Don't fall for Nick Smith's bullshit

[Stan]

After today's Ulysses Club protest, Nick Smith tried to spin it like this: Nasty ACC wants to charge you a fortune to register your bike but, since I'm your friend, I'll rein them in and your rego won't go up so much.

Don't fall for it. This isn't an ACC decision, its purely a political decision, taken by Nick Smith and the puppet ACC board that he appointed.

The real agenda is to portray ACC as a basket case so that they can justify opening it up to competition and make the insurance industry VERY happy.

[James Deuce]

The real agenda is to portray ACC as a basket case so that they can justify opening it up to competition and make the insurance industry VERY happy.

NZ Insurance companies are, in the main, uninterested in the type of "cover" ACC provide. They can't do it anywhere as cheaply or as comprehensively, and certainly not in the way that a Compensation scheme does. They aren't geared for liability legal battles and don't want to spend the money necessary getting there.

[Stan]

NZ Insurance companies are, in the main, uninterested in the type of "cover" ACC provide. They can't do it anywhere as cheaply or as comprehensively, and certainly not in the way that a Compensation scheme does. They aren't geared for liability legal battles and don't want to spend the money necessary getting there.

Yes, I have noticed that they're sounding a bit less eager than they did last time around, probably because they still feel the pain of being kicked in the nuts by Labour. But that won't stop them taking the money and we'll all end up paying the price through reduced coverage and increased premiums.

You've only got to look at what a great job the government did by opening the electricity industry to competition to see that this is a BAD idea.

The changes to ACC are about a lot more than us paying higher rego for our bikes, its about the government attempting to destroy a bloody good institution.

[Pedrostt500]

Don't trust any politician as far as you can kick em!.

[StoneY]

Nick hunted me down after almost everyone had left, and tried his flawed numbers on me....

Epic FAIL

I don't believe I out debated a senior cabinet minister in less than 3 minutes...but I did!

He is so unsure of his data, despite repeating it over and over....I feel were gonna win I really do

[Coldrider]

Nick hunted me down after almost everyone had left, and tried his flawed numbers on me....

Epic FAIL

I don't believe I out debated a senior cabinet minister in less than 3 minutes...but I did!

He is so unsure of his data, despite repeating it over and over....I feel were gonna win I really doThey are just like corporates, full of bluster and overtalking, their failure is that they get personally involved, instead of sending layers of 'buffers' below them to face the fodder.

[RentaTriumph]

There's statistics then theres bullshit. Politicians talk the latter.

[Winston001]

The real agenda is to portray ACC as a basket case so that they can justify opening it up to competition and make the insurance industry VERY happy.




You've only got to look at what a great job the government did by opening the electricity industry to competition to see that this is a BAD idea.

The changes to ACC are about a lot more than us paying higher rego for our bikes, its about the government attempting to destroy a bloody good institution.

Oh puuleaaseee Stan, conspiracies are one thing we do not need. Just a quick reminder that NZ is the least corrupt country in the world. And the Winston Peters fiasco before the last election made it pretty clear that political parties in NZ get sod-all donations. There is zero chance of insurance companies paying off a National/Maori/ACT coalition of MPs.

Instead some MPS - probably including Nick Smith - believe ACC would be forced to be more efficient if it was open to competition from insurance companies. The objective is to reduce the cost of cover which would benefit our economy - and be popular with voters.

I happen to disagree with this approach because I think ACC largely works well. But there are no conspiracies.

[Stan]

Oh puuleaaseee Stan, conspiracies are one thing we do not need. Just a quick reminder that NZ is the least corrupt country in the world. And the Winston Peters fiasco before the last election made it pretty clear that political parties in NZ get sod-all donations. There is zero chance of insurance companies paying off a National/Maori/ACT coalition of MPs.

Instead some MPS - probably including Nick Smith - believe ACC would be forced to be more efficient if it was open to competition from insurance companies. The objective is to reduce the cost of cover which would benefit our economy - and be popular with voters.

I happen to disagree with this approach because I think ACC largely works well. But there are no conspiracies.

I'm not saying there's any consiracy. Just that Smith and the National party are ideologically driven towards competition/privatisation whether the figures support it or not.

ACC isn't broke and doesn't need fixing.

[StoneY]

The angle we need to present is that Nick Smith is a (erhem) 'victim' of bad advice and misinformed underlings, and get him to see the stats from our point of view

I got halfway there today....he was engaging with me till he tried '50,000' bikes....earlier its been 74 thousand, 83,000...

True number from MOT stats I threw in his face is 116,000 and change
He panicked...no shit panicked, Laxi, Hawkeye and a few others tried hard not to laugh!

NOW

MISINFORMED is not necessarily the same as 'out to get you' even tho we feel like they're out to get us

So we can win our case by re-directing the attention to the fact that we are subsidizing everyone else, and when its truly analyzed there are better ways to prop up ACC

Which aint actually broken.... anyway, as Stan so rightly notes


So the panel of the BIKEOI will present exact stats, and analysis, and a petition at least

And we can only note the massive, MASSIVE public support we got today.

[caseye]

Go Stoney boy! c ya on the 17th mate.
Shoulder to shoulder.

[MacD]

I happen to disagree with this approach because I think ACC largely works well. But there are no conspiracies.

I agree there a unlikely to be any real conspiracy, but there certainly is a political agenda at work here. We are continually fed the line that competition will result in decreased costs, however international comparisons with other private insurance-based systems, such as operate in Australia and Canada, show that ACC is already more efficient in terms of costs.

ACT is simply (and I do mean simply) ideologically opposed to a state-owned accident insurance system.

Of course there should be debate about the level and range of coverage of a system like ACC, but the current approach is to claim that the sky is falling (somebody really needs to explain to Nick Smith the difference between a loss and a future liability) in order to justify political, rather than economic, actions.

[nothingflash]

There's statistics then theres bullshit. Politicians talk the latter.

Statistics prove this :yes:

[FJRider]

The decision to "attempt" the increases are ACC's, but approval must be gained from the "Minister" first ...

[Voltaire]

Nick is misinformed he needs steering in the right direction.
Luckily the steering committee is arriving in Wellington on the 17th.

We are coming to help you Nick.
Have calculator.
Will travel.

[caseye]

Yep a really wheely big calculator with bigg finger holes and everyfink!50,000 registered road going bikes, what the hell??? come on Nick Smith sack your reserach dept and ask us we'll at least tell you the truth.

[Pedrostt500]

The angle we need to present is that Nick Smith is a (erhem) 'victim' of bad advice and misinformed underlings, and get him to see the stats from our point of view

I got halfway there today....he was engaging with me till he tried '50,000' bikes....earlier its been 74 thousand, 83,000...

True number from MOT stats I threw in his face is 116,000 and change
He panicked...no shit panicked, Laxi, Hawkeye and a few others tried hard not to laugh!

NOW

MISINFORMED is not necessarily the same as 'out to get you' even tho we feel like they're out to get us

So we can win our case by re-directing the attention to the fact that we are subsidizing everyone else, and when its truly analyzed there are better ways to prop up ACC

Which aint actually broken.... anyway, as Stan so rightly notes


So the panel of the BIKEOI will present exact stats, and analysis, and a petition at least

And we can only note the massive, MASSIVE public support we got today.


What He also probably learned was he, isn't up against, just a bunch of greasy neanderthal bikers, He will get his underlings to research your Numbers and look for another angle that suits his side of the story.
Every time we fire one of our silver bullets we must make sure that there is another to be loaded into the chamber, of the argument, don't get sucked into reveling all of your side of the argument to early, because that will give them time to counteract it, even if it is with a lie, because a lie will run around the world before the truth can get its boots on.
As I said this afternoon, this battle will go on well beyond the 17th, so don't under estimate our oppisition, particurly if they are on the back foot.
the real battle is not so much with the Politicians regardless of wich party they belong to, but more so with the ACCs policy analists who make up the proposals.

[caseye]

Well said Pedrostt500, and a truer word couldn't have ben spoken in good time.

[FJRider]

Perhaps at this time ... MORE people will be looking at the figures given and saying .... hang on a minute ... thats not quite right ...

[caseye]

FJRider, I too hope so, caue it would stop all the BullShiti n it's tracks if it was understood for what it is.Misinformation as a means to an end by ACC executives/beaurecrats.

[Winston001]

Every time we fire one of our silver bullets we must make sure that there is another to be loaded into the chamber, of the argument, don't get sucked into revealing all of your sides of the argument too early, because that will give them time to counteract it, even if it is with a lie, because a lie will run around the world before the truth can get its boots on.

Very nicely put. The way to win an argument is to have a number of different points which you reveal one at a time. But beyond that, you have to think of the likely responses from the other side and have answers ready. I think we have good prospects with this issue.


...the real battle is not so much with the Politicians regardless of wich party they belong to, but more so with the ACCs policy analists who make up the proposals.

I agree. No politician likes doing something unpopular but the ACC managers have a job to do and they are the ones who need to be shown their analysis is wrong.

[davereid]

this battle will go on well beyond the 17th, so don't under estimate our oppisition, particurly if they are on the back foot.

Bling most appropriately awarded.

ACC have divved the motorvehicle account firstly in half, then latterly into even small segments - cars, 600cc+ bikes, 250-599cc bikes etc etc.

This approach WILL find segments that dont meet their cost profile.

No doubt if the car account was thus divided you may find forward control vans and minis dont meet their cost profile either.

You may find Subarus crash more often, in more serious ways.

Divide other acounts up, you will certainly find the pedestrain, cyclist, snowboarder and rugby accounts in the red as well.

Ohh, and don't forget the little old lady broken hip account, that won't make it either.

REGARDLESS of the statistics, we have a good argument for the motorcycle levy to be struck at parity with cars.

Everybody I have discussed it with, recognises their presence in one of the other groups that may or may not be subsidised, and is easily swung to supporting us.

IMHO we don't need to "prove" we don't crash or pay our way.

Joe Public is fully aware that there are plenty of things he does that arent charged fully to him either.

[idleidolidyll]

As the motorcycle riding public is dominated by males and males were significantly more in favour of ACT and National at the last elections; this is YOUR FAULT!

Don't you remember the National Party trying to destroy ACC last time they had power so they could give it to (mainly) foreign insurance companies?

They played NZ for suckers and won: tax cuts for the wealthy and tax increases for the rest by stealth or with a bludgeon.

Forget about attacking the ACC Corp, attack National and ACT; it really IS them driving this policy and it is the beginnning of an attempt to devalue ACC in order for Kiwis to more readily accept privatisation.

The ACC has $11 billion in funds and collects more than a billion more in fees every year than it pays in claims. This hike is not about making ACC better; it's about destroying ACC completely and handing it to offshore interests

[StoneY]

As the motorcycle riding public is dominated by males and males were significantly more in favour of ACT and National at the last elections; this is YOUR FAULT!


I never voted for National in my 22 years as a voter so far

Green/Labour every time dude, and other than the 'management' at my work I know no others who voted National either, the business owners and over 100k salaries were the Nat's best buddies...others rightfully or wrongfully were just sick of Helen is how JK got in

[caseye]

He's Back!

[pzkpfw]

No doubt if the car account was thus divided you may find forward control vans and minis dont meet their cost profile either.

I used to work at the Motor Registry.

They actually DO have statistics that show certain colours of car are more likely to be involved in crashes than others.

Imagine Joe Public being told his Black car will now cost $50 more per year to license than his neighbours' White car!

[Wasp27]

I never voted for National in my 22 years as a voter so far

Green/Labour every time dude, and other than the 'management' at my work I know no others who voted National either, the business owners and over 100k salaries were the Nat's best buddies...others rightfully or wrongfully were just sick of Helen is how JK got in
OMG.... if this is for real, and not as I hope... a piss take....please, please, please let Les do the talking

[StoneY]

OMG.... if this is for real, and not as I hope... a piss take....please, please, please let Les do the talking

I intend to but for the record buddy, where were you yesterday???

I had a chat with Nick Smith myself...at Parliament....on the steps....

[idleidolidyll]

I never voted for National in my 22 years as a voter so far

Green/Labour every time dude, and other than the 'management' at my work I know no others who voted National either, the business owners and over 100k salaries were the Nat's best buddies...others rightfully or wrongfully were just sick of Helen is how JK got in

And i expect many others to say the same or to deny that they voted National or ACT. While it is obviously true for some, for most it is not.

FACT: Males voted mainly for the right wing parties: National and ACT

despite the truth that some males didn't vote right wing, the FACT remains that most males here probably did vote right wing.

Don't fall for the nonsense that "over 100k salaries" voted National into power; there just aren't enough people in that bracket to swing it.

This is National Party and ACT policy: destroy ACC and allow foreign insurance companies to own us completely.

FACT: ACC collected more than a billion dollars more than it paid in claims last year and that is the norm. FACT: Accident insurance is a cash cow and the Aussies are already talking about the multi billion dollar opportunity to make profits from NZ.

Vote with your feet and your mouth; this is ACT and National Policy not ACC policy: attcak the politicians and attack their parties.

[Skyryder]

[QUOTE=idleidolidyll;1129489688]And i expect many others to say the same or to deny that they voted National or ACT. While it is obviously true for some, for most it is not.

FACT: Males voted mainly for the right wing parties: National and ACT

despite the truth that some males didn't vote right wing, the FACT remains that most males here probably did vote right wing.

Poll Are you happy with the change of power


Yes 64.50% voted they were happy with the change of power

No 15.38%


I don't give a rats arse they are all the same. 20.12%


Skyryder

[Jantar]

Nick hunted me down after almost everyone had left, and tried his flawed numbers on me....

Epic FAIL

I don't believe I out debated a senior cabinet minister in less than 3 minutes...but I did!

He is so unsure of his data, despite repeating it over and over....I feel were gonna win I really do
I believe I have found the source of his flawed data, and its one we need to prepare for. From http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/statistics/motor-vehicle-registration/docs/2008.pdf table 30 we find that there are 106,454 motorcycles and 30,939 mopeds in New Zealand, excluding those with lapsed or cancelled registrations. Table 31 gives 55,180 motorcycles and 19,960 mopeds excluding those that have an exemption licence or vehicles that are unlicensed.


Table 39 gives 101,457 motorcycles and 28756 mopeds excluding those with lapsed of cancelled registrations. Further in Table 39 we find 71,648 motorcycles and 25,304 mopeds excluding those that have an exemption licence or vehicles that are unlicensed.

The date chosen for excluding those with an exemption (reg on hold) is 30th June. I wonder what the numbers would be if the date chosen was 31st Dec?

However there is no explanation for the huge discrepency in numbers between tables 30/31 and table 39.

[Wasp27]

where were you yesterday???

....
Oh, buddy... I was 340kms away, but will be there with bells on the 17th. Like I was on the last protest ride we organised and lead re the Wire Rope Barriers. As will the rest of us from up here....we will be doing the 650+kms day ride to protest. I'm really sorry I couldn't find the time or the money to do both rides. I'd also like to point out how pleased I am to know that the likes of Nick Smith and his cohorts have no idea that this forum exists and are therefore not privy to any of your constructive comments:rolleyes:

[pete376403]

The decision to "attempt" the increases are ACC's, but approval must be gained from the "Minister" first ...
Don't overlook the fact that not too long ago the previous board of ACC was sacked by Smith and a more compliant one, more attuned to the right wing agenda was installed.

Smith can't blame the board for providing him with incorrect information, they're only doing what they were put in place to do.

[dipshit]

Oh puuleaaseee Stan, conspiracies are one thing we do not need. Just a quick reminder that NZ is the least corrupt country in the world. And the Winston Peters fiasco before the last election made it pretty clear that political parties in NZ get sod-all donations. There is zero chance of insurance companies paying off a National/Maori/ACT coalition of MPs.


A lot of policies our government introduce are quite often out of their control. Every time they sign a trade agreement or some such thing with larger nations, we lose more and more sovereignty. In fact in this international community, the idea of a nation's sovereignty is considered a thing of the past. The trade agreements, treaties and conditions for loans and other such things they have signed dictate policies.

It makes no difference who we vote for and if it is a National or Labour government. A lot of the decisions that end up affecting us were made outside these shores.

A politician's job is largely trying to find a way to introduce a policy to the nation without causing too much of an uproar.

[Stan]

Don't overlook the fact that not too long ago the previous board of ACC was sacked by Smith and a more compliant one, more attuned to the right wing agenda was installed.

Smith can't blame the board for providing him with incorrect information, they're only doing what they were put in place to do.

Exactly. Smith didn't like the previous ACC board because they were of the opinion that ACC was working well. He sacked most of them, appointed a new board that agrees with his point of view.

ACC isn't the enemy here. Its Nick Smith and his puppet ACC board. You'll also find that the vast majority of ACC staff are not happy with the proposed changes.

[Insanity_rules]

Nick hunted me down after almost everyone had left, and tried his flawed numbers on me....

Epic FAIL

I don't believe I out debated a senior cabinet minister in less than 3 minutes...but I did!

He is so unsure of his data, despite repeating it over and over....I feel were gonna win I really do

Yeah, I was in ear shot. Sounded like a total douche. Nick didn't even know the number of registered motorcycles on the road. :bash:

[Kiwi Graham]

Doesnt seem we are the worst users of ACC!

Its all the buggers that dont pay a levy!!!!!

[Brian d marge]

A lot of policies our government introduce are quite often out of their control. Every time they sign a trade agreement or some such thing with larger nations, we lose more and more sovereignty. In fact in this international community, the idea of a nation's sovereignty is considered a thing of the past. The trade agreements and treaties and other such things they have signed dictate policys.

It makes no difference who we vote for and if it is a National or Labour government. A lot of the decisions that end up affecting us were made outside these shores.

A politician's job is largely trying to find a way to introduce a policy to the nation without causing too much of an uproar.

The imf have warned asked advised NZ to look at its health costs

http://www.imf.org/external/np/ms/2009/032309.htm

snip

9. Over the long term, key budgetary risks are the growing healthcare costs and public pension outlays. These risks should be addressed before the demographic pressures intensify, by reforming health care and the public pension schemes.
Monetary policy
10. Falling oil prices and the downturn in activity, as well as tight monetary policy earlier on in the cycle, have helped ease inflationary pressures and reduce inflation expectations. Staff projects headline inflation to fall to less than 1 percent in December 2009 (year-on-year), and to return gradually to the middle of the 1-3 percent range by 2012-13.
11. The substantial easing of monetary policy since mid-2008 has been appropriate. The sizable reduction in the official cash rate over the last few months has largely, though not fully, been passed through to rates for new borrowing, particularly for residential mortgages. The monetary stimulus already in train should help support demand.
12. The Reserve Bank should continue to reduce the official cash rate. The outlook for growth and inflation is weak, credit growth is slowing, and credit standards have been tightened. Also, increased spreads on bank borrowing and lower inflation expectations have offset some of the impact on real lending rates. Finally, households with fixed rate mortgages will benefit from lower interest rates only with a lag.
13. The mission agrees with the authorities that further easing of monetary policy should proceed in smaller steps, and that rates should be set so that New Zealand remains competitive in international capital markets. By contrast with many advanced countries, monetary policy remains effective in New Zealand. However, the staff encourages the authorities to consider alternative instruments, including quantitative easing, and their potential efficacy in the unlikely event that such measures are needed.






the Government is just.......




http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJprEyXMrIk (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJprEyXMrIk)






Stephen

[Ixion]

As the motorcycle riding public is dominated by males and males were significantly more in favour of ACT and National at the last elections; this is YOUR FAULT!

Don't you remember the National Party trying to destroy ACC last time they had power so they could give it to (mainly) foreign insurance companies?

They played NZ for suckers and won: tax cuts for the wealthy and tax increases for the rest by stealth or with a bludgeon.

Forget about attacking the ACC Corp, attack National and ACT; it really IS them driving this policy and it is the beginnning of an attempt to devalue ACC in order for Kiwis to more readily accept privatisation.

The ACC has $11 billion in funds and collects more than a billion more in fees every year than it pays in claims. This hike is not about making ACC better; it's about destroying ACC completely and handing it to offshore interests

Our gripe, and our remit is with ACC levies on motorcycles. primarily, the unjustifiable increase, secondarily , how that are assessed and charged.

This is not a party political issue.

If the National government agree to cancel the increases and in future put us on the same levy as cars, hten they will be Official Good Bastards too.

Anything other than motorcycle levies is an issue for another time and place.

[short-circuit]

Our gripe, and our remit is with ACC levies on motorcycles. primarily, the unjustifiable increase, secondarily , how that are assessed and charged.

This is not a party political issue.

If the National government agree to cancel the increases and in future put us on the same levy as cars, hten they will be Official Good Bastards too.

Anything other than motorcycle levies is an issue for another time and place.

Bollocks. Unless it's seen in it's wider political context, we can look forward to more of the same in the future.

[Paulo]

Guy Fawkes was the first and last person to enter parliament with honest intentions.

[short-circuit]

Bollocks. Unless it's seen in it's wider political context, we can look forward to more of the same in the future.

Aside from vigilante behaviour and mass disruption, applying political pressure is the only way to further our cause. This government is driving these changes (as was always their intention)

[Brian d marge]

I had some free time

Stephen

[Wasp27]

Our gripe, and our remit is with ACC levies on motorcycles. primarily, the unjustifiable increase, secondarily , how that are assessed and charged.

This is not a party political issue.

If the National government agree to cancel the increases and in future put us on the same levy as cars, hten they will be Official Good Bastards too.

Anything other than motorcycle levies is an issue for another time and place.

Thank God..... the voice of reason. Thank you Les... we certainly appreciate what your doing for the cause....well done. At the end of the Day it'll be Nick Smith that will have to sign off any changes.... best we keep him inside the tent. Keep focused on this one issue please.... Cheers W

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Our gripe, and our remit is with ACC levies on motorcycles. primarily, the unjustifiable increase, secondarily , how that are assessed and charged.

This is not a party political issue.

If the National government agree to cancel the increases and in future put us on the same levy as cars, hten they will be Official Good Bastards too.

Anything other than motorcycle levies is an issue for another time and place.

Yes yes yes. Please people, read what Les is saying. Think about it. Maybe you have to have life experience to understand what is going on here. No need for blame or finger pointing. Stop talking politics and focus on the issue. If we make division we will be divided and we will fall. We need a strong voice.

[Stan]

Our gripe, and our remit is with ACC levies on motorcycles. primarily, the unjustifiable increase, secondarily , how that are assessed and charged.

This is not a party political issue.

If the National government agree to cancel the increases and in future put us on the same levy as cars, hten they will be Official Good Bastards too.

Anything other than motorcycle levies is an issue for another time and place.

I don't agree. Sure we can take the narrow, selfish view, and just whine about how it affects our pockets. But that ignores the big picture which is that this government are determined to degrade the ACC. In the long term that will mean less cover and higher costs for all of us.

[Gixxer 4 ever]

I don't agree. Sure we can take the narrow, selfish view, and just whine about how it affects our pockets. But that ignores the big picture which is that this government are determined to degrade the ACC. In the long term that will mean less cover and higher costs for all of us.

It is not practical to take on the entire ACC system and expect to win anything. We as bike riders must deal with the problems we have. And as I understand it, it is the way the costs are allocated.
Small, well thought out and researched steps will win the battle and in time win the war. If I thought for a minute the cost we are being asked to pay were the actual cost we as riders are responsible for I would say “ shut up and pay up”, but they are not.


And by answering this I have done what I asked others not to do :bash: I rest my case..........

[Winston001]

....But that ignores the big picture which is that this government are determined to degrade the ACC. In the long term that will mean less cover and higher costs for all of us.

With respect I don't think the government has any desire to degrade ACC for the simple reason that the government has to pick up the pieces.

I do agree about higher costs but those costs are for paying physiotherapists and rehabilitation. Just like healthcare, these costs can be endless as technology provides ever increasing answers to accident consequences.

[short-circuit]

It is not practical to take on the entire ACC system and expect to win anything.

I don't think Stan is advocating for this. The changes proposed to ACC are politically engineered and ideologically driven. The only thing that hurts political parties is lost votes and or the threat of this.

[MacD]

For anybody who thinks that this issue isn't political, have a look at this Herald article from 2007 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10481024) in which the briefing papers from ACC to the then new minister, Maryan Street, note that (my bold):


The papers also deal with cross-subsidisation between road users.

They say about one third of new serious injury claims in the Motor Vehicle Account were by motorcyclists and pillion passengers.

"The average cost of motorcycle injuries per year is $1500 per registered motorcycle.

"At present motorcyclists pay approximately $204.66 in registration and a limited petrol levy due to motorcycle efficiency," the papers say.

"In the existing process, other road users are cross-subsidising motorcyclists."

However, ACC has no plans to change that because, it says, charging the full cost to motorcyclists would introduce an affordability and fairness issue.

"It is accepted that they are involved in high-cost serious injuries but they are not always at fault."

Somewhat different to the direction the ACC is taking under the new Nick Smith appointed Chair and board.

[Wasp27]

It is not practical to take on the entire ACC system and expect to win anything. We as bike riders must deal with the problems we have. And as I understand it, it is the way the costs are allocated.
Small, well thought out and researched steps will win the battle and in time win the war. If I thought for a minute the cost we are being asked to pay were the actual cost we as riders are responsible for I would say “ shut up and pay up”, but they are not.


And by answering this I have done what I asked others not to do :bash: I rest my case..........
Steve, as you know I'm an avid proponent for thinking outside the square and as such... when I read some of the posts in this and other ACC threads I'm beginning to think that maybe..... just maybe the Red Coats have a point. Instead of concentrating all our efforts on just One Main Issue.... perhaps we should use lots of different unrelated side issues which would allow more R/Cs to express their hopes and dreams of the next Labour Government....... :Oops: sorry, :Offtopic:
I think their idea of lighting lots of different fires all over the place will indeed confuse the enemy...... namely that bastard Nick Smith and that poxy National Government has merit.........NOT!!!

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
Can you not see that what your doing is dividing this whole issue with the real potential to destroy this most worthwhile campaign.... please think about it. In fact if you cant contribute anything positive... just stay away... simple. Rant over:wait:

[Stan]

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
Can you not see that what your doing is dividing this whole issue with the real potential to destroy this most worthwhile campaign.... please think about it. In fact if you cant contribute anything positive... just stay away... simple. Rant over

I think you're taking this a bit personally. I'm not trying to confuse the issue but if you think the only problem here is your increased ACC levy, you're kidding yourself.

Also, if (as Les suggested) you decide that Nick Smith is a 'good bastard' because he gets the new ACC levy down from $750 to saaaay, $500 then you're seriously deluded.

The ONLY reason the levy is going up is because Nick Smith wants it to.

As for the redcoat comment, I didn't vote for Labour at the last election so don't be tarring me with that brush.

[Ixion]

Of course the issue is political.

But our IMMEDIATE problem is levies.

Focus on the BALL folks. Damn the levies.

BTW nobody should assume that Nov 17th is the end of the campaiggn. Or that we will necessarily stop at stopping the levy increase.They'll just come back next year for another go

[StoneY]

I see Nov 17th simply as the opening volley in a long fight

Its simply a show of force so the powers that be get a feel for how many voter age Kiwi's theyre pissing off

I like that that Herald story at the very least ended with the fact that not ALL our injuries are our fault...its a start compared to the other 'conservative' media to date

[wingrider]

My 2c worth.

In the Dom-Post Monday 2/11/2009, in the Business section, there is an article entitled "Face It, ACC has always been a Mistake" written by Roger Kerr, Executive Director NZ Business Roundtable.

The whole tone (in my opinion) of his article is to convince people that ACC should be scrapped and we go back to the old days of "Right to Sue".

People would be compelled to have Private medical insurance and a bloody fat wallet to pay their lawyers. You would also have to have a bloody good bank balance to finance yourself whist on the mend awaiting your turn in court to recover costs.

The whole concept of ACC was a No Fault No Blame whereby those injured regardless of fault or circumstance, had access to medical facilities and compensation for loss of income whilst recovering.

As a person who was affected by the OLD SYSTEM, I fully remember the financial hardship this put on my parents and the long wait until I was awarded compensation. I dont want that happening for my kids.

Since its inception, ACC has cost the Insurance Industry loss of income.

The National party has always been influenced by Business Roundtable who want a Government that will implement it's recommendations so as to bolster the personal profits of its members and shareholders. They are not worried about the likes of their customers so long as they continue to pay their premiums. And we would be compelled because they would bring in the likes of compulsory insurance to ensure we do.

ACC is not without its faults, but it is fair. and would have been even better had all of its conceptions been implemented.

Whats not fair is when one contributing factor is expected to fund all those groups who are labeled as NON-Contributors and to also amend the errors that the appointed staff have made when they were allowed to make unsound business decisions in respect of investing taxpayers money in risky investments. Again they expect us ( the workers) to bail out them ( the bosses) for their incompetence, and make out it was our fault all along.

If we revert back to the OLD WAY, how much of a tax-cut can we expect to get as a method to pay for personal medical insurance and as an incentive to save should the need arise for us to finance ourselves whilst in recovery?
NOT BLOODY LIKELY.

If proposed taxcuts were used to help fund injuries to those NON-Contibuting groups, I feel would go a long way. Thats not to say that there are groups who should never pay their way. A basic commonsense approach needs to put in place to collect a revenue from these persons.

I have no problems with contributing by way of my taxes to ensure that my children have access to compensation should they be injured. I know that in turn their time will come when they will contribute to their own children.

We are KIWI's. able to think clearly and rationally in most circumstances. Dont allow the idiots to turn us into another pawn of Uncle Sam's idioligy.

In the best KIWI tradition and in respect of the proposed increase lets paraphrase one of uncle Sams sayings


IN RESPECT OF MOTORCYCLE LEVY INCREASES

THE BUCK STOPS HERE!

[davereid]

More Bullshit

hell, there is bullshit coming at us from all corners now !

[Winston001]

My 2c worth.

In the Dom-Post Monday 2/11/2009, in the Business section, there is an article entitled "Face It, ACC has always been a Mistake" written by Roger Kerr, Executive Director NZ Business Roundtable.

The whole tone (in my opinion) of his article is to convince people that ACC should be scrapped and we go back to the old days of "Right to Sue".

People would be compelled to have Private medical insurance and a bloody fat wallet to pay their lawyers. You would also have to have a bloody good bank balance to finance yourself whist on the mend awaiting your turn in court to recover costs.


While I agree with your general views its worth explaining that accident insurance covers the cost of lawyers. Essentially these cases become arguments between insurance companies.

However I do think ACC is a fine scheme and can be fixed. I do not want to see the return of the right to sue.

[NighthawkNZ]

However I do think ACC is a fine scheme and can be fixed. I do not want to see the return of the right to sue.

True... but ACC is not insurance and never should be classed as that, it never was set up to be accident insurance...

The day the seperated the accounts was the day ACC scheme fell apart.... the biger the pool of money means the more cross subsidising and possibly lower levy's are required

seperated (virtual) accounts as we are means smaller pools of money and higher levy's ACC was never intended to work this way and needs to go back to its true orgins of the scheme

[Brian d marge]

My 2c worth.

In the Dom-Post Monday 2/11/2009, in the Business section, there is an article entitled "Face It, ACC has always been a Mistake" written by Roger Kerr, Executive Director NZ Business Roundtable.


THE BUCK STOPS HERE!


Mr Kerr, Gibbsy and the others were the original business round table idiots who advised Labour to introduce those cuts back in the day and National and later ACT took to heart ,,,,,,,:Oops:

Roger Douglas was another

These people are Idealites with their own interest at heart ..

not yours

Stephen

[Voltaire]

I finally got my arse into gear and put my submissions in.

One for every one of my three bikes registered as its the bikes that count not the rider.

I also found a nice A4 size calculator to send to Mr Smith accompanied by Mr Reids summary of ACC figures ( ta).

I have another one to send to Mr Judge so he does not have to rely on his fingers and toes to come up with numbers.

Booked up accomodation in Welly and the Toaster is ready to roll.

[StoneY]

Booked up accomodation in Welly and the Toaster is ready to roll.

My favourite song

I will never diss a Jaffa again ....(until at least the 27th)

You guys travelling rock

[Voltaire]

My favourite song

I will never diss a Jaffa again ....(until at least the 27th)

You guys travelling rock

.....all thats assuming you can get a Latte in Courtney Place????:innocent: