New 'rain' rule in MotoGP... bad, bad idea...

[Bob]

Actually, I think it could work, but with a spot of modification.

The teams have obviously tested, given Rossi's comments that it takes 40 to 50 seconds to change bike. So when you are racing with a 1.2 second advantage, you really can't go into the pits... so you stay out, on slick tyres, on a surface that isn't safe for this...

Laura watched it and said "I understand why they need to change the rules... although the TV channels put back everything if football runs over... but why can't they have the 2nd bikes ready and when they say it is wet, everyone comes in, gets on the other bikes and goes for a warm up lap then starts again?"

Made perfect sense to me. Rather than risk lives (which the current rule does), with Laura's idea, when the rain flag goes out, the 2nd bikes are wheeled out, everyone comes in, jumps on bikes that are already set up and ready to roll (it is going to take a lap to come in), forms a grid and off they go again. 10 minutes delay, rather than the anything up to 45 minutes that has happened in the past?

Hopefully it isn't going to see someone get badly injured (or worse) before they come up with something like the above.

[TwoSeven]

Sounds like the new rule is intended to force people to ride with inters rather than slicks if they think it will rain.

[Ghost Lemur]

Personally I liked how it worked in Italy last year. Rossi (being the leader) called it 'rain'. They came in, had a certain time frame to decide what they were putting on. Went for a lap. Lined up on the grid for final tweeks.

Was brilliant seeing the tacticle side of things. A last runner going against the grain of popular opinion, in the hopes of luck being on his side. The different riders behavours. Was good for viewing, and the restart/rest of race was exciting as well.

[sAsLEX]

heres a comprimise, after the rain flag is show riders have say four laps to come in and execute a bike change, which invloves hoping off the bike and then back on the new wet tyre bike or the same if you feel, that way everyone has the chance to change if they feel the need and if they feel safe on the current bike they just hop off and then back on! amazingly simple so it will never catch on!! kinda like a compulsory pit stop, but only if it is deemed to be raining by the race officials

[Bob]

heres a comprimise, after the rain flag is show riders have say four laps to come in and execute a bike change, which invloves hoping off the bike and then back on the new wet tyre bike or the same if you feel, that way everyone has the chance to change if they feel the need and if they feel safe on the current bike they just hop off and then back on! amazingly simple so it will never catch on!! kinda like a compulsory pit stop, but only if it is deemed to be raining by the race officials

Well in effect (except there is not a four lap limit), this is what the new rule does. But it doesn't force everyone to come in.

Last year, it was down to the race leader to put their hands up and say "Rain". If he did (although Race Control could also declare unsafe due to rain), then the riders came in, tyres were changed and so forth.

But this takes time. I can recall 45 minutes being taken.

And 45 minutes is not TV-friendly...

So this year, if it starts raining - and race control declare it 'wet' (control taken away from the riders), then once the rain flag goes out, the riders can come in. But now, they do not stay on the same bike, but their second bike is already set up with wets/intermediates.

Idea is that the race does not stop (so is more TV schedule friendly), but the riders can come in and leap onto Bike Two, which has wets/inters on it.

Of course, in practice, this isn't as easy as it seems. You ride into Pit Lane - so instead of 300kph, you're doing 60kph (or whatever the limit is in Pit Lane). Then you get off one bike and onto another, then pull out... with the Pit Lane limit in force... so still trundling along at 60kph (or whatever).

Rossi's team have tried this out, from what he said. And it took 40/50 seconds. If you were just a second ahead of your rival, then are you really going to pit, hoping they do the same? If they don't - and they can keep it upright - then you are never going to make up 50 seconds.

Pit lane is going to be potentially even more dangerous than usual, what with riders coming in and out unscheduled.

If everyone is going to come in, then I think they have to at the same time. A four-lap window only adds to an already confusing situation I think. That way, they all come in, all get on their second bikes and all go out again.

Race control to decide it is wet, so no advantage gained. But you go out on Bike No. 2 which has tyres fitted, so no sitting around while they change tyres, which is time-consuming.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Arent the riders supposed to ride to the conditions? They are moaning about not being able to ride fast, but they are riding as fast as they can for the given tyres and conditions. Isnt that what racing is about? If there is a little bit of slippery tarmac, they go easier over that bit, so why not the same for a bit of rain? I agree that it isnt such a spectacle when they can't pull the daring moves and high dangle angles, but doesnt the tension increase to counter that? It makes it harder for them to race I guess, but so what?

I do agree that the current situation is a bit odd in that the only advantage you get in changing bikes is if you are less than halfway through the race (roughly), but if there are only 10 laps left, what is wrong with seeing them be a little more careful on a slippery surface for a few laps?

[sAsLEX]

Well in effect (except there is not a four lap limit), this is what the new rule does. But it doesn't force everyone to come in.


My main point was why not make it once the white flag is show, everyone has to make a compulsory pit stop before the end of the race, that way if the racer still reckons its sweet on slicks he can stay out and push for a gap while everyone dives into some busy pits and wait till later in the race to come in for a quick change

[That Guy]

I like the new rule - puts more emphasis on the rider getting it right.

I think it was Suzuka '02 and there was 9 riders who crashed out in the rain; and they had wets on anyway so changing tyres didn't help them.

The simple fact is when it rains its more dangerous....riders push the limits no matter what tyres they've got on.

That said you wouldn't find me out on a 250HP bike in the drizzle. But then, I'm not a one-in-a-million super tallent getting paid millions to be out there - they are.

[White trash]

But then, I'm not a one-in-a-million super tallent

I am. :whistle:

[Ixion]

I am. :whistle:

getting paid millions ? can I talk you about a loan? Or sponsership ? :whistle:

[Riff Raff]

I am. :whistle:
Why haven't you been nominated for ego yet? Think I'd better sort that!

[gav]

What happens somewhere like Assen where it could be pissing dowqn on one side of the track and bright sunshine on the other? Estoril never really got to conditions that were going to suit wets. What we may see is a hand cut slick used or how about a super sticky type road tyre? One that performs like a slick in the dry but can still be effective in the wet? Before you scoff who would have thought a F1 car could manage a set of tyres for 2 days?

[Bob]

What happens somewhere like Assen where it could be pissing dowqn on one side of the track and bright sunshine on the other? Estoril never really got to conditions that were going to suit wets. What we may see is a hand cut slick used or how about a super sticky type road tyre? One that performs like a slick in the dry but can still be effective in the wet? Before you scoff who would have thought a F1 car could manage a set of tyres for 2 days?

I'm not sure any rule could take Assen into account!

I also go along with the comments everyone else has made - you ride to the conditions. And to be honest, slicks will cope with wet weather a lot better than exciteable commentators give credit, although I'd rather have decent tread when the wet stuff comes down!

I'm just not sure the Powers That Be have thought the rule change through very well. I think you all come in, or no-one comes in... which effectively is what will happen as you can't risk giving away a 40 second head start!

I reckon the rule will be changed yet again for next year... be interesting to see if it is 'developed'.

[FROSTY]

Guys -I read some of your comments in horror.have any of you actually ridden a bike on slicks in the rain??
Im not talking damp track-Im talking standing water rain coming down.
I have and its pretty bloody scarey. Actually no -I shat my pants.
There is little and sometimes no traction and the tyres cool down below operating temperature real fast.
The comments about f1 cars--those guys have traction control computers to stop it going pear shaped.
As for riding to the conditions-bullshit- these gys are doing this for a living so the can't afford to stop if the competition doesn't
I'd prefer a compulsury 2 lap -change bike rule. That way in theory the gaps between riders wont change.
Otherwise it becomes a sprint race if they regrid.
I find it very hard to believe though that changing tyres causes a 45 minute delay -I'd suggest more like 4-5 minutes including the restart.

[That Guy]

I takes 45 minutes because they go in, change all the suspension, gearbox and ignition setttings as well as tyres, go back out, do a warm up lap, form up on the grid, re-do the grid formation palava, including working out agreegrate times etc on who should go where etc.

The teams practised the new white flag rule and it takes 45 seconds on average to ride into pit lane; jump on the rain set up bike and ride out. Say you were losing 5 seconds a lap for being on slicks in damp conditions - the smart riders and teams can calculate easily if it is beneficial to come in and cahnge. Further, riders and team are allowed radio communication. Also; bikes do have traction control.

As for Assen - that works both ways - wets don't work on half the track and neither do slicks.....

With all due respect Frosty - these guys aren't you or me struggling with slicks in the damp - they are [sic] the best riders in the world (apart from WT whos stuck selling bikes somewhere)

[TwoSeven]

Personally I'd like to see them not be able to change bikes. But have to stop and change tires as the endurance guys do - no restarting - just in and out like normal pit-stops. They have all the quick release stuff that should do the job.

It would be interesting to see how they would deal with brake pads. They'd have to swap out the carbon ones for steel ones (discs have to go to). Maybe they'd develop intermediate ones.

[White trash]

Interestingly, the Yamaha team at Daytona 200 two years back, changed a rear wheel in 7 seconds. No single sided swingarm either. It can be done.

[sAsLEX]

Interestingly, the Yamaha team at Daytona 200 two years back, changed a rear wheel in 7 seconds. No single sided swingarm either. It can be done.

thats putting the V8s to shame!!! would say the F1 as well but they are to pussy now to change wheels!

[Kickaha]

Guys -I read some of your comments in horror.have any of you actually ridden a bike on slicks in the rain??
Im not talking damp track-Im talking standing water rain coming down.
I have and its pretty bloody scarey. Actually no -I shat my pants.


Yes I have,and I'd have to admit to just about praying for rain when riding the bucket against bigger bikes on full size tracks.on a bike with a few more HP I might feel different

Rode around the outside of a RS250 Aprilla and a ZXR400 in the wet on slicks :banana:

The sidecar on the rain on slicks on the other hand is not a good idea going into turn one at Ruapuna and watching another crew highside a couple of metres in front of us reinforced the idea that it is a bad idea


Personally I'd like to see them not be able to change bikes. But have to stop and change tires as the endurance guys do - no restarting - just in and out like normal pit-stops. They have all the quick release stuff that should do the job.

Thats how I think they should do it to