a whole hour to my ride home :) That road really is awesome for learning countersteering on, 50K's all the way and loads of corners; the wind can be a little hard to deal with sometimes but I live in welly so that's just another thing I need to learn how to handle...

I spent the first 30 minutes of the ride just observing myself countersteering until I had a better mental picture of what I was meant to be doing and then I started doing it deliberately. It's a bit odd going from leaning over and then countersteering the bike to your lean angle to countersteering and then leaning to match the angle of the bike; it took a little getting used to but after 4-5 corners it was feeling more natural. I also tried changing my line with the throttle rather than the bars a couple of times which is something I could probably do with a bit more practice on but it seems to be easy enough (bear in mind this is a 50 area around gentle bends for the most part, not 100k's round blind hairpins down a mountain!)

So, all in all the countersteering thing is starting to click, a bit more practice and I'll be using countersteering to go into a corner naturally rather than 'just leaning'. Getting to go home along the coast every day it awesome as well :)

The advice I've got from you guys is brilliant, often contradictory of course but I've been taking the advice that means something to me and using it, pretty much everyone who's contributed to this thread has had a little nugget of brilliance so thanks again guys, I'd be a much less confident rider without you lot!

And on the confidence front, the better I feel about countersteering the more confident my riding is becoming; whether it's just psychological or I really do have more control over the bike remains to be seen but either way it's doing me a lot of good :)

[MSTRS]

And on the confidence front, the better I feel about countersteering the more confident my riding is becoming; whether it's just psychological or I really do have more control over the bike remains to be seen but either way it's doing me a lot of good :)

Just wanted to comment on this bit...

Good to see you taking on board good advice, trying it out for yourself and putting it into practice.
You are getting to the stage that you are controlling the bike, rather than being along for the ride and hoping what you want to bike to do will happen. Naturally, this feeling of more complete control will lead to confidence. The danger of this is that confidence does not equal competence, so please remember that. Practice and improvement never ends.

[magicmonkey]

Just wanted to comment on this bit...

Good to see you taking on board good advice, trying it out for yourself and putting it into practice.
You are getting to the stage that you are controlling the bike, rather than being along for the ride and hoping what you want to bike to do will happen. Naturally, this feeling of more complete control will lead to confidence. The danger of this is that confidence does not equal competence, so please remember that. Practice and improvement never ends.

Nah, you're completely wrong, I'm currently the best rider in Wellington and I'll be the best in the country within the month :2thumbsup

Kidding of course ;)

Seriously though, at the moment I'm still keeping to 50 areas and my top speed so far is slightly north of 80, I know I've got a whole long way to go before I start thinking of myself as a biker, let alone feeling comfortable on 2 wheels. Still, I'm finding the practicing great fun so I'll be doing it for a while yet :)

[MSTRS]

Seriously though, at the moment I'm still keeping to 50 areas and my top speed so far is slightly north of 80

Care to elaborate? Surely you are not doing 80+ in 50 zones?

[magicmonkey]

Care to elaborate? Surely you are not doing 80+ in 50 zones?

Nah, there's a little stretch of 70 zone on the way up the Ohiro road which I've been using, it's helping me get to grips with how the bike handles at different speeds quite nicely and as you can see the whole stretch of road you know there's nothing coming the other way :)

[MSTRS]

Not wanting to sound like I'm preaching, but keep your speed appropriate to the speed limit where you are. Get it wrong, and it will hurt financially or physically. I'm no fan of the L plater's 70km thing, and it's good to familiarise yourself with different speeds and how that affects you, just make those steps small ones. And don't give the cops any reason to 'have you'...

[magicmonkey]

Not wanting to sound like I'm preaching, but keep your speed appropriate to the speed limit where you are. Get it wrong, and it will hurt financially or physically. I'm no fan of the L plater's 70km thing, and it's good to familiarise yourself with different speeds and how that affects you, just make those steps small ones. And don't give the cops any reason to 'have you'...

The 80+ was more about me not keeping an eye on the speedo than me trying to ring out 3rd gear, it's not something that happens often as I'm not really comfortable going past 70ish yet but there are bound to be slips, that was just the highest one so far. I really think that if a cop was sat behind me they'd think I was the slowest bike on the road and try to overtake me rather than pulling me over!

[MSTRS]

You have much to learn, young Padawan.

[magicmonkey]

heh, yeah, I'm totally getting that!

[CookMySock]

You'll be right bro. Just say to yourself as you get on the bike, and right before corners "steer with the bars plz".

And thats all it is - everywhere you go, just only ever steer with the bars. Within only one month it will be automatic, and in the event of an emergency to your utter amazement the bike will lay itself way the hell over and dart right around the obstacle. Watch other bikers following congratulate you then!!

Thats all. Do it everywhere until it's second nature.

Steve

[magicmonkey]

well, i rode home down the coast last night, got up early and rode in that way again this morning as well :)

That countersteering is really coming along well, I'm able to pick a line and change it mid curve (for manhole covers and the like) and I've started countersteering rather than just turning without having to tell myself to do it first which is great. It also means I can go into a corner faster, with more control and a heap more confidence. There's still a lot of work to be done and I'm still bumbling around 50 areas so maybe the term 'faster' is a bit out of place but you get the idea ;)

The wind became a bit of a problem this morning though, pretty much blew me over a couple of time and I really thought I was going to bin it coming around a corner and having about 20Ks scrubbed off by the icy blast!

[scumdog]

Some people find it easier to pull (yea - all right - settle down) rather than push. For this to work, you must pull on the opposite side to the one on which you push. Following me?

I've found that works for me - Jantar said counter-steering like this is not uncommon.

[magicmonkey]

I've found that works for me - Jantar said counter-steering like this is not uncommon.

Ah, I forgto to mention the important things I noticed on my ride this morning, maybe they'll be useful to someone else. Anyways, If I tell myself to relax my shoulders and keep my elbows in line with the rest of me I can countersteer fine, when I'm tensed up or pointing my elbows out to my sides (usually both at the same time) I cock things up...

[MSTRS]

I've found that works for me - Jantar said counter-steering like this is not uncommon.

I can see why some people do it this way. It's all that practice pulling the bourbon closer, isn't it?

[R-Soul]

And some people just dont like going round left-hand corners....

But they generally dont race NASCAR...:lol:

[R-Soul]

Shit, I love left handers, can drop the knee like a you-beaut racer. It's those right handers that freak me out, think I'm scared of putting my head into oncoming traffic or something...
Embarassing on rides eh...

Me too!! at least we have established that
a) I am not (much of) a freak :wacko:
b) It is not the physical forces that make turning one way or another more difficult (maybe to a small extent with the gyroscopic forces) :girlfight:


PHEW!

[R-Soul]

Good! I previously believed that situation could not be recovered. Well done!

Steve

I like what you say and the way you say it!. :2thumbsup


Now I have another question for you: I completely stumbled upon this effect. When I (almost) stand up on the inside foot going around long sweepers (i.e put most of my body weight on my inside foot) then the bikes stability increases a huge amount. Why? Is it because the unstable coupling between rider and bike is lower down?

This probably would be impractical on cruisers because of the body positioning....

[R-Soul]

And on the confidence front, the better I feel about countersteering the more confident my riding is becoming; whether it's just psychological or I really do have more control over the bike remains to be seen but either way it's doing me a lot of good :)

The really cool thing about counter steering is that whether you are riding a CBR 250RR or a BMW1100RT (cruise missile) you WILL the same control of your bike (at least until the damn thing comes to a stop - then you try holding up 300kg). I can personally account for this.

[MSTRS]

I like what you say and the way you say it!. :2thumbsup


Now I have another question for you: I completely stumbled upon this effect. When I (almost) stand up on the inside foot going around long sweepers (i.e put most of my body weight on my inside foot) then the bikes stability increases a huge amount. Why? Is it because the unstable coupling between rider and bike is lower down?

This probably would be impractical on cruisers because of the body positioning....

I believe it is because it allows the suspension to work better. But you should always weight the outside peg - it has the same effect of settling the bike, BUT it also tends to stand the bike up slightly (and push your body further to the inside to counteract that)

[R-Soul]

[QUOTE=MSTRS;1129473773]I believe it is because it allows the suspension to work better. QUOTE]

But why/how? I will try teh outside peg on the way home today... thanks!

[MSTRS]

It shifts your rear-most point of contact with the bike to a more forward position (and lower). Therefore there is less weight on the subframe/seat and hence the loading on the rear shock through the pivot point of the swingarm is reduced, allowing more travel in that shock.
I'm not sure this is right, but it sounds good!!

[discotex]

It shifts your rear-most point of contact with the bike to a more forward position (and lower). Therefore there is less weight on the subframe/seat and hence the loading on the rear shock through the pivot point of the swingarm is reduced, allowing more travel in that shock.
I'm not sure this is right, but it sounds good!!

It does sound good and given this is the internet who needs facts ;)

I'm sure someone with a physics degree they got off a weetbix packet will be along to correct you imminently.

[Maki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WqR_Pya3pU

Some very nice counter steering at around 1:19

[discotex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WqR_Pya3pU

Some very nice counter steering at around 1:19

I guess you could say that's still counter steering in the most literal sense of the term but it wouldn't be a helpful definition for a newbie.....

Backing it in like that is always lovely to watch but every time he's changing lean angle anywhere in that vid he/she's counter steering - not just when they back it in.

[Dirty Heathen]

Got some question to ask if thats ok did not want start a new thread so posted in here.

So I have have actually been counter steering and being aware that I am doing it rather then just doing on auto mode.

Please don't laugh if this sound stupid but I am form mx bikes so concerning is a whole different ball game.

So say I come to a left hand corner doing say 50km I push my left hand bar forward the bikes goes into the left turn with a nice lean on but all of a sudden half way through the corner I relies that i am coming close the inside of the corner and I need to adjust and go wider what do you do?.

I thought about pushing the bar left but I am guessing that wont steer me wider but instead counter steer me even closer to the edge so if I push my right hand bar forward would that just high side the bike?

Sorry if it sounds stupid but I am just going through alot of this stuff in my head before I get out on the road.

[MSTRS]

Not stupid. If your scenario happened, you would simply give a little push on the right side or the bars to ease the lean/turn-in.
Remember - push on one side to turn in that direction, push more to tighten, or push on opposite side to straighten up

[magicmonkey]

Well, after having another read through this thread and now I'm feeling a lot more comfortable with countersteering I decided to start adding a few other things into the mix on my rides this weekend.

Weighting the outside peg, while far from being second nature, is making me feel a lot more comfortable around corners, the bike just feels more planted and secure on the road. it's almost as if by forcing more weight onto the outside you're forcing the tires onto the road more and giving yourself more of a contact patch (that's right folks, I'm getting to know the lingo too!). That might not be what actually happens but it makes enough sense in my mind for me to visualise it like that so it’s good enough for me. I still need to spend a lot of time practicing this to get comfortable with it as it's a forced response at the moment but, as with the countersteering, practice will make it second nature eventually.

The road I've been riding on is great, by now I know all the corners and what speed I can comfortable take them so I've added changing lines mid curve to the mix as well. I'm being really cautious with this one as I don't want to be unpredictable if there are cars around or I can't see around the corner but when I have been doing it I've been quite surprised at how much of a change you can make to your line while keeping within the comfort zone (mine is a rather small comfort zone at the moment but it's getting there!)

The other thing I've been playing with is using the throttle to change the line, as I'm on a GN there just isn't enough acceleration to make the corner go wider (and I'm not comfortable accelerating hard while in a corner just yet) but letting off the gas will tighten it up pretty smartish, quite a bit more than I was expecting as well! So another thing I'm going to have to spend a bit of time on is learning about throttle control in corners and at higher speeds (I do a lot of riding in traffic so my slow speed throttle control gets daily work and is improving as quickly as it needs to).

I need to find myself another road as well, the coast road is great and all but I do need to have a run somewhere that I'll have to deal with the unknown again, that's probably the most important skill I'll ever have to learn!

[george formby]

Well, after having another read through this thread and now I'm feeling a lot more comfortable with countersteering I decided to start adding a few other things into the mix on my rides this weekend.

Weighting the outside peg, while far from being second nature, is making me feel a lot more comfortable around corners, the bike just feels more planted and secure on the road. it's almost as if by forcing more weight onto the outside you're forcing the tires onto the road more and giving yourself more of a contact patch (that's right folks, I'm getting to know the lingo too!). That might not be what actually happens but it makes enough sense in my mind for me to visualise it like that so it’s good enough for me. I still need to spend a lot of time practicing this to get comfortable with it as it's a forced response at the moment but, as with the countersteering, practice will make it second nature eventually.

The road I've been riding on is great, by now I know all the corners and what speed I can comfortable take them so I've added changing lines mid curve to the mix as well. I'm being really cautious with this one as I don't want to be unpredictable if there are cars around or I can't see around the corner but when I have been doing it I've been quite surprised at how much of a change you can make to your line while keeping within the comfort zone (mine is a rather small comfort zone at the moment but it's getting there!)

The other thing I've been playing with is using the throttle to change the line, as I'm on a GN there just isn't enough acceleration to make the corner go wider (and I'm not comfortable accelerating hard while in a corner just yet) but letting off the gas will tighten it up pretty smartish, quite a bit more than I was expecting as well! So another thing I'm going to have to spend a bit of time on is learning about throttle control in corners and at higher speeds (I do a lot of riding in traffic so my slow speed throttle control gets daily work and is improving as quickly as it needs to).

I need to find myself another road as well, the coast road is great and all but I do need to have a run somewhere that I'll have to deal with the unknown again, that's probably the most important skill I'll ever have to learn!

Good on ya! Reads like your noticing when you have the bike nicely balanced & under control with the throttle & how it will react to your input. May you enjoy many years of such pleasures.

[george formby]

[QUOTE=magicmonkey;1129481364]

Weighting the outside peg, while far from being second nature, is making me feel a lot more comfortable around corners, the bike just feels more planted and secure on the road. it's almost as if by forcing more weight onto the outside you're forcing the tires onto the road more and giving yourself more of a contact patch (that's right folks, I'm getting to know the lingo too!). That might not be what actually happens but it makes enough sense in my mind for me to visualise it like that so it’s good enough for me. I still need to spend a lot of time practicing this to get comfortable with it as it's a forced response at the moment but, as with the countersteering, practice will make it second nature eventually.

The other thing I've been playing with is using the throttle to change the line, as I'm on a GN there just isn't enough acceleration to make the corner go wider (and I'm not comfortable accelerating hard while in a corner just yet) but letting off the gas will tighten it up pretty smartish, quite a bit more than I was expecting as well! So another thing I'm going to have to spend a bit of time on is learning about throttle control in corners and at higher speeds (I do a lot of riding in traffic so my slow speed throttle control gets daily work and is improving as quickly as it needs to).


Good on ya! Reads like your noticing when you have the bike nicely balanced & under control with the throttle & how it will react to your input. May you enjoy many years of such pleasures.

[magicmonkey]

Good on ya! Reads like your noticing when you have the bike nicely balanced & under control with the throttle & how it will react to your input. May you enjoy many years of such pleasures.

yeah, I'm starting to have some really good fun on the bike now and pushing myself just a little bit as well. Quite often I'll be pottering along thinking "this is why I got a bike!" :)

[discotex]

yeah, I'm starting to have some really good fun on the bike now and pushing myself just a little bit as well. Quite often I'll be pottering along thinking "this is why I got a bike!" :)

On ya.... But one thing.....

You're moving into the dangerous phase where you're good enough to be travelling at speed a lot (still within the speed limit mind) but your skills aren't actually as honed as you think they are - i.e. they're still not automatic in a crisis.

There's no other way though this period except to ride more and build up kms (except perhaps a beginner group at a trackday). Just remember to keep your ego in check and not get too cocky or complacent and you'll be fine.

[magicmonkey]

You're moving into the dangerous phase ...

That's exactly what I though when I was out yesterday! I decided that it would be best to decide exactly how I was going to push myself before actually pushing myself and sticking to the plan, hopefully with a bit of discipline I'll come outof the learners phase without a scratch; hopefully!

[george formby]

That's exactly what I though when I was out yesterday! I decided that it would be best to decide exactly how I was going to push myself before actually pushing myself and sticking to the plan, hopefully with a bit of discipline I'll come outof the learners phase without a scratch; hopefully!

Focus on riding well, not quickly. Observation, anticipation, balance, control, lines etc. Put all your good road riding skills together & you end up travelling safely & relatively quickly as a bonus. If you decide to try & find the bikes or your limits, you probably will. Save that for your trackday.
I wish their had been forums when I started, but then again I would have had to invent a computer to use them.:scooter:

[p.dath]

Weighting the outside peg, while far from being second nature, is making me feel a lot more comfortable around corners, the bike just feels more planted and secure on the road. it's almost as if by forcing more weight onto the outside you're forcing the tires onto the road more and giving yourself more of a contact patch (that's right folks, I'm getting to know the lingo too!).


Keith Code talks about this in his books (Twist II from memory). I may not be recalling this 100% - but the jist is right.

As you enter a corner the countersteering is done by opposing the gyroscopic effect of the FRONT wheel.
Once you are leaned over countersteering is done by opposing the gyroscopic effect of the REAR wheel.

Actually it think it was a ratio, but I don't want to turn this into an essay.

So he says going into a corner lean/push/pull on the handlebars. However once actually leaned over and *in the corner* you countersteer more effectively by leaning on the outside footpeg. You can still countersteer using the "bars", but the footpegs become more effective.

This exceeds my current skill level. I've had mixed results personally.


...
The other thing I've been playing with is using the throttle to change the line, as I'm on a GN there just isn't enough acceleration to make the corner go wider (and I'm not comfortable accelerating hard while in a corner just yet) but letting off the gas will tighten it up pretty smartish, quite a bit more than I was expecting as well! So another thing I'm going to have to spend a bit of time on is learning about throttle control in corners and at higher speeds (I do a lot of riding in traffic so my slow speed throttle control gets daily work and is improving as quickly as it needs to).


This is also covered in the Keith Code books. Your two tyres make a contact patch on the road.
While mid-corner the "perfect" ratio "on the road" is to have 40% of your total contact patch with the front tyre, and 60% with the rear tyre. This is achieved by applying 0.1G to 0.2G of acceleration (that means gentle acceleration).

Another reason for not messing with the throttle mid-corner is that it unsettles the suspension. If you suddenly close the throttle you load up the front suspension and make the front of the bike dive.

This is also why people get into trouble when they close the throttle on a corner. The instantly reduce their rear contact patch, and at the same time reduce their traction. Also because the countersteering effect is more prominent with the rear tyre at this point, you also reduce your "steering" ability, which in turn stands the bike up, etc.


So my suggestion mid-corner - you want smooth light acceleration. Resist the urge to close the throttle if something goes bad.



For comparison, on the track he says the perfect ratio is between 40/60 and 30/70 (aka, on the track you can apply a little more more acceleration mid-corner).
But don't mess with the ratio on the road.

[magicmonkey]

Keith Code talks about this in his books (Twist II from memory). I may not be recalling this 100% - but the jist is right.

As you enter a corner the countersteering is done by opposing the gyroscopic effect of the FRONT wheel.
Once you are leaned over countersteering is done by opposing the gyroscopic effect of the REAR wheel.

Actually it think it was a ratio, but I don't want to turn this into an essay.

So he says going into a corner lean/push/pull on the handlebars. However once actually leaned over and *in the corner* you countersteer more effectively by leaning on the outside footpeg. You can still countersteer using the "bars", but the footpegs become more effective.

This exceeds my current skill level. I've had mixed results personally.



This is also covered in the Keith Code books. Your two tyres make a contact patch on the road.
While mid-corner the "perfect" ratio "on the road" is to have 40% of your total contact patch with the front tyre, and 60% with the rear tyre. This is achieved by applying 0.1G to 0.2G of acceleration (that means gentle acceleration).

Another reason for not messing with the throttle mid-corner is that it unsettles the suspension. If you suddenly close the throttle you load up the front suspension and make the front of the bike dive.

This is also why people get into trouble when they close the throttle on a corner. The instantly reduce their rear contact patch, and at the same time reduce their traction. Also because the countersteering effect is more prominent with the rear tyre at this point, you also reduce your "steering" ability, which in turn stands the bike up, etc.


So my suggestion mid-corner - you want smooth light acceleration. Resist the urge to close the throttle if something goes bad.



For comparison, on the track he says the perfect ratio is between 40/60 and 30/70 (aka, on the track you can apply a little more more acceleration mid-corner).
But don't mess with the ratio on the road.

eek! While I'm sure that'll come in very useful at some point in the future I think you've gone way beyond my skill level there, I've not even got 1000K's in yet!

I have got a copy of the Twist of the Wrist II book which I've had a bit of a browse through and decided not to read again until I'm more comfortable with the basics ...

[MSTRS]

The thing about technical advice (here, TOTW, etc) is most of us don't need to understand it to know that it works. We've (all) been there and done the practising, experimenting bit, often with painful results, and gradually learned what works and what doesn't. Even though you can get the answers as to what to do and when, you don't need to work out why. Unless you are an "engineer", of course!!

[R-Soul]

That's exactly what I though when I was out yesterday! I decided that it would be best to decide exactly how I was going to push myself before actually pushing myself and sticking to the plan, hopefully with a bit of discipline I'll come outof the learners phase without a scratch; hopefully!

No - you have it wrong- you never come out of the "learners phase", and the day that you feel "confident" riding anywhere close to you or your bikes' limits is a REAALLLY bad day. In fact even just riding in traffic in general. Never lose the respect, or get overconfident. And never think that you know it all. It can turn around and bite you in the ass so fast that your head will spin.

When you lose the respect (fear?), then you are not as aware.

If you ever feel too confident on your bike, do yourself a favour - search for "bike crashes" on Youtube. You will see the most skilled riders - that are pushing the envelope or not- get into lethal situations so fast that even their abilities mean nothing. I know it sounds depressing - but it is actually the reality that we need to prevent at least the plain dumb accidents. And another thing- if you are going to be screwing around pulling wheelies/stoppies etc, for God's sake do it on a track or abandoned airfield.

[R-Soul]

The thing about technical advice (here, TOTW, etc) is most of us don't need to understand it to know that it works. We've (all) been there and done the practising, experimenting bit, often with painful results, and gradually learned what works and what doesn't. Even though you can get the answers as to what to do and when, you don't need to work out why. Unless you are an "engineer", of course!!

And just what is wrong with engineers? :whistle:

[MSTRS]

And just what is wrong with engineers? :whistle:

Nothing. Nothing at all. Wonderful people. Salt of the earth. A bit analytical. Perhaps. But nice people, all the same. Some of my best friends are engineers.
Was that enough?

[Fluffy Cat]

If you are rationalizing it.... consciously bringing it to the fore in your mind...whilst doing it, you are missing the point. It has to come naturally. Take your time ride lots, do some track time(does not matter what bike you have).
It has to be and is intuitive. If it isn't ride the bike some more. The code books are fun/good but not as good as doing it. Learnt a lot doing track time, watching the likes of Andrew Stroud etc (dont get me wrong i wasn't following him, was getting passed!).

[Maki]

This is also covered in the Keith Code books. Your two tyres make a contact patch on the road.
While mid-corner the "perfect" ratio "on the road" is to have 40% of your total contact patch with the front tyre, and 60% with the rear tyre. This is achieved by applying 0.1G to 0.2G of acceleration (that means gentle acceleration).



That is very interesting. I find cornering feels very wish washy until I apply a bit of throttle. The the bike feels a lot more planted and secure then...

[MSTRS]

That is very interesting. I find cornering feels very wish washy until I apply a bit of throttle. The the bike feels a lot more planted and secure then...

Exactly. P.dath/Keith Code explained why...

[R-Soul]

Nothing. Nothing at all. Wonderful people. Salt of the earth. A bit analytical. Perhaps. But nice people, all the same. Some of my best friends are engineers.
Was that enough?

hehe... just... ;)

[Mystic13]

Got some question to ask if thats ok did not want start a new thread so posted in here.

So say I come to a left hand corner doing say 50km I push my left hand bar forward the bikes goes into the left turn with a nice lean on but all of a sudden half way through the corner I relies that i am coming close the inside of the corner and I need to adjust and go wider what do you do?.

I thought about pushing the bar left but I am guessing that wont steer me wider but instead counter steer me even closer to the edge so if I push my right hand bar forward would that just high side the bike?

Sorry if it sounds stupid but I am just going through alot of this stuff in my head before I get out on the road.

- Yep pushing the left bar will pull you in more.
- Pushing the right a little will move the bike out a fraction.

If you've got counter steering sussed then practise changing lines through a corner. Pick out marks in your line and ride inside or outside of them. You'll be surprised how much you can steer a bike through the corner.

Otherwise you can also wind the throttle on and that will pull you out from the corner.

Weighting the outside peg does stabilise the bike and make it feel better. I wouldn't use weighting pegs to steer the bike though its far slower than steering with the front when leaned over.

[Mystic13]

I need to find myself another road as well, the coast road is great and all but I do need to have a run somewhere that I'll have to deal with the unknown again, that's probably the most important skill I'll ever have to learn!


I was down in Wellington a year ago working for a few weeks and stayed at the top end of Cuba Street. My routine was to ride the south coast road, heading in past the sculptures and container house etc, then the South Coast Road get a coffee at Lyall Bay, ride the South Coast road and back into town to work maybe a km from where I stayed.

I was surprised that road was so empty. Just the best damned way to start the day though.

[magicmonkey]

I was down in Wellington a year ago working for a few weeks and stayed at the top end of Cuba Street. My routine was to ride the south coast road, heading in past the sculptures and container house etc, then the South Coast Road get a coffee at Lyall Bay, ride the South Coast road and back into town to work maybe a km from where I stayed.

I was surprised that road was so empty. Just the best damned way to start the day though.

Yup, that's the road I'm using at the moment, had an awesome ride this morning as there was very little wind for the first time, just a shame about the ice though (and the bloody cyclists who think they are allowed to use the entire lane, wankers!)

[Mystic13]

Yep, I know about the cyclists. I live next to Cornwall Park / One Tree Hill. I came up behind a bunch of cyclists that were holding up cars and me. They rode so they covered both sides of the road.

When a car came towards them they moved over and then immediately move out again leaving a bunch of incredibly pissed off motorists and one rider behind them. That's just sheer rudeness. Having said that I think they also get cars that pass right next to them. 2 wrongs don't make a right though.

Now if they had rego's I'd put a call through to police.

[magicmonkey]

Well, things are really starting to come together :) My goal in starting out with this whole countersteering malarkey was to make it second nature which seems to have happened. I was coming around a blind corner this morning and spotted a patch of dangerous looking gravel smack bang in the middle of the line I'd chosen, I didn't have time to think about how to get around it so the reactions kicked in and I countersteered myself over a bit further and made my way around it. Not exactly a masterclass in countersteering by any stretch of the imagination but it does mean that I've succeeded in making countersteering second nature, if I hadn't spent the time making it second nature there is no way I would have avoided the gravel, I probably would have managed to stay upright but it definitely wouldn't have been an enjoyable experience ;)

So, I've a lot to learn yet, the throttle control needs a lot of work, weighting the outside peg only happens when I'm thinking about it, my comfort zone needs to expand a bit as it's so far within the bikes limits as to be a joke; but, I've got the very basic foundations sorted and considering I've not been riding very long I'm pretty happy with that :2thumbsup

You guys on here have been brilliant, sensible advice and some piss taking, exactly what the modern day noob needs :)

[MSTRS]

Good to hear. The base skills are most important. Everything else follows on from that. You are well on your way now. I still say you should spent a bit of time with a mentor (or any experienced rider that you can trust). You will be surprised at how much you can learn, when you aren't 'playing' about on your own.

[discotex]

Well, things are really starting to come together :)
...
You guys on here have been brilliant, sensible advice and some piss taking, exactly what the modern day noob needs :)

Good to hear it's all coming along! Congrats on using the skills.


Good to hear. The base skills are most important. Everything else follows on from that. You are well on your way now. I still say you should spent a bit of time with a mentor (or any experienced rider that you can trust). You will be surprised at how much you can learn, when you aren't 'playing' about on your own.

I agree but...

Some people do learn best on their own and have the level of objective (self) critisism required (both to work out what is crap advice and what is and isn't working).

If magicmonkey is like me they'll be able to read advice here and translate the words into action no worries.

From what they've said that sounds like that might be the case. Of course this kinda of person can fall into the trap of over-analysing things and missing the forest for the trees. Sometimes another perspective makes all the difference.

[magicmonkey]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread rather than start another one on what is pretty much the same subject...

I've noticed that my left arm seems to be constantly fighting against me when I'm countersteering, there still seems to be some part of my brain that just doesn't like the idea of turning the 'wrong' way around those corners. So, I decided last night that my left arm would just rest on the grip and have no input what-so-ever. It kind of worked, the left arm would try and get itself involved again without my conscious input but I stopped any input when I noticed it (generally after a gear change, it just seems to want to stay holding the bar...) so the ride was reasonably successful.

The ride was pretty eventful as well, found some idiot reversing out of a space without looking while I was leaned over in a corner, he wound up right in my path and blocked any escape route on my side of the road while stopping me from seeing if there was anything coming (damned SUV drivers!) so, got the thing upright and slammed on the front brakes, came to a stop about half a meter away from the fool and already had it in first to hit the gas and go round him (by this time I could pass him on the left, he was backing out pretty fast for someone who hadn't bothered looking!) I pottered off with an extended blast on the horn, a chest full of thumping and a single thought in my brain; "thank fuck I spent all that time practicing emergency braking in corners!". A bit of time putting the work in seems to have saved my skin here, I'm a cautious learner and now I know why ;)

I saw another biker on the way home, he was pushing his SYM-Wolf 150 up the road so I stopped off and offered some help, it was a clutch problem though and nothing that could be fixed on the side of the road with my little GN toolkit, still, had a nice chat about bikes and the bike shops around Wellington and departed...

As I was coming to park up, which needs full right lock and feathering the clutch in second, I managed to nearly drop the bike, that was bloody scary! I had the thing over at a 45 degree angle, just managing to hold on to it and somehow managed to pull it back up, god knows how as I would have thought that weight would have been beyond me, but I managed it. Made me realise I need to be a bit more careful with the slow speed stuff, maybe hit up a bit more car park practice, joy :shutup:

[vifferman]

Good work, Mr Monkey! :niceone:


As I was coming to park up, which needs full right lock and feathering the clutch in second, I managed to nearly drop the bike, that was bloody scary! I had the thing over at a 45 degree angle, just managing to hold on to it and somehow managed to pull it back up, god knows how as I would have thought that weight would have been beyond me, but I managed it.
Didja have your foot down?

[magicmonkey]

Good work, Mr Monkey! :niceone:

Didja have your foot down?

not when it started falling but it went down pretty quick once I realised I wasn't going to hold the bike up without it!

[vifferman]

not when it started falling but it went down pretty quick once I realised I wasn't going to hold the bike up without it!
It doesn't mean you're gonna look like a noob if you stick the inside leg out ready to catch the bike; it's easier if it's already out than trapped underneath if you're caught out.
Heck - I saw an "exerienced" biker on a Triumph Rocket III paddling his bike along to park it. :blink: (He did look like a noob. Or perhaps like he was riding someone else's bike...)

However, apart from sticking a foot out, motocross style, when doing slow-speed turns on dodgy surfaces, it's generally better to keep your feet on the pegs as it gives you more control over the bike's balance and attitude.

[magicmonkey]

It doesn't mean you're gonna look like a noob if you stick the inside leg out ready to catch the bike; it's easier if it's already out than trapped underneath if you're caught out.
Heck - I saw an "exerienced" biker on a Triumph Rocket III paddling his bike along to park it. :blink: (He did look like a noob. Or perhaps like he was riding someone else's bike...)

However, apart from sticking a foot out, motocross style, when doing slow-speed turns on dodgy surfaces, it's generally better to keep your feet on the pegs as it gives you more control over the bike's balance and attitude.

Well, I'm not too fussed about looking like a noob, I ride around brandishing my L plates at unsuspecting drivers, it's even at a jaunty angle so it's more likely to get noticed!

I always though the general rule was that you put your feet up as soon as you got moving and kept it there until you stopped. Looks like I'm learning new things every day still!

The surface there is a real pain in the arse, over a gutter channel with a huge gap and then onto a really gravelly uneven tarmac which has to be done at a reasonable speed as there are always people behind you on that hill and it's just round a corner which is hard to see around...

[R-Soul]

Well, things are really starting to come together :) My goal in starting out with this whole countersteering malarkey was to make it second nature which seems to have happened. I was coming around a blind corner this morning and spotted a patch of dangerous looking gravel smack bang in the middle of the line I'd chosen, I didn't have time to think about how to get around it so the reactions kicked in and I countersteered myself over a bit further and made my way around it. Not exactly a masterclass in countersteering by any stretch of the imagination but it does mean that I've succeeded in making countersteering second nature, if I hadn't spent the time making it second nature there is no way I would have avoided the gravel, I probably would have managed to stay upright but it definitely wouldn't have been an enjoyable experience ;)

So, I've a lot to learn yet, the throttle control needs a lot of work, weighting the outside peg only happens when I'm thinking about it, my comfort zone needs to expand a bit as it's so far within the bikes limits as to be a joke; but, I've got the very basic foundations sorted and considering I've not been riding very long I'm pretty happy with that :2thumbsup

You guys on here have been brilliant, sensible advice and some piss taking, exactly what the modern day noob needs :)


In the book "Total control" which discusses street riding techniques, teh author syas that the best way of countersteering is pushing with inside hand, and completely relaxing outside hand. This makes for very quick turning though, so don't go off on the inside.

Also, start turning as late as you can into a corner, so that you can see the most of teh corner that you can before you go into it. Also, turn quicker to start with, and smooth out the rest. this is because turning quickly while you are vertical is more handleable than adjusting quickly when you are over to the side and your suspension is not working as well.

Also look as far into the corner as you can. And get your body's centreline inside of the bike's centreline.

There, now you dont have to buy the book....

[Maki]

In the book "Total control" which discusses street riding techniques, teh author syas that the best way of countersteering is pushing with inside hand, and completely relaxing outside hand. This makes for very quick turning though, so don't go off on the inside.

Also, start turning as late as you can into a corner, so that you can see the most of teh corner that you can before you go into it. Also, turn quicker to start with, and smooth out the rest. this is because turning quickly while you are vertical is more handleable than adjusting quickly when you are over to the side and your suspension is not working as well.

Also look as far into the corner as you can. And get your body's centreline inside of the bike's centreline.

There, now you dont have to buy the book....

That's good advice. You always want to remember to use the bars for their intended purpose, to control the bike. Not to steady your body. You learn this quickly in windy Wellington.

[R-Soul]

That's good advice. You always want to remember to use the bars for their intended purpose, to control the bike. Not to steady your body. You learn this quickly in windy Wellington.

Yup that was the gist of it - you use your legs and back to hold your bodyweight, not your arms, since it tenses them up and makes control a lot more difficult.

[magicmonkey]

Yup that was the gist of it - you use your legs and back to hold your bodyweight, not your arms, since it tenses them up and makes control a lot more difficult.

heh, that's a bloody hard one to learn! I've been telling myself about this every time I get on a bike, every time I notice myself doing it and every time I do something which might lead me to grab the bars; I still haven't quite got the hang of it but I'm getting there :s

[CookMySock]

heh, that's a bloody hard one to learn! I've been telling myself about this every time I get on a bike, every time I notice myself doing it and every time I do something which might lead me to grab the bars; I still haven't quite got the hang of it but I'm getting there :sIt is. You don't have to ride that way all the time, but if you plan to tip in deeply then try to remove the weight off the bars, slide your arse back, steer with your wrists or thumbs.. Notice the bike is nice and stable once leaned way over.

Steve

[R-Soul]

It is. You don't have to ride that way all the time, but if you plan to tip in deeply then try to remove the weight off the bars, slide your arse back, steer with your wrists or thumbs.. Notice the bike is nice and stable once leaned way over.

Steve

Ultimately the bike is better engineered than the rider to control itself...

:whistle:

[R-Soul]

...weighting the outside peg only happens when I'm thinking about it...



I must be honest that weighting teh outside peg makes no sense to me at all and I am not sure is correct. This is why: If you weight the inside peg, you get just as much stability as teh outside peg, and your weight is already naturally on the inside peg if your body centreline is inside of the bike's centreline (And I mean really push hard down on the peg to stabilise it). By transferring weight to the outside peg, you force the bike to lean over inwards- not what you want, since the bike performs better suspension-wise and has more grip when in a more upright position.

I do a long sweeping curve onto the mortorway (Onewa Rd, North Shore) at speed every day, and have been experiementing on this bend with weighting, and it just makes so much more sense having weight on the inside peg.

I will check it up in that book "Total Control" as well.

Any comments from other riders out there?

[p.dath]

I must be honest that weighting teh outside peg makes no sense to me at all and I am not sure is correct.

It's like the counter-balancing thing, but the opposite. It is discussed in the Twist of the Wrist books by Keith Code. I can't recall the reason why any more, but I do recall it saying to put weight on the outside peg while cornering.

It will probably have something to do with opposing forces or something.

I don't find it makes much difference myself. I think it has a greater effect at track speed. Shifting your bodies weight or even just lifting an arse cheek while cornering has a bigger effect.

[R-Soul]

It's like the counter-balancing thing, but the opposite. It is discussed in the Twist of the Wrist books by Keith Code. I can't recall the reason why any more, but I do recall it saying to put weight on the outside peg while cornering.

It will probably have something to do with opposing forces or something.

I don't find it makes much difference myself. I think it has a greater effect at track speed. Shifting your bodies weight or even just lifting an arse cheek while cornering has a bigger effect.

Sure, moving your body's centreline to the inside is always going to make you turn more, but I cannot reconcile this effect with putting your bodyweight on the outside peg.

This is because you would have to partially straighten your outside leg while moving to the opposite side, and thereby cause the bike to lean over more - which you dont want to do. And I get the same stabilising effect with weight on inside peg and its much easier to accomplish, so why do it?

[p.dath]

Sure, moving your body's centreline to the inside is always going to make you turn more, but I cannot reconcile this effect with putting your bodyweight on the outside peg.

I'll try and look it up tonight in Twist of the Wrist for you.

[R-Soul]

It's like the counter-balancing thing, but the opposite. It is discussed in the Twist of the Wrist books by Keith Code. I can't recall the reason why any more, but I do recall it saying to put weight on the outside peg while cornering.

It will probably have something to do with opposing forces or something.

I don't find it makes much difference myself. I think it has a greater effect at track speed. Shifting your bodies weight or even just lifting an arse cheek while cornering has a bigger effect.

Check this link - from the Kevin Schwanz Suzuki school
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/122_0608_kevin_schwantz_school_track_tips/index.html

Check the points 12 and 13 specifically.

So this means that weighting teh inside peg is Ok going into the corner - when your body wight is on that side anyway. Makes more sense.

For dirt bikes and motocross you weight the outside peg -
see this link:

http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/me2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=3749EA75A09D48E79C3F3095D73E4646

But this is because you want the MX bike to lean in a corner for motocross and you want you body to remain upright through the corner and the bike to move under you. This is also explained in the Total Control book. I think it is because the suspension on MX bikes has so much more travel, and traction is not ultimately limited by the suspension, but more by the ground surface. But I am not sure- need to read that part again...

But for street bikes you want the bike to stay as upright as possible for the suspension to function better for better traction.

[R-Soul]

I'll try and look it up tonight in Twist of the Wrist for you.

thansk- cool :headbang:

[R-Soul]

check out this webiste-

http://www.megarider.com/Articles/survival.html

While I have not read their literature, just the site itself makes a lot of sense safety wise.

[MSTRS]

I don't follow your reasoning, Mr Sole...
Weighting the outside peg settles the bike in two ways. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction. First, because the rider pushes on the outside peg, their body is naturally pushed the other way, therefore increasing the body's mass towards the inside of the bike and assisting with rider lean. Secondly, the bike's suspension works better when it is not under so much compression load...ie the bike will stand up slightly, taking the load off the shocks.
The rider being further off towards the inside counteracts the lesser lean of the bike.
The end result is that the bike turns smoother and feels more planted.

[R-Soul]

I don't follow your reasoning, Mr Sole...
Weighting the outside peg settles the bike in two ways. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction. First, because the rider pushes on the outside peg, their body is naturally pushed the other way, therefore increasing the body's mass towards the inside of the bike and assisting with rider lean. .

When you look at the practical implentation of what you are saying, it makes sense to rather load the inside peg.

When you push on the outsuide peg, you dont push inwardly, you push upwardly. The bike happens to be leaning inwardly,so pushing upwardly means you are effectively moving your body inwardly (although you dont really want it high up, you just want your body's centre of mass inside the bikes centre line).

You get the same inward pushing effect by pushing down on the inside peg. The difference is that when you push on the outside peg, you straighten your leg more as its further away, forcing the bike to lean more (as you bum and body is on the other side of the bike). When the bike is leaned over more, its suspension does not work as well as if it is upright.

It probably is all down to what feels more comnfotable for the rider, and the style of the bike.


Secondly, the bike's suspension works better when it is not under so much compression load...ie the bike will stand up slightly, taking the load off the shocks.
The rider being further off towards the inside counteracts the lesser lean of the bike.

The mass on the bike remains the same and the suspension loading remains the same, albeit at different angles because of the geometries involved.

When you look at the bike from the side, the pegs are equidistant from the wheels and should have an equal effect on the suspension (leverage-wise) regardless of which side the weight is on.

The only thing I can think of is that the most rigid connection or coupling between the rider and bike is brought to a lower level and made more stable. And in such a case the lower peg is the inside one again (although this should not make much difference at all). The centre of mass of the rider remains as is, as the rider's position does not change from when his feet are on the pegs normally, to when his feet are pushing hard on the pegs.

My own prefernce is for the inside peg as I have shorter legs, but it may be more comfortable on the outside peg for other riders or different bike styles (eg, sports v cruiser).


The end result is that the bike turns smoother and feels more planted


It does so with the weight on the inside or outside peg.

[Dan Mapp]

This thread is getting way too technical.

Just ride, have fun, don't think too much about what you're doing...focus your energy being aware of your surroundings.

It's incredible...bikes go round corners, regardless if you're focused on counter steering or not.

What he said

[Dan Mapp]

They do, until its' rider gets a bad fright, and then "the bike" stands itself upright and leaves the road, killing its rider. Obviously, this is a problem.

There is no place on the road for riders who can't instantly and decisively take evasive action in an emergency.

Steve

What a knob

[R-Soul]

What a knob

No he is right - if you have countersteering ingrained, you can react in an emergency, not rely on your fright reaction to move your weight or anything else to teh correct side of teh bike.


As far as turning goes, moving your weight around has about 20% of the effectiveness of countersteering. ESPECIALLY in emergencies when you are freezing up.

Having the RIGHT reflexes and techniques ingrained is absolutely critical - and I can attest that bikes dont just "go round corners, regardless if you're focused on counter steering or not".

I was involved in two relatively serious accidents before I learnt countersteering - which could have been avoided had I known about it- because nobody had mentioned it to me as a technique, and because I had not bothered to "think too much".

To quote the Megarider website:

"There are six main survival skills a rider needs to avoid/survive about 95% of all motorcycle crashes. This 95% of crashes encompasses virtually all of the life-threatening accidents.

While some of the skills are relatively sophisticated, they are not beyond the learning ability of novice riders.

The skills and their related crashes are:

CRASH and SKILL

Collision with turning car:

Direction perspective,
manoeuvre anticipation,
crash survival,
countersteering,
risk management,
emergency braking.

Failure to Negotiate Corner:

Direction perspective,
emergency braking,
crash survival.

[theres hould be countersteering here too imo]

Head-On Collision

Risk management,
direction perspective,
emergency braking,
crash survival,
countersteering. "


You go right ahead with your hippie-free-love-ideas-of-bikes-just-going-around-corners-as-part-of-the-universe thinking. And hopefully you'll make it through your first crash to come back and figure it out properly.

[MSTRS]

When the bike is leaned over more, its suspension does not work as well as if it is upright.


Which was my point. To me, weighting the outside peg will slightly decrease the lean angle of the bike, and increase the amount the rider's body leans in.
Simply put, bikes turn by leaning (forget the countersteering stuff...that just initiates the lean), but are most stable when upright. Peg weighting is an attempt to find a balance between the two.

[R-Soul]

Which was my point. To me, weighting the outside peg will slightly decrease the lean angle of the bike, and increase the amount the rider's body leans in.
Simply put, bikes turn by leaning (forget the countersteering stuff...that just initiates the lean), but are most stable when upright. Peg weighting is an attempt to find a balance between the two.

I understand that you are saying that weighting the outside peg leverages the bike upright. Which does make sense. But I think that that effect is negligible when you look at the short distance of the lever, and the weight of the bike that you are trying to leverage. And the same effect can be gained by simply countersteering the bike to a more upright position, while keeping your bodyweight as inside as you can.

I reckon (just my opinion) that better performance gains are to be had by getting your body weight further inside over and lower without straightening your outside leg. This also allows the bike to stand up straighter as your body weight provides more inwards acceleration against the centripetal corners during cornering if it is more inwards.

But like I say, I just felt uncomfortable on the outisde peg and had to lean the bike in more than I would have had to otherwse. Maybe it is just a matter of preference.

[Dan Mapp]

No he is right - if you have countersteering ingrained, you can react in an emergency, not rely on your fright reaction to move your weight or anything else to teh correct side of teh bike.


As far as turning goes, moving your weight around has about 20% of the effectiveness of countersteering. ESPECIALLY in emergencies when you are freezing up.

Having the RIGHT reflexes and techniques ingrained is absolutely critical - and I can attest that bikes dont just "go round corners, regardless if you're focused on counter steering or not".

I was involved in two relatively serious accidents before I learnt countersteering - which could have been avoided had I known about it- because nobody had mentioned it to me as a technique, and because I had not bothered to "think too much".

To quote the Megarider website:

"There are six main survival skills a rider needs to avoid/survive about 95% of all motorcycle crashes. This 95% of crashes encompasses virtually all of the life-threatening accidents.

While some of the skills are relatively sophisticated, they are not beyond the learning ability of novice riders.

The skills and their related crashes are:

CRASH and SKILL

Collision with turning car:

Direction perspective,
manoeuvre anticipation,
crash survival,
countersteering,
risk management,
emergency braking.

Failure to Negotiate Corner:

Direction perspective,
emergency braking,
crash survival.

[theres hould be countersteering here too imo]

Head-On Collision

Risk management,
direction perspective,
emergency braking,
crash survival,
countersteering. "


You go right ahead with your hippie-free-love-ideas-of-bikes-just-going-around-corners-as-part-of-the-universe thinking. And hopefully you'll make it through your first crash to come back and figure it out properly.

I didn,t say he was not right. (as far as counter steering went) It was his holy than now attitude in telling people they have no right to be on the road if they don't have a one or another skills he thinks they should have.

[MSTRS]

I understand that you are saying that weighting the outside peg leverages the bike upright. Which does make sense. But I think that that effect is negligible when you look at the short distance of the lever, and the weight of the bike that you are trying to leverage. And the same effect can be gained by simply countersteering the bike to a more upright position, while keeping your bodyweight as inside as you can.

I reckon (just my opinion) that better performance gains are to be had by getting your body weight further inside over and lower without straightening your outside leg. This also allows the bike to stand up straighter as your body weight provides more inwards acceleration against the centripetal corners during cornering if it is more inwards.

But like I say, I just felt uncomfortable on the outisde peg and had to lean the bike in more than I would have had to otherwse. Maybe it is just a matter of preference.

You are quite correct. Add a bit of peg-weighting, and the whole process becomes just that little bit smoother and stable. Everything I've ever read etc on the weighting subject has been for the outside. If the inside peg works for you, go for it, I guess. As long as you/bike are working together, and you are cornering safely and smoothly, I guess it's the riders choice??

[magicmonkey]

The mass on the bike remains the same and the suspension loading remains the same, albeit at different angles because of the geometries involved ...

You wind up with your legs taking some of the motion and therefore not transferring as much motion to your upper body, which is good as the upper body can act like an upside down pendulum at extremes but at slow speeds or few bumps it means les of the mass of the bike+rider is shaking, therefore better stability...

That's a paraphrasing of some keith code stuff rather than anything I've found out on my own. I've not really had a chance to try it out for myself since reading it but considering the source I'd say it was pretty spot on...

[CookMySock]

Weighting the outside peg settles the bike in two ways. [....] First, because the rider pushes on the outside peg, their body is naturally pushed the other way, therefore increasing the body's mass towards the inside of the bike and assisting with rider lean. Secondly, the bike's suspension works better when it is not under so much compression load...ie the bike will stand up slightly, taking the load off the shocks.
The rider being further off towards the inside counteracts the lesser lean of the bike.
The end result is that the bike turns smoother and feels more planted.That is an excellent description. I have been struggling to put that into words, but thats pretty much my feelings on it exactly.


When you push on the outsuide peg, you dont push inwardly, you push upwardly. The bike happens to be leaning inwardly,so pushing upwardly means you are effectively moving your body inwardly (although you dont really want it high up, you just want your body's centre of mass inside the bikes centre line).The idea is that it puts the rider in a better posture, and moves his body weight towards the inside of the turn.


It does so with the weight on the inside or outside peg.I agree completely. Weight on either peg doesn't really cause an effect on the bike. The effect gained is the moving of the rider mass - towards the inside.


Sure, moving your body's centreline to the inside is always going to make you turn more, but I cannot reconcile this effect with putting your bodyweight on the outside peg.Try it. Setting up before a left-hand corner - lift weight off seat and put weight on right footpeg - note where your body moves. Bike tilts right, body goes left, bike goes straight ahead like > , now MAINTAIN this posture and countersteer into the corner. Take care not to sit upright as you roll in.


This is because you would have to partially straighten your outside leg while moving to the opposite side, and thereby cause the bike to lean over more - which you dont want to do. And I get the same stabilising effect with weight on inside peg and its much easier to accomplish, so why do it?Before you roll in, you must tilt the bike the opposite way. If you don't, the bike will begin to corner early.

Basically, approaching any corner, IF you are going to weightshift, then the bike will temporarily be leaning the wrong way. You can just lift your arse up and plant it elsewere, or slide and weight the outside peg, or whatever spanks your monkey, but there will be some opposite lean and some opposite bar pressure, all changing to temporary positive bar pressure and positive lean once you are established in the turn.. more lean for you, and less for the bike.

Steve

[chasio]

I do a long sweeping curve onto the mortorway (Onewa Rd, North Shore) at speed every day, and have been experiementing on this bend with weighting, and it just makes so much more sense having weight on the inside peg.

I will check it up in that book "Total Control" as well.

Any comments from other riders out there?

I ride that bend frequently as well. It's beautiful in the dry, but the two sets of metal strips over the joins give me the shits in wet weather, particularly the second one.

Have you found weighting the inside or outside peg makes much different to how slippery they feel in the wet?

[R-Soul]

I didn,t say he was not right. (as far as counter steering went) It was his holy than now attitude in telling people they have no right to be on the road if they don't have a one or another skills he thinks they should have.

I see what you are saying, but you can only assume that his attitude is what it is because he cares about guys not being injured.

In that respect, if the entire biking community were serious about safety and had the attitusde that "proper bikers" are prepared to do what it takes (inlcuding thinking hard) to be safe, we might have a few less accidents on our roads.

Yes it is a bit arrogant and knobbish, but I would rather be the arrogant knob that than have to watch them pull another body out of the ditch...or read about a widow telling everyone what a great guy her hubby used to be, and how much his kids are going to miss him...

[R-Soul]

I ride that bend frequently as well. It's beautiful in the dry, but the two sets of metal strips over the joins give me the shits in wet weather, particularly the second one.

Have you found weighting the inside or outside peg makes much different to how slippery they feel in the wet?

hehe I get you on that one - they give the same shits...

I always back off throttle before I get to them, or maintain very constant low throttle settings. The last thing I want to do is accelerate or have an open throttle setting that produces lots of torque that can cause the tyre to break away on the reduced grip that the metal offers...

I find that the weighting of the pegs (either works) just settles the suspension and stability, and seems to (not sure if this is scientififcally correct) reduce weight movement between front and back wheels.

In that way I reckon it helps, since suddens changes in the suspension geometry (whether increased weight on it ior changes in lean angle) or means sudden changes in traction (the ability to soak up bumps and keep the wheel sticking to the road).

[R-Soul]

You are quite correct. Add a bit of peg-weighting, and the whole process becomes just that little bit smoother and stable. Everything I've ever read etc on the weighting subject has been for the outside. If the inside peg works for you, go for it, I guess. As long as you/bike are working together, and you are cornering safely and smoothly, I guess it's the riders choice??

I just checked on the Total Control book, and the author reckons that either is good and depends on rider comfort (although he says many instructors insist on outside peg). He cites one picture of Randy Mamola going around a corner with his outside foot off the peg completely.

In answering a question below, I might have stumbled on the reason why it settles the suspension - it could be because it effectively places your body weight off the handlebars and settles it midway beteen the front and back suspension- so that the bike can ride like it was designed to do.


I suppose it also makes a more rigid couplig with the bike at a lower height from the ground, thereby increasing stability. Whatever- it DEFINITELY works.

[p.dath]

This is an interesting artcile frm Keith Code from the Superbike School on steering:

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

[R-Soul]

Try it. Setting up before a left-hand corner - lift weight off seat and put weight on right footpeg - note where your body moves. Bike tilts right, body goes left, bike goes straight ahead like > , now MAINTAIN this posture and countersteer into the corner. Take care not to sit upright as you roll in.

Before you roll in, you must tilt the bike the opposite way. If you don't, the bike will begin to corner early.



Yes, I countersteer in teh opposite direction while I have pre-shifted my body weight to teh inside.

But what I am saying is that you can load either peg and move your body weight inside simultaneously - it does not have to be your outside one.


In fact in your example, if I put my weight onto right peg, I have to move my bodyweight to above the right peg, not so? Or else I will be pushing on it from a cantilevered or unsupported position, tiring my leg out and forcing me to support myself on my arms- which is not what you want, as you want loose arms.

And if I move my bodyweight above the right peg, how do I simultaneously get my bodyweight inside the line of the bike on the left? This is what I mean when I say these two actions dont reconcile- especially when you get the same effect from loading the inside peg peg anyway...

[avgas]

Found the meaning to life yet? <_<

[R-Soul]

This is an interesting artcile frm Keith Code from the Superbike School on steering:

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

That is probably the most convincing proof ever of countersteering. It isolates what riders think they are doing to steer, from what they are actually doing.

To me this is probably one of the most important riding articles and experiments ever done. Wish I had read it when I was a teenager...

[R-Soul]

Found the meaning to life yet? <_<

Yup, but I charge for the answer...

:laugh:

[R-Soul]

I agree completely. Weight on either peg doesn't really cause an effect on the bike. The effect gained is the moving of the rider mass - towards the inside.




No - that is what I have been trying to tell you. Weight on the peg has a definite effect on the bike.

Try this:
Move your body to the inside line without pushing down on the inside/outside peg (whichever one you choose). Then, without changing the position of your body, just push down harder on the peg. The bike just stabilises, not because of your body positioing - as that has not changed. But it definitely feels different.

[p.dath]

That is probably the most convincing proof ever of countersteering. It isolates what riders think they are doing to steer, from what they are actually doing.

To me this is probably one of the most important riding articles and experiments ever done. Wish I had read it when I was a teenager...

Note that some of this advice is contrary to Twist of the Wrist II - but he does say in another posting that he got some of his info wrong for the book (based on what he now knows).

But motorcycling is all about learning, and I congratulation someone as experienced as Keith Code continuing to do research and improving his knowledge.

[R-Soul]

Note that some of this advice is contrary to Twist of the Wrist II - but he does say in another posting that he got some of his info wrong for the book (based on what he now knows).

But motorcycling is all about learning, and I congratulation someone as experienced as Keith Code continuing to do research and improving his knowledge.

Yes- and that was a very smart experiment. It effectively separates what the riders say that they do to steer, from secondary effects of what they are doing which actually cause them to steer. If the bars are fixed, then you can have no countersteering.

And if you use those immovable bars when you are moving and shifting body weight and bulldogging or whatever, you will still not get countersteering effects and no steering. Brilliant! Like he said- no BS.

If you dont have countersteering,you have bugger all. I estimated previously that weight steering is about 20% as effective as countersteering- and even I (who preaches countersteering) was wrong, as secondary actions from me moving my ass around must have been causing a certain amount of countersteering (which I thought was caused by weight).

[R-Soul]

Note that some of this advice is contrary to Twist of the Wrist II - but he does say in another posting that he got some of his info wrong for the book (based on what he now knows).

But motorcycling is all about learning, and I congratulation someone as experienced as Keith Code continuing to do research and improving his knowledge.

I really like this article as it finally once and for all proves counter steering.

BUT: A mate of mine pointed out that counter steering /mass shift is the way to get the bike to lean over initially for the corner, but you still need the bars to steer inwardly (i.e. opposite to the counter steering direction) once you are in the corner, to enable the vehicle's wheels to define a turning radius. If you cannot do this then no steering is possible at all.

He reckons that, once leaned over after counter steering, you need to move the handle bars back to enable the wheels to form the turning radius and if you could not do so, then you would not be able to turn through a corner with counter steering either.

I am a proponent of counter steering, but I have to admit what he says makes sense.

[MSTRS]

Counter steering 'rolls' the contact patch towards what is to be the inside of the corner. Once that happens, the bars will naturally turn in the direction of travel. On a neutral handling bike, that is where they will stay, until further input from the rider. That input is a repeat of the pre-turn push (or pull) if you need to tighten your line. Or vice versa to straighten out of the corner, or turn in the opposite direction to now...

[avgas]

Yup, but I charge for the answer...
No thanks deal enough with know nothing consultants thanks

[R-Soul]

Counter steering 'rolls' the contact patch towards what is to be the inside of the corner. Once that happens, the bars will naturally turn in the direction of travel. On a neutral handling bike, that is where they will stay, until further input from the rider. That input is a repeat of the pre-turn push (or pull) if you need to tighten your line. Or vice versa to straighten out of the corner, or turn in the opposite direction to now...

But if the bars can't physically turn at all, then it can't "turn in the direction of travel"?

I think the experiment may have succeeded too much in separating weight steering from steering at all.

The fact is that if you hang your weight off one side (a la weight steering), it WILL cause the bike to fall to that side. No rocket science there. I just think the rate at which it allows the bike to be leaned over is drastically reduced over that available from using counter steering (20 % as effective maybe?).

I always used to wonder how the hell the little Moto GP guys (Rossi is is what, like 65kgs?) used to get their bikes to flic-flac through the chicanes like they did. It could not have been possible with weight steering with their weight. When you think about the weight difference, 65 kgs is not going to easily change the direction of 180kg gyroscopically stabilised bike. Not quickly enough to go through chicanes.

I would not completelty write off weight steering, but for real control of your bike, counter steering is definitely more effective.

[R-Soul]

I hope nobody minds me debating both sides of the arguments here - I am just trying to find a good understanding of what is at play.

Has anyone else seen tehweather warnings for Auckland today?
Dmn, its goingto be a great ride home...:no:

[MSTRS]

But if the bars can't physically turn at all, then it can't "turn in the direction of travel"?


Who'd be stupid enough to ride a bike like that?

[R-Soul]

Who'd be stupid enough to ride a bike like that?

hehe apparently over 100 top riders...

[R-Soul]

Who'd be stupid enough to ride a bike like that?

OK My bad.

I forgot that on this bike there would be turning alowable - the fixed handlebars dont translate into fixed forks (as those are connected to the moving handlebars).

Keith also replied to my question to him and explained that the bike's rake and trail turns the wheel into the turn, and that no rider input is needed on the moving bars. I apologise if this is what you were trying to explain earlier.


:doh:

[MSTRS]

I missed something that said the bike in question had fixed bars, but turnable headstock etc?
In which case, all that is possible is weight shifting to turn the bike. It works, but is not very efficient.

[R-Soul]

I missed something that said the bike in question had fixed bars, but turnable headstock etc?
In which case, all that is possible is weight shifting to turn the bike. It works, but is not very efficient.

The bike had two sets of bars - one that worked normally, and one that was fixed to the bike frame and not turnable. The turnable one was connected to the forks. They then encouraged people who said they turned by weight shifting to use the fixed bars (to prevent accidental counter steering) to turn teh bike. The headstock could still turn, by the use of the rake and trail of the headstock that would follow the lean of teh bike caused by eth weight shifting.

But the actual turning that riders could do when they did not have countersteeering available to them was negligible. To quote:

"Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No Way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800 feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't smooth and it wasn't very effective."

[R-Soul]

I missed something that said the bike in question had fixed bars, but turnable headstock etc?
In which case, all that is possible is weight shifting to turn the bike. It works, but is not very efficient.

Yeah that was the point - that ONLY weight shifting turning was available without the "incidental" (or accidental) countersteering turning that actually happens to turn those guys who insist that they actually turn by weight shifting.

I saw a DVD yesterday from the BRONZ website where a Kiwi icon world champ bike rider said that he did not "really believe" in it!! Aaron somebody or other?

[MSTRS]

I saw a DVD yesterday from the BRONZ website where a Kiwi icon world champ bike rider said that he did not "really believe" in it!! Aaron somebody or other?

Saw that ages ago, and I thought WTF?
I guess it doesn't matter what one believes works for one, as long as what ever they do works.
But someone who doesn't believe in countersteering shouldn't be trying to teach/coach others.
I imagine the scene....
Tutor - you just lean off and round she goes
Pupil - ok...whoops...how did I run off the track?
Tutor - you need to 'do something with the bars...I think"

[R-Soul]

Saw that ages ago, and I thought WTF?
I guess it doesn't matter what one believes works for one, as long as what ever they do works.
But someone who doesn't believe in countersteering shouldn't be trying to teach/coach others.
I imagine the scene....
Tutor - you just lean off and round she goes
Pupil - ok...whoops...how did I run off the track?
Tutor - you need to 'do something with the bars...I think"

I have to say that those words were a massive disservice to new riders?

Immediately afterwards the judges (the trainers and top cop) looked aghast and the tutor and cop "respectfully" diagreed. Big up to them for having the balls to disagree with a word champ....