Cats-eyes and corners

[CookMySock]

Growl, just an "OH FUCK" moment on the way home.

90-100k , left hand corner, right-hand half-lane, front tyre clips a catseye and WHACK!!! Front end does a MAAAAAASIVE twitch and a swing to the left. What the fuck is up with this shit? It felt like I hit it with my fucking rim or something. I pictured teeth on tarseal there for a second. Not fucking amused.

Way too much progressive damping is my call.. but then I can hit them upright without care or consequence. Or is clipping catseyes while cornering not done?

Anyone care to elaborate?

TIA,
Steve

[Rodney007]

no idea. probably thousands of variables
due to angle of bike, the face of the cats eye, tyre temp , suspenion setup, where your body was, your riding a ho-bag, temperature of the cats eye and then the road surface undernieth it, what tyres you were using, the elevation of the corner, your riding experience, using a steering dampner, the condition of your steering head bearings, your bikes steering rake, your weight, your rim/tyre weight.. BLAH BLAH BLAH ... just try not to hit one next time?

[saxet]

At a guess you may have hit the catseye with the sidewall of the tyre thereby put the impact onto your rim.Should be o.k. but have a look at the rim for poss. damage.

[NighthawkNZ]

At a guess you may have hit the catseye with the sidewall of the tyre thereby put the impact onto your rim.Should be o.k. but have a look at the rim for poss. damage.

if he did hit a cats eye on a right hander then that is a very poor line and possibly have the bike was over the centre line including his head...

[mossy1200]

Done it mayself on the Hill as there was a bend that starts as the dual lanes finished and expected to see rim damage.Side walls are very firm when lent over and it felt like zero give on the cats eye.

[Robert Taylor]

Many of the above suggestions are valid but its also because of hydraulic choke off, there simply isnt enough flow rate in the standard front fork compression pistons. Aside from losing ride height control if you completely removed the compression shim stacks the forks would still jolt. A good piston and valving design will take away a lot of the pain ( but not all of it as you still need to feel connected to the road )
It can also be because the fork springs are too soft meaning the front end rides too low in its stroke.
I have a giggle quite often when people say adjust the clickers, the clickers do not vary the piston port size!!!

[BMWST?]

never run over em whilst leaned over and never ever run over them leaned over in the wet,,

[FJRider]

never run over em whilst leaned over and never ever run over them leaned over in the wet,,

Running over opossum skulls in a corner have a similar effect to that as well. A half inch movement of the front wheel sideways ... feels like a mile and a half ...

[CookMySock]

[....]its also because of hydraulic choke offYeah thats the first thing that occurred to me. I'm kinda sick of its' highly progressive suspension actually. It's just fucking rough. Yeah yeah I know the solution. :(


never run over em whilst leaned over and never ever run over them leaned over in the wetThis the answer I was hoping for. It seems this is something I should not be doing. At all. Yes I know, its lazy - and I should put my fucking wheels where I choose, and not where they end up. I am surprised I did not know this. I have not heard this discussed before. Maybe because most people apex hell out of corners and don't ride anywhere near the outside of it.


Running over opossum skulls in a corner have a similar effect to that as well. A half inch movement of the front wheel sideways ... feels like a mile and a half ...It sure did. If I didn't have some nice Michelin PR2's on there, I bet I would be spitting out teeth right now. It was all over in a blink, as it seems it does, but I was shocked to discover I was upright.

Many thanks Guys.

Steve

[p.dath]

Just read an interesting piece of of Keith Codes "Twist of the Wrist II" which talks about exactly this (hitting objects while cornering).

It talks about the gyropscopic effect of the wheels (obviously when they are spinning). To cut the article short, the gyroscopic action of the wheels opposes anything that tries to move them out of their line (just like countersteeing). And when you do it destablises the bike, until the force that tried to move the wheel stops, and then the gyroscopic action stops trying to oppose that force, and the bike will re-stablise again.

Don't ask me questions about this. I'm just learning about it ...

They only really important tip I can give you from the book is don't close the throttle. Doing so reduces the rear contact patch, which increases the chance of a slide occurring. You need to have a small amount of acceleration (0.1G to 0.2G) to counteract the effect (which causes a 60/40 countact patch ratio which it says is the optimum ratio for traction while cornering).

[CookMySock]

It talks about the gyropscopic effect of the wheels (obviously when they are spinning). To cut the article short, the gyroscopic action of the wheels opposes anything that tries to move them out of their line (just like countersteeing).Going by the hellava WHACK it gave, I'd say the forces involved were all to do with solid sidewall hitting solid catseye.


They only really important tip I can give you from the book is don't close the throttle. Doing so reduces the rear contact patch, which increases the chance of a slide occurring. You need to have a small amount of acceleration (0.1G to 0.2G) to counteract the effect (which causes a 60/40 countact patch ratio which it says is the optimum ratio for traction while cornering).That is all talk on the cereal box - I had no say in the matter. It was all over in a millisecond. It is faulty thinking to consider I could have done anything whatsoever, except to not hit it to begin with.

Try it yourself if you dare. I certainly won't be doing it again. I don't like apexing while I am touring - I think it is poor discipline, but the outside of fast left-handers is not an appropriate place to position the bike. The tyres go on the best seal - where the bike goes is unimportant provided it's in my lane.

Steve

[MyGSXF]

90-100k , left hand corner, right-hand half-lane, front tyre clips a catseye and WHACK!!! Front end does a MAAAAAASIVE twitch and a swing to the left.

Way too much progressive damping is my call.. but then I can hit them upright without care or consequence. Or is clipping catseyes while cornering not done?



It seems this is something I should not be doing. At all. Yes I know, its lazy - and I should put my fucking wheels where I choose, and not where they end up. I am surprised I did not know this. I have not heard this discussed before. Maybe because most people apex hell out of corners and don't ride anywhere near the outside of it.


I had no say in the matter. It was all over in a millisecond. It is faulty thinking to consider I could have done anything whatsoever, except to not hit it to begin with.

I don't like apexing while I am touring - I think it is poor discipline, but the outside of fast left-handers is not an appropriate place to position the bike. where the bike goes is unimportant provided it's in my lane.

To be honest I find a lot of your posts rather disturbing. :confused:

You hit a catseye, because of your poor line choice. If you ran wide in the corner & hit the centre line where the cats eyes are, then you were going to fast into the corner.

You had every say in the matter.. YOU are in control of your bike.. not the other way round!! you need to be in the correct gear, having done your braking before the corner while still in an upright position, & be on slight positive throttle when you get to the corner. Then roll the throttle on when you can clearly see the exit point of the corner

Where the bike goes, in your lane is very important!! & it is you who is in control of what happens!

Bikes don't crash.. people crash!! :oi-grr:

I would strongly urge you to find a good rider training school up your way & book in for a course! :niceone:

[FROSTY]

I was unlucky (or just dumb) enough to do exactly what DB did a few years back.
Overtaking a very slow moving truck on Piecock hill. I touched a catseye with the front wheel then hit a mudpatch with the rear wheel.
Ended up on my arse sliding towards a very long drop.
Hindsight is a great thing innit?
I thought I could see clear ahead Guess I was wrong.
Mistakes sometimes happen--I guess ya just learn from em

[jonbuoy]

Erm is it just me or is it stating the obvious to not run over anything when your tipped over? Rocks and dead animals can be unexpected but a line of cats eyes? I try not to hit them in a straight line if I can avoid it.

[sinfull]

piecock hill. catsey ????????????

[CookMySock]

You hit a catseye, because of your poor line choice. If you ran wide in the corner & hit the centre line where the cats eyes are, then you were going to fast into the corner. No I didn't. I hit a catseye because I didnt know it was dangerous. I was lazily riding around the corner because I did not perceive any danger. I was wrong. If there was danger - I would have avoided it.


You had every say in the matter.. YOU are in control of your bike.. not the other way round!! you need to be in the correct gear, having done your braking before the corner while still in an upright position, & be on slight positive throttle when you get to the corner. Then roll the throttle on when you can clearly see the exit point of the corner.. Where the bike goes, in your lane is very important!! & it is you who is in control of what happens! Bikes don't crash.. people crash!! :oi-grr:
I would strongly urge you to find a good rider training school up your way & book in for a course! :niceone:blah blah blah blah lecture ignored. Perhaps you think I dont already know this? Now you have learned lots about rider training, you might take a hint about training riders?

This thread is about clipping things that are there on EVERY corner. I am expressing my surprise, that a common(!) thing on the road could kill a rider. Clipping a catseye leaned over on a wet road on a left-hander with a truck coming the other way is an instant FATAL. I didn't know this. I bet lots of others didnt either. Now they do. What did you do useful today?

Steve

[MSTRS]

Anyone riding on the road/s without realising that almost everything is a threat, is asking for trouble.
FFS letting your wheeltrack drift wide enough to hit the cat's eyes is just stupid anyway. On the line of cat's eyes is the painted median lines too. You do realise that hitting them cranked over in the wet is bad??

[MyGSXF]

No I didn't. I hit a catseye because I didnt know it was dangerous. I was lazily riding around the corner because I did not perceive any danger. I was wrong. If there was danger - I would have avoided it.

blah blah blah blah lecture ignored. Perhaps you think I dont already know this? Now you have learned lots about rider training, you might take a hint about training riders?

This thread is about clipping things that are there on EVERY corner. I am expressing my surprise, that a common(!) thing on the road could kill a rider. Clipping a catseye leaned over on a wet road on a left-hander with a truck coming the other way is an instant FATAL. I didn't know this. I bet lots of others didnt either. Now they do. What did you do useful today?

Steve


as you say.. "a common(!) thing on the road could kill a rider"

remind me never to ride with you!! :wacko:

[MyGSXF]

PS: as you aptly put it in your following post...

" All this "forget it and just ride" advice, is all very good until you get a fright and brain-lock. Then you are fucked aren't you.

Only riders fully brain-trained in countersteering have any command of the bike in an emergency. So either you do, or you don't - which will it be? Roll dice, pay money.. Live, die.. choose today.

Steve"

maybe you should have counter-steered around the cats eyes... :whistle:

[jrandom]

you need to be in the correct gear, having done your braking before the corner while still in an upright position, & be on slight positive throttle when you get to the corner. Then roll the throttle on when you can clearly see the exit point of the corner

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Exhibit A: The middle-aged woman who's learned how to use about ten percent of her motorcycle's handling capabilities.

Unfortunately, someone seems to have let her loose on the internet.

[MyGSXF]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Exhibit A: The middle-aged woman who's learned how to use about ten percent of her motorcycle's handling capabilities.

Unfortunately, someone seems to have let her loose on the internet.

lols.. nice try JR.. :lol:

I have over 100 hours training with one of the countries most highly respected & regarded rider training schools.. & now I'm one of their instructors.. teaching people exactly what you said yourself, below! :girlfight:

"Every moment on the bike, you make the decisions that will keep it upright. You're in control. Learn to ride it properly and no dropping need occur."

You have a great day!! :sunny:

[jrandom]

I have over 100 hours training with one of the countries most highly respected & regarded rider training schools.. & now I'm one of their instructors...

Oh, I know you do. I saw your 'look at meeeee' thread.

And that's why I was generous, and gave you ten percent. I should note that I'd probably give DB about five.

Unfortunately, though, a hundred hours of training in parroting 'this is how not to fall off your bike' tips to learner riders will only get you so far.

[MyGSXF]

a hundred hours of training in parroting 'this is how not to fall off your bike' tips to learner riders will only get you so far.

lols.. sign up & come & do a course.. & then you might actually be in a position to comment... instead of just blowing out your arse.. like you are doing.. :bleh:

[MSTRS]

The obnoxious are in the same class as the ignorant and the certifiable idiots, when it comes to being taken seriously

[jrandom]

lols.. sign up & come & do a course.. & then you might actually be in a position to comment... instead of just blowing out your arse.. like you are doing.. :bleh:

Who's the provider? Can you link to a description of the course contents?

[jrandom]

The obnoxious are in the same class as the ignorant and the certifiable idiots, when it comes to being taken seriously

Taken seriously or not, though, the obnoxious would still give you the learn.

:msn-wink:

[MyGSXF]

Who's the provider? Can you link to a description of the course contents?

www.roadsafe.co.nz


(Their website is currently in the process of being updated )


They go to Auckland sometimes to do courses.. :whistle:

[jrandom]

www.roadsafe.co.nz

(Their website is currently in the process of being updated )

Heh!

I see that their 'Advanced Skills' course includes hill starts, countersteering and how carrying a pillion affects handling.

I rest my case.

[gwigs]

never run over em whilst leaned over and never ever run over them leaned over in the wet,,

BMWST is correct....its not rocket science....bumps in road are to be avoided.
Try to use parts of the road that dont have bumps..:whistle:

[MyGSXF]

I rest my case.

Best you do.. thanks for the giggles!! :2thumbsup

[CookMySock]

maybe you should have counter-steered around the cats eyes... :whistle:Do I have to yell at you or something before you GET IT ?

I didn't ATTEMPT to AVOID the fucking things, because I DIDN'T KNOW it was unsafe to HIT THEM. Capice?

Did I learn my lesson? Yep. Did I share it with others? Yep. Did you miss the point and blow your mouth off? Yep.

For fucks sake, I hope you can instruct better than you can comprehend.


lols.. sign up & come & do a course.. & then you might actually be in a position to comment... instead of just blowing out your arse.. like you are doing.. :bleh:You are not this smart. Think about it.

Steve

[jrandom]

Best you do.. thanks for the giggles!!

Any time, ma'am.

Might see you at the track sometime now that you've learned all there is to know about hill starts and countersteering, eh?

[duckonin]

BMWST is correct....its not rocket science....bumps in road are to be avoided.
Try to use parts of the road that dont have bumps..:whistle:

Try to use roads not laid by Fulton Hogan then...:whistle:

[FROSTY]

Jen heres the thing. EVERYBODY makes mistakes. A momentary loss of concentration is all it takes sometimes. The secret is learn from them

[MyGSXF]

Jen heres the thing. EVERYBODY makes mistakes. A momentary loss of concentration is all it takes sometimes. The secret is learn from them

Fer sure hun.. life is all about learning.. me included!! :yes:

Tis the attitude here that bothers me.. :oi-grr:

[FROSTY]

Fer sure hun.. life is all about learning.. me included!! :yes:

Tis the attitude here that bothers me.. :oi-grr:
Nahh taint the attitude tis the internet percieved attitude.
Reality and whats prtrayed on the net is something different.

[MSTRS]

Taken seriously or not, though, the obnoxious would still give you the learn.

:msn-wink:

Oh, I'm sure you could. In some things.
How many times have you been walking due to demerits? I'm quite sure that I can 'give you the learn' in that department...:msn-wink: back at ya

[jrandom]

How many times have you been walking due to demerits?

I don't walk.

I cycle.

:sunny:

[p.dath]

Oh, I know you do. I saw your 'look at meeeee' thread.

And that's why I was generous, and gave you ten percent. I should note that I'd probably give DB about five.

Unfortunately, though, a hundred hours of training in parroting 'this is how not to fall off your bike' tips to learner riders will only get you so far.

As Austin Powers would say, "Ouch baby". I don't see anything wrong with the advice given.

So are you saying you think the advice is wrong, or not sufficiently descriptive enough to be useful?

It's really easy to personally attack someone. That needs no skills except a keyboard.

If you don't agree with the advice why not counter it with some better advice, so your years of riding experience can help others?

[MSTRS]

I don't walk.

I cycle.

:sunny:

Good for you. How is your weight-loss program going, anyway? :whistle:

[PrincessBandit]

I learnt the hard way not to hit them in the wet while overtaking a car in the rain on a hill. It was blowing a gale and all was clear for the move (dual lanes, wasn't an overtake in terms of moving into the opposing traffic lane) and I just clipped one when woah the front wheel started to lift and knock from side to side. Not massively, or I probably would have been off the road ever since! but enough to make me ease off and relax my grip (wasn't easy to do). Ever since, I've avoided hitting them if I can, or anything else that's likely to have the same effect.

[jrandom]

Good for you. How is your weight-loss program going, anyway? :whistle:

I'm down 25kg since the beginning of the year.

And the cycling has allowed me to achieve that while maintaining my high-performance diet of steak and cheese pies, cream doughnuts, beer and pizza.

[MSTRS]

I learnt the hard way not to hit them in the wet while overtaking a car in the rain on a hill. It was blowing a gale and all was clear for the move (dual lanes, wasn't an overtake in terms of moving into the opposing traffic lane) and I just clipped one when woah the front wheel started to lift and knock from side to side. Not massively, or I probably would have been off the road ever since! but enough to make me ease off and relax my grip (wasn't easy to do). Ever since, I've avoided hitting them if I can, or anything else that's likely to have the same effect.

That's a tankslapper. Ideal conditions for starting one of those is to be (and it can be very slightly) leaning, under acceleration and hitting a bump or hollow in the road surface. Very common on corner exits.

[jrandom]

As Austin Powers would say, "Ouch baby". I don't see anything wrong with the advice given.

So are you saying you think the advice is wrong, or not sufficiently descriptive enough to be useful?

It's really easy to personally attack someone. That needs no skills except a keyboard.

If you don't agree with the advice why not counter it with some better advice, so your years of riding experience can help others?

The advice itself was the canonical way to advise a new rider to go slowly around a corner without falling off.

Of course, those who never move beyond that advice are doomed to spend the rest of their lives teetering slowly around corners and expounding it to others as though it were the be-all and end-all of how to ride.

(It also appears that some of them then start 'riding schools' dedicated to getting paid for expounding that advice, which also offer advanced classes in... hill-starts and countersteering. Heh!)

Anyhow, the above approach can be limiting, not to mention dangerous when situations present themselves that require a deeper understanding of control dynamics.

That aside, I took issue with the condescending tone in which MyGSXF delivered the advice to DB.

Her 'certification' qualifies her to dispense 'how not to fall off' advice to new riders, nothing else, and it is good to remind the Gentle Readers of that fact, lest they see this thread but fail to realise that there is far more to motorcycling than braking on the straight and throttling on gently once the corner exit is in sight.

[ital916]

Okay, I am still confused. How did you hit a catseye? Country road, left hander, you are in the right hand half of the lane exiting the corner and your front wheel hits a catseye. If you are still cranked over exiting the corner, hitting the catseye you must have been running wide...very wide? Or I have misread the situation.

Note: I have not read the posts of waffle, I just skipped from post 1 to here.

Yeah, I only hit catseyes on motorways, when changing lanes, having misjudged the timing to pop between them. Anyway, I hope you apologised to the cat and that their eye is feeling much better.

[Mully]

Okay, I am still confused. How did you hit a catseye? Country road, left hander, you are in the right hand half of the lane exiting the corner and your front wheel hits a catseye. If you are still cranked over exiting the corner, hitting the catseye you must have been running wide...very wide? Or I have misread the situation.

Note: I have not read the posts of waffle, I just skipped from post 1 to here.


Yeah, that was part of the waffle - short version DB drifted wide on a corner and was warning people that catseyes are Dangerous (tm).

Don't discount the waffle - it's regularly the only thing that brings me back here.

[ital916]

Heh!

I see that their 'Advanced Skills' course includes hill starts, countersteering and how carrying a pillion affects handling.

I rest my case.

I would class any sort of skill in operating a motorcycle as advanced. We are always learning, to think we have mastered something is to let our guard down. That is when the shit hits the fan.

To think I can take this corner, cos I am experienced and have mastered cornering is when you go wide and hit a catseye :whistle:

[ital916]

Yeah, that was part of the waffle - short version DB drifted wide on a corner and was warning people that catseyes are Dangerous (tm).

Don't discount the waffle - it's regularly the only thing that brings me back here.

Well hitting the catseye is always going to be dangeous, hitting anything witha bike is dangerous.

Why are we not concentrating on the message of not running wide on corners. Mistakes are made, lets look back upon this incident and figure out where along the chain the mistake was made leading to running wide. I think it is when DB got on the bike and turned it on. haha I is just messin with ya DB, glad you are ok.

[jrandom]

Don't discount the waffle...

Not even on Wednesdays?

<img src="http://i35.tinypic.com/o6irzk.jpg"/>

[Mully]

Not even on Wednesdays?

Don't you have cycling to do?

[jrandom]

Don't you have cycling to do?

I'm very sick and had to stay home with the internets.

I bet you're all pleased about that.

[Mully]

I'm very sick and had to stay home with the internets.

I bet you're all pleased about that.

Just bursting with pleasure.

[jrandom]

Just bursting with pleasure.

Don't go making a mess on your waffles.

[MyGSXF]

Her 'certification' qualifies her to dispense 'how not to fall off' advice to new riders, nothing else, and it is good to remind the Gentle Readers of that fact, lest they see this thread but fail to realise that there is far more to motorcycling than braking on the straight and throttling on gently once the corner exit is in sight.

The more you write the harder I laugh at your ignorance... :lol:

& yes there is FAAAARRRR more to riding than that VERY basic description I gave.. :doh:

I suggest you do some research & find out just what is involved in getting an "I endorsement" from NZTA.. coz you're blowing out your arse.. again... :girlfight:

[MSTRS]

... coz you're blowing out your arse.. again...

She's right. I looked out the window...and the trees are moving...
:dodge:

[jrandom]

I suggest you do some research & find out just what is involved in getting an "I endorsement" from NZTA...

Lots of multiple-choice tests, I expect. Maybe an essay question or two?

Feel free to enlighten us; failing to refute my points with actual information about what your 'I' endorsement involves will result in people assuming that I'm right about its lack of substance, y'know.

And I don't think you want people to assume that I'm right about its lack of substance, do you?

[MyGSXF]

Lots of multiple-choice tests, I expect. Maybe an essay question or two?

Feel free to enlighten us; failing to refute my points with actual information about what your 'I' endorsement involves will result in people assuming that I'm right about its lack of substance, y'know.

And I don't think you want people to assume that I'm right about its lack of substance, do you?

Google is your friend.. y'know.. :rolleyes: & you do know who the NZTA is... don't you.... :corn:

[beyond]

Lets put this in perspective.
I have noticed particularly in summer that as the roads heat up, large vehicles can and do shift the catseyes so they are no longer on the centreline.

I have come across this a lot and if they aren't sorted out they are left for sometimes years.

It just so happens that they move to where the best apex line is and if you are moving fast and leaned right over they do give your tyres a good whack and if the front wheel contacts them leaned over you will alter your line by as much as several hundred millimetres.

I've had my front wheel pop off one which was right on my apex line and well away from the centreline and it threw my front quite a distance left.

I now have a healthy respect for those little shiny things especially when they have been moved offline.

Catsyes are best avoided when leaned over.

[jrandom]

Google is your friend.. y'know..

Ah, so it is mostly multiple choice questions, eh?

My point remains; getting an 'I' endorsement does not require an above-average level of actual motorcycle control ability.

And, as we all know, 'average' is pretty poor around these parts, unfortunately.

If I'm wrong, feel free to describe what you did have to prove to get that 'I' endorsement.

(Aside from getting all those multiple-choice questions right.)

Hinting that I'm wrong about your mediocre motorcycle control skills without actually saying how or why... doesn't really do much to make up for you proudly pointing me to a website that lists hill starts and countersteering as 'advanced' topics, y'know.

[MyGSXF]

Ah, so it is mostly multiple choice questions, eh?

My point remains; getting an 'I' endorsement does not require an above-average level of actual motorcycle control ability.

And, as we all know, 'average' is pretty poor around these parts, unfortunately.

If I'm wrong, feel free to describe what you did have to prove to get that 'I' endorsement.

(Aside from getting all those multiple-choice questions right.)

Hinting that I'm wrong about your mediocre motorcycle control skills without actually saying how or why... doesn't really do much to make up for you proudly pointing me to a website that lists hill starts and countersteering as 'advanced' topics, y'know.

My jaw is getting sore from laughing so much... :wacko:

Ignorance is bliss... You enjoy your trolling JR.. :wavey:

[avgas]

This thread is about clipping things that are there on EVERY corner. I am expressing my surprise, that a common(!) thing on the road could kill a rider. Clipping a catseye leaned over on a wet road on a left-hander with a truck coming the other way is an instant FATAL. I didn't know this. I bet lots of
If you don't like being dead i suggest you drop this hobby of riding a bike.
Fact of the matter is that everything can kill you in correct amounts.
Whether it be inanimate objects like cats-eyes or moving stuff such as dogs, cars and other motorcyclist.

Having a little cry about losing your ability of being 100% in control of your vehicle just goes to show that your rather naive about who rules the road. (FYI is not me - I'm just road kill waiting to happen)

[gatch]

In other news, partway through a urban cornering maneuver I hit a cats eye..

I bet little Jimmy was pretty unhappy at finding moggy limp in front of his house with a 150 section pirelli mark across the top of its head.. I didn't try to avoid it, given the surroundings it was me or the cat..

I've never hit a reflector though, that's just retarded..

[jonbuoy]

The more you write the harder I laugh at your ignorance... :lol:

& yes there is FAAAARRRR more to riding than that VERY basic description I gave.. :doh:

I suggest you do some research & find out just what is involved in getting an "I endorsement" from NZTA.. coz you're blowing out your arse.. again... :girlfight:

No-one likes a know it all, especially one who just got their advanced riding instructor badge. I'll take my training from a police biker if its all the same thanks.

[Bonez]

No I didn't. I hit a catseye because I didnt know it was dangerous. I was lazily riding around the corner because I did not perceive any danger. I was wrong. If there was danger - I would have avoided it.So you've learnt a leason, well done. For goodness sake take up a safer hobby. Like knitting or some such. No forget that, it involves needles.

[surfchick]

never run over em whilst leaned over and never ever run over them leaned over in the wet,,

I second this!
I hit a 2.5 inch lump of raised tarseal in the centre of some tight turns while connecting back to ak from sh16 two weekends ago - i hit the bump banked over going quite quick and the bike launched sizeways a foot and caught traction again in the same leaning position but almost on the centre line. :buggerd:At the same moment a car was coming on the other side right where I felt like I was going to bin into - but somehow the bike caught and I rode out of it...

[crazyhorse]

Phew!!!! Nothing like a fright is there :hug:

[CookMySock]

Why are we not concentrating on the message of not running wide on corners. Mistakes are made, lets look back upon this incident and figure out where along the chain the mistake was made leading to running wide.Ok here it is;

When I had the bike in the right half lane, in a tight left turn, wheels are very close to the centreline.

Where am I supposed to be looking? At the corner vanishing point right?

Where is my head position - to the left of the windscreen right?

Now answer me this - what are my chances of looking down at my front wheel and judging the distance between it and the catseyes, and when should I ever be doing such a thing? The answer to that should be "zero", and "never." Neither of those two things are remotely appropriate in those circumstances.

So how the hell do I know how close I am to the centerline?

It's not about running wide because I can't steer - its about managing the bike in an extremely tight area while looking in the opposite direction. Infeasible!

And lets not forget the first thing - I had no idea that catseyes were a really bad thing to hit while cornering. This has happened one time before, but I thought I must have hit a rock or something, so now it is all very clear.

The two morals to the story are a.) if you are riding in the left or the right half lane, leave the TYRES there and move the bike around, not the other way around, and b.) don't fucking hit ANYTHING while you are cornering or pay the price.

Steve

[Katman]

Now answer me this.........

It's easy - stop treating the road like a fucking racetrack.

:weird:

[ital916]

Ok here it is;

When I had the bike in the right half lane, in a tight left turn, wheels are very close to the centreline.

Where am I supposed to be looking? At the corner vanishing point right?

Where is my head position - to the left of the windscreen right?

Now answer me this - what are my chances of looking down at my front wheel and judging the distance between it and the catseyes, and when should I ever be doing such a thing? The answer to that should be "zero", and "never." Neither of those two things are remotely appropriate in those circumstances.

So how the hell do I know how close I am to the centerline?

It's not about running wide because I can't steer - its about managing the bike in an extremely tight area while looking in the opposite direction. Infeasible!

And lets not forget the first thing - I had no idea that catseyes were a really bad thing to hit while cornering. This has happened one time before, but I thought I must have hit a rock or something, so now it is all very clear.

The two morals to the story are a.) if you are riding in the left or the right half lane, leave the TYRES there and move the bike around, not the other way around, and b.) don't fucking hit ANYTHING while you are cornering or pay the price.

Steve

A wise man once told me that you should be able to put the bike anywhere in the lane during a manouver, that a rider should know what the bike is doing and where the tyres are contacting the road. I dont want to come accross as sounding silly but what you just wrote was silly. Yes it is good to look well ahead but you have to be aware of what the bike is doing and where it is at. You've basically just stated that when exiting a corner you know and see only what is in front of you. If that is the case then there is trouble approaching quickly. Or, it could be just me, that enters corners at a speed where I can digest everything happening with the bike. God forbid whilst looking into the distance you are unable to tell that your bike is in the other bloody lane of the road.

[gatch]

Ok here it is

Its called spacial awareness, if you don't know where your tires are tracking without looking, how do you even know that you are in the right lane ?

No I'm not taking the piss.

[NighthawkNZ]

God forbid whilst looking into the distance you are unable to tell that your bike is in the other bloody lane of the road.

Sounds like he braked and turned into the corner a too early...

[ital916]

Its called spacial awareness, if you don't know where your tires are tracking without looking, how do you even know that you are in the right lane ?

No I'm not taking the piss.

yeah, that was what I meant haha, only I took a paragraph.

[gatch]

yeah, that was what I meant haha, only I took a paragraph.

We all love tales about wise men haha, plenty on kb hahaha

[sleemanj]

To me.

Sounds like.

(Don's flame retarding vest).

Going too fast, trying too hard.

Simple as that.

We're all guilty of it at some point in time.

The faster any body goes, the wider they get until they exceed their bravery or ability and end up on or over the center.

Road not a racetrack.

Don't hit nuthin on the road, including paint, oil, shiny lookin bits of seal, grit, cats eyes, lumpy bits, small children... they all mean trouble.

[NighthawkNZ]

Going too fast, trying too hard.

Simple as that.

then there is that... yup... Simple as that

[Bonez]

Ok here it is;

When I had the bike in the right half lane, in a tight left turn, wheels are very close to the centreline.No. On the centerline. Where the cats eye was right?

[crazyhorse]

I hate the cats eyes on the road - they are dangerous things, esp in the wet

[MSTRS]

I hate the cats eyes on the road - they are dangerous things, esp in the wet

There's more likelihood of hitting roadmarking paint. That's MoreBadder (TM) than catseyes. You should always know where your tyres are contacting the road and where they are tracking. Catseyes are at least predictable as to where they are placed in relation to the marked lane/s. Hitting them at a critical moment is a sign of a rider not being in complete control. No matter how many of that type I've read of in the obits, there's always a few more along shortly...

[Jantar]

...When I had the bike in the right half lane, in a tight left turn, wheels are very close to the centreline.
.....
If you hit it with the side wall of the tyre while leaning into a corner then you were over the centerline.

[george formby]

It's easy - stop treating the road like a fucking racetrack.

:weird:

:banana:Yup, control your speed & look were you are going. From the moment you sit on the bike, where it goes & how quickly is totally up to you.
If you end up cranked over on a cats eye then you gotta be on the wrong side of the road in the first place. You might clip the left of one as you begin to lean if your still in lane but otherwise, your riding in Europe.

[MSTRS]

From the moment you sit on the bike, where it goes & how quickly is totally up to you.


This man understands...

[carbonhed]

I don't think he's running wide because he's going too fast.

He's turning his corners like the British motorcycle cops advocate where you stay wide right around the corner to maximise sightlines. Unfortunately he's losing track of the actual path of his wheels... which is pretty catastrophically bad DB and can only end painfully.

Now you know there's a problem you can work on fixing it.

[avgas]

So how the hell do I know how close I am to the centerline?
Good god man - get off the road now - before you kill someone.
I can see the centreline when its painted black on a black road at night.......

[hang0ver]

Many of the above suggestions are valid but its also because of hydraulic choke off, there simply isnt enough flow rate in the standard front fork compression pistons. Aside from losing ride height control if you completely removed the compression shim stacks the forks would still jolt. A good piston and valving design will take away a lot of the pain ( but not all of it as you still need to feel connected to the road )
It can also be because the fork springs are too soft meaning the front end rides too low in its stroke.
I have a giggle quite often when people say adjust the clickers, the clickers do not vary the piston port size!!!

Wholly shit that was intense, I just got a hard on.

Maybe instead of a suspension overhaul you should adjust your line?

[CookMySock]

I don't think he's running wide because he's going too fast.

He's turning his corners like the British motorcycle cops advocate where you stay wide right around the corner to maximise sightlines. Unfortunately he's losing track of the actual path of his wheels... which is pretty catastrophically bad DB and can only end painfully.

Now you know there's a problem you can work on fixing it.Holy mother of god, someone gets it!

I guess when I'm moving quickly I generally apex. That day I wasn't. lesson learned. I didn't know.

Steve

[ital916]

Holy mother of god, someone gets it!

I guess when I'm moving quickly I generally apex.

Steve

Kinky.. ;)

[FROSTY]

Holy mother of god, someone gets it!

I guess when I'm moving quickly I generally apex. That day I wasn't. lesson learned. I didn't know.

Steve
Steve--it worries me that you werent aware of your position in relation to the cateye.

[avgas]

Wholly shit that was intense, I just got a hard on.

Maybe instead of a suspension overhaul you should adjust your line?
Where is the sales pitch in that???....Don't be too concerned with Robert - he means no harm.
We all have to earn bread - in his case its selling the stuff that makes the springy bit better. Of course it does help if the bike has a springy bit.

[racefactory]

Why don't you guys just shut the fuck up arguing? Really, it makes you all look like a little pack of bitches... grow up and get along, or if you can't do that, go out and ride your bike. Thanks.

[Hans]

Why don't you guys just shut the fuck up arguing? Really, it makes you all look like a little pack of bitches... grow up and get along, or if you can't do that, go out and ride your bike. Thanks.

Erm...Thinks...No.

[Hans]

Right. This is going to be a write up. It'll probably turn into a lecture.I apologise in advance. I'll summarise a few points other people have made, criticise others and than add a few of my own.

First of all, I will blow my own trumpet (yes, I can bend THAT far forward). I have all NZ license classes and all endorsements, including an "I". I have raced cages, been involved in development of said cages and taught advanced car driving for some distinctly non-civilian applications. I currently drive for a living. I will openly admit that out of all the things I have ever driven or ridden, motorbikes are the vehicle that I am the worst and least confident in operating. However, the principles that I am going to talk about apply to driving anything quickly, under all circumstances.

1. DB. Your mistake was not having total control over what was going on. Yes, it has probably happened to every single one of us at some point, that does not make it a valid excuse. You are seriously not saying you didn't know that EVERYTHING on the road, right down to the slimy little tar lines joining patches of asphalt, is a hazard? If you don't know, where your wheels are, literally to a few mm, you're not in control.

2. MyGSXF. I am surprised that a qualified instructor, such as yourself, would miss the most important points raised by this debate and resort to giving concrete advice on "complete your braking before you turn into corner etc". With respect to you personally, the points you have tried to raise are bollocks.
Oh yeah, and Rossi must be a complete squid, because he doesn't have an I endorsement, right?

3. The whole issue here, just as in most situations, boils down to what one of the wise people who taught me called "spare brain capacity" and reserves.
When you ride /drive, fly, whatever/ you shouldn't get to a point where you are using all of your brain capacity to simply operate the vehicle. That gets you killed. Without a generous dose of BOTH talent and training most people will be at full capacity when treating the road as their racetrack. And then you have to add cages, other bikes etc. to the mix.
Noticing things on the side of the road, birds flying overhead, facial expressions of people standing on the roadside etc. is a decent sign, that you still have some capacity free. Do you notice any of these things regularly when riding really fast? If not, you probably ride faster than you should.
You build this "brain capacity" by going faster in a safer environment. Not on a public road.

4. Lines. Personally I consider going close to the white line on any corner I can't completely see around suicide. How many times has some cager who thinks they're Carlos fucking Sainz come around the corner on your side? Just because biker cops in England advocate something, is not reason enough for me to get killed.
Besides, riding the perfect race line on a public road will, sooner or later, lead you onto shit you'd rather not ride over.

5. Shit on the road. If I know I want to ride a bit of road at more than a brisk pace, I make the effort of riding it slowly one way and faster on the way back. That way I can note every possum carcass and new pothole that has sprung up since I've last been there. That eliminates SOME of the risk.

Feel free to bash me now.

[Pixie]

If you hit it with the side wall of the tyre while leaning into a corner then you were over the centerline.

Actually,It's veeewy difficult to hit anything with the sidewall of the tyre.If you do,it's indicative that you have probably already fallen off.

[duckonin]

Right. This is going to be a write up. It'll probably turn into a lecture.I apologise in advance. I'll summarise a few points other people have made, criticise others and than add a few of my own.

First of all, I will blow my own trumpet (yes, I can bend THAT far forward). I have all NZ license classes and all endorsements, including an "I". I have raced cages, been involved in development of said cages and taught advanced car driving for some distinctly non-civilian applications. I currently drive for a living. I will openly admit that out of all the things I have ever driven or ridden, motorbikes are the vehicle that I am the worst and least confident in operating. However, the principles that I am going to talk about apply to driving anything quickly, under all circumstances.

1. DB. Your mistake was not having total control over what was going on. Yes, it has probably happened to every single one of us at some point, that does not make it a valid excuse. You are seriously not saying you didn't know that EVERYTHING on the road, right down to the slimy little tar lines joining patches of asphalt, is a hazard? If you don't know, where your wheels are, literally to a few mm, you're not in control.

2. MyGSXF. I am surprised that a qualified instructor, such as yourself, would miss the most important points raised by this debate and resort to giving concrete advice on "complete your braking before you turn into corner etc". With respect to you personally, the points you have tried to raise are bollocks.
Oh yeah, and Rossi must be a complete squid, because he doesn't have an I endorsement, right?

3. The whole issue here, just as in most situations, boils down to what one of the wise people who taught me called "spare brain capacity" and reserves.
When you ride /drive, fly, whatever/ you shouldn't get to a point where you are using all of your brain capacity to simply operate the vehicle. That gets you killed. Without a generous dose of BOTH talent and training most people will be at full capacity when treating the road as their racetrack. And then you have to add cages, other bikes etc. to the mix.
Noticing things on the side of the road, birds flying overhead, facial expressions of people standing on the roadside etc. is a decent sign, that you still have some capacity free. Do you notice any of these things regularly when riding really fast? If not, you probably ride faster than you should.
You build this "brain capacity" by going faster in a safer environment. Not on a public road.

4. Lines. Personally I consider going close to the white line on any corner I can't completely see around suicide. How many times has some cager who thinks they're Carlos fucking Sainz come around the corner on your side? Just because biker cops in England advocate something, is not reason enough for me to get killed.
Besides, riding the perfect race line on a public road will, sooner or later, lead you onto shit you'd rather not ride over.

5. Shit on the road. If I know I want to ride a bit of road at more than a brisk pace, I make the effort of riding it slowly one way and faster on the way back. That way I can note every possum carcass and new pothole that has sprung up since I've last been there. That eliminates SOME of the risk.

Feel free to bash me now.
No need to bash you, you have said it well !!