Injustice.. help?

[discotex]

Bear in mind this was like 11pm at night on a weekday. The only other vehicles on the road were the police involved.

There I was pootling along and a cop A (unmarked) pulls out behind me and starts to pull me over - fair cop I'm thinking at this stage.. I was a little over the speed limit after not slowing instantly down from an 80k zone. I was under 70km/h and probably doing 65.

As I'm slowing down I go past cop B as well. I pull over into a side street just past cop B (highway patrol)..

I get off the bike and start talking to cop A. Cop B turns on the disco lights and comes over as well. He then tells the younger cop A "I've got this one mate" so cop A gets back in his car and leaves.

Cop B then gives me the reaming for as speed I wasn't doing. Originally he claimed I was doing 72 or 73 but then wrote a ticket for 80km/h.

My guess is cop B had the rear radar on Cop A coming up behind me by mistake as he would obviously have been going faster. Or somehow he's got me way up the road in the 80km/h area. I dunno but he clearly though he was right and I was a danger to society.

Is there a way I can get hold of the reading from the original guy who pulled me over? Cop A's reading should be higher than cop B by heaps if cop B is to be believed. I expect it would match my version of events.


I'm happy to pay and take the points for what I was doing (~65km/h) but greater than 20km/h over is arse.

What's the best way to argue the case to fine me for the correct speed? (I don't actually care about getting off I just want the appropriate fine and points for what I did).

Any suggestions (via PM if you prefer) from lawyers or KB bike cops would be appreciated.

[R6_kid]

Where did this happen?

[Morcs]

You cannot be ticketed with 250m of a speed limit change - unless you were doing in excess of the higher speed limit you just came from.

Ie. you can not get ticketed for 60-80kph in a 50 zone if you are within 250m of just coming out of an 80 zone.

Its on the police website.

[swbarnett]

You cannot be ticketed with 250m of a speed limit change - unless you were doing in excess of the higher speed limit you just came from.

Ie. you can not get ticketed for 60-80kph in a 50 zone if you are within 250m of just coming out of an 80 zone.

Its on the police website.
Do you have a link to the exact page?

[Hopeful Bastard]

From what you saying, Disco cop sounds like he is in the wrong.. You can take it to courts or ring up the Police HQ and talk to them?

[MSTRS]

You cannot be ticketed with 250m of a speed limit change - unless you were doing in excess of the higher speed limit you just came from.

Ie. you can not get ticketed for 60-80kph in a 50 zone if you are within 250m of just coming out of an 80 zone.

Its on the police website.

OH YES YOU CAN!!!
It's a matter of discretion, and up to the cop. Some will give none, while others may be more amenable.


Drivers can also expect leniency in the first 250m of a lower speed zone, except in circumstances such as when road workers or children near schools need protection.
Taken from here (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3602213)

[Morcs]

Do you have a link to the exact page?

http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2007/speed-enforcement-guide/index.html


When enforcement is taking place in an area where drivers are making the transition from a higher speed to a lower speed area, vehicles should not be targeted within 250 (two hundred and fifty) metres from the point where the speed limit changes unless there are good reasons to do so, such as protecting people operating at road works or to ensure the safety of children. (This does not apply within school zones.)

So unless they can give a good reason, I dont think its a very valid ticket.
Its basically a grace period, otherwise if everyone slammed on the anchors hard at exactly where a speed limit drops from (in the extreme) 100 to a 50, there would be carnage!

[scumdog]

http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2007/speed-enforcement-guide/index.html



So unless they can give a good reason, I dont think its a very valid ticket.
Its basically a grace period, otherwise if everyone slammed on the anchors hard at exactly where a speed limit drops from (in the extreme) 100 to a 50, there would be carnage!

It's a guideline - not law but most if not all cops adhere to it.

Sadly a lot of motorists think it works going the other way. (i.e. it's o.k. to wind up to speed anytime they are within the sign indicating and increase in speed-limit.) "I know I was doing 85 kay but I was only about 200metres from the 100 sign".

[Patrick]

....My guess is cop B had the rear radar on Cop A coming up behind me by mistake as he would obviously have been going faster. Or somehow he's got me way up the road in the 80km/h area. I dunno but he clearly though he was right and I was a danger to society.

Any suggestions (via PM if you prefer) from lawyers or KB bike cops would be appreciated.

You're probably right there. A car gives a better target reading than a bike as it gives a better reflective surface etc etc... The patrol car catching up to you is quite likely.

You could take it to court, say nothing, and get whatever comes.... The cop might be wrong, but if he honestly believes it was you he caught on the radar, then that could be all the JP hears. Risky. If he is highways, most of them are ex MOT anyway, highly experienced.

Or, you can write in to the bureau and explain it exactly as you have just done on here. Did the first cop have time do do a rego check on ya? If so, then there will be a log..... If not, then this mystery cop may remain just that.... a mystery.... He would be unaware of the saga that has now unfolded.

[Ixion]

http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2007/speed-enforcement-guide/index.html



So unless they can give a good reason, I dont think its a very valid ticket.
Its basically a grace period, otherwise if everyone slammed on the anchors hard at exactly where a speed limit drops from (in the extreme) 100 to a 50, there would be carnage!

yeah, but 250 metres is an awful lot shorter distance than you think. Most people who say "Oh I was just past the sign" are really about half a kilometre or more past.

[discotex]

Thanks for the tips and PMs guys.


Sadly a lot of motorists think it works going the other way. (i.e. it's o.k. to wind up to speed anytime they are within the sign indicating and increase in speed-limit.) "I know I was doing 85 kay but I was only about 200metres from the 100 sign".

Yeah the speed sign does suck you in a bit when you see it coming.

As for the 250m guideline I was within that when officer A pulled me up. Officer B was stationed well down the road. Perhaps worth mentioning in any letter though..


You could take it to court, say nothing, and get whatever comes.... The cop might be wrong, but if he honestly believes it was you he caught on the radar, then that could be all the JP hears. Risky. If he is highways, most of them are ex MOT anyway, highly experienced.

Yeah I don't really want to go in and waste everyone's time fighting it if they'll just amend the speed.

That said he did write "car" as the type of vehicle on the ticket so what else could he have got wrong?



Or, you can write in to the bureau and explain it exactly as you have just done on here. Did the first cop have time do do a rego check on ya? If so, then there will be a log..... If not, then this mystery cop may remain just that.... a mystery.... He would be unaware of the saga that has now unfolded.

Any idea if I can write in and still later defend it in court? Kinda seems like an either or situation.

I've only got a couple of weeks left to write in so need to make a quick call I guess.

[kwaka_crasher]

OH YES YOU CAN!!!
It's a matter of discretion, and up to the cop. Some will give none, while others may be more amenable.

Correct. Policy is not a defense.


He then tells the younger cop A "I've got this one mate" so cop A gets back in his car and leaves.

Oh, what a sweet story. They're sharing quota now? :hug: :love: :grouphug:

You could write in, but it sounds like the issuing cop is a dumb cunt who doesn't understand microwave anyway (or at the very least doesn't care) so reasoning probably won't help.

Your only option then is a defended hearing. You have to weigh up cost and demerits.

[MSTRS]

Any idea if I can write in and still later defend it in court? Kinda seems like an either or situation.


It can be both. First, you write in. Cop to the lower speed (perhaps) but contest the rest of it. Include the 'car' reference - it goes to believeability.
Their response letter will be the decider. If it tells you they are proceeding, then you go to court.
Thought you'd know that?

[discotex]

It can be both. First, you write in. Cop to the lower speed (perhaps) but contest the rest of it. Include the 'car' reference - it goes to believeability.
Their response letter will be the decider. If it tells you they are proceeding, then you go to court.
Thought you'd know that?

It seemed to me that admitting to the speeding but not the speed could be considered an admission of guilt.. Just don't want to risk it.

Why would I know already?

[MSTRS]

It seemed to me that admitting to the speeding but not the speed could be considered an admission of guilt.. Just don't want to risk it.

Why would I know already?

Deny the whole thing, if you like. You did say here that you would put your hand up to speeding, just not the amount stated on the ticket. Probably best to deny all, first up. And hope they waive the ticket. If not, your defence in court will have to be the same..."wasn't me, y'honour. twas the nasty man in the car behind me"
If you cop to the lower speed in your letter, you admitted speeding and whatever is on the ticket will stand. Take that to court and hope the JP believes you (good luck).
Chances are, it'll be cheaper to just pay the damned ticket, demerits an'all.
The system is not set up to favour you...

I thought everyone knew that was how it was?

[Patrick]

As for the 250m guideline I was within that when officer A pulled me up. Officer B was stationed well down the road. Perhaps worth mentioning in any letter though..

Sure is. It might not be "law," but it is "policy." (With the exceptions... but not at that time of night...)

Yeah I don't really want to go in and waste everyone's time fighting it if they'll just amend the speed.

That said he did write "car" as the type of vehicle on the ticket so what else could he have got wrong?

minor Admin error only. But worth a mention in ya letter..... :whistle:

Any idea if I can write in and still later defend it in court? Kinda seems like an either or situation.

Write in. It might be canned. Nothing to lose, plenty to gain....


It can be both. First, you write in. Cop to the lower speed (perhaps) but contest the rest of it. Include the 'car' reference - it goes to believeability.
Their response letter will be the decider. If it tells you they are proceeding, then you go to court.
Thought you'd know that?

Motorbike slowing past a speed change sign, into a slower area, within 250 metres of the sign. Pursuing cop car going much faster to catch up to the slowing down bike will give a stronger (and "faster") radar signal than the slowing bike. Told you were caught doing 72, ticketed for 80...???

Start writing......

[QUOTE=discotex;1129483240]It seemed to me that admitting to the speeding but not the speed could be considered an admission of guilt.. Just don't want to risk it./QUOTE]

Can also show an honesty.... along with the points above....

[MSTRS]

Good points, Patrick. And ones that 'should' have resulted in a warning roadside. A reasonable cop would have done that. But this one has put it into the system, and it's my guess that it's a done deal now.
Yours truly
Cynical

[Patrick]

Good points, Patrick. And ones that 'should' have resulted in a warning roadside. A reasonable cop would have done that. But this one has put it into the system, and it's my guess that it's a done deal now.
Yours truly
Cynical

Nah.

The moment a ticket is written, it's in the system....

Vast majority are "fair cop, guv, yer got me..."

Some are KB members..... :whistle::shutup:

Some are just wrong.

The wrong ones stand out and get canned.

[MSTRS]

Nah.

The moment a ticket is written, it's in the system....

Vast majority are "fair cop, guv, yer got me..."

Some are KB members..... :whistle::shutup:

Some are just wrong.

The wrong ones stand out and get canned.

Yep. As is one of the 'written warning' variety. Had one of those myself, a year or 19 ago...
A reasonable cop might have indulged in a little finger shaking and stern parent lecture, then sent the 'victim' on his way. That would only be in the officer's notes?

[Patrick]

That would only be in the officer's notes?

Nah. Time, Rego, K4 for xxxx..... if that.....

[peasea]

Bear in mind this was like 11pm at night on a weekday. The only other vehicles on the road were the police involved.

There I was pootling along and a cop A (unmarked) pulls out behind me and starts to pull me over - fair cop I'm thinking at this stage.. I was a little over the speed limit after not slowing instantly down from an 80k zone. I was under 70km/h and probably doing 65.

As I'm slowing down I go past cop B as well. I pull over into a side street just past cop B (highway patrol)..

I get off the bike and start talking to cop A. Cop B turns on the disco lights and comes over as well. He then tells the younger cop A "I've got this one mate" so cop A gets back in his car and leaves.

Cop B then gives me the reaming for as speed I wasn't doing. Originally he claimed I was doing 72 or 73 but then wrote a ticket for 80km/h.

My guess is cop B had the rear radar on Cop A coming up behind me by mistake as he would obviously have been going faster. Or somehow he's got me way up the road in the 80km/h area. I dunno but he clearly though he was right and I was a danger to society.

Is there a way I can get hold of the reading from the original guy who pulled me over? Cop A's reading should be higher than cop B by heaps if cop B is to be believed. I expect it would match my version of events.


I'm happy to pay and take the points for what I was doing (~65km/h) but greater than 20km/h over is arse.

What's the best way to argue the case to fine me for the correct speed? (I don't actually care about getting off I just want the appropriate fine and points for what I did).

Any suggestions (via PM if you prefer) from lawyers or KB bike cops would be appreciated.

Just plead not guilty, go to court and have your say.

What you should have done was; whack yourself about the head furiously with a sockful of snooker balls, slip down to A&E, get the injuries photographed, make a complaint, drag the cops through the PCA, get the media involved, pay for 'witnesses' to back up your story and see if you can't ruin the cops' lives.

Fuck, I would.

[mnkyboy]

Just plead not guilty, go to court and have your say.

What you should have done was; whack yourself about the head furiously with a sockful of snooker balls, slip down to A&E, get the injuries photographed, make a complaint, drag the cops through the PCA, get the media involved, pay for 'witnesses' to back up your story and see if you can't ruin the cops' lives.

Fuck, I would.

I had to laugh

Is our system that fucked? Or just individuals?

[scumdog]

I had to laugh

Is our system that fucked? Or just individuals?

Depends who you ask.:whistle:

[Kickaha]

I had to laugh

Is our system that fucked? Or just individuals?

Just peasea:laugh:

[peasea]

I had to laugh

Is our system that fucked? Or just individuals?

Well Scummy's probably right, depends on who you ask; and the fact that there's some truth in what he says is irony in blue.

Fell off me chair I did.:laugh:

[peasea]

Just peasea:laugh:

Untrue.

There was this other bloke once who..........

[caseye]

Write in! wait for their response, see what they say.
If they say it stands, you plead "Not bloody Guilty" Me laud.
It goes to trial you should get a Magistrate not a bloody silly wet behind the ears JP and then tell em it was not you in that car, if that doesnt work do what Patrick said, explain it to the Judge/magistrate horror of horrors JP and take your chances.
Theres no harm in going all the way with this one, worst case scenario you lose, have to pay a fine and cop demerits.
Best case , the Lazy barstard who took the first coppers quota gets a rocket for slack Police work/T.O.ing and dodgy ticketing practise and you get to ride home with a bloody great big smile on yer dial.
Go for it.

[davereid]

As others have pointed out, its very likely that the radar was reporting the other patrol cars speed.

The cop who wrote you the ticket would have sincerely believed the figure on the screen, they are very confidence inspiring devices !

More experienced cops, have had enough "hello, that doesnt seem right.. tap the unit on the side" type experiences, and tend to view the radar more cautiously.

It always worth taking it to court, if you are not guilty. Thats what its there for.

[bsasuper]

I always turn a police stop into a episode of CSI, keep the copper answering questions(make them serious questions, dont take the piss), and camera out taking snaps of the road from all angles, notepad out taking down all answers(copper will think this strange).Would have been best for you to do this with both cops, and drawn a picture to show what a fuck up it is.

[caseye]

Huh?????????????
No law says you! can't take notes at the time, but why bother if it's a fair cop?

[p.dath]

I always turn a police stop into a episode of CSI, keep the copper answering questions(make them serious questions, dont take the piss), and camera out taking snaps of the road from all angles, notepad out taking down all answers(copper will think this strange).Would have been best for you to do this with both cops, and drawn a picture to show what a fuck up it is.

I suspect if you act "weird" like this you might be subjected to the new drug test provisions.

[jaykay]

As the Police have not bothered to correct their Reminder Notices, the recommended course of action is as follows:
Wait for the Reminder Notice. Date a letter 4 days before the due date of the Reminder, and put it in the post the evening of the day before the due date.

Write something like "Without a copy of the original infringement notice to fully identify the alleged offence; A hearing is requested"

Two things will then happen.

1. A letter from the Police saying you were too late to ask for a hearing
2. A Notice of Fine (and a final Notice of Fine)

When (and if) this is ever chased up you will need to fill in a Form 57 at the court saying you asked for a hearing - at which stage you will get sent another Reminder Notice............etc etc

The unknow factor at present is how long before it's chased up. The record as of today is a friend of mine who got stopped on Waitangi Day 2007, another friend has two outstanding, two years and 18 months. My only one is just coming up to a year.

Write down exactly what happened, take measurements, take photographs - in the unlikely event the Police try and prosecute you can have some fun.

[FstRyd]

jaykay's advice seems a goer. I know the current Police Speed Policy has the 250m grace period removed (the old policy in the link on page 1 expired in February 2009). The 10km/h speed tolerance has also been removed. Patrick should be able to confirm that.

[caseye]

Without giving away state secrets can you tell us how you know this?

[FstRyd]

I know a cop on a highway patrol unit. Apparently people were fighting tickets based on either the 10k tolerance, or the 250m grace period, so the Police took them right out of policy.

The Police policies aren't confidential, as evidenced by the fact the speed policy (although not updated) is on the website.

[caseye]

Cheers for that.

[scumdog]

I know a cop on a highway patrol unit. Apparently people were fighting tickets based on either the 10k tolerance, or the 250m grace period, so the Police took them right out of policy.

The Police policies aren't confidential, as evidenced by the fact the speed policy (although not updated) is on the website.

Yup, you cut a little slack and people moan:

Cos they think it's law that it's ok to speed 250 metres before entering a higher speed-change sign.

And think 118kph is 'only 8 kay over the limit man, c'mon, a ticket for 8 kay over the limit?'

SO to stop these niggles from misguided twats it's easier to just not bother with these tolerance/grace thingies...:shutup:

That way everybody is happy...:devil2:

[Patrick]

jaykay's advice seems a goer. I know the current Police Speed Policy has the 250m grace period removed (the old policy in the link on page 1 expired in February 2009). The 10km/h speed tolerance has also been removed. Patrick should be able to confirm that.

News to me....

Speed tolerance around schools is only 5kmph over, that's the only change I heard about.

But Scummy sums it up well. Give an inch (or 10kmph tolerance/250 metres) and still they moan.

Might get like some States in the U.S. - 1mph over the limit and your done for. (Make that 1kmph for us metric users....).

[swbarnett]

Might get like some States in the U.S. - 1mph over the limit and your done for. (Make that 1kmph for us metric users....).
The problem with this is that it's economically and damn near physically impossible for the average speedo to measure speed this accurately. Some tolerance is necessary - not to say "it's OK to spped a little" but to acknowledge the fact the driver may, in all good faith, believe that they're right on the limit when in fact they're slightly over. 10% appropriate fair to me.

In Switzerland it's acknowledged on the ticket - in a 50kph area 5kph is deducted from the recorded speed before any punishment is calculated.

[MSTRS]

...B]It goes to trial you should get a Magistrate not a bloody silly wet behind the ears JP [/B]...

It's a traffic offence, not a capital crime. JP is what to expect...

[DemonWolf]

News to me....

Speed tolerance around schools is only 5kmph over, that's the only change I heard about.

But Scummy sums it up well. Give an inch (or 10kmph tolerance/250 metres) and still they moan.

Might get like some States in the U.S. - 1mph over the limit and your done for. (Make that 1kmph for us metric users....).

or approximately 1.609344kmph :scooter:

[kwaka_crasher]

or approximately 1.609344kmph :scooter:

Except that 1kmph is 0.621371mph...

[discotex]

Thanks for your advice everyone. It really helped...

I've just faxed off my response so will see what happens.

[discotex]

Quick update....

Have heard back from the Police. Apparently if I disagree with their version of events it has to be at a hearing.

They've sent me a copy of the notes that have some interesting "facts" (read lies and ommisions of the truth).

I'll now take it to court and get the whole thing dropped if I can. What a fucking waste of time and taxpayers money.

[kwaka_crasher]

They've sent me a copy of the notes that have some interesting "facts" (read lies and ommisions of the truth).

Never saw that coming... :whistle:

[GOONR]

Good luck.