60 Minutes

[Lou Girardin]

Who saw this tonight?
There was a segment on Maori crime. The various popular causative factors were demolished, poverty, racism, etc. by comparison with other demographics. For example, the poverty rate amongst Whites is the same as Maoris, but Maori's make up 3 - 4 times more prisoners. Pacific Islanders suffer lower employment rates and at least as much racism as Maoris, but their level of imprisonment is three times less. Then the two proponents of this particular theory, both Maori, laid the blame at the aggresive, violent aspect of their culture as typified by the Haka.
It was stated that if Maori crime rates were at the same level as whites, we would have one of the lowest rate of imprisonment in the world.
Not just food for though, but a banquet.

[sAsLEX]

what you missed the bit on police ineptitude??

[sels1]

Missed the programme but thats an interesting take on the situation. Shall await reaction in media tomorrow. Its as well that the proponents of the theory were Maori - may give it more credibility in certain circles.

[MOTOXXX]

Who saw this tonight?
For example, the poverty rate amongst Whites is the same as Maoris, but Maori's make up 3 - 4 times more prisoners. Pacific Islanders suffer lower employment rates and at least as much racism as Maoris, but their level of imprisonment is three times less.


i thought the guy said that white people are poorer. maori in the pov bracket are about 200,000 where the whities make up 1mill or something like that but dont quote me on it.

learn somethin new evry day eh

[Ms Piggy]

Only because there are more whites thatn Maori though.. simple rithmitic it is.
Yes - I thought that was an interesting way to misrepresent the facts.

There were some good points made though.

[scumdog]

Only because there are more whites thatn Maori though.. simple rithmitic it is.

Yeah, they said 6 times as many Europeans at the same poverty level as Maori - but look at the ratio of offending/prison occupants etc totally out of proportion.

[toads]

the problem with any kind of "study" involving variables is that almost any argument can be substantiated by using certain variables to prove a certain point of view, almost all crime and poverty in all races goes hand in hand with a lack of education and often is compounded with alcohol and substance abuse and so on, alcoholism is a disease, and certain people are genetically prone to becoming alcoholics. Maori and pacific islanders are more susceptible to becoming alcoholics than those of european extraction, perhaps because of the relatively recent introduction of it into their society, compared to other races.
Whatever the case, education is always the key to liberating people from these issues, no people will deliberately choose poverty over affluence, and violence over peace and prosperity, the delivery of education needs to be changed in order to reach those it clearly is not reaching, starting apprenticeships at 14 in all trades would be a damned fine start in my opinion.

[Deano]

Yeah, they said 6 times as many Europeans at the same poverty level as Maori - but look at the ratio of offending/prison occupants etc totally out of proportion.

Thank you for not using the term "white", although non-Maori would be closer than European.

It's not about skin colour anymore. Im darker than my part-Maori partner after a bit of sun.

I didn't see the show, but sounds very interesting. I bet a lot of sociologists/psychologists/anthropologists are up in arms over it.

[MSTRS]

Didn't see all of the item, but enough to cement the opinion that NZ as a whole has had enough of the bullshit PC crap (treaty/culture/victim) & is starting to tell the truth. More of this, I say, and stop pretending that all is well in our fine little corner of the world.

[Lou Girardin]

the problem with any kind of "study" involving variables is that almost any argument can be substantiated by using certain variables to prove a certain point of view, almost all crime and poverty in all races goes hand in hand with a lack of education and often is compounded with alcohol and substance abuse and so on, alcoholism is a disease, and certain people are genetically prone to becoming alcoholics. Maori and pacific islanders are more susceptible to becoming alcoholics than those of european extraction, perhaps because of the relatively recent introduction of it into their society, compared to other races.
Whatever the case, education is always the key to liberating people from these issues, no people will deliberately choose poverty over affluence, and violence over peace and prosperity, the delivery of education needs to be changed in order to reach those it clearly is not reaching, starting apprenticeships at 14 in all trades would be a damned fine start in my opinion.

I'm afraid that this is the kind of response that was argued against by the two people in the programme. They say that what is needed is a cultural shift within Maoridom. It is an internal problem.

[idb]

I'm afraid that this is the kind of response that was argued against by the two people in the programme. They say that what is needed is a cultural shift within Maoridom. It is an internal problem.
Exactly - one of the points raised was that there is an anti-intellectual attitude within the wider Maori community as this would be seen as some type of capitulation.
The comparisons with the Islander community especially was quite telling I thought.

[750Y]

I believe there is a distinct lack of role models out in the wider maori community.
My gut feeling is that this contributes a huge amount to the situation.
Young Maori kids are growing up without the positive influence of someone they look up to. They scramble around. We can't fix it all at once. I'm doing my part for the country by bringing up my kids as best I know how. it doesn't help when at the age of 5 my daughter is already the target of racist remarks at school, & she is over 78% european! it makes me sad to try so hard & have those efforts undermined by some smart-ass 7 year old kid who's simply parroting what they hear at home.
it's a kiwi problem.

[idb]

I believe there is a distinct lack of role models out in the wider maori community.

There seem to be a lot of Maori doing well for themselves - in business and the arts. Could it be that they just aren't made visible?

[Skunk]

There seem to be a lot of Maori doing well for themselves - in business and the arts. Could it be that they just aren't made visible?
Only the failures are made public...

[Ghost Lemur]

My personal take on the situation is a long winded one.

So pull up a comfy chair or go to the toilet now because once I start I'm not stopping.

IMHO remembering IANASW and IANAP and IANAS.

This is a complex issue and yet a simple one. It's complex in the fact that there is no singular cause but rather multiple causes snowballing to the endemic results we see. It's simple in so far as each of the causes are obvious and individually easy to tackle (if the partisipants are willing).

The Haka issue discussed in the program wasn't so much about the Haka itself but rather used as an obvious and easy to grasp example of Maori violence being glorified as a "cultural identity".

Now why would this happen. Although Maori, or rather the tribes that now make up Maori were warriors, had inter tribal wars, etc etc. They were also hunter gathers famers and for large periods had relative intertribal peace I expect (someone with explicitly detailed knowledge of pre-European tribal life could probably detail this more).

Which leads us to why then is that aspect of Maori tribal culture at the forefront now. I believe the answer is simple and lies solely at the feet of the people themselves.

Victims.

What seperates Maori from all other groups isn't colour of skin (otherwise PI people would be there too), it isn't poverty, or socio-economic enviroments (ie communities) otherwise poor Europeans and refugee immigrants would also feature more proportionally.

The thing that seperates them is Maori society (or sub-society) is focused on grievances, on historical victimizations (both real and perceived). Maori are taught they are victims. This gives them little reason as a group to achieve. It also leads them to expect hand outs and see anything they get is just a small dent in what they're owed.

Another part is role models. They are serverly lacking. Even those who achieve whether it be in business or politics or whatever, seem to be more inclined to self destruct that other ethnic groups (which makes sense if you accept the assumptions of the first point). Examples of greed, ineptitude, violence, and trouble with the law are too numerous for me to waste time giving.

The media can also take some credit as they continue to give the radicals (who are in the business of being victims) bucket loads of air time.

These are just two of, what I think, are underlying causes.

Solution? Don't know. My first suggestion would be for the Maori community as a whole to get over the past and start thinking about the future. Stop teaching their youth to be victims (and therefore perpertrators) and start teaching them to be self reliant, self confident, etc.

Slight disclaimer: As with all discussions of this sort, assumptions and sweeping generalisations have been made for which exceptions are of course to be found. But when talking about such a large issue, I personally think it works to do so, and one the "large picture" has been dealt with, then smaller details can be looked into.

[madboy]

I didn't see the 60 minutes item, but my opinion is very much along the "victim" line. Taking out ethnicity for a minute - an overly simplistic view of humanity is that people are either victims or not. Those who are not generally deal with life, accept that things are how things are mostly for reasons beyond their control, and so they just get on with life.

Then there are those who feel that they are victims. They were abused as a kid, they got picked on at school, their parent's split up (or they were from solo-parent families to start with), they have a physical/mental disability, they feel their great great great great great great grandfather got screwed in a contract negotiation... bla bla bla. Really, who friggin cares? Just build a bridge and get over it.

I work in disability claims, and those claimants I deal with who have a "victim" mentality are guaranteed to have a longer recovery, more ongoing problems, and generally be on claim a hell of a lot longer than those who just accept that whatever has happened has happened, for whatever reason doesn't matter, and life must go on. This transfers into all aspects of life.

Where a particular section of the population subscribe to the victim mentality then they are ensuring their own failure. Until that section of the population takes responsibility for themselves, instead of blaming my section of the population, then they will continue to fail. You can choose to be a victim, you can also choose not to.

[Hitcher]

Criminal offending isn't a racial issue, it's a socio-economic issue. Same as house fires.

[speedpro]

Criminal offending isn't a racial issue, it's a socio-economic issue. Same as house fires.
The programme refuted that particular theory with examples.

[Hitcher]

The programme refuted that particular theory with examples.
Really? Shame I missed it. So poor people don't offend more than not so poor people?

[idb]

Really? Shame I missed it. So poor people don't offend more than not so poor people?
It said that poor Maori people offend in far greater proportion to poor folk of other ethnicities, suggesting a cause other than poverty.

[Skunk]

So poor people don't offend more than not so poor people?They just get caught and found guilty more often...

[Skyryder]

Who saw this tonight?
There was a segment on Maori crime. The various popular causative factors were demolished, poverty, racism, etc. by comparison with other demographics. For example, the poverty rate amongst Whites is the same as Maoris, but Maori's make up 3 - 4 times more prisoners. Pacific Islanders suffer lower employment rates and at least as much racism as Maoris, but their level of imprisonment is three times less. Then the two proponents of this particular theory, both Maori, laid the blame at the aggresive, violent aspect of their culture as typified by the Haka.
It was stated that if Maori crime rates were at the same level as whites, we would have one of the lowest rate of imprisonment in the world.
Not just food for though, but a banquet.

I saw bits and pieces of it. Before I would go down the road that was being advocated I would need to see the comparisons between Maori and European for crimes of viloence. I will concede that there may be some merit in the argument.

Skyryder

[Lou Girardin]

The other issue mentioned in addition to the Haka, was the 'staunch' attitude. Otherwise known as looking for trouble. Any reflection on their 'mana' invites a disproportionately violent response.
And I've always thought that their traditional welcome seemed to be less than welcoming, threatening in fact. Especially compared with some other Polynesian cultures.

[flyin]

was the 'staunch' attitude. Otherwise known as looking for trouble. Any reflection on their 'mana' invites a disproportionately violent response.
.

This is another trait of the "poor me", victim persona.
To become defensive instantly comes naturally as they want to defend all they have thinking everyone else is out to take it from them.... be it confidence, happiness, or possesions.