Why bikers speed ahead

[tigertim20]

got involved in a conversation on another site, and thought I would share my thoughts here. we were discussing why many bikers ride a little faster than the average cage (110-120).
Now we werent talking about going at 180km/hr everywhere. Nor am I saying I am a perfect rider, this is just my thoughts, putting them out there to se what others think of it, bear with me it is in a few posts.
initial comments seemed to be that people felt their bikes 'rode more happily' at just over 100km, than on or below it. I added to this with:


there is also a physics explanation as to why bikers speed ahead, I will try to explain it, and then give a digram.
I will use soccer as an analogy.
keep in mind that on a motorcycle we are much more at risk from the elements and road surface than other vehicles, eg dead animals, shiny tar, rutting in the surface, and potholes present dangers to bikers that do not exist (usually) to cars, especially in corners. hit a dead possom banked over in a corner and you'll know about it.

now essentially the issue is that (keeping in mind how much more road and conditions affect us) is visibility, our ability to see ahead and recognize those factors in the upcoming road in time to take evasive action or change our line.

who here has played soccer? consider the goalie, and you are running towards him to see the goal.
if the goalie stays dead in front of the goal, the target is larger to you, his body covers only a small area of the goal.
However if the goalie runs towards you, he effectively covers a greater area, and restricts your ability to strike a scoring kick.

now apply the goalies position, and related ability of the attacker to score, to a biker's visibility behind a car.
the closer the car is to you, the less visibility you have, apart from peripral vision.
Black dot in the following diagram is the biker, the green blob the car and the red lines are his lines of vision. blue dots are road imperfections/obstructions.
also consider the distance being covered per second at say 100km/hr and how this affects the ability to react in time.
also consider that if we fall back, we get tailgated, or passed, and the passing vehicle will sit in front, again restricting our vision.

[tigertim20]

i was asked if the biker in the diagram on the left was tailgating, here was my response:

No, thats at a safe following distance.
any vehicle ahead of you is going to restrict your vision, the closer you are to it, the more it restricts your vision. I am saying this is why many of us riders pass other vehicle and travel at a slightly higher speed, because if we slow down, people catch up and either tailgate us, or pass us and remain in front, restricting our vision as in the left hand diagram.
If we pass these vehicles though, then we put ourselves onto an open piece of road where we have plenty of forward visibility like in the second diagram, and thus have time to detect and respond to potential hazards in the road surface.

[tigertim20]

keep in mind that (by my calculations) t 100km/hr, you are covering 27.8 metres per second. if you adhere to the 2 second rule for following you are 55.6 metres behind the other vehicle.
That mean that a vehicle (at safe following distance) in front of you drives over a dea possom in your riding line ahead. The distance from the possum to your bikes front wheel is 55.6 metres, from the nanosecond that it comes into your visibility (eg no longer concealed by the lead vehicle)
so travelling at the speed limit, 27.8 metres a second, it takes roughly:
half a second to see it, as you are scanning everywhere while riding it, so in that time you have travelled 13.9 metres, and it is now only 41.7 metres away. say another half second to acknowledge that what you are seeing is a hazard and realize you need to act, another 13.9 metres, now its 27.8 metres, or 1 second from being hit by your front wheel.
in that time, you need to choose where you will move to, and how you will react, hit the brakes? go left? go right?, then once you have chosen you need to move your fingers onto the brake, or lean left, or lean right, and take into account the little bit of time it takes for the bike to react to your movements.

So you can see that even at the recommended following distance (2 second rule) you have fuckall time to react. keep in mind two things:
1) when in a long sweeping corner, it may take more time/energy to see, acknowledge and react.
2) thats just the first hazard, what if there is another following it? and another after that?.

This is why I pass vehicles, so I can get to a spot where I have more ahead visibility.

[tigertim20]

just thought I would share these thoughts with you to see what your thoughts on it were.
i wonder how long before this turns into a safety campaign or tailgating thread? lol

[Headbanger]

I have no idea what your on about.

However, Its good practise for a bike (or any vehicle for that matter) to be in their own space on the road if they can.

I pass cars because I can do so easily, If I couldn't, I wouldn't. I can speed up and slow down at any time in a tiny amount of time and space. This enables me to be in a space that I'm comfortable with, and sometimes its just fun....

No need to over think things.....

[tommygun]

I get what TT is on about, however I agree with HB on this one as to why I pass cars.

[atothek]

the exact same argument can be given to slowing down and increasing your following distance so you can see more of the road ahead. if you are travelling faster than the traffic flow then by going faster you will simply catch up to the next vehicle ahead again and again. in fact motorcyclists have an advantage over cars (which they need due to reasons you have given) in that they are higher up and generally have a better view of the road anyway.

if people tailgate then the you should increase your following distance so you have more time to slow down and not get rear ended.

[slofox]

I pass cars because I can...(ht. ht. ht.)

[R-Soul]

Another factor is that of intent. When you ride with purpose, you show intent. When you show intent, cages know what to expect from you. When you tiddl-i-po all over the show, speeding up, slowing down and generally loitering around their back bumper, they get all fidgety and nervous about you, and they start doing stupid things like braking to let you pass, or speed up to get away from you, or a multitide of other didgy things.

It is like dogs in pack. If every dog doesn't know his place, they start getting edgy and thinking that they are somewhere in the pecking order that they are not.

It is better for a bike to show intent, dont even give a cage an inclination that it should be doing anything else other than watching you pass it smoothly and then watching you smoothly and steadily F#$% off into the distance (or at least far enough that it realises that it is NOT going to pass you back).

As soon as there is uncertainty, it is like two people moving towards each other in a passageway, both stepping to the same side and then the other way again. Except that one person is 2 tons, and the other is you.

Another thing I always do is makes sure I make obvious signals to cars, like look over my right shoulder if I am changing lanes to the right. Aclear signal of intent. Some assholes may try to speed up and block your lane changes (and good luck to them, because there are damn few cars -if any- that can out accelrate my bike) but at least they know what you are going to be doing, and they are not going to choose that moment to try and light a cigarette, or put on makeup, or their own lane change.

Slightly offtopic - This may not be applicable to all bikes, but I always accelrate hard into a gap. I figure that if there is a gap, and I am btit further ahead than a cage, then if I accelerate into it, there is no cage that will be physically able to aoput accelerate me. If they start accelerating at the same time by some unfortunate coincidence, they will HAVE to give way to me, because I WILL be in the gap sooner than them. Pure physics. Whereas if I am at the ame speed as them, and start moving over, they could accelerate and put us in a potential collision situation.

[vifferman]

While your post was somewhat convoluted (I just skim-read it), I agree in principle with your thesis. I hate following anything I can't see past when on my bike; worst are trucks/buses, then vans/SUVs, then anything else that obstructs my vision. The reason is twofold: firstly, I need to see ahead to identify hazards in time (anything from road surface to obstacles, dangers, etc.)
Secondly (and most importantly), when riding a bike, you are generally looking not at the road immediately ahead (like most other drivers do), but through the corner to the one beyond that. Not being able to do that impairs your riding. As you said, slowing down to leave a suitable (very large!) gap invites the vehicle behind you to pass, which puts you back in the same position. Better to pass safely.

Oh - lastly, there is more turbulence following a vehicle, which also corresponds to its size.

[vindy500]

nah people just feel like they have a bigger penis when going faster than everyone else

[scumdog]

Another factor is that of intent. When you ride with purpose, you show intent. When you show intent, cages know what to expect from you. When you tiddl-i-po all over the show, speeding up, slowing down and generally loitering around their back bumper, they get all fidgety and nervous about you, and they start doing stupid things like braking to let you pass, or speed up to get away from you, or a multitide of other didgy things.

It is like dogs in pack. If every dog doesn't know his place, they start getting edgy and thinking that they are somewhere in the pecking order that they are not.

It is better for a bike to show intent, dont even give a cage an inclination that it should be doing anything else other than watching you pass it smoothly and then watching you smoothly and steadily F#$% off into the distance (or at least far enough that it realises that it is NOT going to pass you back).

As soon as there is uncertainty, it is like two people moving towards each other in a passageway, both stepping to the same side and then the other way again. Except that one person is 2 tons, and the other is you.

Another thing I always do is makes sure I make obvious signals to cars, like look over my right shoulder if I am changing lanes to the right. Aclear signal of intent. Some assholes may try to speed up and block your lane changes (and good luck to them, because there are damn few cars -if any- that can out accelrate my bike) but at least they know what you are going to be doing, and they are not going to choose that moment to try and light a cigarette, or put on makeup, or their own lane change.

Slightly offtopic - This may not be applicable to all bikes, but I always accelrate hard into a gap. I figure that if there is a gap, and I am btit further ahead than a cage, then if I accelerate into it, there is no cage that will be physically able to aoput accelerate me. If they start accelerating at the same time by some unfortunate coincidence, they will HAVE to give way to me, because I WILL be in the gap sooner than them. Pure physics. Whereas if I am at the ame speed as them, and start moving over, they could accelerate and put us in a potential collision situation.

Naked-arse, I don't agree with this very much at all, each to their own but not what I do.:confused::crazy::wacko:

And that 'Slightly offtopic' bit - how does the car driver you are rocketing up behind know you're only doing so for YOUR 'safety' reasons as mentioned ?

As opposed to thinking you're a squid on seeing you swerving in after passing the car and thinking you're about to veer out and pass them and think they'll be helpfull by braking hard to make it easier for you to pass them and (in their eyes) to save you having to cut in when passing THEM??

(as they saw you do in their mirror- assuming they use the thing)

[R-Soul]

While your post was somewhat convoluted (I just skim-read it), I agree in principle with your thesis. I hate following anything I can't see past when on my bike; worst are trucks/buses, then vans/SUVs, then anything else that obstructs my vision. The reason is twofold: firstly, I need to see ahead to identify hazards in time (anything from road surface to obstacles, dangers, etc.)
Secondly (and most importantly), when riding a bike, you are generally looking not at the road immediately ahead (like most other drivers do), but through the corner to the one beyond that. Not being able to do that impairs your riding. As you said, slowing down to leave a suitable (very large!) gap invites the vehicle behind you to pass, which puts you back in the same position. Better to pass safely.

Oh - lastly, there is more turbulence following a vehicle, which also corresponds to its size.

Which part was convoluted?

[Ender EnZed]

nah people just feel like they have a bigger penis when going faster than everyone else

It's mostly what he said.

But from a safety perspective there's also the matter of it being better not to have someone behind you. And its difficult to achieve this much of the time if you're leaving a large gap for reasons mentioned. If I'm following a car at car speed and there's no one behind me then I don't usually see any reason not to just leave a 6 second gap if I don't want to go faster than it. Only because I like having a licence.

[Insanity_rules]

Because we can so there!

[hang0ver]

I speed ahead cause I wanna get where I'm going faster, or I wanna get a buzz. I'm talking motorways/open road here.

Other days I'm happy to cruise at 90 and chillax caus I got nowhere to be in a hurry and I'm just in that kind of mood.

[AllanB]

What? Lost me there.

Why do motorcyclists tend to travel faster than cars ........

I think you'll find that somewhere inside, part of the whole bike thing is speed, acceleration and the rush it brings.

As to how one applies that speed and acceleration on a public road is an entirely different matter.

[george formby]

I absolutely agree with controlling the space around you. I maintain the speed limit as a rule but if I'm coming up to a series of corners & I know the campervan, hi-lux or holden myopia in front is going to become a hazard for me then I will pass if safe to do so & enjoy it.
Another thing to consider is how we ride bikes. They are fast, agile & offer no distractions in the way of heat, music, phones or pies. When Herr Bangerman tried to impose a blanket horsepower restriction on the EU a while back, Maggie Thatcher wanted proof. Her scientists found that riders of large capacity motorcycles have the highest levels of observation & concentration on the road. Bar none! She veto'd him, yeah.
I reckon we think quicker & are way ahead of a car driver in our planning. This allows us to travel at a higher average speed because we are looking & thinking further ahead.

[BikerDazz]

TT is either too smart or thinks too much.
I'm back into riding after many years and ah, I just use my common sense.
I do agree with R-Sole's point about telegraphing your movements ,but again jsut common sense I would have thought.

Whatever, I just love riding.

[R-Soul]

Naked-arse, I don't agree with this very much at all, each to their own but not what I do.:confused::crazy::wacko:

And that 'Slightly offtopic' bit - how does the car driver you are rocketing up behind know you're only doing so for YOUR 'safety' reasons as mentioned ?

As opposed to thinking you're a squid on seeing you swerving in after passing the car and thinking you're about to veer out and pass them and think they'll be helpfull by braking hard to make it easier for you to pass them and (in their eyes) to save you having to cut in when passing THEM??

(as they saw you do in their mirror- assuming they use the thing)

Geez I didn't say put your front wheel on the front car's boot did I? I said accelerate into the gap as opposed to merely swerving in at the same speed as the car. Half throttle or even less is still more than most cars can do. And being at a faster speed than the car you are moving in front of will also mean that a rear end from them is less likely - its just pure physics.

Also, I was talking about lane changing by moving into a gap on a motorway or double lane, not "cutting in after passing". Although in the passing situation you would presume that you had foreeen that there would be a gap to move into before you started passing anyway.... otherwise there would not be a gap to move into. And besides, when you are passing a car, you would not need to accelerate into it as you would be moving faster than the car already - or else no overtaking would occur!

Re intent:
Cars believe bikes go faster than them. And most do. Fact. So dont upset their apple cart by riding slower, or change their expectations by sitting behind their bumper. Fit into their expectations (in a safe way - again passing anyone at 160kph is just going to frighten them and cause them to do stupid things again), and it all becomes quite predictable. So you pass a car and move ahead of them and then can slow down to their speed in open road with high visibility for you. If you then approach another car, do teh same.

This is my left fireld interpretation of the mental state of vehicle drivers and riders, and when accidents occur. Obviously it is just my opinion and not fact.

But think about it like this: when two people walk down a passageway towards each other, and one shows clear intent, the other will accomodate them for the sake of clarity, even if the other person's choice slightly inconveniences them.

[george formby]

But think about it like this: when two people walk down a passageway towards each other, and one shows clear intent, the other will accomodate them for the sake of clarity, even if the other person's choice slightly inconveniences them.


Oy, fatty! Breathe in, I'm coming through with a pint.

[R-Soul]

[/B]
Oy, fatty! Breathe in, I'm coming through with a pint.

:laugh: I didn't say kick their door as you passed...

[KoroJ]

If I travel slightly quicker than the cars, then I generally only have to worry about the dickhead in front of me.

[vifferman]

Which part was convoluted?
Not yours - tigertim's post.

[JohnC]

I don't speed ahead,in fact I've found that at the 100kph I usualy cruise at, very very few cars catch up.
An those clowns in their XYZ Subarus an other such cars,either they can't drive,,, or something else,,,like trucks,buses,the old guy in the hat doing 90kms holds them up,,no hang on,that old cunt with the hat is me when I'm not on me bike,,,,anyway,they don't keep up even at quiet conservative speeds,so I don't see any speeding ahead going on,just riding at a comfortable pace as all..

[george formby]

I don't speed ahead,in fact I've found that at the 100kph I usualy cruise at, very very few cars catch up.
An those clowns in their XYZ Subarus an other such cars,either they can't drive,,, or something else,,,like trucks,buses,the old guy in the hat doing 90kms holds them up,,no hang on,that old cunt with the hat is me when I'm not on me bike,,,,anyway,they don't keep up even at quiet conservative speeds,so I don't see any speeding ahead going on,just riding at a comfortable pace as all..

Yap, not speeding but maintaining a higher average speed due to our uncanny ability to look, think & not brake in the apex of a corner.

[duckonin]

nah people just feel like they have a bigger penis when going faster than everyone else

Some women can ride faster than others, where does that leave them Penis wise??:woohoo:

[george formby]

Some women can ride faster than others, where does that leave them Penis wise??:woohoo:

Perhaps this indicates the size they prefer & hence some guys ride faster than others as an indicator of their lower centre of gravity.:gob:

[Maki]

Another factor is that of intent. When you ride with purpose, you show intent. When you show intent, cages know what to expect from you. When you tiddl-i-po all over the show, speeding up, slowing down and generally loitering around their back bumper, they get all fidgety and nervous about you, and they start doing stupid things like braking to let you pass, or speed up to get away from you, or a multitide of other didgy things.

While I struggle a bit with the original post I can identify with this. Everything works much more smoothly if you ride like you mean it.

[lizardb0y]

However, Its good practise for a bike (or any vehicle for that matter) to be in their own space on the road if they can.


That sums it up for me. I don't like to be behind anything bigger than a bike, because:


I can't see far enough ahead;
I hate getting dust and stone chip in my face;
I don't trust them not do do something stupid that puts me at risk.

I don't like to be right in front of anything bigger than a bike because:


I stop a fuck load faster than they do;
I don't trust them not do do something stupid that puts me at risk.

Because I ride a bike I have the power and maneuverability to place myself wherever on the road I feel comfortable, so that's exactly what I damn well do.

[rocketman1]

I agree with your comments, I hate tailgateing cage
rs, I would much rather just accelerate past.
When Behind a cage I you never know what is on the road that you may hit , that the cager passes over, it gives you no time to react to the lump of 4x2 sitting in the middle of the road.

I was following a cage going to Raglan one day a few years ago, around a bend the car swerved and brake quickly to miss a large sack of wood in the middle of the road, as I was too close to the car I did not see the wood till the last second, it was better luck than skill that I missed it.

Had i been following further back, I would have had plenty of time to react.

Go figure... Just another of lifes lessons

[MarkH]

An those clowns in their XYZ Subarus an other such cars,either they can't drive,,, or something else

Maybe they are all on 90 points?