The motorcycle industry

[Kiwi Graham]

So we are riding on parliament, we have signed petitions, visited our MP's offices, written to our MP's, submitted our objections to ACC, held rallies, gained support from the labour party, have other protest rides planned, have created flags, banners, Hi-Viz vests and posters protesting our plight and been very visible in our objections but what is missing.................

Anything visible from the motorcycle industry!!!!!!!
Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Honda, Triumph, Harley Davidson, Hyosung, BMW, KTM etc where are you?
Harley........you dont have a bike under 600cc, this is going to knock heaps of the value of your whole range if this goes through!!
All the rest.........be seen to be doing something, this is going to have a direct effect on each and every one of you.

[McJim]

Harley........you dont have a bike under 600cc, this is going to knock heaps of the value of your whole range if this goes through!!
All the rest.........be seen to be doing something, this is going to have a direct effect on each and every one of you.

Gah! Harley riders only register their bikes for 3 months of the year anyway - they're all Doctors, Lawyers and Accountants. Harley Ridden Davidsons :Pokey: :rofl:

[BIG DOUG]

Hmm I commute on my harley everday,do you ride your duke everyday

[StoneY]

Done my part here in Welly Graham

All the bike shops have been supplied with posters, fliers, TSS ()a Yamaha franchise) came to the BIKEOI planning meeting, and sent all our information to Yamaha do be distributed NZ wide

Did same for Suzuki and Honda, Kawasaki....should spread ok

There is a Lawyer who is a customer of one of the Wellington Bike shops who has submitted to ACC on our behalf, and is maybe going to open a class action if this proposal goes through

[Kiwi Graham]

Gah! Harley riders only register their bikes for 3 months of the year anyway - they're all Doctors, Lawyers and Accountants. Harley Ridden Davidsons :Pokey: :rofl:

Regardless of who they are or how much they ride, they aint going to be too impressed with the reduction in value of their large capacity bikes.

Manufacturers such as Harley Davidson (and the others) should be supporting their customers and attempting to protect their buisness.

[Big Dave]

The industry association has professional lobbyists and are working their own agenda.

They are doing all they can behind the scenes too.

Press release:
http://kiwiridermagazine.blogspot.com/2009/10/motor-indistry-asso-acc-unfairly-blames.html

[martybabe]

Yes indeed, the customers are out there doing everything they can think of to fight this evil because most of us can see the forthcoming decline of motorcycling in this country, yet the industry still sleeps.

Right here right now is the beginning of the end for motorcycling, if these appalling 'fines' get the go ahead,there will be more and more legislation to force us all off the roads, yet the industry still sleeps.

To steal/ plagiarise/ bastardise a famous saying...

All that is required for ACC and National to succeed is for good men and the motorcycle world to do NOTHING !

Step up to the plate bike shops and manufacturers or all that will be left of your business will be a few shiny bikes displayed as curiosities on a museum floor.

You should be leading this struggle from the front with sponsorship, organisation, advertising, back up. As the Aussies would say..WHERE THE BLOODY HELL ARE YOU!:gob:

[Big Dave]

You should be leading this struggle from the front with sponsorship, organisation, advertising, back up.

Unfortunately most of the industry is doing what it can to survive a Winter of global recession.

They understand the ramifications as well as we do and are throwing the back-room punches.

[DMNTD]

......be seen to be doing something, this is going to have a direct effect on each and every one of you.

I can assure you that there's a lot more being done than you are aware but behind the scenes.

[martybabe]

They understand the ramifications as well as we do and are throwing the back-room punches.

Well I hope your right BD but a bunch of generals discussing intricacies and ramifications behind a clump of trees miles form the battle field does not help the troops on the front line. We need help here, some show of actual support for the people that keep them in business is warranted and justified.

There's a thread elsewhere that discusses full or half page advertising in the national press for the bikeoi but I think it was agreed that the cost was prohibitive.

Honestly would it kill a tree to have 'Come join us save the future of motorcycling at the national protest ride in Welly' Emblazoned across a page in the Press, with a little "sponsored by Harley Davidson for and on behalf of NZ motorcyclists" tagged on the bottom?

$30-60K? a bloody drop in the ocean to the likes of them, it's equivalent to them giving away about ten of there Tshirts innit, a pittance to help us help them stay in business!

[Kiwi Graham]

I can assure you that there's a lot more being done than you are aware but behind the scenes.



Yes Chris I'm sure (hoped) your right but it would be good to see their support along side ours. There has been nothing in the media about the plight of the motorcycle industry just the motorcyclist.

[Big Dave]

Unfortunately most of the industry is doing what it can to survive a Winter of global recession.

[StoneY]

Good point Martybabe

I think I know someone who MAY be able to get that organised, will hit him up Monday

Get all the importers and manufacturer shops to pay for one full page ad in each major paper calling riders to arms kinda thing....
only 16 days left better get moving I guess

[martybabe]

Unfortunately most of the industry is doing what it can to survive a Winter of global recession.

Well it will have a four season, year round, bloody recession in this country if it doesn't grow a spine soon.

[Ixion]

BRONZ held a meeting last Thursday, specifically to try to get industry input. We invited all the Auckland dealers/industry people we could. Not one turned up.

I think we're on our own.

[martybabe]

BRONZ held a meeting last Thursday, specifically to try to get industry input. We invited all the Auckland dealers/industry people we could. Not one turned up.

I think we're on our own.


:clap: QED.. Apathetic lot eh, oh well, looks like it's us that will have to try and save their livelihoods for them , that'll be nice of us.:shutup:

[JohnR]

I agree with what you are saying (I started the "Herald AD thread" and also a "Where are the Industry thread).

But we should remember that we have a common goal, as motorcycle riders/enthusiasts and suppliers, and that is to fight this atrocity.:2guns:

Bickering and blame does not convey an aire of unity among us and is really counterproductive, I feel.:calm:

Big Dave (and others) obviously have contacts in the supply group and maybe we should trust that the "Industry" are doing something.

I am sure no one needs telling that if "the powers that be" desire some sort of usuary/levy/tax on motorcycles then they will find a way to do it (a "risk tax" on new motorcycles perhaps?).:buggerd:

It would be nice, as has been said, to have some public recognition of their support though.:hug:

[Hiflyer]

Now I live in civilisation. .



Howick too rural for ya? haha :blink:

[Big Dave]

They have their own professional gigs going on, represented by I think two different associations.

Committees. lawyers and that shizzle. MIA is an unfortunate acronym.

They have also made a press release.

That's the cupboard, 'ubbard.

Apart from that they are citizens being potentially discriminated against like the rest of us.

[DMNTD]

:clap: QED.. Apathetic lot eh, oh well, looks like it's us that will have to try and save their livelihoods for them , that'll be nice of us.:shutup:

Apathetic? To believe that there isn't more than one angle being approached is slightly well...never mind.

[NONONO]

Have just read on another thread that a certain Christchurch Harley dealer stopped the handing out of flyers supporting the Bikeoi campaign at a bike show. How does this represent the 'industry" working away in our interest?
Nice big embedded ACC logo on the dealers site....(Oops, its a submissions link, but still eh?)
Now if I was mercenary (read stupid) enough, and I was looking for a second hand Harley, I may wait a year and pick up a nice bargain when the arse falls out of the market.
I would like to ask the dealers, who do you think will be buying your trade in 650cc up stock if this crap goes through?
What kind of trade in deals will you be able to give with the knowledge that you wont be able to re sell?
Do you think that the above will have any effect on your ability to shift new Harleys, Triumphs, BMW's and big Japenese machines?
Do the views of your customer base have any meaning for you?
Cmon AMPS, Cyclespot, Holeshot, KTL, Experence, and those good bastards at Cycletreads..get behind the campaign and save your own arses at the same time.

[Elysium]

The fact we never see tv ads nor large newpaper ads tells me the the motorcycle industry here doesn't have that much money to throw around.

[Hitcher]

Anything visible from the motorcycle industry!

TSS Motorcycles in Lower Hutt will be closed from 10:00am to 2:30pm for the protest ride on 17 November. All TSS employees will be riding in the protest.

[NONONO]

TSS Motorcycles in Lower Hutt will be closed from 10:00am to 2:30pm for the protest ride on 17 November. All TSS employees will be riding in the protest.


So who needs big money to support the campaign?
I suspect TSS can ill afford the shut down time but seems they have some soul...
TSS, good bastards in my opinion.
Forgot to mention a few dealers in the Auckland area who could be SEEN to be doing more (something)..Red Baron, front and center guys! Lots of big Jap cruisers standing in the show room, how long do you fancy keeping them?
Mt Eden Motorcycles....same with a continental flavor. Fancy a croissant with that Guzzi sir?
Cmon guys, would not take a lot.
How about..."This biker is supported by his LOCAL motorcycle dealer" T shirt or Hi Vis vest for the Bikeoi?
Maybe.(Insert dealer name here) supports the Bikeoi?
How much would it cost to support your customer base?

[NONONO]

The fact we never see tv ads nor large newpaper ads tells me the the motorcycle industry here doesn't have that much money to throw around.

The fact that we ONLY see these ads in motorcycle mags means that they know their market...
I suggest that we let them know that their market knows them.

[NONONO]

Hey, just had a PM from someone?????
Stated 'You seriously don't know how much work is being done behind the scenes"
Abso fucking lutely mate, I have no idea, why don't you tell us?
I,m all ears, in fact I'm audiologicaly gagging for it!
What? This is some state secret?
Let us know, you have my support. What can I do to help?
For fucks sake!

[scumdog]

Gah! Harley riders only register their bikes for 3 months of the year anyway - they're all Doctors, Lawyers and Accountants. Harley Ridden Davidsons :Pokey: :rofl:

Sez the man who won't ride to Kopara cos he doesn't want to put too many miles on his Doo-kahtee.:blah:<_<

[The Stranger]

Apathetic? To believe that there isn't more than one angle being approached

Well sure, but would it hurt them to communicate?
Communication is free right here on KB and unless the importers and dealers have been living in a cave they surely must know of KB and BRONZ.

[NONONO]

So we now have a link to Bluewing Honda. Nz importers Honda..
And what are they doing? Making a submission, just like the average bike riding Joe...Good enough or couldn't give a shit?
You decide when you make your next purchase.
But at least they have something on thier site.
Anyone hear anything from Suzuki, Kawasaki, Triumph, Harley etc etc?

[Elysium]

Anyone hear anything from Suzuki, Kawasaki, Triumph, Harley etc etc?

Just so like Honda, reliable. Don't know about the others, I mean Harely have enough problems on their hands like finacial problems in America and flogging off Buell to worry about our small nation.

[NONONO]

Just so like Honda, reliable. Don't know about the others, I mean Harely have enough problems on their hands like finacial problems in America and flogging off Buell to worry about our small nation.

Can't agree with that, sorry.
I was at the Harley rally in Wellington earlier this year. Huge turn out.
Harley have a decent presence in NZ, it's a not insignificant market compared to other Oceania/Asiatic volumes, with a flow on to close market influence.
Harley could front up via AMPS and Wellington and Hamilton (not sure about volume sales in the mainland).
As for Buell, well....you jump into bed with the boss, guess what, you get fucked.

[McJim]

Sez the man who won't ride to Kopara cos he doesn't want to put too many miles on his Doo-kahtee.:blah:<_<
Why thank 'ee kindly sir. You were indeed the trout I was a-fishin' for and you took your merry time. Some other Harley rider took needless offence in the meantime.

What is happening just now in the New Zealand market won't even be a blip on the radar of the big Jap 4, HD or the Italians. Hyosung might say something though since a sizeable chunk of their product is winding up on our shores.

The importers and distributors should be doing something about it (unless of course they are diversifying into scrap-booking or somat else with a future.) But their response is probaby "What can we buy with a 124.5cc engine in it?"

They will adapt as will the market. Who knows? We might just win.

[NighthawkNZ]

It over all hasn't been thought through that clearly... if they tax us off the road, the government would be loosing out on in just the ACC but in GST... Less bikes on the road same number of accidents and claims

Over all Less bikes, less money spent on bikes, less maintenance, repairs and replacements, less tyres and oil, less bike gear and accessories bein sold. All this means less GST for the government.

The number of business that would start to struggle, who already are due to the recession. and the layoffs some of the bike shops will do starting withe sales and then mechanics, who now go on the dole...

ACC will still have the same number of dirt bike accidents and claims same number of farm bike quad bike claims...

[Mystic13]

So we are riding on parliament, we have signed petitions, visited our MP's offices, written to our MP's, submitted our objections to ACC, held rallies, gained support from the labour party, have other protest rides planned, have created flags, banners, Hi-Viz vests and posters protesting our plight and been very visible in our objections but what is missing.................

Anything visible from the motorcycle industry!!!!!!!
Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Honda, Triumph, Harley Davidson, Hyosung, BMW, KTM etc where are you?
Harley........you dont have a bike under 600cc, this is going to knock heaps of the value of your whole range if this goes through!!
All the rest.........be seen to be doing something, this is going to have a direct effect on each and every one of you.

lol... were you looking for them to wear Hi-Viz vests, stand outside their premises with placards, posting on forums complaining to riders about how tough it'll be.

There is no doubt they'll be unhappy and pushing hard to be heard in their way.

[Mystic13]

When all of this hit the fan, the first few stories to hit the press were all from bike shops from memory.

Personally I kind of think they have bike shops because they love bikes as well. On that basis they're kindred so my thoughts are rather than taking time and energy to take raise questions about them we should instead focus on the real problem.

Some half baked bureaucrat who is clearly anti bikes but even worse now that he's been shown to have made mistakes rather than man up has chosen the "I'll defend the numbers with my last breath routine"... This sort of bureaucrat needs to be taken out the back and given a good beating. (Onle because firing isn't an option).

[NighthawkNZ]

Some half baked bureaucrat who is clearly anti bikes but even worse now that he's been shown to have made mistakes rather than man up has chosen the "I'll defend the numbers with my last breath routine"... This sort of bureaucrat needs to be taken out the back and given a good beating. (Onle because firing isn't an option).

And the media follow these numbers and stat and keep quoting them and don't listen or look at them themself of say but wait something doesn't add up...

we need the media to start to question it

[Kiwi Graham]

lol... were you looking for them to wear Hi-Viz vests, stand outside their premises with placards, posting on forums complaining to riders about how tough it'll be.

There is no doubt they'll be unhappy and pushing hard to be heard in their way.

Any Viz anything would be good!

All we have seen or heard in the media has been motorcyclists objecting, motorcycle clubs objecting, motorcycle organisations objecting. What hasn't been seen objecting are Motorcycle manufacturers, suppliers and dealers.

I'm not bagging them, far from it. I am genuinely concerned that if we dont have as larger profile of objections as possible this is going to go through.
I understand that 'behind the scenes' they are doing something and really appreciate the efforts they are going to but how do you think it looks to the biking population and the general public that the motorcycle industry is keeping such a low profile publicly?

Of course money is tight, but it will become alot bloody tighter for them if this levy goes ahead! Money is tight for everyone, its not stopping hopefully thousands of people taking time of work to ride on parliament in two weeks.

What can they do?....... put in collectively for large adverts in the popular press, request interviews with the media, tv, radio.
It just feels like its the 'motorcyclist' doing all the objecting at the moment.

[phred]

Unfortunately most of the industry is doing what it can to survive a Winter of global recession.

The recession will get worse for them if ACC and Nashnul get their way That should be motivation forn them.

[martybabe]

I'm not bagging them, far from it. I am genuinely concerned that if we dont have as larger profile of objections as possible this is going to go through.
I understand that 'behind the scenes' they are doing something and really appreciate the efforts they are going to but how do you think it looks to the biking population and the general public that the motorcycle industry is keeping such a low profile publicly?

.

Absolutely seconded, no-one here is bagging the industry or dealers, make no mistake we know who the common enemy is here but I certainly don't think it's out of order to say look guys, this is what we're doing to try and save motorcycling in this country and to politely ask are you on board, are you being pro active and if so what are you doing. Give us a sign that we're not alone here please.

[DMNTD]

Give us a sign that we're not alone here please.


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/795/20061209010927youarenot.jpg

[k2w3]

Oh Christ, next someone will post a Michael Jackson video link.

[NighthawkNZ]

Oh Christ, next someone will post a Michael Jackson video link.


Hes not dead you know I saw him yesterday at KFC

[Big Dave]

From the press release:

“We will be making strong representations on behalf of motorcyclists and moped riders with an emphasis on taking positive measures to reduce moped and motorcycle accidents rather than just unfairly penalising New Zealanders who choose to use a fuel efficient form of transport which improves commuter efficiency and reduces pressure on the need for more urban vehicle parking spaces.”

This is more effective use of limited funds than giving signs.

They may well engage the media later in the fight.

[martybabe]

[CENTER]


:clap::grouphug: Coool.

[The Stranger]

This is more effective use of limited funds than giving signs.



The signs need not be expensive Dave.
Gestures (signs) made now are likely to be remembered later, that's the way it works. That's one reason you have bought many a machine form one dealer and I another. They build loyalty and support.

Would not a co-ordinated approach be preferable? Arguments consistent, information shared, resources pooled?

[Ixion]

That's what is worrying me.

We have no idea what the position of the industry is on the actual levies (unless the MIAA statement can be considered to speak for the industry as a whole . I don't know if it can or not).

The "We will be making strong representations on behalf of motorcyclists and moped riders with an emphasis on taking positive measures to reduce moped and motorcycle accidents" could well mean

"We won't object to the levies, we will just argue that the government encourage "positive measures to reduce accidents" (whatever positive measures etc means) in the vague hope that fewer accidents some time in a nebulous future will turn into the levies becoming less extortionate in an equally nebulous future.

Does the industry oppose motorcycle ACC levies being set at the proposed levels?

I haven't seen anywhere a clear statement on that .

[Big Dave]

Would not a co-ordinated approach be preferable? Arguments consistent, information shared, resources pooled?

As far as I know the MIA represents the importers and the MTA represents the dealers.

I can probably address the MIA meeting. I don't see much point. They know what we know (the whole thing blows) and are doing what they can in the backroom to secure their businesses professionally.

[Big Dave]

>>Does the industry oppose motorcycle ACC levies being set at the proposed levels?

I haven't seen anywhere a clear statement on that .<<

Duly forwarded.

[Usarka]

I can well understand why members of the motorcycle industry don't communicate on here.

At times it can be like throwing one aussie passport into a boat full of indonesians.

[Big Dave]

Hmmmm. The footer on the MTA web?

http://www.mta.org.nz

I'm chasing comment by email now. Will advise.

[Big Dave]

Does the industry oppose motorcycle ACC levies being set at the proposed levels?

I haven't seen anywhere a clear statement on that .

From the MIA:

'We are definitely against the proposed ACC levy increases and I am currently preparing our submission.'

They will forward me a copy when complete.

[lakedaemonian]

I can well understand why members of the motorcycle industry don't communicate on here.

At times it can be like throwing one aussie passport into a boat full of indonesians.

Nice one!

From a single motorcycle dealer's perspective, while I really do see value in the KiwiBiker community in acting like a rather mongrel-ish Target/Fair Go for the motorcycle community, the atmosphere/culture here is often a rather steep uphill battle for dealers.

Obviously, some dealers like the good folks at Mt Eden appear to have successfully managed to navigate their way through Kiwibiker from my more usual lurking perspective....but they appear to be the exception rather than the rule.

I'm no expert on the culture here by any means and I don't think it would be reasonable to ask Kiwibiker to somehow change their culture to make it more dealer friendly......but would a "de-militarized zone" for dealers here have any value? An often shoot first, ask questions later environment is not conducive to participation in this dialogue.

In the past year we've managed to get the Christchurch motorcycles dealers just on Manchester Street working quite closely together at the local level for rider safety training and our Biketoberfest event where typically at the national level motorcycle dealers survive on a daily dose of cannibalistic and ruthlessly competitive infighting.

It's not to say cooperation doesn't exist within or between motorcycle shops or brands...there are a lot of strong relationships out there....but mostly one to one in my opinion. A problem is that often times competition WITHIN brands can often far exceed competition BETWEEN brands. Basically Joe Bloggs Brand ABC Motorcycles often has a more ruthless competitor in Crazy Pete's Brand ABC Motorcycles than the expected Kiwi Brand XYZ Motorcycles.

So, half joking, getting a bunch of NZ motorcycle dealers to agree that the sky is blue is an uphill and not always successful battle.

It took us the better part of a year to put on a single substantial event, and a handful of tiny ones. Making the change this year from dictatorship to a far more democratic committee has it's advantages(and was a large part of the success), but a disadvantage is the need to achieve majority consensus at minimum, but preferably unanimity...and this can take time....lots of time.

Building these bridges also took us a long time...to do so at a regional or national level would be quite time consuming and cumbersome if it were done from scratch beyond the existing, and in my opinion sometimes limited, trade organizations.

My post may come across as negative or pessimistic...I can assure you I'm not......I am an optomist at heart.....I just want to provide a glimpse of how I perceive the NZ motorcycle industry at times.

I kind of think the motorcycle industry and the motorcycle community in New Zealand is filled with a lot of generals and not enough soldiers.

Let me explain:

As a licensed firearms owner in New Zealand, and previously the United States, I was shocked to see the inability of the NZ sport shooting community to effectively counter recent changes to firearms policy and fail to counter the media hammering in the wake of a small number of recent firearms related incidents. With several entities offering to lead the lobbying battle even as a dedicated sport shooter I found the effort to appear divided and confusing.....there was no united voice that I heard....and the amateurish and easily manipulated spokespeople probably would have done better just keeping their mouths shut in the national media(in at least one case I saw, again...all in my opinion).

In the United States the National Rifle Association would have used it's incredibly powerful lobbying mechanism to leverage it's considerable political power and would probably have successfully countered it. One Unified Voice.....lots of people hate the NRA.....even as a strong advocate I find them a bit...much, but they are effective via means that does not include civil disobeience that can blow up in faces.....like the recent Greenpeace Palm kernal debacle(my opinion).

Taking aside the differences in culture, lobbying practices, etc......it's troubling to see that the NZ sport shooting community that far exceeds the NZ motorcycle community in terms of respective license numbers, has been impotent(in my opinion).....I see troubling parallels in our community:

Lots of folks who PASSIONATELY want to help

Lots of little leaders, some doing an excellent job, others well meaning....but to be honest some may not be putting our collective best foot forward

No United Voice...

Do we need to have a NZ Motorcycle version of something like the US National Rifle Association?

Just my opinion and perspective.......Just trying to share......industry opinion has been asked for, so I'm trying to share my personal perspective.

Thanks for the opportunity to share.

[k2w3]

They'll take my ACC levy OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HAND.

Does that have any parallels, laked?

[The Stranger]

Nice one!

From a single motorcycle dealer's perspective, while I really do see value in the KiwiBiker community in acting like a rather mongrel-ish Target/Fair Go for the motorcycle community, the atmosphere/culture here is often a rather steep uphill battle for dealers.

Obviously, some dealers like the good folks at Mt Eden appear to have successfully managed to navigate their way through Kiwibiker from my more usual lurking perspective....but they appear to be the exception rather than the rule.

I'm no expert on the culture here by any means and I don't think it would be reasonable to ask Kiwibiker to somehow change their culture to make it more dealer friendly......but would a "de-militarized zone" for dealers here have any value? An often shoot first, ask questions later environment is not conducive to participation in this dialogue.



You are frequently at pains to make excuses about the atmosphere or culture around here.

Reality check we are your customers (well not me specifically) so how's about you get to understand the culture, what we want, our needs and our requirements etc. Who knows, in time it may just help you to stay in business.

You will find this is a pretty open and honest place. I'm in IT, I would give my left nut (figuritively) to have this type of feed back from my clients. People tend to NOT tell you how it is to your face. They will here.

Sure there may be witch hunts from time to time, but in my meagre experience the truth usually wins out in the end. This is an excellent process as it often lays to rest the nagging doubt that gave rise to the witch hunt in the first place instead of letting it fester.

Despite the like of Robert Taylor similarly bemoaning attitudes etc here too he sticks around and seems to do very nicely out of it all. Other dealers and various individual salesmen also do alright out of it.

[k2w3]

Most IT clients tend not to bother mentioning it after the umpteenth introduced endless loop, Stranger.

[lakedaemonian]

They'll take my ACC levy OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HAND.

Does that have any parallels, laked?

haha....

The NRA is a strange one......mostly loved or hated I reckon.....but regardless of where folks stand on the firearms ownership/enthusiast spectrum it's hard to dispute it's consistent effectiveness to look after it's constituent group.

They are an incredibly formidable political force.

[lakedaemonian]

You are frequently at pains to make excuses about the atmosphere or culture around here.

Not excuses.....it's my personal opinion, and speculation as to why there is no a larger industry/dealer presence here.

Reality check we are your customers (well not me specifically) so how's about you get to understand the culture, what we want, our needs and our requirements etc.

Why do you think I'm here? ;) I spend a lot of time with my customers in the real world and we have made a big investment(for us) in focusing on this medium.

Who knows, in time it may just help you to stay in business.

Agreed! While we've been very fortunate we don't want to miss the opportunity to try and stay a step ahead of some of the rest.

You will find this is a pretty open and honest place. I'm in IT, I would give my left nut (figuritively) to have this type of feed back from my clients. People tend to NOT tell you how it is to your face. They will here.

I largely agree...and have been pleasantly surprised at the response received by much of the community in my limited exposure in the open so far. As I've stated before, we've been monitoring the forum for years.....and now hopefully we can engage a bit more......albeit carefully while getting a sense of things.

Sure there may be witch hunts from time to time, but in my meagre experience the truth usually wins out in the end. This is an excellent process as it often lays to rest the nagging doubt that gave rise to the witch hunt in the first place instead of letting it fester.

It has certainly been an exciting two days...a bit like real world drama.....condensed and accelerated

Despite the like of Robert Taylor similarly bemoaning attitudes etc here too he sticks around and seems to do very nicely out of it all. Other dealers and various individual salesmen also do alright out of it.

Yep....there are some dealers and dealer reps that have found an enviable place in the community here.

We'll keep on trying to do the same.