Close Up tonight (22 October)

[MadDuck]

...just saw some blurb before the news that there will be a feature on Close Up tonight.

Something about not making bikers angry :banana:

[nothingflash]

Yeah saw that too... shall be interesting.

[nothingflash]

This is from the Close Up web page;

"Standby Wellington - angry bikers plan to descend on the capital in their thousands, angry over massive hikes in registration fees. But first they take on ACC."

[Katman]

Lets hope we don't see more "it's all the cagers fault" bullshit.

[davereid]

Lets hope we don't see more "it's all the cagers fault" bullshit.

Fuck me, I hardly ever give red bling but you qualify big time.

66% of collisions are caused by the car driver.
11% of accidents that dont invlove a collision are caused by the car driver.

Find better facts, quote 'em and I'll read 'em.

Otherwise please stop dribbling in a public place.

[nothingflash]

Latest ad says something along the lines of "find out how motorcyclists plan to paralyze the capital". I just hope this isn't the start of a slander campaign against motorcyclists so when Joe public sees protest action he'll think - ah yes, here's those fuckers i've heard all about.

[Katman]

Fuck me, I hardly ever give red bling but you qualify big time.

66% of collisions are caused by the car driver.
11% of accidents that dont invlove a collision are caused by the car driver.

Find better facts, quote 'em and I'll read 'em.

Otherwise please stop dribbling in a public place.

Go check some real figures before you start looking fuckin' stupid.

[FJRider]

Lets hope we don't see more "it's all the cagers fault" bullshit.

but it is ... isn't it. :wacko:

Must be somebodys fault ... can't be our fault ..... :oi-grr:

[dmc]

So if we paid the total cost for ACC we would be paying $3300 a year in levies to cover costs that means it cost ACC @$400 million dollars a year in claims?

[EatOrBeEaten]

Ixion- you are AWESOME!!!

You got the ACC guy stumped on the figures big time, you came over really well and that guy sounded like a pillock. Good work! :2thumbsup

[DidJit]

Well done Ixion! Way to go! :woohoo:

[Pussy]

Well done, Les!
The "ACC gentleman" looked like he'd been caught with his dick out!

[Pixie]

Excellent interview Les.
The ACC drone was shown to be a dithering idiot

[mynameis]

Hmmmmmmmm.....

[sAsLEX]

Well done, Les!
The "ACC gentleman" looked like he'd been caught with his dick out!

Yes he had facts to match and beat the ACC claims and showed him up using his own!

Why does no one mention rugby? Is our nation that scared of the consequences of pricing rugby out of peoples reach?

[THundy]

Basically were screwed....The govt and ACC have made their mind up...that never listen to any of the arguements, acc are getting shit from govt, they respond by hitting any small groups and everyone is happy....
My gut tells me I will be paying $850 a year to have my bike legal...
Pissed off!!!! yes, hikoi!!! no, won't do anything. We need legal guys to lobby govt..and the BRONZ guy isn't good enough sorry!

[Naki Rat]

Well done Les. Calmed the congestion fears somewhat and had Mr. ACC floundering :2thumbsup All coming along nicely.

[Pixie]

Lets hope we don't see more "it's all the cagers fault" bullshit.

Do you always have to be such a cunt?

[JAB]

Horaay 4 the BRONZ representitive. Pity the ACC Gentleman shy'd away from the last answer and deviated to stats, which when received should shed a heap of light on the maths and perhaps have ACC review their approach!!!

[gunrunner]

$3300 each year in costs . Ok well dont we pay bout 45% for each litre of gas we buy in taxes , i rego'ed my car the other week and the majority of that is tax and what we pay already pay tax/acc . Chances are we are paying more than the $3300 stated . Why dont they publically release the figures . :argh:

[mynameis]

Basically were screwed....The govt and ACC have made their mind up...that never listen to any of the arguements, acc are getting shit from govt, they respond by hitting any small groups and everyone is happy....
My gut tells me I will be paying $850 a year to have my bike legal...
Pissed off!!!! yes, hikoi!!! no, won't do anything. We need legal guys to lobby govt..and the BRONZ guy isn't good enough sorry!


Hmmmmmmm.....

[retro asian]

Les owned ACC :2thumbsup

[Oakie]

Fecking brilliant. Hung the ACC fella using his own figures. Awesome work Ixion. I take back all the bad things I ever thought about you.
(Perhaps we need a T shirt with his face on it?!)

[THundy]

Joe public would have a different view of the close up interview...they believe the suits! BRONZ guy is doing something at least, but get real...100,000 maori hikoied for weeks and got diddly squat...

[mynameis]

Les owned ACC :2thumbsup

Just spray and walk away retro...you really think he owned ACC??

[Pussy]

Quite frankly, McLea looked as though he wouldn't know the difference between shit and putty until his windows fell out

[scumdog]

Well done Les. Calmed the congestion fears somewhat and had Mr. ACC floundering :2thumbsup All coming along nicely.

I concur.





(Where were the figure re off-road, quads etc prangs being collectively called 'motor-bike crashes'?? While Mr ACC's figures may be accurate I'd love to see where they came from)

[retro asian]

Just spray and walk away retro...you really think he owned ACC??

I just liked the look on that guy's face when he was trying to think of answers...

[munterk6]

nice one Les, well done mate....you won that debate! :banana:

[Genestho]

Basically were screwed....The govt and ACC have made their mind up...that never listen to any of the arguements, acc are getting shit from govt, they respond by hitting any small groups and everyone is happy....
My gut tells me I will be paying $850 a year to have my bike legal...
Pissed off!!!! yes, hikoi!!! no, won't do anything. We need legal guys to lobby govt..and the BRONZ guy isn't good enough sorry!
No ya don't need legal guys to lobby govt.;)
Good Job Lesinator!
You're so forceful! Hopefully you can get that raw data!!! Also the congestion re-assurance was a smart moooove!

[AD345]

Well done Les!

[carver]

les looked a bit teary

[MadDuck]

Where were the figure re off-road, quads etc prangs being collectively called 'motor-bike crashes'?? While Mr ACC's figures may be accurate I'd love to see where they came from

Only so many points or questions you can get across in such a short time.

At least the ACC guy said he would send BRONZ the figures. Then at least a defence/argument can be put forward?

[Connor]

Nice job Ixion, and thanks .

[zahria]

Only so many points or questions you get get across in such a short time.

At least the ACC guy said he would send BRONZ the figures. Then at least a defence/argument can be put forward?

Yeah, that will be good to see. There are so many figures floating around that I dont believ any of the versions.
I suspect we are screwed as well, the pressure needs to be placed back on the ACC to either go blameless, or Levy every sport/recreation/risk

[MIXONE]

Thanks ixion.I for one appreciate what you are doing on MY behalf.

[THundy]

I really think the proposals are unfair, cyclists, rugby injuries, and many other acc claimaints don't pay a fair share...never has, never will..
The only hope is to lobby politicians, this is a minority government and lobbying greens, act, maori party will have an effect...
my two cents ($770) worth...

[zahria]

Thanks ixion.I for one appreciate what you are doing on MY behalf.

concur!! excellent work

[Katman]

So if it's going to cost $10,000 for that information why the fuck aren't we looking at ways of raising that money?

[martybabe]

Well I thought, as someone not used to doing TV interviews, Ixion came over incredibly well.

Nah, fooking awesome, it takes some bollocks to stand up on national TV and give a good account of yourself and Ixion did just that, in fact he did us all proud, Well played mate and thanks on behalf of me.

I can't send beer via the interweb so have some bling and my respect sir. :niceone:

[McWild]

I think that was a very good interview.

I'm glad there wasn't any bashing of rugby or dirt bikes because in such a short space of time it would have been difficult to make those claims come across as more than just petty "But but but they don't have to pay why should IIIIIII" statements.

Good work on keeping the interview down to earth.

[dmc]

We need all the support we can get, BRONZ are fighting for all of us but I think the public face of motorcycles is well know racers like Aaron Slight and the King brothers etc would add some weight to the argument, look at how well the movie the fastest indian did with the general public, if we could get the general public associating motorcycling as a New Zealand way of life we would gain huge support.

[Pussy]

So if it's going to cost $10,000 for that information why the fuck aren't we looking at ways of raising that money?
The "ACC gentleman" reckoned he was going to give BRONZ the info... how true that is, however...

[Owl]

While Mr ACC's figures may be accurate I'd love to see where they came from)

Accurate?

Isn't there something like 110,000 registered bikes on the road? So if we should be paying $3700 in levies (according to Mr ACC), that would equate to $407,000,000!

Something not quite right me thinks!:oi-grr:

[RavenR44]

So if it's going to cost $10,000 for that information why the fuck aren't we looking at ways of raising that money?

You're really not sober much, are you?

[Genestho]

So if it's going to cost $10,000 for that information why the fuck aren't we looking at ways of raising that money?
Nah ACC guy said he was going to make sure he gets the info, I'd say free of charge! Considering ACC guy reconed he found it hard to believe they'd been quoted that amount.

[mdooher]

Les:"you told us it would cost $10,000"
ACC spanker:"I find that Hard to believe"
someone in ACC better put a magazine down their pants tomorrow

[Pussy]

Considering ACC guy reconed he found it hard to believe they'd been quoted that amount.

That Acc guy was miles out of his depth. Just a glorified figurehead with little knowledge

[Katman]

The "ACC gentleman" reckoned he was going to give BRONZ the info... how true that is, however...

I don't think that the information that the ACC guy was prepared to hand over is the information that we need. We need full disclosure of all motorcycle accident information. Not just bare numbers.

If that exposes dirt bike riders and farm bike riders as being accountable, so be it.

[mynameis]

So if it's going to cost $10,000 for that information why the fuck aren't we looking at ways of raising that money?

Others have spoken.


We need all the support we can get, BRONZ are fighting for all of us but I think the public face of motorcycles is well know racers like Aaron Slight and the King brothers etc would add some weight to the argument, look at how well the movie the fastest indian did with the general public, if we could get the general public associating motorcycling as a New Zealand way of life we would gain huge support.

Valid point.

[NighthawkNZ]

Accurate?

Isn't there something like 110,000 registered bikes on the road? So if we should be paying $3700 in levies (according to Mr ACC), that would equate to $407,000,000!

Something not quite right me thinks!:oi-grr:

assuming the registered for the full year?

but yes the math still doesn't work...

[nothingflash]

I think that was a very good interview.

I'm glad there wasn't any bashing of rugby or dirt bikes because in such a short space of time it would have been difficult to make those claims come across as more than just petty "But but but they don't have to pay why should IIIIIII" statements.

Good work on keeping the interview down to earth.

Yep, good on you Ixion - a great interview. You had a small number of very clear points and had the ACC man on the ropes. I don't think it matters who at PWC looks at the figures... $77 x 3.whatever million is still over $200M!

[Genestho]

That Acc guy was miles out of his depth. Just a glorified figurehead with little knowledge

The first statement was very self assured, but after Les was done he was struggling wasn't he?

[Marmoot]

Fuck me, I hardly ever give red bling but you qualify big time.

66% of collisions are caused by the car driver.
11% of accidents that dont invlove a collision are caused by the car driver.

Find better facts, quote 'em and I'll read 'em.

Otherwise please stop dribbling in a public place.

I don't like Katman either, but I think this needs clarification (i.e., "katman's right, you're wrong!")
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

Single vehicle, no rider fault: 3%
Single vehicle, rider fault: 26%
Multi vehicle, rider fault: 25%
Multi vehicle, rider partial fault: 7%
Multi vehicle, car's fault: 39%

So, based on faults:
- no one's fault: 3%
- rider makes a mistake: 58%
- cager's fault: 39%

Just feel lucky I didn't red bling you, but I believe you owe an apology and/or Katman can red bling you.

And I need to add that ACC is no fault system. Meaning the cause of accident should be irrelevant to the levy. The only affecting factors should be the average cost of claims and the number of claims per year. In other words, we can have 99% of the bikers crashing and still low levy if no one is injured. But that's in an utopian world I think.

[Motu]

You should have asked Mark Sainsbury to come down on his own bike Les.

[Tony.OK]

Fancy going to the low level of saying car owners would have to pay $70 odd to subsidise bloody bikers..................that screamed dirty tactics to me.

Like cage owners don't already think badly of us.............fucking Govt bullshit!!

[NighthawkNZ]

Fancy going to the low level of saying car owners would have to pay $70 odd to subsidise bloody bikers..................that screamed dirty tactics to me.

Like cage owners don't already think badly of us.............fucking Govt bullshit!!

and most bikers are subsidising them self anyway

[Blackbird]

Very good interview and well done Les. I still think we need another string to the bow as well though, namely that ACC rises do nothing to address the root cause, namely poor driver skills. It literally is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. If driver skills don't change, then it's simply cost plus.

[zahria]

Fancy going to the low level of saying car owners would have to pay $70 odd to subsidise bloody bikers..................that screamed dirty tactics to me.

Like cage owners don't already think badly of us.............fucking Govt bullshit!!

I tried reading you message, honest. But bouncing breasts are slightly distracting...

[Pussy]

The other great "Sir Les"! :D

[MadDuck]

Fancy going to the low level of saying car owners would have to pay $70 odd to subsidise bloody bikers..................that screamed dirty tactics to me.


I own a car and register it so I am subsidising myself arent I?

[FJRider]

I don't think that the information that the ACC guy was prepared to hand over is the information that we need. We need full disclosure of all motorcycle accident information. Not just bare numbers.

If that exposes dirt bike riders and farm bike riders as being accountable, so be it.

I don't believe it ..... you actuallly said something I can actually agree with ..... :whistle:



I must have misread your post :innocent:

[mdooher]

I tried reading you message, honest. But bouncing breasts are slightly distracting...

I thought it was just me:whistle:

[FJRider]

I own a car and register it so I am subsidising myself arent I?

Buy another car and subsidise me too ..... :hug:

[Tony.OK]

I own a car and register it so I am subsidising myself arent I?

I'm sorry but you still need to pay another $3000 + to cover costs............sheesh!

Can someone give me the auditors #, i'll let him do my figures..........I'll be rich, rich I tells ya:2thumbsup

[Rayray401]

hmmmm...we need some politicians help....right now do bikers really expect our protect will work from Les' interview? even though he did really well?....personally i dont think politicians would really care eh regardless of who..John Key or Helen Clark..theyre politicians...we need politicians to lobby it..someone like Obama might do....

[MadDuck]

Can someone give me the auditors #, i'll let him do my figures..........I'll be rich, rich I tells ya:2thumbsup

Thats maybe why ACC use PWC Sydney and not any of the PWC in New Zealand...:wacko:

Burn the accountants

[mdooher]

hmmmm...we need some politicians help....right now do bikers really expect our protect will work from Les' interview? even though he did really well?....personally i dont think politicians would really care eh regardless of who..John Key or Helen Clark..theyre politicians...we need politicians to lobby it..someone like Obama might do....

Act or Maori party would have the most impact....maybe we could get a photo of Rodney on a yellow Duc...in his yellow jacket

[bogan]

damn, missed it, not on tvnz site yet either by the looks of it, unless im just being a numpty and havent found the right place to click, anyone else found it yet?

[Marknz]

Good onya Les, that's the spirit! :2thumbsup

Any twat with a Doctorate, who should be well practised in researching figures to have gotten to those lofty heights, should have double/triple/quadruple checked the figures himself before going on national television. What a muppet.

Go BRONZ!

ACC, you've been owned :banana:

[SixPackBack]

Good onya Les, fantastic effort. To the doubters I would say get behind BRONZ, stop bitching and show a united front.

[slofox]

damn, missed it, not on tvnz site yet either by the looks of it, unless im just being a numpty and havent found the right place to click, anyone else found it yet?

Not up til tomorrow by the looks....

[Maha]

damn, missed it, not on tvnz site yet either by the looks of it, unless im just being a numpty and havent found the right place to click, anyone else found it yet?

I missed it too, got home late, well late for me....6.45.
Hope the link will be put up at some stage, or I could go and look for it myself, but im lazy as.

[Flip]

Like any war this will be won one battle at a time. ACC got caught with their collective pants down they won't be easily placed in this position again.
However ACC was caught lying on national television and the minister will not be happy with Dr Bob who will have his botty smacked tomorow morning.
This was a great win the media was clearly on our side. Keep debunking the ACC numbers when ever possible, keep in mind their books do not balance and now we all know why.
Les you did a brillant job. I owe you a beer.

[Flip]

Good onya Les, that's the spirit! :2thumbsup

Any twat with a Doctorate, who should be well practised in researching figures to have gotten to those lofty heights, should have double/triple/quadruple checked the figures himself before going on national television. What a muppet.

Go BRONZ!

ACC, you've been owned :banana:

The great thing is that they have published these numbers, and if this basic data is wrong then the whole application is wrong.

[FJRider]

Basically were screwed....The govt and ACC have made their mind up...that never listen to any of the arguements, acc are getting shit from govt, they respond by hitting any small groups and everyone is happy....
My gut tells me I will be paying $850 a year to have my bike legal...
Pissed off!!!! yes, hikoi!!! no, won't do anything. We need legal guys to lobby govt..and the BRONZ guy isn't good enough sorry!

BULLSHIT ... It ain't over yet ... :bash:

[Kevnz]

Another great interview Les.:woohoo:It makes you wonder how many bullshit statistics we get feed every day out of the Beehive.

[pzkpfw]

http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/s2009-10-22-video-3082363

But don't go there 'till I've finished watching...


Edit: you buggers. Now it's frozen.


Les was FANTASTIC.

Looked like a good ordinary Kiwi bloke, versus the suit who didn't have his facts straight.

Wonderful.

[THundy]

Yes, They feed us what they want the general public to hear to suit the agenda they are wanting. If I could give any advise, get a politician to fight for us...doesn't the labour guy ride a bike? who else owns/rides???
Get smart now....
E-mail your local Mp, Nick Smith, the assoc ACC minister, the laeder of all parties....

[NighthawkNZ]

E-mail your local Mp, Nick Smith, the assoc ACC minister, the laeder of all parties....

We have been and we all get the same stardard reply

[bogan]

http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/s2009-10-22-video-3082363

But don't go there 'till I've finished watching...


just finished watching it, fucking brilliant, that oughta stir things up, good on ya Les

[mynameis]

Yes, They feed us what they want the general public to hear to suit the agenda they are wanting. If I could give any advise, get a politician to fight for us...doesn't the labour guy ride a bike? who else owns/rides???
Get smart now....
E-mail your local Mp, Nick Smith, the assoc ACC minister, the laeder of all parties....

What email Dr Nick Smith to come out and protest for us :lol:

[colinok]

I don't like Katman either, but I think this needs clarification (i.e., "katman's right, you're wrong!")
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf

Single vehicle, no rider fault: 3%
Single vehicle, rider fault: 26%
Multi vehicle, rider fault: 25%
Multi vehicle, rider partial fault: 7%
Multi vehicle, car's fault: 39%

So, based on faults:
- no one's fault: 3%
- rider makes a mistake: 58%
- cager's fault: 39%

Just feel lucky I didn't red bling you, but I believe you owe an apology and/or Katman can red bling you.

And I need to add that ACC is no fault system. Meaning the cause of accident should be irrelevant to the levy. The only affecting factors should be the average cost of claims and the number of claims per year. In other words, we can have 99% of the bikers crashing and still low levy if no one is injured. But that's in an utopian world I think.
Who decided the fault in these cases? My daughter (in a car) got hit from BEHIND by a petrol tanker and the cops held her accountable for not being seen just because she was on her Restricted Licence! Seems on that count the most vulnerable is the cause of most accidents so of course bikes are usually the cause.

[Slyer]

Good work! I'm happy that Mark was nice to you as well.
The guy in the suit has "Prick" written all over him. :D

[Scouse]

hmmmm...we need some politicians help....right now do bikers really expect our protect will work from Les' interview? even though he did really well?....personally i dont think politicians would really care eh regardless of who..John Key or Helen Clark..theyre politicians...we need politicians to lobby it..someone like Obama might do....Me no no you sa wat

[nothingflash]

Me no no you sa wat

Yeah - in case you have a good point can you say that again?

[MyGSXF]

Looked like a good ordinary Kiwi bloke, versus the suit who didn't have his facts straight.

It sure did!

Well done Les!!! :2thumbsup

[Trollkid]

If you are after some stat's... A fellow rider who is a researcher put this submission together based on the facts on the ACC website. Shows that ACC have not looked at their own data!:mad:

[JMemonic]

Well done again Ixion, your doing a great job, now where do I send this?

Dr McLey (sp?) I truly disagree that as a motorcyclist I am more likely to be involved in an accident as you publicly stated on TVNZ's show closeup. I agree that should I be involved in a crash I am more likely to sustain injury, although this may be as minor as some bruising due to my purchasing appropriate gear.

Motorcycle accidents have many causes some are no doubt down to riders not riding to the conditions but many may have other contributing factors such as the poor conditions of some of our roads, some may say that is not riding to the conditions but when you are suddenly faced with grit in a corner on a section of road that is supposed to be a high speed road and there has been no warning signs to indicate this possibility who is at fault. Would the ACC figures would record that as a solo motorcycle accident as no other vehicle was involved regardless of the fact the grit and lack of signage was a contributing factor, or lets imagine for a moment it was diesel spilt on the road from a vehicle that was known about but noting had been done to notify motorists of the dangers. Please note these are not hypothetical situations.

Or as an of another vehicle involved, but not in a manner that would cause damage to that vehicle, the ignorant motorist who in her rush to go where she was going, on converging lanes in a 60kph area of Christchurch attempted to force her way into the lane I occupied, I was travelling straight, had checked both my mirrors and blind spot, was indicating to merge when a car that was 20-30 meters behind at the start of the manoeuvre was suddenly alongside on my left, travelling at speed far in excess of the posted limit and literally forced herself into the space I needed to occupy to maintain safety, I was forced to ride between her and a line of oncoming traffic, in an unsafe manner as she continued to move to her right giving the appearance of intending to force me into the oncoming vehicles.

My saving factor was the additional training I have undertaken at my own expense, unsubsidised by ACC.

[carver]

any ideas what we do if ACC has its figures spot on?

[SixPackBack]

any ideas what we do if ACC has its figures spot on?

No chance. Even a cursory calculation creates more questions than it answers.

[nothingflash]

Well done again Ixion, your doing a great job, now where do I send this?

Dr McLey (sp?) I truly disagree that as a motorcyclist I am more likely to be involved in an accident as you publicly stated on TVNZ's show closeup. I agree that should I be involved in a crash I am more likely to sustain injury, although this may be as minor as some bruising due to my purchasing appropriate gear.

Motorcycle accidents have many causes some are no doubt down to riders not riding to the conditions but many may have other contributing factors such as the poor conditions of some of our roads, some may say that is not riding to the conditions but when you are suddenly faced with grit in a corner on a section of road that is supposed to be a high speed road and there has been no warning signs to indicate this possibility who is at fault. Would the ACC figures would record that as a solo motorcycle accident as no other vehicle was involved regardless of the fact the grit and lack of signage was a contributing factor, or lets imagine for a moment it was diesel spilt on the road from a vehicle that was known about but noting had been done to notify motorists of the dangers. Please note these are not hypothetical situations.

Or as an of another vehicle involved, but not in a manner that would cause damage to that vehicle, the ignorant motorist who in her rush to go where she was going, on converging lanes in a 60kph area of Christchurch attempted to force her way into the lane I occupied, I was travelling straight, had checked both my mirrors and blind spot, was indicating to merge when a car that was 20-30 meters behind at the start of the manoeuvre was suddenly alongside on my left, travelling at speed far in excess of the posted limit and literally forced herself into the space I needed to occupy to maintain safety, I was forced to ride between her and a line of oncoming traffic, in an unsafe manner as she continued to move to her right giving the appearance of intending to force me into the oncoming vehicles.

My saving factor was the additional training I have undertaken at my own expense, unsubsidised by ACC.

Nice one - are you able to send it in to Close Up perhaps? Maybe via their website?

[mossy1200]

Who decided the fault in these cases? My daughter (in a car) got hit from BEHIND by a petrol tanker and the cops held her accountable for not being seen just because she was on her Restricted Licence! Seems on that count the most vulnerable is the cause of most accidents so of course bikes are usually the cause.

I second that.All the claims and where does the info get lodged about faults unless the fuzz comes.Fuzz dont go to every crash.
Next thing is all these MX and dirty bike accidents that get chucked in the mix are hardly going to have cars involved are they.

ACC form reads.I was jumping the river bank when f..k me but a car was jumping from the other side and I was unable to avoid him without bailing and braking ankle on log.

[Supermac Jr]

any ideas what we do if ACC has its figures spot on?

Good point - Then we find fault with their assumptions...

[NighthawkNZ]

any ideas what we do if ACC has its figures spot on?

The first question is why publish false data?

[Ronin]

Do you always have to be such a cunt?

Yes... Yes he does... It's genetic

[JMemonic]

Nice one - are you able to send it in to Close Up perhaps? Maybe via their website?

Done but it may take 24 hours to get to the site.

[NighthawkNZ]

My saving factor was the additional training I have undertaken at my own expense, unsubsidised by ACC.

And a bigger bike with the horses


oh wait

[EJK]

Watching the video now. Awesome Ixion.

[PrincessBandit]

I don't think that the information that the ACC guy was prepared to hand over is the information that we need. We need full disclosure of all motorcycle accident information. Not just bare numbers.

If that exposes dirt bike riders and farm bike riders as being accountable, so be it.

Yes, I was interested to see him say he'd give over the figures but looked decidedly shifty when Les asked "and the data behind it please" (ok, maybe he didn't say please...) I for one will be interested to know what actually gets handed over if this man is true to his word.



Act or Maori party would have the most impact....maybe we could get a photo of Rodney on a yellow Duc...in his yellow jacket

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure Tariana was cozying up with John the other day on the telly saying they'd support Nationals in this. I could be wrong though (it has been known to happen).


Who decided the fault in these cases? My daughter (in a car) got hit from BEHIND by a petrol tanker and the cops held her accountable for not being seen just because she was on her Restricted Licence! Seems on that count the most vulnerable is the cause of most accidents so of course bikes are usually the cause.

Unfortunately for us we rarely have any say in how the stats are jotted down. It does seem dodgy for the police to use the Restricted as making her accountable for not being seen.


Well done again Ixion, your doing a great job, now where do I send this? .......

Dr McLey (sp?) I truly disagree that as a motorcyclist I am more likely to be involved in an accident as you publicly stated on TVNZ's show closeup. .


I think the "involved" word was possibly a slip of the tongue when he said that. If it is actually what he intended to say then he's an idiot.

Yes I too think Les did a great job. I'm sure the suit would have loved him to come across as a less than intelligent spouting off the top of his head ignorant yobbo rather than the well thought out prepared man he faced. Time is always extremely limited in these situations and I think the reasonable and restrained way Les spoke gave a very good impression to Joe Public. Let's face it, lots of people couldn't really give a shit about something that doesn't relate directly to them (i.e. non-riders in this case) and even more so if the sector it's aimed at is seen as unsavoury or, in an extreme, bordering on criminal. Les did a great job allowing a differing view of bikers instead of being seen as a group which probably ranks alongside "boy racers" in many people's opinions.

[Dadpole]

The first question is why publish false data?
ACC would say it is not false data, just that there 'may' have been small errors in interpretation.
True or false, the best thing to do is spread the fear among the populace. Let people know that they will be next on the ACC "cost recovery" exercise. Let car owners know of previous ACC mutterings about:
Increased levies for cars not meeting the latest frontal impact ratings.
Increased levies for cars with large capacity engines.
Spread the fear!

[PrincessBandit]

Yes... Yes he does... It's genetic

Hey sweety, leave genes out of it.

[NighthawkNZ]

ACC would say it is not false data, just that there 'may' have been small errors in interpretation.
True or false, the best thing to do is spread the fear among the populace. Let people know that they will be next on the ACC "cost recovery" exercise. Let car owners know of previous ACC mutterings about:
Increased levies for cars not meeting the latest frontal impact ratings.
Increased levies for cars with large capacity engines.
Spread the fear!

small errors...
130,213 x 3700 = $481,788,100 just under half a billion (even if not all regestered etc still does add up)

the combined car and bike claims is only $270,828,000

somewhere something is simply not adding up



270,828,000 / 2,919,151 = $92.78 levy required by each car, bike and moped to cover this years claims

[JMemonic]

I think the "involved" word was possibly a slip of the tongue when he said that. If it is actually what he intended to say then he's an idiot.


Not sure about that being a slip of the tongue as they (ACC, and the minister) have used that language in the media before, I am sure its a well thought out line, there was a statement made motorcycles were 16 percent more likely to be involved in a crash recently.

[eelracing]

The first question is why publish false data?

Because National are trying to pull a snowjob on the NZ public.

They are bullshitting the figures to pay for FORECASTED future costs.

And remember it suits their agenda (they pledged this pre election)to privatise ACC for their business toadies.

[Marmoot]

Who decided the fault in these cases? My daughter (in a car) got hit from BEHIND by a petrol tanker and the cops held her accountable for not being seen just because she was on her Restricted Licence! Seems on that count the most vulnerable is the cause of most accidents so of course bikes are usually the cause.

And you decide your daughter's case is a representative argument because...?

[Molly]

Shit. Have I missed the article? It's only 10.15pm. Can't have been on long. Baby was crying so had to tend to her. What did I miss?

[Mikkel]

any ideas what we do if ACC has its figures spot on?

The statistics are irrelevant insofar ACC is supposed to remain a no-fault scheme. If so, makes no sense to distinguish as to who suffers the injury when it doesn't matter who caused the injury. The whole logic behind different ACC levies for different types of vehicles is basically flawed.

Statistics can be manipulated to show pretty much anything depending upon what bias the commentator chooses. As such approaching this issue from a statistical angle is both difficult and tenuous - and it will never be as credible as if approached from a more ideological point-of-view.

However, being able to point flaws in the origin of the - alleged - motivation for the proposed ACC levy increases serves to discredit the entire movement. So studying and understanding the statistics is certainly worthwhile - but it shouldn't be the "angle of attack" so to speak.

[Cloggy]

any ideas what we do if ACC has its figures spot on?
I think they have their figures spot on. But spot on to suit their needs.


small errors...
130,213 x 3700 = $481,788,100 just under half a billion (even if not all regestered etc still does add up)

the combined car and bike claims is only $270,828,000

somewhere something is simply not adding up



270,828,000 / 2,919,151 = $92.78 levy required by each car, bike and moped to cover this years claims
Like that the figures don't add up. That is because we are looking at the figures from our point of view, not ACC's needs.


Because National are trying to pull a snowjob on the NZ public.

They are bullshitting the figures to pay for FORECASTED future costs.

And remember it suits their agenda (they pledged this pre election)to privatise ACC for their business toadies.
Exactly. That is the way I understand it too.
Currently ACC have 11 billion dollars in the kitty. ACC need to have 23 billion dollars in the kitty by 2014 to become fully funded as required by the government. Last year they made 1.5 billion dollars surplus. That is not enough to build the fund from 11 billion to 23 billion in 4 years time. Hence the steep increases needed to reach 23 billion. Motorcycle levies are only the start.
It all sucks and we need to fight it. 2014 is only some date plucked out of thin air. It can be extended to 2019 without any problems and would mean no steep increases in levies.

[Mikkel]

Having just seen the Close-Up video on the net I have to concur! Les you did a brilliant job, good on you - not at all nervous were you ;)

Such a short time, it would be very good if more air-time could somehow be procured - without having to firebomb and embassy or something silly like that.

[325rocket]

just finished it now. good job, well done.

[ManDownUnder]

Les you fucken beauty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just watched it online... be sure to let Mark Known when you haven't received the data from them... and copy him on anything saying BRONZ would need to pay 10k for the data.

[James Deuce]

Good work Mr Ixion. Cool under fire and let the ACC chap hang himself. Best way to do it. Saves on rope burns.

[NighthawkNZ]

It can be extended to 2019 without any problems and would mean no steep increases in levies.

agreed... and I have no quarms if it takes another 20 year personally...

we were in a recession in 1999 when they changed it from "Pay as you go" to "fully funded"

It is kind of funny and ironic that the only government arm that makes a profit every year, is the one the nats want to sell... :wacko:

[Gareth51]

Just watched it online,Les your the man,well done :2thumbsup

[merv]

any ideas what we do if ACC has its figures spot on?

Its been said on other threads but if its user pays that counts then its time we all simply had personal accident insurance and have premiums with no-claim bonuses and the like with each of us identified by an ID card (like a licence) or something. Why should me and Mrs merv subsidise the crashers of the world in registering as many vehicles as we do?

Oh that's right, this is meant to be "help each other society" where we the wider group help pay for the unfortunate to ease their burden.

Anyway, good on you Ixion.

Katman do you sleep well at night?

[Owl]

Not sure about that being a slip of the tongue as they (ACC, and the minister) have used that language in the media before, I am sure its a well thought out line, there was a statement made motorcycles were 16 percent more likely to be involved in a crash recently.

I think that would be 1600%;)

[JMemonic]

PB's comment got me thinking, they might be a little random but here goes.

Is this agenda being pushed by the same party that was supposed to have employed one of the most secretive company of spin doctors available, one that had a record of assisting US presidential elections etc?

Did they not play on and use emotive issues in their campaigns over the last two elections, play on New Zealanders fears, and use adapted information?

Are there not emotive terms being used in this campaign?

Is the National party members in government using the same lines as ACC, with identical wording, and figures (which don't add up)?

Weren't the auditors and figures according to tonight's interview calculated and check by and Australian company, and weren't the spin doctors based in Australia?

To my mind this is motivated campaign, well funded (by the NZ tax payer), playing on emotional issues, ACC seems to be the major push for this government currently. I do not wish to get in to arguments about political parties and their respective leanings, again to me this appears to be a push to offer up a national asset, (which is where National seems to come from), as has been done before for privatisation. I see coming up an altered sales pitch, which will see New Zealanders being sold the idea of a total privatisation of ACC being more cost effective, vehicle rego's and workers contributions will suddenly be able to be maintained at current levels or lower levels if there is a move towards the offering of our scheme to private providers.

Call me cynical if you wish, but this kind of sales pitch to average Kiwi's, (who happen to be one of the most studied and predictable groups for marketing), would be easy for some spin doctors to push, and its not like we have not seen other supposed assets of the countries sold off at effectively discounted prices, stripped of anything profitable, leaving the country effectively screwed and having to catch up.

[pete376403]

Originally Posted by JMemonic
Not sure about that being a slip of the tongue as they (ACC, and the minister) have used that language in the media before, I am sure its a well thought out line, there was a statement made motorcycles were 16 percent more likely to be involved in a crash recently

I think that would be 1600%;)

16% more likely is probably correct - but for a while the figure morphed into 16 TIMES more likely, which is completely wrong. Didn't stop Smith from saying it though. Lying bastard.

[Bald Eagle]

Just watched the Close Up segment on-line . Great work Les

[hayd3n]

Having just seen the Close-Up video on the net I have to concur! Les you did a brilliant job, good on you - not at all nervous were you ;)

Such a short time, it would be very good if more air-time could somehow be procured - without having to firebomb and embassy or something silly like that.

take it to fairgo

[Fatt Max]

Good work Mr Ixion. Cool under fire and let the ACC chap hang himself. Best way to do it. Saves on rope burns.

Yep, just watched it on TVNZ On Demand and must say well done Ixion, brilliant job, Mr Arse CC very rattled...good onya mate

[Mikkel]

take it to fairgo

I was actually thinking the same a couple of days back. I don't think that politics are within the scope of their program though.

[Ferkletastic]

Good man Ixon, EatOrBeEaten and I were both cheering you on.

[Bounce001]

I was actually thinking the same a couple of days back. I don't think that politics are within the scope of their program though.

What about the "Shame on You" segment on Target

[James Deuce]

What about the "Shame on You" segment on Target

Bugger off. The vapid doodleheads presenting that show probably don't know what a motorcycle is.

[Badjelly]

What about the "Shame on You" segment on Target


Bugger off. The vapid doodleheads presenting that show probably don't know what a motorcycle is.

Target is a ghastly, ghastly programme.

[Cross Rider]

So if we paid the total cost for ACC we would be paying $3300 a year in levies to cover costs that means it cost ACC @$400 million dollars a year in claims?

If a public servant lies to the Govt and to the nation, can that person be sued or prosecuted?

[NighthawkNZ]

Target is a ghastly, ghastly programme.

Needs to be 20/20 or 60minutes or similar

[mikeey01]

any ideas what we do if ACC has its figures spot on?
Yeah it's called a scanner!

[StoneY]

If a public servant lies to the Govt and to the nation, can that person be sued or prosecuted?

As an ex public sector union delegate

Not sure re-prosecution.
BUT it WOULD be a clear breach of the SSC Code of Conduct that applies to all public sector workers (with very VERY few exceptions)

I had a say in that code way back when.......

[sleemanj]

In the interview last night, Ixion made the point about the proclaimed $77 "subsidy" coming to $200 million. I think the numbers for this were 3.2 million cars.

Is there actually a reference for that 3.2 million figure, just, it seems very high to me. 3.2 million registered vehicles, in a country with what, 4 million people?

Maybe it's totally right, but, just sounds a bit hinky to me, and getting OUR figures wrong would not be a good look.

[Ixion]

It's actually 3109410 . I rounded up. More if on hold vehicles are counted. Figures are from "New Zealand
motor vehicle registration statistics 2008 © Copyright NZ Transport Agency
Published April 2009 ISSN 0114–7234". I got it from their website, I think.

I've attached a copy EDIT Bugger it's too big. If you want a copy PM me.

Page 65, total vehicle fleet excluding those "on hold".

Cars and vans 2631014
Trucks and utes 478336

[Laxi]

buiness cars, taxis, couriers etc, they'd all add up

[sleemanj]

Cars and vans 2631014
Trucks and utes 478336

Wow, that's a surprisingly large number of vehicles.

[k2w3]

The only thing I can think of is that the $77 figure is per licenced driver as opposed to per vehicle. If that's the case, funny how they can use a 'per person' figure when they're slapping us with this 'per bike' cost.

[klingon]

Wow, that's a surprisingly large number of vehicles.

Yeah and about 2.98 million of them try to run me off the road every morning. :argh:

[James Deuce]

Target is a ghastly, ghastly programme.

It's reality TV wrapped in a thin veneer of Consumer Protection.

[pzkpfw]

It's reality TV wrapped in a thin veneer of Consumer Protection.

If we tell them the ACC likes to sniff motorcycle seats, they might take notice...