Soldering guidelines?

[BASS-TREBLE]

As I like to do my own things to the bikes, soldering wires is a common event.

I get connections that last etc but they can be ugly.

Is it just a simple matter of me using too much solder?
What is recommended for cleaning wires to be soldered?

Hoping to for a list here to help myself and others that need it.

G'night everyone

[vindy500]

As I like to do my own things to the bikes, soldering wires is a common event.

I get connections that last etc but they can be ugly.

Is it just a simple matter of me using too much solder?
What is recommended for cleaning wires to be soldered?

Hoping to for a list here to help myself and others that need it.

G'night everyone

strip the wires before you solder, this displays clean wire.

dont twist the wire together before soldering, just hold the two wires next to each other, this looks tidier

use a small amount of electrical tape, or even better heatshrink

[Warr]

ugly
Yea can happen,

too much solder
Yea if you haven't cleaned joint properly

cleaning wires to be soldered
If your job is clean the solder will flow and shouldn't need too much
For wiring, just use a resin core solder.

Cleanliness. A new bit of wire, with insulation stripped back will be clean and the copper strands bright.
Tin (apply solder) to both ends to be joined and then hold together and heat. No extra solder should be required.
Slide some heat shrink over the join and seal it up.


If trying to solder and the wire strands are dull, this could be due to excessive current being applied to that peice of cable.
It wont 'Tin' easily. So grab a sharp knife (stanley knife) and scrape both sides of the wire. This should expose clean copper wire and the solder will flow over the area. If it wont cut back the wire and try again, or throw the wire away.
If soldering onto terminals, scrape these till you have a bright surface that the solder will flow over.

When soldering wiring, extending, replacing damaged sections, dont bother twisting the copper strands together. A straight joint of 3-4mm will give sufficient physical strength (and electrical conductivity).
If you are joining several wires together however, twisting is the best way to hold the bundle together while soldering.

[CookMySock]

Keep the overlap short - 5mm ish.

Cut the wire back until its bright.

Use a gas-powered iron, or a BIG mains one. Forget using a pissy little electronics one.

The tip must be tinned and shiny. If its not, it wont work.

Wipe the iron tip with a damp cloth, tin the iron tip, and then heat the wire, and lastly add the solder to the WIRE, NOT the IRON. Add solder until it tins correctly. If it wont completely tin, the iron is too cold.

If there is too much solder on the tinned wire ends to be joined, heat and tap it ALL off and reapply a smaller amount. Dont recycle solder. There should be a smooth coating, not a massive blob. It should be shiney and not dull.

Slide your heatshrink tube over, trim the tinned tips back to about 5mm, and hold them parallel, and with a hot iron heat them both together so they melt together. This should take about 2 seconds of heating time - no more. Any more and you have to tap all the solder off and start again, and then your wiring insulation will start to look shitty and burned.

Never use PVC insulation tape on anything.

IMO you are better off to spend 50 bux on a quality crimp tool and do it properly. You are going to spend double that on a proper soldering iron anyway.

Steve

[crazyhorse]

Interesting reading............... now to go buy the ingrediants and try it ..... :yes:

[elevenhundred]

If you are referring to soldering on your 87 FZR then your soldering problems are probably caused by the wires not being clean.
Even though it has been wrapped in plastic, 20+ years of life on a motorcycle is hard on wiring. I have a bike from 86 and when I stripped back the wires they weren't all shiny but had a darkish tinge and the solder would just blob. Soldering is piss easy when you have clean connections.
No amount of flux cored solder is gonna make those joints stick properly either, that shit is just too dirty.
I sourced myself some liquid flux, suprisingly I couldn't get any from Dick Smiths or Jaycar but found some in an art supply shop (Gordon Harris).
Just dip the wires in and voila clean wires, just clean off flux then solder away.

Oh and don't fuck around with electrical tape, if you want tidy joins then use heat shrink to cover them then use the tape to re-wrap the loom.

[CookMySock]

I sourced myself some liquid flux... Just dip the wires in and voila clean wires, just clean off flux then solder away.Yeah, but six months down the track your wiring rots away.

In this situation, you have to crimp.

Steve

[vifferman]

A stronger joint than twisting the wires together is made if you lightly twist the wires, then use a "hook'n'loop" join before soldering. It's lumpier, but strong. Even if the solder starts to fail, the wires will stay connected.
If you do use insulation tape, make sure it's loom tape - the same stuff that's used on your bike to tape the wiring loom up. It's less sticky, and the adhesive is heat-resistant, so it won't lose its grip like ornery insulting tape does.

If it's some substantial wiring like in the charging system, use that split plastic loom tubing. You don't even need to thread the wires through, as you can just poke them in the side. It will also protect the wires from heat and abrasion.

For soldering fatter (heavier gauge) wires, or something that sucks away heat quickly, you'll need something with more grunt than an electronics soldering iron. I've got three irons - an electronics one with a fine tip for delicate jobs, a pistol-grip one with a quick heat button to add some extra watts, and a stained glass one, which isn't hugely grunty, but holds the heat very well just because it has a larger tip.

While Steve's right about corrosion eating your wires away, it need not be that way. It's the galvanic corrosion between the copper and lead/tin solder that causes it, so the more reactive copper turns to copper oxide. However, this only occurs in the presence of water and oxygen, so you can reduce this happening by applying something to the soldered joint to keep air and moisture out. Either dielectric grease or liquid insulation will help with this.

[Coldrider]

I use 'Duzzal' brand flux, only used when needed, and an unfluxed solder.
There are heaps of different solder made from different compounds to choose from.
And never inhale the fumes, ventilate the area.

[Pixie]

I use 'Duzzal' brand flux, only used when needed, and an unfluxed solder.
There are heaps of different solder made from different compounds to choose from.
And never inhale the fumes, ventilate the area.

Acid fluxes will wick down the conductors into the insulation and cause corrosion and,eventually,failure.

Most important! - apply the solder to the joint not the iron's bit.

[nallac]

Acid fluxes will wick down the conductors into the insulation and cause corrosion and,eventually,failure.

Most important! - apply the solder to the joint not the iron's bit.

ya learn something new everday...so thats why my soldering looks like crap.

[KiwiGs]

If I have to solder a joint. This is what I do.
Strip the wires back so that they are nice and shiny then "tin" the ends of the wires.
Then it is a just a matter of putting the wires side by side, or hook and loop if you prefer, and touching the soldering bolt to the wires when the solder starts to run add a small amount of solder and hold the joint still until it is cooled.
When the joint is good it should be nice and shiny.
Remember to keep the soldering bolt tip nice and clean, and dont forget the heat shrink.

[CookMySock]

Look guys, you shouldn't really be solding shit on bikes. Get an industrial/commercial crimp tool (same price as a good gas soldering iron) and some terminals, and do it properly. Soldering on automotive stuff is never really gunna work out.

Steve

[Coldrider]

Acid fluxes will wick down the conductors into the insulation and cause corrosion and,eventually,failure.

Most important! - apply the solder to the joint not the iron's bit.Repairing microprocessor cards was part of my job as a techy many years ago. Some joints will not take if they are contaminated.
Just because other people have problems soldering doesn't mean others do.

[Warr]

Look guys, you shouldn't really be solding shit on bikes. Get an industrial/commercial crimp tool (same price as a good gas soldering iron) and some terminals, and do it properly. Soldering on automotive stuff is never really gunna work out.

Steve
I'll have to press you for some more justification on that score.
Soldering on bike is all I do, and from previous posts - so long as the joint is watertight there should be no corrosion issues. If I felt corrosion was to be an issue I'd clean the joint with kero and then meths.

Crimping in my mind doesnt quite do it for me. But perhaps thats cause I have never bought a commercial crimp tool. Do you have a pic of what you are suggesting.

[Coldrider]

I am surprised no one has mentioned using an earthing strap connected to your body, looks real impressive to novices, don't want any static frying your wires, a vacuum de-solder extractor as well for rework.

[CookMySock]

@Warr, one of these ;

<img src="http://www.voltelectronics.co.nz/media/catalog/product/cache/6/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/i/m/image_13368.gif">

http://www.voltelectronics.co.nz/tools/crimping-tools/automotive-crimp-tool.html

Steve

[imdying]

Soldering on bike is all I do, and from previous posts - so long as the joint is watertight there should be no corrosion issues. If I felt corrosion was to be an issue I'd clean the joint with kero and then meths.He's correct, the flux used in conventional soldering is corrosive and will eat the joint and loom.


Crimping in my mind doesnt quite do it for me.All bikes are crimped from the factory, done correctly it's quite reliable.

There was a discussion on this on another bike site a few years back. One of the people to reply is a an electrical engineer who documented the soldering method that they/he use at NASA on satellites/space shuttle etc. Can't remember where it is now though :/

Gutwick, whilst seemingly not as impressive as a vacuum solder sucker, often works for this sort of work, imho.

[vifferman]

All bikes are crimped from the factory, done correctly it's quite reliable.
That's a very good point. But the key is "done correctly". Also (plus! [as well!!] many of the OEM wires in motorcycle wiring are very light gauge.

[imdying]

Yes, both soldering and crimping, when done incorrectly, are excellent points of failure just waiting to happen.

[Coldrider]

If the solder is allowed to run up the wire, there will be a point where it is rigid, the flexible part with vibration equals break.

[huff3r]

Funny that so many people are anti-soldering. All the auto-electricians i've ever seen at work, allthough this is on cars, have only used solder. Even on the race-cars, on mine i used crimps simply because i didnt have a soldering iron, but i'd like to re-do them. If solder holds up in a race-car when its done right its good enough for me :)

[F5 Dave]

I am surprised no one has mentioned using an earthing strap connected to your body, looks real impressive to novices, don't want any static frying your wires, a vacuum de-solder extractor as well for rework.
Yeah, those wires are easily damaged:wacko:

Back to reality again;
Electrically solder is better if done correctly (however hard to do on old contaminated wires).


But if it moves & vibrates the Mil answer is to crimp it. Bike looms often get a hard time with steering flexing them. Good quality bare metal crimps with heatshrink & a std Utilux crimp tool will sort you out. I have done maybe a hundred on the my 500 hybrid. The solder joint the previous owner used were a point of failure.

Decent electrical shop should be able to set you up, maybe search Utilux site for what you want.

[Coldrider]

Yeah, those wires are easily damaged:wacko:

Back to reality again;Obviously tongue in cheek comment when dealing with semi conductors and cmos chips.
I cant beleive so much crap on something so simple.

Maybe a a few failed DYI jobs should be taken to Mitre 10, someone might get a prize. :pinch:

[CookMySock]

Electrically solder is better if done correctlyI don't think it is. I understand the solder is electrically quite poor compared to a copper-to-copper swaged multiple-contact joint.

Steve

[smoky]

...you shouldn't really be solding shit on bikes. Soldering on automotive stuff is never really gunna work out.

The complete opposite is my experience (and many others) for the past 30 odd years (mind you I only did a couple of years cable jointing).
probably the only reason they crimp in manufacture is cost




What is recommended for cleaning wires to be soldered?

Hoping to for a list here to help myself and others that need it.

G'night everyone

Once stripped you can give it a bit of a scrap - I don't normally use extra flux but prefer solder with a flux core

the trick is 'tinning' - pre soldering the separate ends to be joined.

Heat is the trick - clean tip on the soldering iron, a little dab of solder on the tip, then hold it on the wire to heat the wire up
when you see the solder on the tip get soaked into the wire; you know it's hot enough - then feed the solder into the wire (not the soldering iron)

The after you've tinned the ends of both bits of wire to be joined; you hold or twist them together and heat - again when you see the solder go molten you only feed in a little more solder.

I use a mechanical connecter (crimp or strip connector) as well, or heat shrink over the joint

haven't had a failure yet.

[tri boy]

Look guys, you shouldn't really be solding shit on bikes. Get an industrial/commercial crimp tool (same price as a good gas soldering iron) and some terminals, and do it properly. Soldering on automotive stuff is never really gunna work out.

Steve

Wish somebody would tell Suzuki that. Ever stripped open one of their wiring looms?:puke:

[jonbuoy]

Solder joints don't have much physical strength but if the conductors are intertwined and covered with glue filled heatshrink they are more waterproof and better conductors than crimp terminals in my experience. The joint should be supported and have no tension on it.

Most failures are dry joints - touching two tinned conductors together and heating with an iron is a dry joint waiting to happen. If you intertwine (not tie in an ugly knot) properly the join will be as strong as the wire and won't be any bigger than the wire when you sleeve it. Ring crimps and are OK better if soldered after crimping. I dislike bullets, inline and spade crimps - looks like shit when you have 3 or more together and the spades have bugger all surface area.

[smoky]

- touching two tinned conductors together and heating with an iron is a dry joint waiting to happen. If you intertwine (not tie in an ugly knot) properly the join will be as strong as the wire and won't be any bigger than the wire when you sleeve it..

I agree, if I want a strong joint I normally splay open the strands, cut the center one out, hold the two ends together and pass the splayed ends between each other and wind them over the ajoining wire - then solder

[Coldrider]

Most of the 'black boxes' that the wires 'push connector' are soldered inside.
Mind you we use things far longer than their intended lifespan.
It comes down to the resistance of the join and the application.
I have witnessed an attempt to solder tails onto a toaster element, the result was spectacular.

[Pixie]

I agree, if I want a strong joint I normally splay open the strands, cut the center one out, hold the two ends together and pass the splayed ends between each other and wind them over the ajoining wire - then solder
This used to be known as a married joint,or a maori joint if it was done badly

[Pixie]

I'll have to press you for some more justification on that score.
Soldering on bike is all I do, and from previous posts - so long as the joint is watertight there should be no corrosion issues. If I felt corrosion was to be an issue I'd clean the joint with kero and then meths.

Crimping in my mind doesnt quite do it for me. But perhaps thats cause I have never bought a commercial crimp tool. Do you have a pic of what you are suggesting.

The advantages of properly crimped joints are:
N.B. A "properly" crimped joint is one where the correct size connector for the size of wire and the correct tool was used.

They allow a bit more flexure at the joint than solder does on multi-conductor cable.

There is no flux residue to attack the wires

There is often stress relief designed into the connector.

[Pixie]

Repairing microprocessor cards was part of my job as a techy many years ago. Some joints will not take if they are contaminated.
Just because other people have problems soldering doesn't mean others do.
Abrasion is the best way to clean a PCB if possible.A fibreglass brush is ideal

[Pixie]

Gutwick, whilst seemingly not as impressive as a vacuum solder sucker, often works for this sort of work, imho.

When I was an apprentice this conversation would often be heard:
"Pass me the solder sucker"
"Don't call me,sucker.Jive turkey"

[dipshit]

I solder wires together by giving them a twist around each other and holding the soldering iron underneath the wires and touching the solder on top of the wires... until enough heat gets into the joint and the solder melts into it.

There are two types of crimping connections and crimping tools. One cheap and nasty type that is most common. Another type that has a much better crimp (and is the same as most bike manufacturers use) but seems to be becoming harder and harder to find in the shops.

Anybody know of a good supplier of the better quality ones?

[F5 Dave]

Well first mail order search got this; Hells teeth I think I only paid $40. But this does show what you'd be after. I think they've got the price of the flash harry one, but this does roll & crimp bare metal crimps properly. (as opposed to the punch-a-deformation type meant for insulated crimps, (which are a travesty).

http://www.sulco.co.nz/Product?Action=View&Product_id=11706


Well I did say in my first post just cruise into your local electrical supplier & ask for above tool. Or check trademe.

[izzyc]

i see that you have a few answers to this , but another option you could try is product from the NARVA brand...available at PARTMASTER automotive stores...it basically is like a piece of tube[about an inch long] that you put but your pieces of wire into then use a heat gun/torch on it....there is solder in the tubing so there is no mess, its easy, and its waterproof when done! ! ! ...hope this helps

[kwaka_crasher]

I only ever solder and always use Duzall - never had a failure. The same cannot be said for factory crimped fittings which are done for cost not longevity.

[dipshit]

Well I did say in my first post just cruise into your local electrical supplier & ask for above tool. Or check trademe.

It's not so much the problem of finding the good crimping tool. It's more the problem of finding a good selection of the decent crimp attachments. Both dick smith and jaycar mainly carry those crappy plastic insulated ones.

I had to use them on my last job on my bike. I pulled off their plastic installation so I could see the crimp on the wire... then also added a touch of solder. Then re insulated with heat shrink.

[F5 Dave]

So erm. Cruise into your local electrical supplier.

Why would you look for automotive stuff in Dicky Smitts?

If you look up the utilux cattledog you can order what you want if they don't have it on their shelf..

[mossy1200]

Since Bass owns a fzr1000 he will be trying to solder in a new VR and will be cursing about limited space and thinking where is the clean copper end etc.
you need to pull out the alternator and do it on a bench.
I assume you got a VR dirrect replacement that fits in the alternator.

You need to get some green coloured shit that looks like swafega.Its a cleaning solution for welding called flux and you should be able to get it from supercheep etc or dicksmiths.Alot of solders contain flux but in low quantities.

The connections will require a high temp iron with small tip and you need to pre solder the wires slightly then get in fast so as to not damage the VR.

It may not be a VR replacement your doing(assumption is the mother of all fuck ups).

[marty]

IMO you are better off to spend 50 bux on a quality crimp tool and do it properly. You are going to spend double that on a proper soldering iron anyway.

Steve

almost exclusively, we use these >> http://www.ttiinc.com/object/fp_tyco_raychemminiseal.html on commercial airliners. the heat shrunk seal prevents most water ingress, and the whole assembly is extremely strong but light.

My son's car stereo certainly doesn't give any trouble :)

[dipshit]

a the whole assembly is extremely strong but light.

Someone once told me they don't use solder in the aviation industry mainly because of the weight it adds. Is that basically true..??

[jonbuoy]

A good splice guide to soldering on here, the heatshrink guidelines are all wrong though.

http://jaguar.professional.org/electrics/splicing.php

[classic zed]

To join wires I strip them back a bit then twist them together inline, this reduces the size of the joint. I then solder the joint and cover it with heatshrink tubing. When all the wires are joined I tape the harness using a very low tack Harness Tape. Notice I also stagger the joionts to avoid a bulge in the harness.

In the last pic you would hardly know that Id cut 8 inches out of the harness :laugh:

As an Auto Electrician for many many years Iv used this method often without any problems.

[phantom]

As an apprentice radio/electronics technician I was told that the reason crimping was used so much in production is because it is easier to train an unskilled worker to produce a useable crimped joint whereas it takes more skill to produce a corresponding soldered joint.

[imdying]

When all the wires are joined I tape the harness using a very low tack Harness Tape.Hey, have you ever tried the 3M Scotch 23 tape? Much cop?

[classic zed]

Hey, have you ever tried the 3M Scotch 23 tape? Much cop?

I havent tried it yet but I'll keep a look out for it and give it a go.

[Pixie]

I only ever solder and always use Duzall - never had a failure. The same cannot be said for factory crimped fittings which are done for cost not longevity.

This is incorrect.
Come back when you have had 32 years in the electrical industry.

[imdying]

I havent tried it yet but I'll keep a look out for it and give it a go.Sweet, I need to tape some parts on my loom that require modifications (extentions), it sounds like just the ticket.

[BASS-TREBLE]

Whats this 3M stuff?

[imdying]

A special insultation tape. 3M make oodles of different tapes, this new one has some interesting properties, you'd be best to look up the details on their site.