Fatal 4wd accident on Maungatapu Track (28 October)

[NordieBoy]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3007446/4WDs-owner-under-scrutiny

Looks like it's half way down the bit from the bridge and he's caught the front wheel in that rain rut and it's pulled the steering around.

[Padmei]

Yeah terrible. Is that just before the bridge on this side where its really slippery moving rocks? I've nearly come to greif there - didn't want to look over the side.

[johannvr]

Not good. Have also had a mishap with a 4WD before on an off-road track - it happens easily & sometimes without "intent" or intentional mismanagement. End of the day - it's an accident, and those happen. Would be sad if it has a negative knock-on again around offroad-type stuff (read Adv biking, quad biking et al)

[NordieBoy]

Yeah terrible. Is that just before the bridge on this side where its really slippery moving rocks? I've nearly come to greif there - didn't want to look over the side.

Yep. just past the left hander and 1/3 of the way to the right at the bottom. There used to be a mother of a rain rut/washout there and I've seen a ute parked there with the left front wheel hanging right out over the bank. The rut starts parallel and curvs off to the left and could just grab the wheel and pull it over if you're going the right speed.

[CookMySock]

Aw shit it was just a kid. My kids are all tucked up tight here.. I checked..

Steve.

[NordieBoy]

The track still has a rope up at the Nelson end saying it's closed and a permanent looking post and professional looking reflective sign saying the "Maumgatapu" track is closed at the Pelorus end.

[Monstaman]

Typical knee jerk reaction again, they should see sensibility, you don't see them closing the main road with posts and tape because someone killed them self on the road!

If they did that you would be able to drive out your gate.

[thommo77]

Don't quote me on this,but, Ive heard the reason it is closed is nothing to do with the death.
Its because 4WD's have dug up the track so much that they have damaged some fibre optic cables????

[warewolf]

Maungatapu Track closed to assess damage - Nelson City Council (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nelsoncitycouncil.co.nz%2Fmau ngatapu-track-closed-to-assess-damage%2F&ei=zQJVS8mVCdKHkAW34aSgCg&usg=AFQjCNG2opolJzkRWt3Np7S3wZYbTTR_Mg&sig2=mKCADPvvi2tsCuWUEocKDA)

[JATZ]

Don't quote me on this,but, Ive heard the reason it is closed is nothing to do with the death.
Its because 4WD's have dug up the track so much that they have damaged some fibre optic cables????

Thats the reason I got too, came straight from the neighbours friend who walks the dog of a guy who's sister runs the cafe @ Pelorous

[Monstaman]

Thats the reason I got too, came straight from the neighbours friend who walks the dog of a guy who's sister runs the cafe @ Pelorous

Must be true now that I read it on the net!!:crazy:

[warewolf]

I've been in contact with Nelson City Council. The track is closed until they sort out who will pay for its upkeep. Stay tuned for more news after a meeting of the interested parties this Friday.

Upkeep? We don't need no steekin' upkeep!

[Padmei]

More like upkeep - what upkeep?

[CrazyFrog]

Wow, they've even postponed the Mangatapu mountain bike race until June because of track closure.
Come on NCC, how much damage would a few lycra clad treadlie bikers do? Pretty lame excuse I say. Just ban 4wd'ers and open it up for bikes only. We could even do our own special maintenance, build a few little kickers here and there:Punk:

[Crisis management]

Interesting......having been through there on tuesday, it didn't seem too damaged to me.

I approached the Council offices for permision to access the Mangatapu track and was granted it subject to the (dam?) caretaker agreeing, he rides bikes as well so was almost enthusiastic! I had a pleasant wander through and can safely say it looked in good condition to me. Access from the other end is barely controlled at all with only a small sign saying the track was closed.
The reason for the closure given to me, was that it was due to the fatal accident and the ongoing investigations into that, and, as Colin says, there is a meeting today to make some substantive decision about it.

[Monstaman]

Just ban 4wd'ers and open it up for bikes only. We could even do our own special maintenance, build a few little kickers here and there:Punk:

I am a keen wheeler and reckon the Mangatapu track is a Sunday drive at best, I would term it scenic.

We as 4 wheelers actually do a lot of track work cleaning slips etc down here as we carry shovels etc, the farmers think it is great and everybody is happy.

As a keen Adv biker, 4 wheeler, MTBer and hunter I see this closure as a knee jerk reaction, this has happened to many places prior as the cotton wool brigade try to save us from ourselves and snip out anything that resembles fun.

Sometimes shit happens and we just have to deal with it and move on however the buracratic plonkers love to make sure their jobs are safe by making a meal of it.

[warewolf]

Update, for those who don't get The Nellie Mail:

Track still closed, options considered (http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/3289037/Track-still-closed-options-considered)

[clint640]

So who do we contact at the council to get permission? We're heading down shortly, & while I've heard that there is alledgedly a highway that runs from Pelorus bridge to access Nelson I'd much rather use the normal route over the Maungatapu.

Maybe they should get the dumbasses that put the fibre optic cable down the middle of a 4x4 track to go back & put it somewhere more sensible.

Cheers
Clint

[warewolf]

Forgiveness is easier than permission :)

We haven't heard of any bikes being stopped at all, and there's been quite a bit of two-wheeled traffic.

[Padmei]

So is there a proper gate now or just the "rope". How closed is closed?

[Woodman]

Bloody 4wds, Reminds me of the damage they caused up big river at the old schoolhouse.

[Underground]

Interesting......having been through there on tuesday, it didn't seem too damaged to me.

I approached the Council offices for permision to access the Mangatapu track and was granted it subject to the (dam?) caretaker agreeing, he rides bikes as well so was almost enthusiastic! I had a pleasant wander through and can safely say it looked in good condition to me. Access from the other end is barely controlled at all with only a small sign saying the track was closed.
The reason for the closure given to me, was that it was due to the fatal accident and the ongoing investigations into that, and, as Colin says, there is a meeting today to make some substantive decision about it.

Yeah, its just all this fookin PC shite , no one wants to make a decision in case they end up liable for something .
And all we want to do is go for a bloody ride !
I find that once I put my helmet on and start the bike common sence prevails and I just go where the hell I like

[cooneyr]

Update, for those who don't get The Nellie Mail:

Track still closed, options considered (http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/3289037/Track-still-closed-options-considered)

After reading that it seams that you lot need to get out there with a shovel, sover the services up again. ;)

How exposed are the cables up there and where is it i.e. is it in an area easily repaired or is it on a steep section? Wanna go for a ride and take some pics Nordie?

Cheers R

[NordieBoy]

The track is far less exposed/eroded than the first Dusty and no worse than the 3rd.

I've never seen a cable.

If there was something it'd be somewhere on the 1st pylon track (that's closed off with mounds of clay) as there's only 2 other bits that have a thick mud/clay base and have 4wd spoor.

But fill a steep track with clay/dirt and what do you expect when it rains?

[Crisis management]

You lot are beginning to sound like the off road arseholes around here that ride without permission everywhere and end up losing us access to off road tracks......how about a group approach to the council and sorting propper access out. I was impressed at how accomodating they were when approached and I would suggest that the grown up and polite way is to ask first.

Don't fuck up the off road access for everyone, you guys have it good down there now so make sure you hang onto it.

[Padmei]

Don't get too worked up about it crisis. The only one that knows if people go over is the caretaker & he's pretty laidback. Motrbikes over there do less damage than the natural forces of erosion & windfall.

[Skinny_Birdman]

You lot are beginning to sound like the off road arseholes around here that ride without permission everywhere and end up losing us access to off road tracks......how about a group approach to the council and sorting propper access out. I was impressed at how accomodating they were when approached and I would suggest that the grown up and polite way is to ask first.

Don't fuck up the off road access for everyone, you guys have it good down there now so make sure you hang onto it.
He said what I was thinking.

[NordieBoy]

The council has turned a blind eye and the caretaker tells you to just "go through, no problems".

We're waiting to hear what the "meeting of concerned parties" came up with.

[Crisis management]

The council has turned a blind eye and the caretaker tells you to just "go through, no problems".


As long as someone (the caretaker) has given permission then I'm happy, some of the replies here didn't seem to indicate that and those replies brought out my rant.

[Underground]

Its a public road and has been since the horse and cart days when it was the only road to NN from that side as far as I know.
It certainly isnt closed to bikes and personally I dont have an issue with the way its maintained ,even though its part of my regular route to and from town.
If a service provider wants the priveledge of cutting a cable into a steep public 4x4 road they should be out there maintaining their investment instead of sitting on their hands and putting signs up .

[Crisis management]

Its a public road and has been since the horse and cart days when it was the only road to NN from that side as far as I know.


I would check that "fact" if I were you as the council seems to think it is private land and not a public road...they were very clear about that to me.

[cooneyr]

Its a public road and has been since the horse and cart days when it was the only road to NN from that side as far as I know.
It certainly isnt closed to bikes and personally I dont have an issue with the way its maintained ,even though its part of my regular route to and from town.
If a service provider wants the priveledge of cutting a cable into a steep public 4x4 road they should be out there maintaining their investment instead of sitting on their hands and putting signs up .


I would check that "fact" if I were you as the council seems to think it is private land and not a public road...they were very clear about that to me.

Two points. Firstly the track is not a legal road between the Maitai Rd and a few hundred meters east of the summit. Our friendly surveyor has check up on this. However it is a historic route which is a positive for maintain access if things get ugly down the track i.e. legal battles if we want to go there.

Second, I'm sure there is a NZ Standard around the installation and protection of services and I'm sure it is up to the service providers to adequately protect their services.

I've just had a though - I suspect is happening is that the services are under threat from 4x4s etc and the service providers know the road is not a legall road so they are pushing the Council to stop access so they do not have to put much if any effort into service protection. Has this been said explicitly WW or Nordie? This might explain why the care taker never gives motobikes any grief and yet I bet he doesnt let many 4x4's through.

If this is the case the Council is piggy in the middle and as they are also the land owner then this means there is even more impetus for us to not annoy the Council. Track users have no real rights other than historic used rights, a weak stance, so we should be talking with the council about what we can do to help keep the track open i.e. form a working group for minor maintenance works, or fencing of areas where there are high risk services etc. Providing the labour may go a long way to help sway the Council for our benefit. Kinda like adopt-a-highway.

Cheers R

[Skinny_Birdman]

Two points. Firstly the track is not a legal road between the Maitai Rd and a few hundred meters east of the summit. Our friendly surveyor has check up on this. However it is a historic route which is a positive for maintain access if things get ugly down the track i.e. legal battles if we want to go there.

Second, I'm sure there is a NZ Standard around the installation and protection of services and I'm sure it is up to the service providers to adequately protect their services.

I've just had a though - I suspect is happening is that the services are under threat from 4x4s etc and the service providers know the road is not a legall road so they are pushing the Council to stop access so they do not have to put much if any effort into service protection. Has this been said explicitly WW or Nordie? This might explain why the care taker never gives motobikes any grief and yet I bet he doesnt let many 4x4's through.

If this is the case the Council is piggy in the middle and as they are also the land owner then this means there is even more impetus for us to not annoy the Council. Track users have no real rights other than historic used rights, a weak stance, so we should be talking with the council about what we can do to help keep the track open i.e. form a working group for minor maintenance works, or fencing of areas where there are high risk services etc. Providing the labour may go a long way to help sway the Council for our benefit. Kinda like adopt-a-highway.


As R says, the only way anyone is going to force the Council's hand is likely to be in court, in this instance, and I wouldn't bet the farm on the outcome.The fact that a lot of people use it and have done for a long time doesn't make it a legal road.
As an aside, I'm sure you are right about protection of services, R - does it come under NZS 4404?

[cooneyr]

....As an aside, I'm sure you are right about protection of services, R - does it come under NZS 4404?

It is probably covered in 4404, subdivision and development NZS for those who don't know, but that is probably for domestic services. I'm sure there will be a standard for the national grid as well - even if it is a industry managed standard in the same way that NZTA as a client maintains industry standards and specifications for road materals and construction methods.

Cheers R

[warewolf]

so they do not have to put much if any effort into service protection.Hasn't been said, but I don't think that would work, as there are too many organisations requiring access: two power co's, BCL Broadcasters and Telstra. The comms ppl wouldn't want to risk heavy power transmission service vehicles damaging their fibre optics.

IIRC the last big service to the road was after/during a power co's maintenance period 3 years ago, when it was closed for months but was tidied (even metaled in parts) upon re-opening.

No doubt it may be easier to retain access for PTWs (powered two wheelers) than 4wds based on damage or risk thereof, particularly if we agree to perform some maintenance in return, but we really don't want to go there. We should aim to keep the status quo. However, the question becomes how & when do we act? It is usually easier to be part of the decision-making process than try to get a decision reversed later. Teaming up with the 4wds gives us greater numbers, and is consistent with the traffic laws, but is at the cost of weakening our damage argument. If push comes to shove, do we want to set a precedent where we draw a dividing line - literally and figuratively - between ptw & 4wd?

Oh, and it ain't just a 4wd track... I've seen plenty of regular 2wd vehicles on the Nelson side up to and including the summit.

Tonight I will speak to someone who may have inside knowledge on how to proceed.

Question: does the Council have to consult before deciding to close it? In other words, can they close it without notice, or are they obliged to consult with the citizenry prior? IF it was currently a designated road, then I'd be fairly sure of a consultation. But since it isn't, they may not be bound by any of those rules.

[Skinny_Birdman]

Question: does the Council have to consult before deciding to close it? In other words, can they close it without notice, or are they obliged to consult with the citizenry prior? IF it was currently a designated road, then I'd be fairly sure of a consultation. But since it isn't, they may not be bound by any of those rules.

If it was a legal road, then under the Local Government Act 1974 there would have to be some level of consultation. In this instance, use of the road has been on sufferance, so I wouldn't imagine there is any legal obligation. Moral perhaps.......

[warewolf]

That's what I was thinking. I'm not presuming the council wants to stop access, but I would understand them trying to get the other utilities ppl to cough up for maintenance if the council has no legal requirement to pay for it themselves.

[NordieBoy]

If it was a legal road, then under the Local Government Act 1974 there would have to be some level of consultation. In this instance, use of the road has been on sufferance, so I wouldn't imagine there is any legal obligation. Moral perhaps.......

Under sufferance maybe, but the current track has been in constant use since 1860 and the earlier Maori track before that.

[Amz]

Its a hard one. I 4x4 and mtbike it. Hang of a lot easier to carry shovels etc in the truck. 4x4's will always use the road to access the pylons. Just like most moto riders hate 4x4's, most mtbikers hate moto's ripping up their tracks too. I spend weeks building a mtb track and regularly groom them only to have some fool on a moto rip it up. Trouble is, it usually only takes one or two idiots to wreck it for everyone else. At the end of the day I reckon we all have to team up.

[thommo77]

This was part of the article following the accident -

Mr Tiernan said the Maungatapu Track could be considered a public road under the Land Transport Act.

"We will be speaking to people and working through an examination and considering what action might follow.

"We're well aware of the fact that the registered owner of the vehicle gave the keys willingly to a person on a restricted licence," Mr Tiernan said.

He said there was a possibility that the vehicle owner had committed a number of offences by providing the keys to the 16- year-old, and the police were "not ruling anything in or out".

Nelson 4 Wheel Drive Club president Bob Dickinson described the track as a grade-one or two track out of a maximum of five grades in difficulty.

He said it was a steep gravel track from the Nelson side to the saddle, and mainly a single-lane track.

"It's not regarded as a particularly difficult track, but you couldn't drive the family saloon up there.

"It's a well-used, popular track and is a legal road," Mr Dickinson said.


Can someone explain the jurisdiction issue here? Is it with LTA or NCC??!!

[warewolf]

"Could be considered a public road" is kinda meaningless in terms of demanding access. The Land Transport Act states that any private land open to the public, is treated legally as a public road, ie driver & vehicle licences required, insurance applies etc. Typical use of that clause is a supermarket carpark - private land to which the public has access, so road rules apply. Ditto beaches.

The issue here is that contrary to the 4wd club prez's statement, as far as the professionals who have access to the cadastral(?) information - both the council and those on here - it's not a legal road. Obviously, in the past it has been, being the original route to the east of Nelson (hence Murderer's Rock) but it appears not in modern times.

PS Mr Dickinson - you could drive the family saloon up there, I've seen it done multiple times. Well, at least, you could before the 4wders churned it into a super-cross like track.