Forget knee downs - got my toe down!

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Going round a corner on the way back from Makara this afternoon - corners were just flowing and I was obviously leaning a bit further than I have before (reducing the chicken strips slowly) when I felt my toe slider touch the ground on a particularly nice left hander!

First time for me and I can tell you rather than freaking me out it just plastered a huge smile on my face.

I always wondered what scraping during cornering felt like and it is not as scary as I expected - just fun. And before people start thinking I'm hooning around corners dangerously - I'm not - you don't have to be going fast to get good lean angles and I always stay in my lane.

So, for all the gurus out there - what's the secret to knee down?

From what I can see it is about leaning off your saddle into the corner (hanging off the side of the bike) and using your knee to gauge the lean of the bike?

Any pointers?

[george formby]

The point of getting your knee down is to keep the bike up, hanging off the bike gives greater corner speed for less lean, so they tell me. Never done it myself. By the way, how big are your feet?

[NighthawkNZ]

The point of getting your knee down is to keep the bike up, hanging off the bike gives greater corner speed for less lean, so they tell me. Never done it myself. By the way, how big are your feet?


ummmm... ???

[bogan]

yeh it pays to hang off the bike a bit, didnt bother at an intersection the other day, scraaape goes the footpeg, wasnt carrying much corner speed either, musta been a bump. I think the bike (and riding style) should probably be set up so you can put a knee down before a footpeg.

[george formby]

ummmm... ???

I have size 12 feet & wear enduro boots. If I don't tuck them in tight my boots get ground away real quick. It,s not the lean angle for me, just the dirty great lump of leather hangin off the footrest.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

I've got dainty little size tens.

So, leaning off the bike is to gain a sharper turn angle instead of (or in addition to) bike lean. Is that right?

Also, any tips for practicing hanging off the side? It's just not a natural thing to my mind (bit like counter-steering wasn't) - what's a good way to practice without too much risk of cocking it up?

[blackstars_10]

best ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs. cant throw the bike around more-and avoid trapping your foot under the peg

[McJim]

I got an exhaust down on a corner once. I stay planted on the saddle and keep my knees tucked in so the bike has to lean to go round.

[bogan]

best ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs. cant throw the bike around more-and avoid trapping your foot under the peg

if you are on a track yes, but riding a little more defensive on the road is a good idea, instant access to the shifter and brake is a good thing in an emergency situation

[bogan]

I got an exhaust down on a corner once. I stay planted on the saddle and keep my knees tucked in so the bike has to lean to go round.

same here, trip took longer though cos I had to go back and pick it up :confused:

[george formby]

best ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs. cant throw the bike around more-and avoid trapping your foot under the peg

Oy do but still have to make a conscious effort to keep them pulled in tight. My boots are slightly wider than the pegs. Soggy suspension does'nt help either. Wallow, scrape, if you know what I mean.

[blackstars_10]

if you are on a track yes, but riding a little more defensive on the road is a good idea, instant access to the shifter and brake is a good thing in an emergency situation

probably shouldn't be encouraging midcorner braking or downshifting...

[bogan]

probably shouldn't be encouraging midcorner braking or downshifting...

not quite sure how you got that from my post, when an emergency situation arises I may or may not need to downshift or brake (going round a corner or otherwise) in either situation I most likely do not have the attention to spare on reorganising where my feet should be.

[Laxi]

used to scrape the edge of my feet all the time before I learnt to posotion my feet properly, now I wear axo enduro boots and they have a huge piece of armour on the side of the toe, but I still scrape my pegs before my feet

[Dean]

I find on my 2fiddy - knock down 2 gears entering
Tippy Toe's on peg
Shoulder out
Start of wide then tighen into mid-apex
Look as tight as you can (you will know when you are looking tight enough because your neck will slightly tilt through the twists).
Use the powerband to exit the corner

Cant be stuffed with kneedowns, save that stuff for the track.

[blackstars_10]

I emphasize body position because a good position allows the rider to make instantaneous adjustments. I'm not saying that you need to be constantly making a concious effort to change foot position, rather start off doing it properly, and then the good technique becomes automatic. In any case, good cornering starts well before you are actually in the corner, its the approach.


Wild Weston
Yeah if you really want to get your knee down, body position is key. Hang well off the bike. But you also need to remain even(your head and upper torso goes off with your backside). Also when you corner, you can twist your inside foot so that the sole almost rests parallel on the rearset guard (this also helps to get correct inside limb position as well as getting toes out of the way.). Don't forget to use you whole body though, not just the lower half. But remember that knee down doesn't equal good cornering.

[325rocket]

i think i know the corner ... happened to me there as well.

[discotex]

if you are on a track yes, but riding a little more defensive on the road is a good idea, instant access to the shifter and brake is a good thing in an emergency situation

What use is your back brake in an emergency situation?

Why change down a gear in an emergency?

In an emergency you generally need to steer your bike or brake hard with the front brake. Riding with the balls of your feet on the pegs gives you maximum control over the bike for both. If you really want to use the rear brake you can move your foot the 3cm required in an instant.

[bogan]

What use is your back brake in an emergency situation?

Why change down a gear in an emergency?

In an emergency you generally need to steer your bike or brake hard with the front brake. Riding with the balls of your feet on the pegs gives you maximum control over the bike for both. If you really want to use the rear brake you can move your foot the 3cm required in an instant.

Not often you need to change down for an emergency, but somethimes handy to have a bit more acceleration, bike handles a lot differently under decent acceleration and some of those effect may be required, maybe not. Back brake in an emergency situation is still usefull, what if you want to slow and turn, what if you arent confident enough to use the full potential of the front brake an get near stoppie braking.

I just cant see any reason why you should be scraping a toe while riding on the road, leaning off the bike seems to offer more advantage than balls (of feet) on pegs.

[discotex]

Not often you need to change down for an emergency, but somethimes handy to have a bit more acceleration, bike handles a lot differently under decent acceleration and some of those effect may be required, maybe not. Back brake in an emergency situation is still usefull, what if you want to slow and turn, what if you arent confident enough to use the full potential of the front brake an get near stoppie braking.

I just cant see any reason why you should be scraping a toe while riding on the road, leaning off the bike seems to offer more advantage than balls (of feet) on pegs.

I hear ya but I can't see why you can't just move your feet if required.

Riding with the balls of your feet on the pegs isn't just about scraping toes. It allows better control of your weight on the bike. Our bodies are designed to concentrate downward force through that point, not the arches.

[cold comfort]

not quite sure how you got that from my post, when an emergency situation arises I may or may not need to downshift or brake (going round a corner or otherwise) in either situation I most likely do not have the attention to spare on reorganising where my feet should be.

With you on that one. No matter how i try to use the balls of my feet still prefer to be able to shift without foot movemnt. Hence have ground down the left boot mostly. Interestingly since doing more dirt riding am finding i'm not touching down at all on the road. Maybe not leaning it so far?

[Ooky]

hmmm werid one person saying lean off one saying get on the balls of your feet... doesn't one just help the other? and moving your feet for the corner then back down on the straight isnt that hard. If your saying hang off more isnt that alot more movement then just moving your feet? and no point in just moving your feet and not changing your body position.

but dont mind me im tired 1/2 drunk and bored and only skim read this thread :)

[Maki]

You probably need to do two things.

1. Keep your toes tucked in.

2. Move your body (hips, chest and head) inside an imaginary line drawn through the center of the bike. (Don't twist your body, don't hang off one side of the bike with your ass and the other side with your head.) You can do this subtly, or more aggressively as shown on the photo, depending on your speed. Mr. Haga really shows us how it should be done there...

These are good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wYD9SSBBNQ&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCg3BMGe52M

This is great too: http://www.sportbikes.net/forums/track/267559-body-positioning-article-long-but-good-read.html

If you do those two things you will never ever drag your toe at any sane road going speed. If you do the opposite of 2. and place your body outside the imaginary line you are asking for scraped bike parts and a lowside crash.

[Maki]

This is the kind if "style" you want to avoid. That is horribly twisted...

[Kickaha]

This is the kind if "style" you want to avoid. That is horribly twisted...

Really?, perhaps you should have let him know how crap his riding style was before a won a world championship or two it might have helped him get a few more :lol:

[Maki]

Really?, perhaps you should have let him know how crap his riding style was before a won a world championship or two it might have helped him get a few more :lol:

I think that just caught him at a bad moment.

[Maki]

This is exemplary, he is even counter steering nicely.

[blackstars_10]

Its just the body position evolving over time with the bikes used. If you look at Schwantz pics- same body position. Its looks like they're always waiting for a highside on the old 2t

[DarkLord]

Sounds to me like you are riding with duck feet, i.e. you aren't keeping your toes on the pegs.

[Maki]

Its just the body position evolving over time with the bikes used. If you look at Schantz pics- same body position. Its looks like they're always waiting for a highside on the old 2t

Not sure about that...

[discotex]

hmmm werid one person saying lean off one saying get on the balls of your feet... doesn't one just help the other? and moving your feet for the corner then back down on the straight isnt that hard. If your saying hang off more isnt that alot more movement then just moving your feet? and no point in just moving your feet and not changing your body position.

but dont mind me im tired 1/2 drunk and bored and only skim read this thread :)

:lol: yeah dude of course they're different things. Moving your body is about moving your weight so you can corner with less lean angle.

Moving your feet is so you have better control of the bike (and as a side effect your feet are further from the ground).


This is exemplary, he is even counter steering nicely.

While it is turning the handlebars in the opposite direction that is *not* countersteering as the term is used on bikes. You don't actively countersteer into a power slide on a bike or you'll crash - the back coming around does it for you.

[blackstars_10]

haha fair enough, in that pic not so much. Its a bit more obvious when you watch old videos of it. Pictures don't show the whole story.

I was more getting at how riding style(and body position) has changed over time. And i don't think anyone will argue with that.

[Maki]

:lol: yeah dude of course they're different things. Moving your body is about moving your weight so you can corner with less lean angle.

Moving your feet is so you have better control of the bike (and as a side effect your feet are further from the ground).



While it is turning the handlebars in the opposite direction that is *not* countersteering as the term is used on bikes. You don't actively countersteer into a power slide on a bike or you'll crash - the back coming around does it for you.

That was a bit "tongue in cheek"... It is counter steering, just not the every day bread and butter kind.

[Maki]

haha fair enough, in that pic not so much. Its a bit more obvious when you watch old videos of it. Pictures don't show the whole story.

I was more getting at how riding style(and body position) has changed over time. And i don't think anyone will argue with that.

Agreed. Like most things it has evolved and improved over time.

[StoneY]

same here, trip took longer though cos I had to go back and pick it up :confused:

Best post of the thread

Public road...knee down...dont sell that 250 dude....ever

[discotex]

That was a bit "tongue in cheek"... It is counter steering, just not the every day bread and butter kind.

Yeah technically it is but it's a fringe case the average rider will never encounter and definitely doesn't require rider input... Loads of newbies struggle to get to grips with what countersteering means so had to make the distinction so they don't get all confused :)

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Ok, thank you all for the tips and pointers (and especially the pics Maki they were very helpfull).

So, what I've taken from this is:

Make sure that my feet are not pointing outwards (duck feet).
I don't think I'll use the balls of my feet on the pegs for now (but may try this on a trackday - if I ever get round to doing one).
Leaning is not just as simple as thorwing your body over one side of the bike. There are a lot of different ways to lean. The Hagi example seems to have the whole body to the left slightly rather than the bottom half with the top half scrambling back over the bike (the next pic after the hagi one).


All good. I think I will try it slowly for now and hopefully it will feel a bit more natural.

Cheers

[bogan]

sounds like a good plan, also, concentrate on good technique rather than the speed, speed comes from good technique, not the other way round!

[koba]

Ok
I don't think I'll use the balls of my feet on the pegs for now (but may try this on a trackday - if I ever get round to doing one).

Make it happen, So many people put it off and then kick themselves for not trying it earlier.

[discotex]

Leaning is not just as simple as thorwing your body over one side of the bike.

Use this simple tip - try to kiss the wing mirror on the side you're turning to.

Don't worry about moving your butt around as your upper body and head make the most difference.

[Morcs]

Toe-down means poor cornering body position. Noob.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Toe-down means poor cornering body position. Noob.


Cor, wow, really?. Didn't bother to read the rest of the posts in the thread did ya?

And there was a reason I posted it in the 250 forum - because I am a noob but thanks for pointing that out as well.

[blackstars_10]

Cor, wow, really?. Didn't bother to read the rest of the posts in the thread did ya?

And there was a reason I posted it in the 250 forum - because I am a noob but thanks for pointing that out as well.



don't worry wild_weston
If morcs profile pic is of him, then he could learn a thing or two about body position aswell. Instead of just ripping on ya

[cheesemethod]

When I started using the balls of my feet rather than arches or heels, I was quite surprised at how much of a difference it made. I can't explain how it works at all, but it just felt more stable in corners.

Also I don't think it takes any longer to move your foot forward onto the brake than it does to get your fingers off the throttle and around the front brake. If you get the height of the brake lever set right it's just a matter of sliding your foot forward a few inches. If you have to lift your foot to get onto the brake you need to adjust the lever down.

[xr-rider]

I've got dainty little size tens.

So, leaning off the bike is to gain a sharper turn angle instead of (or in addition to) bike lean. Is that right?

Also, any tips for practicing hanging off the side? It's just not a natural thing to my mind (bit like counter-steering wasn't) - what's a good way to practice without too much risk of cocking it up?

just go to a track day. hang off a little more each time, relax and trust your tires

[ital916]

What use is your back brake in an emergency situation?

Why change down a gear in an emergency?

In an emergency you generally need to steer your bike or brake hard with the front brake. Riding with the balls of your feet on the pegs gives you maximum control over the bike for both. If you really want to use the rear brake you can move your foot the 3cm required in an instant.

mmhmm

Changing gear is the last thing to be thinking of in an emergency stopping situation. Just use the brakes on your bike and stop! Who cares if the bike stalls, as long as you are in one piece. Moving your feet to the control takes all of a second.

[george formby]

Ok, thank you all for the tips and pointers (and especially the pics Maki they were very helpfull).

So, what I've taken from this is:

Make sure that my feet are not pointing outwards (duck feet).
I don't think I'll use the balls of my feet on the pegs for now (but may try this on a trackday - if I ever get round to doing one).
Leaning is not just as simple as thorwing your body over one side of the bike. There are a lot of different ways to lean. The Hagi example seems to have the whole body to the left slightly rather than the bottom half with the top half scrambling back over the bike (the next pic after the hagi one).


All good. I think I will try it slowly for now and hopefully it will feel a bit more natural.

Cheers

If I'm tootling & particularly looking for hazards in traffic I cover the rear brake & gear lever, just so I can react as quick as poss. When I get the chance to string some corners together I put the balls of my feet on the pegs, making it easier to adjust my body weight & keep the bike stable as it swings.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

OK,

finally got a chance to get out there today and try some of the points given in this thread.

Went from Johnsonville to Makara and then onto Karori back through town and back up the gorge to JVille again.

After about five minutes on the makara road things started to fall in place. Very soft leans to "try and kiss the wing mirror" at first. Started feeling comfortable leaning after about 10 mins of small leans and started noticing the bike didn't hardly need any countersteer to get round corners.

Then upped it to leaning right out to get round a gentle corner and not steer the bike - even better (all at lowish speed) even if it looked a bit weird to other road users.

Then tried leaning out and countersteering and wow. The turn rate is about twice as sharp than countersteering alone. At the Karori end of the makara road I was having a great time leaning into those fast corners (if anything I had to keep an eye out for oversteering - when historically understeering had always been my problem).

So, I would like to say a big thank you to all the bikers who gave me tips in this thread. Good on you guys - you helped out a newbie to develop his skills safely - what this website should be all about.

I'll carry on practicing and maybe one day use it on a track session.

I also tried "balls of feet on the pegs" for a while. Definitely more control for leans but I don't think my brake or gear levers are set up for that style. I'll keep trying though.

Cheers

[Cr1MiNaL]

OK,

finally got a chance to get out there today and try some of the points given in this thread.

Went from Johnsonville to Makara and then onto Karori back through town and back up the gorge to JVille again.

After about five minutes on the makara road things started to fall in place. Very soft leans to "try and kiss the wing mirror" at first. Started feeling comfortable leaning after about 10 mins of small leans and started noticing the bike didn't hardly need any countersteer to get round corners.

Then upped it to leaning right out to get round a gentle corner and not steer the bike - even better (all at lowish speed) even if it looked a bit weird to other road users.

Then tried leaning out and countersteering and wow. The turn rate is about twice as sharp than countersteering alone. At the Karori end of the makara road I was having a great time leaning into those fast corners (if anything I had to keep an eye out for oversteering - when historically understeering had always been my problem).

So, I would like to say a big thank you to all the bikers who gave me tips in this thread. Good on you guys - you helped out a newbie to develop his skills safely - what this website should be all about.

I'll carry on practicing and maybe one day use it on a track session.

I also tried "balls of feet on the pegs" for a while. Definitely more control for leans but I don't think my brake or gear levers are set up for that style. I'll keep trying though.

Cheers

If your getting your toe down on a Hornet 250 and not your knee or peg down with it there's something horribly wrong with what your doing.

I didn't really read this entire thread just your posts and Maki's posts so if someone had said this before then lets just say I agree.

If you met me in person and asked me the question as to why I lean off my bike so much I'd say to get knee down! or Knee down is where it's at! or something rather. But let's just be honest here as you are a learner and good advice will go a long way.

Leaning off the bike whether on the road or the track has the same 'benefits' albeit it has different 'advantages' on the road, as road riding is very different to track riding.

Let me explain in plain easy to understand English-

1. when you lean off your bike and 'counter - steer' you are effectively asking the bike to fall over for a mili second as your steering inputs are throwing the bike off its natural gyroscope momentum and taking it into the corner. A bike likes to go straight when under constant throttle and nothing else. Google 'gyroscope' for more on this.

2. What leaning off the bike also does for you is it transfers the weight to the inside of the bike. This is the MAIN 'benefit' of this technique. // there are limits to grip, traction and speed, leaning off helps keep your bike more upright so that you can get on the throttle earlier and take the corner quicker without getting flung to the outside of the corner due to the effects of gravity and inertia. Think about it, if you jump off a moving bus you are not just going to land on your feet and walk away - expect to roll. Similarly a moving bike is not just going to turn into a corner without any implications. Crucial you understand this. * I have also started weighting the outside peg when my knee is on the ground coming out of corners as this puts downward force on the center of the bike and helps more aggressive throttle responses i.e wheeling out of corners!

Feet:

Definitely have the balls of your feet on the pegs... when on a left hander it is ok to have your right foot slightly less on the balls of your feel so that you can trail the rear brake - although I suggest you google that one separately and not try it at this stage.

Leaning:

Also when your learning to lean off understand 'how' to correctly lean off as Maki pointed out. I learned the wrong way and am always trying to correct myself as habits are hard to break. The idea is to not push on the bars from above but the have lent of sufficiently to push on the bar from the side you are leaning off. Thus doing less and letting the bike do more.

To go with all this there is the art of 'throttle control', understanding of the 'geometry' and how 'suspension' on a bike works just as the basics to think of entering and exiting each and every corner. Add to this the perils and unpredictability of road riding and you have quite a tired mind after 300 kms of assertive road riding.

Good luck eh, it is quite a demanding sport and the consequences of not getting a small bit right are well... you know.

Pic 1. You see what I am doing wrong? Sure my knees on the ground but it's not really helping... I'm on the bike rather than off it and pushing down on the bars. Bad basics... in my defense that's not really a road where you can get your knee down the correct way without going a million miles an hour and it was for a picture.

Pic 2. Now that's a lot better body off the bike if I were to dip it in to the point of getting my knee on the ground you can see where I'd be. Much better.

[Maki]

Then tried leaning out and countersteering and wow. The turn rate is about twice as sharp than countersteering alone. At the Karori end of the makara road I was having a great time leaning into those fast corners (if anything I had to keep an eye out for oversteering - when historically understeering had always been my problem).



Brilliant, thanks for that interesting feedback. No more toe down for you.