Top-out springs?

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Ohlins has 4 different rate top out springs for their forks & cartridges.

How do you know you have the right one for your set up?

[Pussy]

This is VERY much a personal preference thing.
I've got what I like in my cartridges, for the feel that I'm looking for... might not necessarily suit you.
Another US company was for some time advocating short top out springs.. I had their product in one of my previous bikes. Short top out springs feel like shite... induce quite a bit of understeer when changing from one turning direction to the other

[Robert Taylor]

This is VERY much a personal preference thing.
I've got what I like in my cartridges, for the feel that I'm looking for... might not necessarily suit you.
Another US company was for some time advocating short top out springs.. I had their product in one of my previous bikes. Short top out springs feel like shite... induce quite a bit of understeer when changing from one turning direction to the other

It also has to be balanced against main spring rate. We have a box of top out springs ( also for shocks ) and we test with them all the time. The results of testing different options can be quite marked. Different rates and lengths, more tha 4 options...
Race Tech and Penske dont use them in their rear shocks and have their own theories. I prefer Ohlins and WPs mentality of embracing their use. Dont get me started any further, this is a huge subject.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

OK that is what I thought.

When working with a rider, what should he be looking for if you had him trying different top out springs?

And -

If you were changing fork springs to higher rate at what point of increase would you also want to change the top out spring to maintain that balance?

Is there any type of chart that x rate top out spring should be used with x rate main spring?

[Robert Taylor]

OK that is what I thought.

When working with a rider, what should he be looking for if you had him trying different top out springs?

And -

If you were changing fork springs to higher rate at what point of increase would you also want to change the top out spring to maintain that balance?

Is there any type of chart that x rate top out spring should be used with x rate main spring?

Youll have to do what we do, buy up all the options and test test test! Much of this is from experience.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Youll have to do what we do, buy up all the options and test test test! Much of this is from experience.
OK, I understand no free lunches.

[Shaun]

OK, I understand no free lunches.


What part of the USA are you from mate?

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

The whole part, its all mine.

Boston.

[Shaun]

The whole part, its all mine.

Boston.



Sounds like you need a GOOD test rider to work with for a bit, to up your data base?


PM Robert about me, and see if I fit the bill for you

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Trust me you don't want to come here.

I used to do racing stuff full time and went to all the races to provide support to the guys I worked with. Then I got hurt and pretty much got out of it and was working in an office in cubicle.

A good friend of mine is now going pretty fast so I am looking to get back into things somewhat so I can get his bike to where he can win some championships.

Some things have changed in the time I was away so I am trying to pick it back up as quickly as I can. Trust me, we will end up testing a lot of stuff next season.

[Shaun]

Trust me you don't want to come here.

I used to do racing stuff full time and went to all the races to provide support to the guys I worked with. Then I got hurt and pretty much got out of it and was working in an office in cubicle.

A good friend of mine is now going pretty fast so I am looking to get back into things somewhat so I can get his bike to where he can win some championships.

Some things have changed in the time I was away so I am trying to pick it back up as quickly as I can. Trust me, we will end up testing a lot of stuff next season.



OK, perhaps you need to come out here and work then, and learn as much as possible

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

If there is a job there then here I come because there are none to be had here.

[Shaun]

If there is a job there then here I come because there are none to be had here.

You have been typing with one of the very best suspension people in the world on here through Robert mate, give him a push

Ha ha Robert, here he comes

[Robert Taylor]

OK, I understand no free lunches.

No, no intention to be evasive. Its just that our workload is mental and I am mindful that sometimes I give too much away publicly ( as Shaun has often warned me ) and we do have ''parasites'' in NZ feeding their own already inflated egos.

We have over the years spent a lot of time with various lengths and rates of topout springs and often the box of toys is too big! There is something new and very clever being trialed by the Ohlins race department but I have viewed this in the strictest confidence.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

No, no intention to be evasive.

Not saying that, it is just more work.

I was hoping to get some sort of direction to start.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Its just that our workload is mental
Sounds like you need more employees - I just so happen to know an American looking for a job......

[JD Racing]

http://www.onthethrottle.com/content/view/375/40/


Robert will like these guys thoughts on top out springs.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

It seems some tuners advocate removing them from the shocks and some don't.

As Mr Taylor said, Penske does not use them. I do not know what Showa does on their kit and works stuff.

I know that years ago one factory AMA team had tested shocks with and without top out springs and that at least one rider preferred the top out spring removed.

[Pussy]

one rider preferred

There is the relevant point.
Not every rider likes the same thing.
As a suspension tuner, you can't say "when I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"
You've got to find out what the rider WANTS

[Robert Taylor]

http://www.onthethrottle.com/content/view/375/40/


Robert will like these guys thoughts on top out springs.

Yes I have just watched it, why do these guys effectively ''assume'' or even mislead that there is only one rate of topout spring? They are not hard to change and do quickly if you have a vacuum bleeder to hand. In some ways I suspect that many trackside tuners dont like this added variable.............??

Soft springs have to be balanced with soft top out springs.

At Philip Island WSBK pre season tests nearly two years ago I spent a whole day testing varying rates and lengths of top out springs with Katsu Fujiwara. We also tested with no top out springs but an important point here is that with no top out springs you also have to run a steeper nose part of the low speed rebound damping curve, the curve has to be reshaped with a new valving and bleed clicker setting. Thats another subject!

Conclusions from that test were that when everything was balanced properly you had better rear wheel stability under braking and more sidegrip with top out springs, it did show on the telemetry.

Note that the oem 07 ZX6RR has a dreaded topout spring!!

Shortly we are going to test a new Race Tech shock, they in line with US thinking do not have a top out spring. Im open minded, this will be interesting.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

You've got to find out what the rider WANTS
The problem is that a lot of riders have no clue what they want.

What is the worst thing a rider can say to his mechanic/tuner?

[Shaun]

The problem is that a lot of riders have no clue what they want.

What is the worst thing a rider can say to his mechanic/tuner?




Fix it, NOW

[DrZeeple]

Sorry to butt in; but my involvement is not high enough to send PM's, or I would have! So, this is the only way to show a little info-update stuff...

T/O's are like RT said a massive subject, heaps of fun when you have them all in your toy-box and have played with them in conjunction with shock designs and linkages; damper curve shapes (etc etc), the practicable possibilities, they go on and on!

Anyhow, back on topic: we have had these Penske neg. springs since the end of last year - they're OK; but their approach I suppose you might say is closer to how Factory Showa play things, and thus a similar approach is required....

As regards that D Moss character, nah I ain't feeling it there at all (tuning is all internal, the rest is knob-juggling!) - nearly each one of those videos promotes something just plain wrong (sag setting? please!); to make a video for helping everyone comprehend more than they do is one thing; but should said video misrepresent the subject matter, or in some way or other be ambiguous, then it causes harm n'est pas?!

One such EG that comes to mind is when he has an FGK kit in a 675 and thus proclaims that if it is 2 clicks out or 9 clicks out @ the rebound then it must be one type of valving or the other (presumably between 1670-01/2061 or -04/-03 pistons and related spec changes). However one should never promote rebound to be run that low if possible, to allude as such is potentially harmful! (grrr!)

Anyways, I'm off - gotta say it is lovely to see you all so interested in things; but I have no intention of living in NZ again for the foreseeable future (tho' never say never eh!); so shan't bother you all; just thought you may have interest in the 2009 Penske optional update... :)

[Robert Taylor]

Sorry to butt in; but my involvement is not high enough to send PM's, or I would have! So, this is the only way to show a little info-update stuff...

T/O's are like RT said a massive subject, heaps of fun when you have them all in your toy-box and have played with them in conjunction with shock designs and linkages; damper curve shapes (etc etc), the practicable possibilities, they go on and on!

Anyhow, back on topic: we have had these Penske neg. springs since the end of last year - they're OK; but their approach I suppose you might say is closer to how Factory Showa play things, and thus a similar approach is required....

As regards that D Moss character, nah I ain't feeling it there at all (tuning is all internal, the rest is knob-juggling!) - nearly each one of those videos promotes something just plain wrong (sag setting? please!); to make a video for helping everyone comprehend more than they do is one thing; but should said video misrepresent the subject matter, or in some way or other be ambiguous, then it causes harm n'est pas?!

One such EG that comes to mind is when he has an FGK kit in a 675 and thus proclaims that if it is 2 clicks out or 9 clicks out @ the rebound then it must be one type of valving or the other (presumably between 1670-01/2061 or -04/-03 pistons and related spec changes). However one should never promote rebound to be run that low if possible, to allude as such is potentially harmful! (grrr!)

Anyways, I'm off - gotta say it is lovely to see you all so interested in things; but I have no intention of living in NZ again for the foreseeable future (tho' never say never eh!); so shan't bother you all; just thought you may have interest in the 2009 Penske optional update... :)

Thanks for the input and Im glad that Im not the only one that is wary of Dave Moss's ''blanket'' statements. Its posted on the internet so it must be correct? (Yeah right ) I rather think that the engineers at the Ohlins factory know rather more about top out springs than he does! ( I was up in Sweden a month or so ago and was discussing top out springs with the racing manager )
Concedingly yes youve got to have a big box of toys, dedication and willing articulate riders to get the best out of it. In NZ the riders that spring to mind that fall into that category are Andrew Stroud, Craig Shirriffs and Shaun Harris.

Interesting that Penske now offer such an option, there are a few other things they do rather well.

[JD Racing]

Yes I have just watched it, why do these guys effectively ''assume'' or even mislead that there is only one rate of topout spring? They are not hard to change and do quickly if you have a vacuum bleeder to hand. In some ways I suspect that many trackside tuners dont like this added variable.............??

Soft springs have to be balanced with soft top out springs.

At Philip Island WSBK pre season tests nearly two years ago I spent a whole day testing varying rates and lengths of top out springs with Katsu Fujiwara. We also tested with no top out springs but an important point here is that with no top out springs you also have to run a steeper nose part of the low speed rebound damping curve, the curve has to be reshaped with a new valving and bleed clicker setting. Thats another subject!

Conclusions from that test were that when everything was balanced properly you had better rear wheel stability under braking and more sidegrip with top out springs, it did show on the telemetry.

Note that the oem 07 ZX6RR has a dreaded topout spring!!

Shortly we are going to test a new Race Tech shock, they in line with US thinking do not have a top out spring. Im open minded, this will be interesting.


The top out springs would have no impact on side grip unless you were running exceptionally long ones, the G loading mid turn would take you well out of the range of the top out, the changes in side grip would be explained by the changes in the low speed and bleed that you'd made.

Top out springs add a geometry element to the suspensions function, for example long top out springs in the forks can stop wheelies but so can steeper swing arm angles they can also make the forks work low in the stroke making the steering nervous, nervous steering can also be caused by a steeper swing arm angle. You need to look at all aspects of the bike, head angle, offset, trail, crank height, swing arm angle, wheelbase etc, etc.

[Robert Taylor]

The top out springs would have no impact on side grip unless you were running exceptionally long ones, the G loading mid turn would take you well out of the range of the top out, the changes in side grip would be explained by the changes in the low speed and bleed that you'd made.

Top out springs add a geometry element to the suspensions function, for example long top out springs in the forks can stop wheelies but so can steeper swing arm angles they can also make the forks work low in the stroke making the steering nervous, nervous steering can also be caused by a steeper swing arm angle. You need to look at all aspects of the bike, head angle, offset, trail, crank height, swing arm angle, wheelbase etc, etc.

It depends on what part of the corner we are talking about of course. If its about corner entry leading up to transition then yes the top out spring does have an effect on sidegrip. And isnt suspension also about controlling / regulating change of geometry.

[JD Racing]

I think we have a difference in the definition of sidegrip there, sidegrip to me is during and after the transition, not before. If you have a rider who's backing it in all the way to the apex, side grip is not an issue, it's only when the front brake is released and weight trnsfers to the rear that side grip is important.

Some parts of a suspension unit control geometry to an extent, top out springs to me have more of a geometry function than a suspension function.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

What is the worst thing a rider can say to his mechanic/tuner?


Fix it, NOW

Nope.

Its "I was thinking........."

[Shaun]

Nope.

Its "I was thinking........."



Ha ha, and in 3 hours from that comment, YOU have a totaly different bike! Whether it works or not is another ? though

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Soft springs have to be balanced with soft top out springs.

I figured that the stiffer the main spring, the stiffer the top out spring.

I checked a couple of the Ohlins spec cards to get an idea of how much they increase the top out springs rate in conjunction with a higher rate main spring and I found interestingly enough, Ohlins matches up a 4 N/mm top springs with 9.0 N/mm main springs in their FGK 132 (GSX-R600/750) kit but then installs a 3.5 N/mm top out springs with 9.5 N/mm main springs in their FGK 138 (Ducati 848/1098) kit.

[Robert Taylor]

I think we have a difference in the definition of sidegrip there, sidegrip to me is during and after the transition, not before. If you have a rider who's backing it in all the way to the apex, side grip is not an issue, it's only when the front brake is released and weight trnsfers to the rear that side grip is important.

Some parts of a suspension unit control geometry to an extent, top out springs to me have more of a geometry function than a suspension function.

Yes fair enough thats the accepted definition. But you still importantly need grip on the way in. Riders that prefer to back it in will likely not favour top out springs so much, but even when backing it in they still want a level of grip.
So many ways to skin the cat with this!
Id have to mostly agree that TO springs provide more a geometry fuction, but geometry ( or rate of change of geometry ) also affects grip. I guess like I said in a previous post this is a huge subject.

[Pussy]

The problem is that a lot of riders have no clue what they want.



Admittedly, a rider needs to be able to describe symptoms/characteristics with some accuracy to be able to get the fix that he/she requires

[Robert Taylor]

The less sorted out your front is the more need there is for very effective topping out control in the rear shock, under brakes. ''Pitch balance control"
My experience is that top out springs ( when chosen correctly ) assist most in the braking zone of corner entry.
What do these ''on the throttle '' guys know that the Ohlins techs dont know? The same techs that work closely with Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner, Spies, Haga, Biaggi, Rea, Haslam, Checa, Crutchlow, Laverty, Sofoglu,etc etc. These guys all run top out springs and the techs are not afraid to have options and change them as an added tuning element.
There are those tuners who try and do it all by external clicks ( which can only take you so far ) and those who are not afraid to lift the lid on suspension units to go further forward.

[GSVR]

Admittedly, a rider needs to be able to describe symptoms/characteristics with some accuracy to be able to get the fix that he/she requires

Cold sweating, unable to get comfortable and the feeling theres insects crawing under the skin.

I want my standard SV suspension back as this race/trackday setup is dam uncomfortable everyday ridng on the road!

[GSVR]

The less sorted out your front is the more need there is for very effective topping out control in the rear shock, under brakes. ''Pitch balance control"
My experience is that top out springs ( when chosen correctly ) assist most in the braking zone of corner entry.
What do these ''on the throttle '' guys know that the Ohlins techs dont know? The same techs that work closely with Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner, Spies, Haga, Biaggi, Rea, Haslam, Checa, Crutchlow, Laverty, Sofoglu,etc etc. These guys all run top out springs and the techs are not afraid to have options and change them as an added tuning element.
There are those tuners who try and do it all by external clicks ( which can only take you so far ) and those who are not afraid to lift the lid on suspension units to go further forward.


Didn't get to see much racing at Manfield last weekend. How did Sam go after his "shocking" suspension had been all fixed up?

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1129478827]The less sorted out your front is the more need there is for very effective topping out control in the rear shock, under brakes. ''Pitch balance control"
My experience is that top out springs ( when chosen correctly ) assist most in the braking zone of corner entry.



Agreed with what you say here Robert, when we were doing all that test work together a few years back now, Your above comment, was and is exactually correct

I remember the 3 shocks I had you build for the CBR 600 I raced and won on, the key to each one after we had internal settings that I liked, was different top out spring in each shock for me to test, and the difference realy surprised me, the rate of the top out spring has a huge effect on how the bike behaves going into a turn with the brakes on, ie, geometry completly altered, Front down, rear up! ( ''Pitch balance control" ) and the top out spring allows the wheel to stay in contact with the ground better, by giving it controll at the end of it,s stroke whilst breaking, they are nothing more than a ballancing device, but a very Important device

Now don't get started on front Top out springs guys, Robert had me doing days at Manfeild a few years back testing all this stuff, my forks and shocks have done more miles on a courier than the bikes ever did, and I loved it.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

What do these ''on the throttle '' guys know that the Ohlins techs dont know? The same techs that work closely with Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner, Spies, Haga, Biaggi, Rea, Haslam, Checa, Crutchlow, Laverty, Sofoglu,etc etc. These guys all run top out springs and the techs are not afraid to have options and change them as an added tuning element.

One of the most common things you hear in the states is that guys don't like top out springs because "you can't get proper sag settings". I don't think top out springs are really understood in the US.

Another thing is that suspension tuning in my country is a one size fits all approach. Everyone likes to have x compression stack & y rebound stack they can put in every customer's forks. Obviously you need a stack to start with as a baseline, but most people (including the customers) do not want to go beyond that.

In the past all the bikes came with short stiff top out springs that I personally don't think moved all that much. Now you have new bikes coming out with longer softer top out springs and that introduces a new variable. A new variable means more work, and that means more headaches.



There are those tuners who try and do it all by external clicks ( which can only take you so far ) and those who are not afraid to lift the lid on suspension units to go further forward.
I don't know those OTT guys and that video was the first I had ever seen them.

I am not making any excuses, but part of that is the market place in the US. Excluding the top level riders/teams, people will not pay to revalve their Ohlins or Penske shock. You just will not get them to do it.

The reasoning behind this is -
1. You are talking to someone who has no clue about what is going on with the bike and what they should be looking for.
2. The guy's mindset is that he just paid $1k+ USD for an Ohlins shock and that Ohlins is the best and how could anyone do anything better.
3. Since they just paid $1k+ USD for that shock they are not going to spend any more $$ on it.
4. All the riders over here are concerned about horsepower which goes back to #1. I talk to guys over here all the time and they all think they need more motor.

They talk about how they all get passed coming off the turn. You try to explain to them about corner speed but they just don't get it.

I spoke with my friend the club racer about spending a couple of hundred dollars getting his Ohlins shock revalved and his answer was that he didn't have the money. The next day he is sending me a link for a set of Yosh cams for $500 that he wants to put in his engine because he "needs" more motor.

Beyond the initial sending out the forks to be reworked and replacing the stock shock you are not going to get racers to do anything further. The only exception is if there is a problem like bottoming or leaking.

[Pussy]

It sounds like a lot of US riders are doing themselves a disservice.
My FGK cartridges don't have a single "as delivered" setting in them.
The compression and rebound valving settings are custom-for-me set, along with the top out springs... as are the main springs.
The TTX on the rear HAS got stock(as delivered) valving, but has been sprung for me. I'm happy with it's performance.
All this set up is for a road riding enthusiast who only does 2-3 trackdays a year.
So if an average road rider can get/feel the benefits of properly set up suspension... the sky is the limit for the experts who take the time to have the job done properly

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

The TTX on the rear HAS got stock(as delivered) valving, but has been sprung for me.
Most will change the springs if their is an issue.

I think the biggest problem here is that there isn't a lot of info on suspension and how things work.

Another thing is finding a competent shop.

In the US the best suspension tuners work with the factories. Beyond that you have a very few shops that will give you a good quality product. All knowledge is kept in house though. Part of that is the competitive nature of the business, part of it that people are too busy to explain stuff to the "internet experts", and the third part is that tuners are afraid to open their mouths as to expose how much they don't know.

The majority of the shops/people out there are clueless.

[Robert Taylor]

Didn't get to see much racing at Manfield last weekend. How did Sam go after his "shocking" suspension had been all fixed up?

Hopeless, for all to see.

[Robert Taylor]

Cold sweating, unable to get comfortable and the feeling theres insects crawing under the skin.

I want my standard SV suspension back as this race/trackday setup is dam uncomfortable everyday ridng on the road!

Sort it then and stop grizzling about it. A well sorted trackday setup wouldnt neccessarily be uncomfortable on the road.

[Robert Taylor]

One of the most common things you hear in the states is that guys don't like top out springs because "you can't get proper sag settings". I don't think top out springs are really understood in the US.

Another thing is that suspension tuning in my country is a one size fits all approach. Everyone likes to have x compression stack & y rebound stack they can put in every customer's forks. Obviously you need a stack to start with as a baseline, but most people (including the customers) do not want to go beyond that.

In the past all the bikes came with short stiff top out springs that I personally don't think moved all that much. Now you have new bikes coming out with longer softer top out springs and that introduces a new variable. A new variable means more work, and that means more headaches.


I don't know those OTT guys and that video was the first I had ever seen them.

I am not making any excuses, but part of that is the market place in the US. Excluding the top level riders/teams, people will not pay to revalve their Ohlins or Penske shock. You just will not get them to do it.

The reasoning behind this is -
1. You are talking to someone who has no clue about what is going on with the bike and what they should be looking for.
2. The guy's mindset is that he just paid $1k+ USD for an Ohlins shock and that Ohlins is the best and how could anyone do anything better.
3. Since they just paid $1k+ USD for that shock they are not going to spend any more $$ on it.
4. All the riders over here are concerned about horsepower which goes back to #1. I talk to guys over here all the time and they all think they need more motor.

They talk about how they all get passed coming off the turn. You try to explain to them about corner speed but they just don't get it.

I spoke with my friend the club racer about spending a couple of hundred dollars getting his Ohlins shock revalved and his answer was that he didn't have the money. The next day he is sending me a link for a set of Yosh cams for $500 that he wants to put in his engine because he "needs" more motor.

Beyond the initial sending out the forks to be reworked and replacing the stock shock you are not going to get racers to do anything further. The only exception is if there is a problem like bottoming or leaking.

Yes those attitudes do also prevail here to some extent. Its amazing how so many people think shocks are ''one size fits all'' and those external adjusters can magically accomodate every possible scenario from installing the shock in a scooter to into a Mack truck!
The important thing to remember is that a racing shock / cartridge is still a tunable tool. If you want to go faster then sooner or later it comes apart. The important thing also is to know if whoever pulls it apart has access to the setting banks and constant updates and if they have actually had factory training to do so. I suspect there are a lot of ''experts'' that have popped up in the States. The worst are those who constantly feed their own egos and spin tall tales!
The bar has been lifted quite high here simply because we have been willing to go well beyond external ''springs and clickers''.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1129478827]The less sorted out your front is the more need there is for very effective topping out control in the rear shock, under brakes. ''Pitch balance control"
My experience is that top out springs ( when chosen correctly ) assist most in the braking zone of corner entry.



Agreed with what you say here Robert, when we were doing all that test work together a few years back now, Your above comment, was and is exactually correct

I remember the 3 shocks I had you build for the CBR 600 I raced and won on, the key to each one after we had internal settings that I liked, was different top out spring in each shock for me to test, and the difference realy surprised me, the rate of the top out spring has a huge effect on how the bike behaves going into a turn with the brakes on, ie, geometry completly altered, Front down, rear up! ( ''Pitch balance control" ) and the top out spring allows the wheel to stay in contact with the ground better, by giving it controll at the end of it,s stroke whilst breaking, they are nothing more than a ballancing device, but a very Important device

Now don't get started on front Top out springs guys, Robert had me doing days at Manfeild a few years back testing all this stuff, my forks and shocks have done more miles on a courier than the bikes ever did, and I loved it.

Yes, thinking is just as divided between the US and European companies with respect to front top out springs.

[Robert Taylor]

Most will change the springs if their is an issue.

I think the biggest problem here is that there isn't a lot of info on suspension and how things work.

Another thing is finding a competent shop.

In the US the best suspension tuners work with the factories. Beyond that you have a very few shops that will give you a good quality product. All knowledge is kept in house though. Part of that is the competitive nature of the business, part of it that people are too busy to explain stuff to the "internet experts", and the third part is that tuners are afraid to open their mouths as to expose how much they don't know.

The majority of the shops/people out there are clueless.

I can well understand the guys at the top of their game being protective of often hard earned knowledge and information from the factories that they have only earnt through committment, investment and loyalty to the product. There are a lot of parasites out there and Ive often been milked for knowledge and been too forthcoming to people with either egos to satisfy or an agenda to take all they can get and bugger any ethics about it all.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

I can well understand the guys at the top of their game being protective of often hard earned knowledge and information from the factories that they have only earnt through committment, investment and loyalty to the product. There are a lot of parasites out there and Ive often been milked for knowledge and been too forthcoming to people with either egos to satisfy or an agenda to take all they can get and bugger any ethics about it all.
I have been there with stuff but in the end no one learns anything and the sport dies out like it did this year in my country.

Back to the top out springs, what is the range of the spring selection from Ohlins, from soft to hard?

[slowpoke]

You guys have been quite diplomatic towards the customers but aren't we (racers) the main issue with a lot of this stuff?

It's easy for riders to twist the throttle and feel the instant difference of adding more motor, to explore the limits of hp, even if it's only on the straight bits.

It's exponentially more difficult for a rider to consistently explore the limits of braking/cornering without exceeding that limit. The guys who can ride that knife edge and analyse what is happening while they are doing it are few and far between.

Which makes what Robert and co are trying to extoll a very difficult sell. It's like trying to describe colours to a blind person. What is it you are feeling? What's causing it? What is required to reduce or improve that feeling? Is what you've felt good or bad?

Without the benefit of a day (or days) at the track and your own personal suspension tech it's bloody hard to even quantify alterations to suspension. Most of us would try to assess something at a race or track/test day send off our components for adjustment (eg: top out spring change) and tick off the weeks on the calendar until we can get to the track again. At which time the weather, track conditions and rider performance could be totally different.

Which unfortunately means that the tail is left to wag the dog. Beyond spring changes and clicker adjustments we are relying on the ever patient Robert, Shaun and co (poor bugger's!) suggesting how to improve the handling of our bikes if we approach them with an issue. We simply don't have the skills, knowledge or even language to know what to ask for. Sad but true.

[GSVR]

Sort it then and stop grizzling about it. A well sorted trackday setup wouldnt neccessarily be uncomfortable on the road.

"A well sorted trackday setup wouldn't neccessarily be uncomfortable on the road" if... the roads where as as smooth as the track, had the same level of grip and we rode at the same speeds as we do on the track.

I for one don't have the same confidence that I can brake as hard or expect the same level of grip through the corners on the road as I would find on the track.

The most hardcore of the road riders I know ride big heavy tourers that they have no desire to take to the track as they are built for comfort before outright performance.

Suspension aside you have to have the right bike for what you are doing and a bike set up for the track makes neither a good commuter or tourer.

[Robert Taylor]

You guys have been quite diplomatic towards the customers but aren't we (racers) the main issue with a lot of this stuff?

It's easy for riders to twist the throttle and feel the instant difference of adding more motor, to explore the limits of hp, even if it's only on the straight bits.

It's exponentially more difficult for a rider to consistently explore the limits of braking/cornering without exceeding that limit. The guys who can ride that knife edge and analyse what is happening while they are doing it are few and far between.

Which makes what Robert and co are trying to extoll a very difficult sell. It's like trying to describe colours to a blind person. What is it you are feeling? What's causing it? What is required to reduce or improve that feeling? Is what you've felt good or bad?

Without the benefit of a day (or days) at the track and your own personal suspension tech it's bloody hard to even quantify alterations to suspension. Most of us would try to assess something at a race or track/test day send off our components for adjustment (eg: top out spring change) and tick off the weeks on the calendar until we can get to the track again. At which time the weather, track conditions and rider performance could be totally different.

Which unfortunately means that the tail is left to wag the dog. Beyond spring changes and clicker adjustments we are relying on the ever patient Robert, Shaun and co (poor bugger's!) suggesting how to improve the handling of our bikes if we approach them with an issue. We simply don't have the skills, knowledge or even language to know what to ask for. Sad but true.

Very good points, good suspension gets you to a new higher plateau, but being human those of us with higher expectations are inquisitive to keep pushing for more knowledge.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

You guys have been quite diplomatic towards the customers but aren't we (racers) the main issue with a lot of this stuff?
I have always thought that one of the main reasons the factory teams are so successful is that the only thing they rely on the rider to do is ride the bike.

[slowpoke]

I should add here that the suspension seminars run by Robert/CKT have been invaluable for racers looking to improve their knowlege and performance. To actually see and hold the components you guys are talking about and to discuss the effects of various changes, or different ways of achieving a certain action has been almost a relief. Kinda like scratching an itch you didn't know you had.

Using that knowledge is another thing altogether but at least it gives a starting point.

[Robert Taylor]

I have always thought that one of the main reasons the factory teams are so successful is that the only thing they rely on the rider to do is ride the bike.

And the HMI component is always replaceable!!!

[Robert Taylor]

I should add here that the suspension seminars run by Robert/CKT have been invaluable for racers looking to improve their knowlege and performance. To actually see and hold the components you guys are talking about and to discuss the effects of various changes, or different ways of achieving a certain action has been almost a relief. Kinda like scratching an itch you didn't know you had.

Using that knowledge is another thing altogether but at least it gives a starting point.

We are running more of those seminars in December with Peter Goddard. If anyone is interested please e-mail to me, robert@crownkiwi.co.nz

Available only to those who use CKT for suspension.