BHS too soft?

[Maki]

The initial push to write this was this thread:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=111146

"Had two owner/riders both learners.
Original owner rode it out of the sales yard and fell off. Insurance company sold it to someone who fixed and sold it to me 6 months ago.
Bike has been fully repaired except for superficial sratches on the exhaust."

That has me thinking back to the time I did my BHS. I reckon at least one of the people I took it with did not have what it takes to ride on the road. Mangled cones in the slalom test and worst of all non existent braking skills. This person was allowed to pass the test.

I also have to share what happened to me last Sunday. As I came out of church I saw across the street a red Ninja 250, just like the one I used to own. I thought nice, and went over to have a closer look. Lo and behold, it WAS my old bike. According to the odometer it had done less than 2.000 km since I sold it. Somehow the new owner(ers) had managed to rash up the fairings on one side, rash it up and break bits of it on the other side and snap one of the mirrors off.

So if this is your bike and you are reading this, what the hell happened (the description I have given should be enough for you to know who you are)? You have clearly dropped the bike at least twice in 2.000 km. Would you have benefited from more training and a stricter BHS test?

What do you think? Is the BHS too soft? Are people who can hardly ride a push bike getting out on the street on motorcycles? Why do people crash their bikes on the ride out of the sales yard?

[ital916]

When I did my bhs, a girl dropped the bike and failed the excercise where you get only one shot. She passed.
.
On the other side of the spectrum, my restricted test was very difficult as was my full license test. On my full test I ended up doing like eight u turns, on varying conditions roads as well as the test taking an hour, roughly.

[CookMySock]

my restricted test was very difficult as was my full license test. On my full test I ended up doing like eight u turns, on varying conditions roads as well as the test taking an hour, roughly.Contrast that with my restricted and full - both tests terminated in ten minutes flat. "That'll do mate, you know what you're doing. Mumble, driving around wasting my gas.."

But yeah I agree the BHS test is a joke. I guess there has to be a minimum standard, but its just a bit too minimal IMO.

Steve

[Motu]

I never had a BHS test....after 40 years I can still fall off in the drive way.Should I surrender my license?

[Qkkid]

When I did my bhs, a girl dropped the bike and failed the excercise where you get only one shot. She passed.
.
On the other side of the spectrum, my restricted test was very difficult as was my full license test. On my full test I ended up doing like eight u turns, on varying conditions roads as well as the test taking an hour, roughly.

Just to clarify things
If you drop your bike in the process of doing the BHS test it is a instant fail.
After 5 points its a fail.
It is up to the instructors to do their job right.

[mossy1200]

I remember Andy Bowell (ex f3 champ) gave me my skills test.
He drew the tightest 90deg corner in chalk on wet carpark seal and told me to hammer it then do hand turn signal while riding around corner in the wet maintaining 50clicks.
I was told if the rear wheel didnt come up during brake test then I had failed.
I was told crash the shop loan bike and it becomes your first motorbike and you can pick it up if and when you ever pass my test.

Times are too soft now

[McJim]

I think the BHS, the restricted test and the full test are all too soft. On paper they don't seem too different to the UK system with the same maneouvres etc HOWEVER it is the lack of strict adherence to the rules that makes the big difference. too many things are glossed over. Back in the UK it's a huge deal if someone passes first time round....HUGE.

My driving instructor was amazed that I passed (as I had the misfortune to land the strictest examiner in North East London at the time)

[p.dath]

A lot of skills can only be gained with experience and riding time.

But perhaps more of a safety focus, rather than skills persee, may be in order.

[bogan]

When I did my bhs, a girl dropped the bike and failed the excercise where you get only one shot. She passed.


was she hot? cos hot wimmins get a free ride you know, well from me anyways:whistle:

[Icemaestro]

I did mine with Riderskills up here in aucks, watched the main guy fail someone in the group before my partner did it about 6 months back (just on points lost) - I would recommend them, they have a good focus on safety, do lots of one on one help if you do the learning thing before it, and clearly aren't afraid to fail people if they're not up to scratch

[chef]

i did mine with road safe (andrew) he was a hard bastard but fair and good wasnt soft at all

[Maki]

i did mine with road safe (andrew) he was a hard bastard but fair and good wasnt soft at all

Andrew is an excellent teacher. I would recommend him to anyone.

[BiK3RChiK]

When I did my BHS test (in the rain) everyone passed even though one fulla nearly fell off his bike and had most of us shaking our heads at his riding 'skills'. I have seen the tester fail someone though, although it was more a case of 'come back next week and I'll do some one on one instruction with you cause I hate failing anyone!'

Some instructors need a good boot up the rear!

[Katman]

Those who run basic handling skills courses need to seriously consider what it is they are trying to achieve.

Sending learner riders out on to the road without adequate ability is potentially sending someone to their death.

[nsrpaul]

yes its to soft!

but my mrs did a defensive driving course for her car and didn't drive a car

[bezajel]

i did mine with road safe (andrew) he was a hard bastard but fair and good wasnt soft at all

I did mine with Andrew, too (including the 6 hours or so training beforehand). There were a couple of people sent home throughout the day with a "you're not going to pass, come back another time". I know at least one of those people was pretty sick, though, and it was pissing down with rain on the day.

However, I'm not sure I'd say it was too soft. You've gotta remember the range of backgrounds of people coming to the test - from those like me who had never been on a motorbike before, to those who had been riding scooters for a while, to those for whom the test was just a formality. I was surprised that a few people turned up on their bikes to do the test. For me it was the very first step (well, the hours of introductory training beforehand was).

That said, it didn't prepare me for riding on the road, in traffic (I have no car driver experience either), on hills, or on my Scorpio (which is a bit zippier than the Suzi 100cc thingie I did the training on). It did give me a starting point for riding around a carpark and getting confident enough to start on the road. I'm sure there are people who think "oh I've done my BHS now I have AWESOME SKILLZ0RZ!", and perhaps those are the ones who are crashing.

And I have dropped my bike, plenty. Not crashed it, mostly just stalling, and falling over, or just losing balance and falling over, or trying to do a tight turn on a steep gradient and falling over. Once the balance goes I can't hold the bike up, and it's a small bike! It happens.

As I see it, BHS comes before learning to ride. It's just because there's no structure for riding lessons or supervision etc. that people think it means they don't need them, and are just waiting out their time for their restricted.

Anyway, that's what I think..! You asked!

[Conquiztador]

Interesting.

I started riding at 12 and got my full at 16.

My oldest son, who is now 20, started riding at 4 years old. My youngest, who is now 8, is riding competetive MotoX.

My 10 and 12 yo's have also been riding and know how to change gears, how to stay upright and how to brake. But both have a distance to go before they are there.

This is what I see these days; a bike is not a life choice anymore. It is a cheap transport to and from work used by people who have no understanding or passion for bikes. They would have no idea what a sparkplug is or how to check if a chain is worn. They have never used a 125cc 2 stroke on a paddock or been riding at 100k/h down the beach.

No, I have no solution to this. Just a sign of the times I suppose. Today we are expecting to be able to buy everything. Even bike riding knowledge. If you have more money you can get a better knowledge...

Sad.

[Icemaestro]

It's a good point that - I think that especially applies to scooter riders - most don't even service their vehicles!! Since I started riding about a year and a half ago I've made a point of learning how to do service stuff on my bikes. Can't say I've ever ridden a two stroke (except a 50cc scooter) or been riding on the beach though :-P.
Heaps are getting into riding, yes it's to save money, but I think most people riding motorbikes develop a passion for them too :-).

[WuZards-Eugene]

Going back to the question at hand - Yes, the BHS test is too soft. You no longer need to have the skill to pass the test.

When I done my BHS with Stevens Driving School, we were made to do each part until he was satisfied that we could do it competantly. Nearly all of the test was unsuitable for a sports bike, or anything else that had less of a steering arc than a GN. Some parts were a challenge on my Z200 at the time. Even now, I would probably have to put a bit of effort to do that test again. The emergency stopping part of the test was rather practical aswell. We were to get to 60k (and there wasn't a very long run up either) then stop before we reached the last cone, which meant that you were just on the verge of locking up.

After watching a friend do his BHS test, I was thoroughly dissapointed at how easy it was. No tight as fuck turning circles, no "when you go past that cone slam the brakes on as hard as you can without locking up."

I had a crack at the slalom on my ZX10 and was able to comfortably get through without even clipping a single cone. No way should it be that easy.

[Holy Roller]

Technically one should just rock on up and sit the test with out any practice. I give the people time to get used to the bike and how it handles. Give them a practice through the course to build their confidence. At this point one knows who is able to pass and who needs more practice. Before letting them attempt the course I suggest that they come back another day after some more practice, after all they have paid a significant amount to sit the test. Out of the last 50 odd people that have been put through the course 3 have had to get more experience. And these 3 have never ridden before. Some basic tootling around the paddock to provide some confidence, turning, changing gear, clutch work, figure 8s, and cone weaves. After a couple of hours over a couple of sessions usually one is able to have the skills to pass the BHST. The BHS means that one is ready to learn to ride a bike on the road.

While most of the test seems irrelavent and is often impossible on some bikes (ask my mate who has been riding for years and was my guinepig for my assesment and failed the cone weave and the test on my daughters GSX and a mates GN) it does show confidence and competence to start to learn to ride.

[SMOKEU]

There is no point in having a BHS test since there is nothing stopping a learner driver who has never driven before to get behind the wheel of a Mitsubishi Evo on a motorway in rush hour traffic with their idiot mates teaching them how to drive, as long as they have their L plates on.

[Askelon]

Sounds like the BHS is still as bigger joke as its always been. Sat mine like 15 years ago. Think the average person spent a whole 5 mins on the bike when I did it - may have been a little longer but I doubt it. Should require real training before being let on the roads... Same goes for cars. I find it amazing how after 15 years of not driving a car at all I can still legally get behind the wheel of anything I want - just waiting for that big lotto win to buy a car ;).

[madlange]

It is called a basic handling skills test, not ride perfect for the road test, it is designed to test your basic handling skills on a motorcycle. Other skills will come from riding on the road, granted in New Zealand it could do with a bit of a revamp.
In the UK you have to do a minimum of two hours on the road with an instructor to gain similar qualification. Many people could benefit from some road experience. And not have to go into a car park at night and learn from non instructors set up on a course that is not safe.
I think all basic handling skills instructors should do their best to keep people safe after they leave the course, but ultimately they can only give these people the skills and not the mentality. The decisions are made by the person riding the bike. The basic handling skills test is not too soft, the instructors have to insure they do their job right.
If they want to make sure someone gets a little more training then what is the problem with bringing someone back for more training?

[BiK3RChiK]

It is called a basic handling skills test, not ride perfect for the road test, it is designed to test your basic handling skills on a motorcycle. Other skills will come from riding on the road, granted in New Zealand it could do with a bit of a revamp.
And there-in lies a problem.... The other skills come through trial and error. The reality of on-road riding is not tested until the Restricted stage of the license process. I've seen some people get their Basic Handling Skills who would be, not only a danger to themselves on the road, but a danger to other road users as well. The whole thing needs a re-look IMO. For some people the BHS is a piece of cake, but to others they should be required to do more training before gaining their BHS.


In the UK you have to do a minimum of two hours on the road with an instructor to gain similar qualification. Many people could benefit from some road experience. And not have to go into a car park at night and learn from non instructors set up on a course that is not safe.

If they want to make sure someone gets a little more training then what is the problem with bringing someone back for more training?

Your suggestion of further on-road instruction is probably something that could be tacked onto the BHS test, after they have completed the current car-park requirement. However, the problem with that is, they don't have a license at that stage and, therefore, would be riding on the road illegally. Maybe a provisional license could be issued by the Instructor after the car-park requirement for the 2-hour on-road part of the test.

The problem at the moment with getting someone back for more training is that they don't/won't because of time and money. If they have their BHS then what's the point (in their mind it probably isn't even considered)? It's not compulsory, so therefore unnecessary (sic). And who is going to pay for that? The Instructor? Course Provider? The Student? The whole aim of doing the course at present, is to get the certificate in your hand so you can go and do the scratchies, with minimal time, effort and money.

To my mind, the whole thing needs a re-vamp. But good luck to the person(s) whose job it becomes.......

[marine0089]

Fact still remains that everyone has to start somewhere and everyone at one point has been a learner on the roads. Learners are always going to do some stupid things as you learn by doing. This is why the learning period is so dangerous and so many people bin their bikes.

The BHS is really just a filter to help learners limit the amount of stupid things they are going to do. This does however rely a lot on the instructor and how hard he is going to be (the harder the better in my opinion).

I had never ridden a bike before sitting mine so had a training session before sitting it. The instructor was happy with my ability and how quickly I had picked it up that he allowed me to sit the test to which I passed. In contrast, the other boy that was there was on his 3rd training session and was still stalling on takeoff etc. Needless to say the instructor didn't put him through his BHS which we all thought was a good idea.

[marine0089]

Another thing to take into consideration is that the BHS just ensures you have the basics to ride a bike. It doesn't teach you the road rules or how to apply them on the roads. Car learners have the luxury of having an experienced driver right next to them babying them through every aspect of driving. Bikers don't have this luxury. This makes the learning curve and the chance of learners doing something stupid even greater. This obviously doesn't apply to people who already have a car license.

[magicmonkey]

The problem at the moment with getting someone back for more training is that they don't/won't because of time and money. If they have their BHS then what's the point (in their mind it probably isn't even considered)? It's not compulsory, so therefore unnecessary (sic). And who is going to pay for that? The Instructor? Course Provider? The Student? The whole aim of doing the course at present, is to get the certificate in your hand so you can go and do the scratchies, with minimal time, effort and money.

I disagree on that one, I think there's a real market for follow up training immediately after the BHS. I've tried the Wellington schools and the only thing I could find was the advanced rider training from roadsafe; when I asked them about it the told me I should have a few thousand k's or about 6 months under my belt before going on it.

Fair enough, there are some complete idiots who get a bike, pass their test and think they're the bee's knees but I believe them to be a minority (idiots usually aren't but I'm making an exception here!) If there was some training that afforded me some on-road instructor time, on my own bike I would be willing to pay and go back as many times as it took to feel safe. As it was, being ejected from the BHS with a couple of hours experience and virtually no skills beyond start and stop left me feeling completely overwhelmed for a while and may have lead to me picking up bad habits, not that I'd know if I've got bad habits or not though, I'll have to wait the 6 months for the advanced course to get some instructor time in!

[CookMySock]

I have a couple of theories about steering ;

Those who have never known anything else except to sit upright and simply steer by pushing forward on either bar, will revert to that in an emergency.

And further to that, those who have ridden around for a year and never had bar-steering demonstrated, or hammered into their brain, will never get it because of their bad habits.

Hey I might be wrong, but if I am right, then as soon as the learner can remain upright, he/she should be dragged kicking and screaming into bar-steering, and made to do it until it comes out their ears. THEN we will have less crashes where riders are unable to stay in their lane.

Steve

[JohnC]

I have a couple of theories about steering ;

Those who have never known anything else except to sit upright and simply steer by pushing forward on either bar, will revert to that in an emergency.

And further to that, those who have ridden around for a year and never had bar-steering demonstrated, or hammered into their brain, will never get it because of their bad habits.

Hey I might be wrong, but if I am right, then as soon as the learner can remain upright, he/she should be dragged kicking and screaming into bar-steering, and made to do it until it comes out their ears. THEN we will have less crashes where riders are unable to stay in their lane.

Steve

Yeah,your wrong.
I worked all that out for my self,well before any form of training came along.
And riders that aready claim to know it all still go wide,,,,,,,,because of confidence,not because they don't understand counter steering.
It is a "basic" skills test,,,,,so long as you don't fall off,you should pass,the thing is only to give you the opertunity to learn more,not a final test of roadrace skills,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they'd need to come here for that:shifty: