Not allowed to hand out BikersAgainstACCLevies pamphlet at CHCH Biketoberfest

[chch_zed]

A few of us went to the Biketoberfest in Christchurch this morning. While we were there we thought we would hand out pamphlets for the BikersAgainstACCLevies website and to encourage people to put in a submission.

After about half an hour we were approached by David Golightly from Golightly Insurance Services and another bloke from Rolling Thunder. They asked us to stop handing these out. Their reason was this was not the place for promoting the problems with ACC but to celebrate motorcycling. I did not really understand this.

Anyway, I found out later that ACC was sponsoring the event, even though there was no ACC tent or stand to be seen.

So, I guess the organisers are more worried about getting money from ACC than the fact ACC is currently proposing to tax motorcycles off the road.

[Jantar]

...After about half an hour we were approached by David Golightly from Golightly Insurance Services and another bloke from Rolling Thunder. They asked us to stop handing these out. Their reason was this was not the place for promoting the problems with ACC but to celebrate motorcycling. I did not really understand this......
That's a good enough reason for me to NEVER consider Golightly insurance, or to buy anything from Rolling Thunder.

[Kiwi Graham]

After about half an hour we were approached by David Golightly from Golightly Insurance Services and another bloke from Rolling Thunder. They asked us to stop handing these out. Their reason was this was not the place for promoting the problems with ACC but to celebrate motorcycling. I did not really understand this.


What hypocrites, they have missed an opportunity to promote motorcycling and promoting the problems with ACC!!

FFS Golightly Insurance and Rolling Thunder can go fuck themselves......Oh they already have!!

[Conquiztador]

After about half an hour we were approached by David Golightly from Golightly Insurance Services and another bloke from Rolling Thunder. They asked us to stop handing these out. Their reason was this was not the place for promoting the problems with ACC but to celebrate motorcycling. I did not really understand this.



Never dealt with Golightly or Rolling Thunder. And never will!

[Molly]

Don't see that celebrating motorcycling and being pissed off at ACC need be mutually exclusive. Why would the insurance bloke be against the leaflets? None of this makes sense to me.

Anyway, I thought the day was really well done. It <i>was</i> a celebration of motorcycling. Very diverse group of people and bikes. It's possible that something good will come of this ACC bollocks.

[McJim]

Sounds like a good excuse not to support Biktoberfest any more.

[mossy1200]

Why is acc sponsoring a motorcycle event with one hand while trying to fuck us with the other.This needs to go public.

[nrc]

I can't see any mention of ACC on any of the Biketoberfest merchandise...or even on the Biketoberfest website.

Mind you, if there was an ACC logo on the t-shirts, i'm not sure people would have bought them.

Otherwise I thought it was a bloody good event, and it was great to see so many people out motorcycling on the streets of Christchurch.

NRC.

[avgas]

How the fuck does ACC have money for sponsorship???
Bullshit on the highest degree.

[dino3310]

Never dealt with Golightly or Rolling Thunder. And never will!

second that, what a bunch off tossers they are.

hand them out brother stick it to da man

[Hawk]

there was one unnamed club tent handing them out when I was there
and were doing so untill around 12.00 when I left

[NONONO]

Rolling Thunder, nice flash website, all singing all dancing graphics.
Nice big ACC logo embedded as well.
Nice to know who your friends are eh?
Buying a Harley? Need a service? Going to Rolling Thunder? Yeah Right!

[mossy1200]

When you click the acc logo it goes to submission against increase info.
Are we 100% sure they are pro acc?
THIS IS THE CLICK LINK...
ACC has announced porposals for increases to levies as part of its annual levy setting process. This will result in Harley owners having to pay more than $700 per year to register their motorcycles.

ACC is encouraging New Zealanders to have their say

Submissions must include your name, address and phone number.

You can send your submissions to Levy Consultation, ACC, Po box 242, Wellington 6140. Or you can fax to 04 9184395. Or you can email them on consultation@acc.co.nz

Deadline for submissions is 5pm, 10 November 2009. ACC Levy Increases

[JimO]

How the fuck does ACC have money for sponsorship???
Bullshit on the highest degree.

acc sponsers the masters games as well. I know Dave Golightly he is a good bloke and would have had a reason, nothing stopping you from standing outside and handing them out

[knuckles24]

Rolling thunder were a bunch of assholes because one of there clowns came to me at the start of the protest trying to stand over me to make sure we would not make any fuss at the biketoberfest, so that makes alot of sense, just shows that rolling thunder are there for themselves and not for the biker, as long as they are making the dollar they don't give a shit :angry2:

[CookMySock]

Unless you are on private property that is closed to the public, you can actually exercise your freedom as a citizen, and with the law, do as you choose.

Take care that you keep your voice down and do everything that is the opposite of 'disorderly behaviour' and simply go about your business. If someone wants to argue with you about what you should or should not be doing, politely decline to discuss it with them.

Steve

[Brian d marge]

Never dealt with Golightly or Rolling Thunder. And never will!

Done

Should be a sticky ,,and advertised

email bomb to rolling thunder

if that is what happened

Stephen

[scumdog]

That's a good enough reason for me to NEVER consider Golightly insurance, or to buy anything from Rolling Thunder.

X2 :shit::angry:

[Molly]

Before they're roundly condemned it might be worth getting the reason for their not wanting the leaflets handed out on the premises. I don't know the owner particularly well but as well as I can judge he's a decent bloke who's straight-forward to deal with. As such, I'm sure he'd give you a straight answer if you asked him.

[lakedaemonian]

A few of us went to the Biketoberfest in Christchurch this morning. While we were there we thought we would hand out pamphlets for the BikersAgainstACCLevies website and to encourage people to put in a submission.

After about half an hour we were approached by David Golightly from Golightly Insurance Services and another bloke from Rolling Thunder. They asked us to stop handing these out. Their reason was this was not the place for promoting the problems with ACC but to celebrate motorcycling. I did not really understand this.

Anyway, I found out later that ACC was sponsoring the event, even though there was no ACC tent or stand to be seen.

So, I guess the organisers are more worried about getting money from ACC than the fact ACC is currently proposing to tax motorcycles off the road.

G'day,

I'm Chris Elles, the owner of Rolling Thunder Motor Company and an organizer of Biketoberfest here in Christchurch. I'm the "another bloke from Rolling Thunder".

I'm more than happy to front up on this non-issue with my real name as well as face the potential personal and professional consequences if people decide to choose half-cocked and misguided passion over the calm, cool, and collected judgement shared by the large number of industry professionals and motorcycle club representatives that organized Biketoberfest this year and acted on their collective behalf in this specific case.

It's probably worth giving a little bit of background on our event before responding with a far more accurate and far less Jerry Bruckheimer-esque conspiracy melodrama than what Mr chch-zed has poorly attempted to portray.

When I started this Biketoberfest event in my shop in 2005(then called Eric Wood Motorcycles and which I have owned since 2001) it was a corny little event of a few hundred motorcyclists eating sausages having a giggle at the great bunch of girls brave enough to throw on bikinis and wash customer motorbikes next to the Manchester Street footpath on a fresh October day.

Maybe it was the arrogance of thinking we could put on a pint-sized Kiwi version of a Daytona Bike Week, Sturgis, London Brighton Cruize; maybe it was a desire to see every flavour of motorcycle and motorcyclist in one spot without having to leave work; or maybe it was just suffering a brain fart from the nasty concussion I received when riding a bike and hit from behind by a speeding van back in 2003 that made me think it would be pretty cool to develop a corny little(and at first little known) event into something motorcyclists would enjoy as well as provide a great opportunity for the other 99% of Kiwis who don't ride to see us and get to know us.

2009 was the first year we really tried to open up the event. We found in recent years that while we could easily draw a lot of people(1500-1700 last year), no matter how hard we tried to welcome every motorcyclist, we just couldn't extend much beyond the Harley-Davidson community we serve.

Dave Golightly, from Golightly Insurance, is a guy our dealership has partnered with for over a decade in providing motorcycle insurance to our customers and was the first person I approached to partner in our event when it was little more than an old BBQ and a couple freezing bikini girls stopping traffic on Manchester Street.

While Dave and I are now insurance competitors we will always be friends and will continue to organize Biketoberfest together as long as it exists.

Dave and I spoke at length over the years about the ideas I had for trying to open up the event to try and get as much cool shit on two wheels involved as possible. We have a broad selection of motorcycle brands on Manchester Street, but getting a whole bunch of often competing motorcycle dealers to actually work together without secretly plotting to murder or destroy each other is probably just a fraction harder than trying to jump the Tasman in a Nitro fueled Postie Bike.

It was Dave Golightly who was able to build the bridges between the Manchester Street dealerships that led to a meeting, and more meetings, and more meetings, and...I think you get the point.....but we eventually trusted each other enough to proceed down the track without killing each other.....Dave played a BIG role in making this happen.

A couple months back we were able to put the final and most important piece of the puzzle together when we invited every motorcycle club or organization we could reach in Christchurch(specifically including Kiwibiker member representation) to the Vespa Bar to share our idea.....which was to invite them all to join us in taking an ownership stake in this annual event.

We managed to get substantial buy-in from the motorcycling community and simply wouldn't have been able to pull off the event without their ideas, hard work, leadership, and common sense.

It was at a Biketoberfest meeting in the pub behind the LoneStar on Manchester Street last week where the many dealer and club event organizers collectively decided how we would all respond if we were faced with an issue regarding the ACC levies(more on that later).

While the 2009 Biketoberfest event was far from perfect, it was considerably bigger; it had FAR more to offer both motorcyclists and the non-riding public than the last 4 years combined; and most importantly, especially in light of recent events, provided a very substantial and very positive image of motorcyclists to the large number of non-riders who attended the event to help win the hearts and minds of the 99% of Kiwis who don't actually ride motorcycles.

Sorry for the long-winded diatribe.......I've written half a novel without even responding yet.......but I felt it was important to put some perspective on my response.

My next post(s) will include all kinds of gory details including:

ACC and it's role in Biketoberfest

What REALLY transpired between chch_zed and Dave Golightly as well as what transpired between chch_zed and myself. All of which was witnessed by a respected motorcyclist from a respected local club.

Stay Tuned!

Cheers,

Chris Elles

[Mully]

Thanks for fronting up, Chris.

Look forward to reading the sequel.

[CookMySock]

That was way too much background, and not anywhere near enough fronting up.

Also there was a massive resounding thud as your newbie persuasion techniques fell over.

Unless you really ARE interested in the some professional consequences, I strongly suggest you delete your post and get it redone by a professional communication organisation.

Steve

[Mully]

My next post(s) will include all kinds of gory details including:

ACC and it's role in Biketoberfest

What REALLY transpired between chch_zed and Dave Golightly as well as what transpired between chch_zed and myself. All of which was witnessed by a respected motorcyclist from a respected local club.

Stay Tuned!



That was way too much background, and not anywhere near enough fronting up.


Give him a chance to front up before you damn him, DB.

I agree that he didn't say much but, some background story for context doesn't hurt.

[Laxi]

Give him a chance to front up before you damn him, DB.

I agree that he didn't say much but, some background story for context doesn't hurt.

agreed... but it better be good:bash:

[CookMySock]

Give him a chance to front up before you damn him, DB.

I agree that he didn't say much but, some background story for context doesn't hurt.Heres what he is trying to do. The plan starts out with distracting the reader with lots of detail, then he proceeds with confusing the reader by combining multiple unrelated issues, and then moves on to garnering support from lots of other agencies, THEN he waits until someone like yourself posts in the thread, and then an argument ensues between two factions of members, one who responds to his persuasion techniques (laughter dies down) and those who see through it, and riiiiight at the end he hints that that is not what reeeeeely happened anyway. Next he will move onto ridiculing members (like me) on the basis that half the forum disagrees with me..

Do you get the idea yet? So don't be a sheep. ;)

Steve

[200BUSA]

Yeah he should front up now or shut up.

[Kiwi Graham]

good on ya lakedaemonian for coming on and attempting to explain what we are being asked to belive is you discouraging motorcyclists from protesting the actions of ACC and the National Party.
I'm happy to be convinced this wasnt the case.

[Mully]

Do you get the idea yet? So don't be a sheep. ;)

Wow. Paranoid much?

I'm not being sucked into anything. I like to listen to both sides of any disagreement. We have heard from the OP (which on first reading is pretty damning of the two organisations/people involved) and I'd like to hear back from Chris what his version of events is.

Typically, there are three versions of the story; one from each side and the truth, which usually lies somewhere in the middle.

Chris has chosen to make himself known on this thread and, last I checked, was writing another reply to it, hopefully with the "fronting up" that has been demanded.

EDIT: OK, he's offline now. I'm officially giving him 24 hours to answer the allegations and then I'll believe the OP completely.

This place has a nasty habit of tearing into small businesses without hearing both sides of the story. I'm happy to not use either organisation mentioned if his fronting up is not good enough.

The issue here, as I see it, is the OP was stopped from handing out flyers. If Chris doesn't explain that issue, I'll happily join you in asking for more information.

[Molly]

Bit shit that the bloke's rounding-off a successful day that must've taken a lot of planning (and God knows, f'k all interesting ever happens in Christchurch) by fending-off an uninformed witch hunt. Hope he decides to say: <i>"F'k it. It'll keep. I'm going for a beer"</i>.

[325rocket]

Heres what he is trying to do. The plan starts out with distracting the reader with lots of detail, then he proceeds with confusing the reader by combining multiple unrelated issues,

some of us are not so easily confused. I'm happy to hear the guy out before passing judgment. I will however speculate. If ACC only jumped on a week ago, my bet is they (ACC) are trying to get back on the good side of bikers by aligning themselves to this event.

[Ixion]

G'day,

<snip very long and totally irrelevant spiel>

Chris Elles

What on earth has ANY of that got to do with the matter at issue?


But you get a bonus point and a slightly more receptive hearing for the classical allusion in you handle. Far too few classicists round here nowadays.

This is SPAAAAAAAAAARTA

[lakedaemonian]

A few of us went to the Biketoberfest in Christchurch this morning. While we were there we thought we would hand out pamphlets for the BikersAgainstACCLevies website and to encourage people to put in a submission.

After about half an hour we were approached by David Golightly from Golightly Insurance Services and another bloke from Rolling Thunder. They asked us to stop handing these out. Their reason was this was not the place for promoting the problems with ACC but to celebrate motorcycling. I did not really understand this.

Anyway, I found out later that ACC was sponsoring the event, even though there was no ACC tent or stand to be seen.

So, I guess the organisers are more worried about getting money from ACC than the fact ACC is currently proposing to tax motorcycles off the road.

Hi chchc_zed,

You may remember me.....I was the guy you spoke with for a bit after Dave asked you to stop handing out your pamphlets.

My team and I keep an eye on Kiwibiker as we have for years. It's a great resource for us in terms of community sentiment, market research, and a constant reminder to us to "up our game" to avoid getting "KiwiBiker'd", for lack of a better term for it, if we have somehow failed and let a customer down.

The Kiwibiker community can be brutal towards dealers and where there have been CLEAR inaccuracies in regards to my business in the past I have been strongly discouraged by my team from posting a correction for fear of being torn apart anyway.

This is different.

You've thrown a bloody big, and rather inaccurate, hand grenade behind a cloak of anonymity that has the potential to negatively impact on a very good man's livelihood.

As a participant in and witness to events your post inaccurately portrays I'm not going to allow this to go unanswered.

In our conversation we covered a LOT more than what you describe.

If you were confused at the time as your post states, why did you not ask for clarification at the time instead of disparaging a good man and his business on the internet hours later in such a biased and inaccurate manner?

Why didn't you consider saying something along the lines of "can I speak to one of the Biketoberfest organizers and ask about handing out some pamphlets"?

Why did you not take up Dave Golightly on his offer to hand out your leaflets at the road closure entrance/exit of the Biketoberfest event and leave people alone when actually enjoying the event and not pestered with "ACC levies" every 5 seconds?

Why did you not mention in your post the fact that we clearly communicated to you that all of the organizers representing the local motorcycle industry and motorcycle club community unanimously agreed to keep the event positive?

Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you the Biketoberfest organizers united opinion that the best response to the ACC levy issue is for us to talk one on one with other motorcyclists to make individual and well worded submissions?

Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you how important the Biketoberfest organizers felt it was to win the hearts and minds of the many non-riding public in attendance by showing them we aren't a bunch of angry, rude, and militant dirtbags.......but their friends and neighbours?

Half the reason why I'm so fcuking pissed off right now is that a good man is being disparaged inappropriately.

Ask anyone who knows me....I don't talk to or treat customers like this.

The other 50% is the bullshit assumption that somehow Dave, myself, or any of the many other industry or enthusiast organizers somehow don't care.

When I found out about the levy increase I, like many, flipped the fuck out.

The only thing I can think of that makes me more furious is unsubstantiated allegations like yours that we somehow don't care about an issue that impacts not just our passion, but potentially our livelihood as well.

We have much at stake.

Our collective choice was, and is, to engage motorcyclists and encourage them to make an appropriate submission.

I'm more than happy to front up in the real world on this one and would be happy to provide details of the only other witness to events, provided that person's privacy is maintained on this forum unless he chooses otherwise.

Chris Elles

[Ixion]

Sigh. One sees now why Lacedemonia (note spelling) no longer appears i n world atlases.

Still, men are we and must grieve when even the shadow of that which once was great passes from this world.

[200BUSA]

You say you are concerned about ACC increases but this is the first time you have made a comment about it, why not come on here earlier and let fellow bikers know what the industry is trying to do.
Anyway thanks for fronting up with your side. cheers.

[CookMySock]

What on earth has ANY of that got to do with the matter at issue?


But you get a bonus point and a slightly more receptive hearing for the classical allusion in you handle.Watch out, he nearly got you didn't he? ;)

Cmon people, this is baaaaaasic spin doctoring 101. Think about it. Go back and read his explanation(sic) carefully. hint: the writers' main point is always made in his final paragraph. So what was it? Go read it again for yourself, and that will sum it up perfectly. :yawn:

Next step for him is to weasel out of giving any sort of further explanation, usually on the basis that they choose to take umbrage at something, probably that they have been 'insulted' or somesuch. Always, it will be someone elses' fault but theirs, and they will be the injured party. Note the role reversal!


Steve

[NONONO]

So..
Are you telling us that you did stop this guy handing out the leaflets or not?
Simple question.
Seems to me like your saying your somehow nebulous "collective decision" was not too collective. Or maybe you could tell us who was part of the collective?
Maybe the OC has a gripe?
Just the facts baby, just the facts.

[CookMySock]

Haha, I was right.

Note the role reversals;

he is now more pissed off at you than you at him

it is not you who is the injured party it is him

you have no right to feel angry but he does

only "appropriate" submissions may be made - he decides

and right at the end of his post, he is more than happy to take this out of this forum and sort it out provided it goes into secrecy???

Wake up and smell the shit, people. Geez.

Steve

[avgas]

Why is ACC sponsoring ANYTHING???!!!!! I don't get the whole "good for the community" bullshit either. Corporate sponsors are just that, corporate. ACC is not a corporate.
When I hear stuff like this, makes me want to make them a private company immediately, not tomorrow, not next year......NOW. As a stake holder, customer and investor. I find that that their funds are being mismanaged.
Imagine the prison service sponsored a horticulture day?
National/Labour sponsored a rock concert?

Also Chris.....sorry man, I know its hard to get past the defensive pose. But why in particular do you think the handouts should not have been present?
I can relate to the aspect that you did not want to "blast" the public with more paper - but that does not mean that you could not have put it on a table someone for people to collect.
It does sound suspiciously like you were looking after you "benefactors".
How does ACC fit with your event?

-Stewart Farr

[Molly]

Wake up and smell the shit, people. Geez. Steve

FFS Steve. You're putting two and two together and getting about fifty. I don't see what you think he'd have to gain by 'siding' (for want of a better way of putting it) with ACC? As it happens I had a short conversation with Chris this weekend which touched on proposed ACC increases. He clearly shared customers' concerns. But then, why wouldn't he?

[CookMySock]

FFS Steve. You're putting two and two together and getting about fifty. I don't see what you think he'd have to gain by 'siding' (for want of a better way of putting it) with ACC? As it happens I had a short conversation with Chris this weekend which touched on proposed ACC increases. He clearly shared customers' concerns. But then, why wouldn't he?I'm not referring to siding with anyone. I'm just pointing out the blatant persuasion techniques, and how successful they are on you.

It's a powerful thing to understand how people can manipulate your thinking. Make your own decisions on the basis of logic, not someone elses' persuasion skills.

Be careful of what you believe.

Steve

[Brian d marge]

lakedaemonian

Does have a good point of trying to keep the positive feeling and the Kb can rip into small businesses

But ACC is such a important issue , not just for people who ride motorcycles but for Joe plumber as well

That by not assisting someone trying to make others aware of the ACC changes it effectively saying that he is supporting the hikes,

To use an analogy, maybe a less laconic style of communication should have been opened ( sounds like it may have been but was lost somewhere in translation )

But seriously in business in only takes One mis comunication and with the power of the internet to produced a negative cash flow

Someone dropped the ball

Stephen

[Mully]

Why did you not take up Dave Golightly on his offer to hand out your leaflets at the road closure entrance/exit of the Biketoberfest event and leave people alone when actually enjoying the event and not pestered with "ACC levies" every 5 seconds?

Why did you not mention in your post the fact that we clearly communicated to you that all of the organizers representing the local motorcycle industry and motorcycle club community unanimously agreed to keep the event positive?

Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you the Biketoberfest organizers united opinion that the best response to the ACC levy issue is for us to talk one on one with other motorcyclists to make individual and well worded submissions?

Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you how important the Biketoberfest organizers felt it was to win the hearts and minds of the many non-riding public in attendance by showing them we aren't a bunch of angry, rude, and militant dirtbags.......but their friends and neighbours?

OK, chch_zed,

Can you please answer the above questions.

Chris, in all honesty, I'm not convinced you have satisfactorialy answered the allegations thrown at you in the first post.

Can you please answer the below:
Presuming ACC "sponsor" your event, can you please advise when they came on board?
Did a representative of ACC ask you (or Dave) to stop the OP from doing what he was doing or was this off your own bat?

[lakedaemonian]

Have a look at the Biketoberfest.co.nz website to get an idea of the list of businesses and clubs involved in the organization of the event.

We collectively decided that while ACC levies would likely be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and last topic of conversation for motorcyclists on the day, and while we strongly encourage motorcyclists to make their individual ACC submissions we created the event to celebrate motorcycling and to promote a positive image for motorcycling amongst the 99% non-riding community.

When I spoke with chch_zed he was just down from Casbolt's, next to the Trials Rider Display in Ross Galt's parking lot filled with lots of non-riding members of the public.

We asked him to stop........

We very carefully shared our concerns about what he was doing and specifically why as the organizers had discussed and agreed when faced with a situation....

We have a witness who can corroborate the story.....

We offered him the opportunity to move as a compromise......

Had he taken us up on the offer he would have been located right in the funnel thru which every motorcyclist had to pass to reach their bike....people who would be worth lobbying on the issue and seperate from the non-riding, and uninvolved "civilians" for lack of a better word.

When we spoke with him he was amongst a large group of non-riding "civilians" by our Trials Display.

So here we are 8 hours later....getting grilled because someone who chose a target poor environment at the time of the conversation, who didn't even have the courtesy to have a conversation with the organizers in regards to his intent, being offered a target rich environment away from the "civilians" that would be a win-win for everyone......instead going home to sulk and post some disparagement and half-truths on the internet.

[cowboyz]

i was waiting with anticipation for a well constructed response answering the questions at hand but disappointed to only get what was got. Actually, hardly disappointed because I kinda expected it really.

Heres some direct questions... Want to throw them past your PR guy and then manufactor some half arsed response, or you could just front up.....?

1. What is ACCs role in bikefest?
2. What potential damage did you forsee by openly disagreeing with ACC at bikefest?
3. What was the reason behind not handing out anti-rise in rego pamplets at bikefest?

[200BUSA]

I dont see the point in stopping him from passing info to the public, if they intend on buying a bike they need to know what they are getting into. Again is just so you make money selling bikes or the interests of fellow motorcyclists at heart?

[Conquiztador]

Chris Elles

Hi Chris

Earlier in the piece I stated that I have never dealt with RT or your insurance mate. Nothing you have written has made me change my mind, in fact sofar you have made me very comfortable re my earlier decision. And why, you might ask, is that?

Here:
- A chap who is concerned re the proposed ACC levy increase did see an opportunity to spread the message at your "function" in his own time. And was told you did not want him there doing it. Does not make any sense to me. I would have thought that you, if you really agree with this stance, would have applauded his efforts. The only reason I could think is that you were concerned that it was taking away the focus from your customers.
- Sofar you have tried to get us to be symphatetic towards your business and all the hard work that has been done to run this event. Free advertising anyone?
- I sense an effort to try to talk your self out of a poorly handled situation. I have a better idea: Why not just admit that you fucked up and apologise? Takes a big man...
- I think you missjudged the size of this. And I think the reason for that is that you have been to busy thinking about the ones with the big wallets. And IF ACC is in bed with you then you really need to state what is going on.

The only thing I recon you can do is prove to us that you are serious about your stance here. Tell us, what are you doing about the issue?

But you can also do an ostrich and hope it all goes away...

[vstrom]

The holy er than thou Acc grizlers on this thread are probobly the sort of tossers that gate crash a party and want to put there own music on ,did not get to bike fest but well done rolling thunder and all the other dealers,clubs etc ,there is a minority on this site that hides behind the vale of animinty and throws a heap of shit, i mean whats danger barstards agender, get over yourself i reckon you must be one of them little hoody wearing pricks slouched in the front seat of a cage

[Hitcher]

At times there's no harm in admitting that one made a bad call and would do something differently if confronted with the same circumstances in the future.

At times there's no harm in apologising, if not for doing something wrong, then for upsetting people unnecessarily.

[cowboyz]

ok.. you posted while I was typing....

I can see your point about not involving the public on issues that are facing bikers today. I can see the reasoning behind not wanting to voice something that might upset some people.

Totally disagree. but can see your view.

On to the ... what was ACC role in bikefest? This is what I am really intereseted in as someone who pays far too much to ACC with no return.. I am very interested what they are spending their (hah ha my) money on.

[sleemanj]

If the dude was handing out on private property, then ok fair enough to ask him to move off the private property if you don't like it.

If he was also told not to do so on public property, that's pretty naff.

[Ixion]

Have a look at the Biketoberfest.co.nz website to get an idea of the list of businesses and clubs involved in the organization of the event.

We collectively decided that while ACC levies would likely be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and last topic of conversation for motorcyclists on the day, b we created the event to celebrate motorcycling and to promote a positive image for motorcycling amongst the 99% non-riding community.

When I spoke with chch_zed he was just down from Casbolt's, next to the Trials Rider Display in Ross Galt's parking lot filled with lots of non-riding members of the public.

We asked him to stop........

We very carefully shared our concerns about what he was doing and specifically why as the organizers had discussed and agreed when faced with a situation....

We have a witness who can corroborate the story.....

We offered him the opportunity to move as a compromise......

Had he taken us up on the offer he would have been located right in the funnel thru which every motorcyclist had to pass to reach their bike....people who would be worth lobbying on the issue and seperate from the non-riding, and uninvolved "civilians" for lack of a better word.

When we spoke with him he was amongst a large group of non-riding "civilians" by our Trials Display.

So here we are 8 hours later....getting grilled because someone who chose a target poor environment at the time of the conversation, who didn't even have the courtesy to have a conversation with the organizers in regards to his intent, being offered a target rich environment away from the "civilians" that would be a win-win for everyone......instead going home to sulk and post some disparagement and half-truths on the internet.

OK

Now I have to talke issue with you. Not about the question of someone handing out leaflets, but about your understanding of what the ACC protest issue is about.

Firstly your comment "and while we strongly encourage motorcyclists to make their individual ACC submissions" sounds very like a cop out to me. You are part of the motorcycle industry. And your only response to a direct attack on motorcycling (and one that could put you out of business!) is to "strongly encourage motorcyclists to make individual submissions" ? You can't be bothered ,as a business , to do any more than that. To pass the buck back to the "individual motorcyclist" ?

If your apathetic attitude reflects that of the motorcycle industry in general (and I'm afraid to say that it seems that it does) then all I can say is that the sooner you go out of business and are replaced by someone with the interests of the motorcycling community at heart, the better. I am quite sure that Len Perry, Bill White, Bill Russell, Percy Coleman would have had a LOT more to say than "encourage individual motorcyclists to make submissions".

And your philosophy that the OP should have only approached motorcyclists and not "bothered" 'civilians' is way way of target.

The 'civilians' are EXCATLY those we want and need to approach. Motorcyclists already know what is going on . (any that don't are living under a rock and won't come out anyway) . They don't need telling. It is the general public that we need to approach and educate . The OP had EXACTLY the right strategy in concentrating on them

You are doing the ACC protest movement no favours with your tactics.

Indeed you are stabbing them in the back, fighting on behalf of ACC instead of the motorcyclists.

[NONONO]

Did I REALLY read the words "Hearts and minds" in that post?
Would the dealers, and importers, (and, as if they gave a toss, the manufacturers, tell us HOW they are supporting their customers in this campaign?
Just for my own peace of mind, just so I know.
Just so I can make an informed choice about which brand, which dealer, I might want to buy my next bike from.
I mean I've already made that choice about which political party will get my next vote, or not. Surely i should have some information about who I will support with my purchasing dollar?
Not that it makes one iota of difference to the bike dealers or manufacturers, but my few thousand dollars means a lot to me.
What are you doing?
Let us know.

[cowboyz]

The holy er than thou Acc grizlers on this thread are probobly the sort of tossers that gate crash a party and want to put there own music on ,did not get to bike fest but well done rolling thunder and all the other dealers,clubs etc ,there is a minority on this site that hides behind the vale of animinty and throws a heap of shit, i mean whats danger barstards agender, get over yourself i reckon you must be one of them little hoody wearing pricks slouched in the front seat of a cage

this vale of animinty argument not only is invalid but really annoying.

Most of the posters, if not all over 2000posts anyhow will be very well known in real life. You come anywhere near the manawatu and ask who cowboyz is and someone will point you this way. The "vale" of animinty is was more transparent than the "vale of PR and whitewash responses"


BTW... Still dont know what the relationship between bikefest and ACC is???????

[riffer]

Oh dear. It appears that the man from Laconia has gone rather laconic on us. :blink:

[NONONO]

OK

Now I have to talke issue with you. Not about the question of someone handing out leaflets, but about your understanding of what the ACC protest issue is about.

Firstly your comment "and while we strongly encourage motorcyclists to make their individual ACC submissions" sounds very like a cop out to me. You are part of the motorcycle industry. And your only response to a direct attack on motorcycling (and one that could put you out of business!) is to "strongly encourage motorcyclists to make individual submissions" ? You can't be bothered ,as a business , to do any more than that. To pass the buck back to the "individual motorcyclist" ?

If your apathetic attitude reflects that of the motorcycle industry in general (and I'm afraid to say that it seems that it does) then all I can say is that the sooner you go out of business and are replaced by someone with the interests of the motorcycling community at heart, the better. I am quite sure that Len Perry, Bill White, Bill Russell, Percy Coleman would have had a LOT more to say than "encourage individual motorcyclists to make submissions".

And your philosophy that the OP should have only approached motorcyclists and not "bothered" 'civilians' is way way of target.

The 'civilians' are EXCATLY those we want and need to approach. Motorcyclists already know what is going on . (any that don't are living under a rock and won't come out anyway) . They don't need telling. It is the general public that we need to approach and educate . The OP had EXACTLY the right strategy in concentrating on them

You are doing the ACC protest movement no favours with your tactics.

Indeed you are stabbing them in the back, fighting on behalf of ACC instead of the motorcyclists.

My god man, you do battle honour!
You may make a suit look like a rubbish bag, but I for one will follow you to the gates of hell! Or at least Wellington.

[kave]

As far as I can tell, chch_zed has accused biketober fest of not supporting motorcyclists in what is probably the biggest issue we have faced in the last decade, and lakedaemonian is essentially saying that this is correct, but that bikers were being screwed democratically by all the stall-holders there. I am really failing to see how that makes it less disappointing.

I cannot see why the stakeholders in the motorcycle industry are bending over so easily. We all know we are about to be raped by the government, but I am going to fight it as best I can.

As far as I am concerned, if I walk into a shop related in any way to the motorcycle industry and they dont have posters/flyers for protests and aren't taking an active role in protesting this levy hike I will never shop there again. Simple really, take our money elsewhere and give it to those who support us. If we all decided to do this then the industry might wake up.

[cowboyz]

If the dude was handing out on private property, then ok fair enough to ask him to move off the private property if you don't like it.

If he was also told not to do so on public property, that's pretty naff.

You have a bike shop (apparently in collabration with ACC) holding an event for bikers and the public. An issue very close to all bikers at the momnet is not being publically supported by the event organisers. Sure, legally, if it was on private land then he has every right to not support the concerns of bikers and ask whatever he would like to happen or not happen.

The real question is....

Does Bike Thunder support the biking community or does it take the path of least resistance? Cant go upsetting the sponsers? Oh,, and what is ACC role in bikefest?


OK
Firstly your comment "and while we strongly encourage motorcyclists to make their individual ACC submissions" sounds very like a cop out to me. You are part of the motorcycle industry. And your only response to a direct attack on motorcycling (and one that could put you out of business!) is to "strongly encourage motorcyclists to make individual submissions" ? You can't be bothered ,as a business , to do any more than that. To pass the buck back to the "individual motorcyclist" ?



couldnt have said it better myself! Totally on the same page as Ixion on this one.

[Hitcher]

vale of animinty

Veil of anonymity. I'm presuming.

[Molly]

This thread is just going to run and run until an argument gets out of hand and it's closed down.

As an aside, I listened to a bloke whinge about some trivial issue with the dealership today whilst helping himself to their hospitality. I swear I wouldn't have the patience ...

[cowboyz]

hey... Id just be happy to find out the relationship between ACC and bikefest?

[Conquiztador]

The holy er than thou Acc grizlers on this thread are probobly the sort of tossers that gate crash a party and want to put there own music on ,did not get to bike fest but well done rolling thunder and all the other dealers,clubs etc ,there is a minority on this site that hides behind the vale of animinty and throws a heap of shit, i mean whats danger barstards agender, get over yourself i reckon you must be one of them little hoody wearing pricks slouched in the front seat of a cage

I see you have 3 bikes over 600cc...

[GOONR]

The Kiwibiker community can be brutal towards dealers and where there have been CLEAR inaccuracies in regards to my business in the past I have been strongly discouraged by my team from posting a correction for fear of being torn apart anyway.

Yes this place can be brutal, normal joe bloggs kinda people will generally speak about their bad experiences rather than their good ones.. marketing 101, make sure they walk away feeling good.




This is different.

You've thrown a bloody big, and rather inaccurate, hand grenade behind a cloak of anonymity that has the potential to negatively impact on a very good man's livelihood.

As a participant in and witness to events your post inaccurately portrays I'm not going to allow this to go unanswered.

In our conversation we covered a LOT more than what you describe.

If you were confused at the time as your post states, why did you not ask for clarification at the time instead of disparaging a good man and his business on the internet hours later in such a biased and inaccurate manner?

Why didn't you consider saying something along the lines of "can I speak to one of the Biketoberfest organizers and ask about handing out some pamphlets"?

Fair call.




Why did you not take up Dave Golightly on his offer to hand out your leaflets at the road closure entrance/exit of the Biketoberfest event and leave people alone when actually enjoying the event and not pestered with "ACC levies" every 5 seconds?.


I doubt that many people would have been put out by being handed a leaflet, shit it happens every day on the high street.




Why did you not mention in your post the fact that we clearly communicated to you that all of the organizers representing the local motorcycle industry and motorcycle club community unanimously agreed to keep the event positive?

I think that handing out leaflets to (mostly bikers) would generally been seen as a positive thing to be doing given the current situation. If there is an issue that people feel passionate about and it affects many people, even indirectly, Tsunami for example, people get out hand out leaflets and spread the word.



Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you the Biketoberfest organizers united opinion that the best response to the ACC levy issue is for us to talk one on one with other motorcyclists to make individual and well worded submissions?

I think that has view has been mentioned many times on this site and is well understood by the majority, indeed many people have made individual submissions but a collective voice is also a loud voice.





Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you how important the Biketoberfest organizers felt it was to win the hearts and minds of the many non-riding public in attendance by showing them we aren't a bunch of angry, rude, and militant dirtbags.......but their friends and neighbours.

If you follow this site as you mentioned above how have you missed the fact that most of the posts have been along this very line, don't upset joe bloggs but get the point across.




Half the reason why I'm so fcuking pissed off right now is that a good man is being disparaged inappropriately.

Ask anyone who knows me....I don't talk to or treat customers like this.

The other 50% is the bullshit assumption that somehow Dave, myself, or any of the many other industry or enthusiast organizers somehow don't care.


I don't know you or Dave or anyone in the industry, I'm just going by what both sides have posted here, to be honest, you haven't done yourself any favours.




When I found out about the levy increase I, like many, flipped the fuck out.


That is the kind of emotion that the general riding population need, it is what has fired up so many. Not just on this site but the riding population as a whole.

[vstrom]

the holy er than thou are also concerned with spelling,

[Eurodave]

So , anyway, has anyone got any pix theyd like to share? I didnt take a camera today :(

[NONONO]

This thread is just going to run and run until an argument gets out of hand and it's closed down.

As an aside, I listened to a bloke whinge about some trivial issue with the dealership today whilst helping himself to their hospitality. I swear I wouldn't have the patience ...

Sorry mate, just will not do.
So some of your mates are getting a hard time, looks from the evidence that they deserve it.
Stop making apologies for them...let them front up and give us the facts. So far it's been rambling diversion and slight of hand. This IS the biggest issue to face the industry and it's customers in NZ for a long long time, we need to know who supports us and who does not.
Shit or get off the pot.

[Hitcher]

the holy er than thou are also concerned with spelling,

I'm pleased that somebody is.

[vstrom]

I see you have 3 bikes over 600cc...
and your point is?

[nrc]

A lot of people are talking about the relationship between ACC and Biketoberfest... this is just a guess here (as I just enjoyed a bloody good day of motorcycling)... but Ride Forever (www.rideforever.co.nz), which is one of the sponsors is "Powered by ACC"... So Ride Forever gets it's funds from ACC (or is ACC in a cool disguise), and in turn supports this bloody good event.

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong... and despite all this thread, I really do appreciate the good work by the organisers, running events like this is nothing short of legendary.

NRC.

[Molly]

So , anyway, has anyone got any pix theyd like to share? I didnt take a camera today :(

Saw the bloke who runs kiwibikers.co.nz taking pics today. No doubt there will be lots on that site soon.

[JohnR]

A lot of people are talking about the relationship between ACC and Biketoberfest... this is just a guess here (as I just enjoyed a bloody good day of motorcycling)... but Ride Forever (www.rideforever.co.nz), which is one of the sponsors is "Powered by ACC"... So Ride Forever gets it's funds from ACC (or is ACC in a cool disguise), and in turn supports this bloody good event.


NRC.

If this is true, why couldn't Mr Rolling Thunder have just told us this?:slap:

[MaxB]

hey... Id just be happy to find out the relationship between ACC and bikefest?

You are on to it mate.

I also want to know what the tie in with ACC is and the timing of it.

[caseye]

Where are you Mr Lake man?
ACC and Biketoberfests relationship details are not necessary, we here simply want to know if there is a relationship that stops you allowing concerned bikers from approaching members of the general public at a bike show.
How hard is that? course now for many here it seems there is some sort of relationship, which may be prejudiced if you were seen as supporting bikers agaisnt ACC.
Did I say "you"? sorry should have said you and all the other bike merchants involved in biketoberfest! Something is beginning to smell very bad here.
Please, do come back and answer the simple question, what is the nature of the relationship between ACC and biketoberfest?

Ixion I too will follow you anywhere including to Welly and back and anywhere damn well else that we/I may be required.

[Conquiztador]

I see you have 3 bikes over 600cc...
and your point is?

2250 points.

[Molly]

Sorry mate, just will not do ... we need to know who supports us and who does not.
Shit or get off the pot.

I took part in yesterday's protest. I've written to the entire Cabinet. And I'm as pissed off with the increases as anybody (three bike family).

I just think badgering the owner of a dealership like this is unnecessary. He can't win. For every response he posts there'll be a dozen people waiting in the wings to take a shot. Chris is a decent bloke who doesn't deserve this shit but that won't bother the legions of barrack-room lawyers from offering their 2c on an incident they didn't witness. What a shit way to round-off a great, free bike event day.

[gammaguy]

so the event was sponsored by ACC(under a disguise or a different name-whatever)?

So the people with vested interests in the bike show(good as it may or may not have been)are scared to upset the "sponsors"because they opened the chequebook and bankrolled the event?

a few points arise from this:

1)ITS OUR MONEY ANYWAY,WE PAY IT WHEN WE WORK,LICENCE A VEHICLE,PLAY SPORT!

2)this was a perfect opportunity to show ACC we cannot be bought and sold.

3)defending them and refusing a leaflet drop merely confirms their attitude-that we are a bunch of idiots who can be shut up easily,and are not to be taken seriously.

4)if the organisers REALLY believe that ACC is wrong,and that the rights of bikers come first,then they should have REFUSED the sponsorhip money.SIMPLE

Lets cut thru all the bullshit,and Mr Rolling Thunder-explain that away if you can.:yes:

[Elysium]

Legal crap aside and after reading all the posts so far, in my opinion these guys in charge of Biketoberfest come across as complete tossers.



...oh yes, praise be to our "Benefactors"

[cowboyz]

I took part in yesterday's protest. I've written to the entire Cabinet. And I'm as pissed off with the increases as anybody (three bike family).

I just think badgering the owner of a dealership like this is unnecessary. He can't win. For every response he posts there'll be a dozen people waiting in the wings to take a shot. Chris is a decent bloke who doesn't deserve this shit but that won't bother the legions of barrack-room lawyers from offering their 2c on an incident they didn't witness. What a shit way to round-off a great, free bike event day.


I dont think there is badgering of any kind. Chris may well be a decent bloke.. He has every right to make decisions he sees fit in anyway he wishes to conduct any event he is organising or any business he is operating.

Would still like to know, from the horses mouth, the relationship between ACC and biketoberfest. Then I can make an informed decision on who I support with my hard earned cash in the future.

[caseye]

I took part in yesterday's protest. I've written to the entire Cabinet. And I'm as pissed off with the increases as anybody (three bike family).

I just think badgering the owner of a dealership like this is unnecessary. He can't win. For every response he posts there'll be a dozen people waiting in the wings to take a shot. Chris is a decent bloke who doesn't deserve this shit but that won't bother the legions of barrack-room lawyers from offering their 2c on an incident they didn't witness. What a shit way to round-off a great, free bike event day.

I fully agree with your sentiment. I'd be very happy to hear that there is either no connection with ACC or that whatever connection there was, was not dependant on the organisers actually denying bikers the ability to peacefully hand out fact sheets to the general public at the biketoberfest.
lakedaemonian, so theres no question of my hiding anywhere I'll be pming my real contact details directly.

[vstrom]

2250 points.

i dont care im rich, yeah right

[lakedaemonian]

Disclosure of ACC involvement in Biketoberfest

We had a lot of businesses, clubs, and organizations involved in Biketoberfest over the past year.

We ran it like we run our dealership, with transparency.

Most of the entities involved offered "sweat equity" for participation.

For example, the band "Fossil" was free...and very good....they received great exposure and I'd be happy to pay for them to play an event for us again.

Another example, the coffee and food vendors were asked to make a charitable contribution to the Salvation Army, our charitable partner for the event.

The ACC contribution included some radio advertising that was rider safety focused as a marketing campaign to complement our far larger Rock FM marketing campaign wholly paid for by the organizers.

ACC involvement in Biketoberfest got underway last fall.

We had, and still have, an alignment of interests......if riders stay upright(regardless of who's at fault in accidents), riders keep happily riding, motorcycle retailers keep retailing, motorcycle distributors keep distributing, motorcycle insurers keep insuring, and ACC keeps ACC'ing.

We approached the relationship in that manner.

We did not approach ACC with the goal of trying to sweet talk them into giving us a big fat check to line our pockets.

You're not going to find a presented cheque from ACC cashed by Biketoberfest organizers.

For the past year, and the first time we had all the Manchester Street dealers working together was with the Rider Safety Training at Ruapuna Race Course that was conceived and managed by Dave Golightly. Dave came up with the idea, provided the framwork, and leveraged the experienced riders in our collective dealerships to provide rider safety training under the watchful eye of Mainland Driving School.

After a couple of these events the opportunity to have ACC partnering with us in some capacity for Biketoberfest grew, probably due to the commitment everyone was tangibly making towards keeping their customers upright.

We just had another 50-ish through on Friday as part of this weekend's activities.

We strongly lobbied ACC to have a physical presence at our event. We told them it's VERY important to engage with the motorcycling community.

Handing out a leaflet, a sticker, or an email doesn't cut it...you need to MEET and ENGAGE face to face. That's what we thought, that's what we think.

Month's later and only a few weeks from our event.....BLAM! right between the eyes.

ACC had no physical presence at our event as they had planned and we had areed. It is our understanding that several ACC staff were allegedly assaulted since the announcement of proposed increases. As a result, ACC staff would not be participating at Biketoberfest or any other motorcycling event.

If the decision had been up to us about ACC participation in person, I'm left wondering how our community would have responded.....Would it have gotten feral and ugly and displayed our community in a negative light for the rest of the public? Would it have been a storm in a teacup? Would it have seen the best in our community rise to the challenge on the day?

In the weeks since the announcement, we've had folks visit us, some quite militantly and disruptively telling us what to do in regards to the ACC levy rise.

We've listened politely to all, and intently to some who do not represent militant outliers in our community...of which there are some who I completely disagree with their choice of opposition.

There is no conspiracy....there is no contractual, moral, or ethical dilemma I as an individual motorcyclist, dealership principal, and Biketoberfest founder & fellow organizer have that prevents me from sharing my opinion on ACC levies.

I(and "we" organizers) think there is a time, place, and means for sharing it.

I'd be happy to share mine here, or in another thread where appropriate.

I"m happy to continue on with this thread, there's clearly a fair bit of interest in it now, but I want to make sure everyone's getting out of it what we all want.

I don't mind being dog-piled and trying to clarify any concerns folks have about our event, the organizers views on the weekend, or even my personal views on this ACC issue.

But there needs to be a bit of a quid pro quo on the inappropriate disparagement.

I have fronted up, and will continue to front up, will chch_zed on his comments and lack of full candor on the conversation that occurred?

Sorry for the delays in posting...it's been a long week and while I am giving this high priority(mere hours after the alleged conversation took place) I do have other responsibilities....I will be here for a bit longer...time to read the 86 posts since my last one.

[lakedaemonian]

A lot of people are talking about the relationship between ACC and Biketoberfest... this is just a guess here (as I just enjoyed a bloody good day of motorcycling)... but Ride Forever (www.rideforever.co.nz), which is one of the sponsors is "Powered by ACC"... So Ride Forever gets it's funds from ACC (or is ACC in a cool disguise), and in turn supports this bloody good event.

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong... and despite all this thread, I really do appreciate the good work by the organisers, running events like this is nothing short of legendary.

NRC.

Yep...rideforever.co.nz is a platform for the ACC to promote rider safety.

Sorry for not putting that in my last post...been a LOOOOOG week putting this event on.

[NONONO]

Did you think I was badgering Molly? Sorry if it came across like that.
Look, your pals seemed to have right royally fucked up. They made a business decision which looks like it back fired, no one elses fault.
Maybe have a word with your buddies, tell them that in the real world the people that buy the bikes, ride the bikes. And the people that ride the bikes buy the bikes. ACC are not, as far as I know, a particularly large purchaser of motorcycles.
As the man said, "just tryin to keep the customer satisfied".

[Laxi]

Disclosure of ACC involvement in Biketoberfest

BLABLABLA
The ACC contribution included some radio advertising that was rider safety focused as a marketing campaign to complement our far larger Rock FM marketing campaign wholly paid for by the organizers.

BLABLABLA.

translation= you took ACC sponsorship for an event aimed at motorcyclists who are being screwed by said sponsor? shows loyalty I guess huh?:blink:

[caseye]

As my dear old mum Used to say, theres always two sides to a story.
Chris, my apoligies for casting aspursitions, around here things usually happen pretty quickly, your non return prompted many to think, as I did that there was more to the story.
I'm glad I waited to see your next post, it spells out exactly where you and the other organisers of the biktoberfest have come from and under the circumstances I'm offering my apologies for being too quck to jump.
I hope that when the time is right you may be able to convey what happened at your biktoberfest and here in these forums to the ACC people you know, so that they may get a very Real(I'm sure it will be) sense of how seriously each and every one of us bikers is pissed off with them collectively.

[kave]

translation= you took ACC sponsorship for an event aimed at motorcyclists who are being screwed by said sponsor? shows loyalty I guess huh?:blink:
Not only screwed us, but now lack the testicular fortitude to front up to the people they are screwing. Bureaucrats are cowards, and the majority of businesses will shaft anyone for a dollar. I have failed to learn anything new from this thread, but it has reinforced previous experiences.

[lakedaemonian]

translation= you took ACC sponsorship for an event aimed at motorcyclists who are being screwed by said sponsor? shows loyalty I guess huh?:blink:

As I stated I'm happy to continue with the dog pile if we are going to get somewhere with it.

It's worth noting that the ACC levy announcement was made a couple weeks ago.

We started down this track many months ago.

Getting our hands dirty over the past year with a good number of rider safety training events at Ruapuna that happens to be using rideforever.co.nz literature is doing more for keeping our fellow riders upright than what most are doing.

Where most have been talking, we have been doing.

Not being arrogant.......as I stated before it was a strong alignment of interests for all parties.

Rider safety training was, and is, the right thing for us to do.

[Laxi]

As I stated I'm happy to continue with the dog pile if we are going to get somewhere with it.

It's worth noting that the ACC levy announcement was made a couple weeks ago.

We started down this track many months ago.

Getting our hands dirty over the past year with a good number of rider safety training events at Ruapuna that happens to be using rideforever.co.nz literature is doing more for keeping our fellow riders upright than what most are doing.

Where most have been talking, we have been doing.

Not being arrogant.......as I stated before it was a strong alignment of interests for all parties.

Rider safety training was, and is, the right thing for us to do.

I completely agree that rider training is the way to go! now convince ACC that. The fact remains this event was aimed at riders! you dont expect nuns to rock up to the exotica expo do you? the interests of the punters should at the very least match those of the sponsor dont you think

[caseye]

As I stated I'm happy to continue with the dog pile if we are going to get somewhere with it.

It's worth noting that the ACC levy announcement was made a couple weeks ago.

We started down this track many months ago.

Getting our hands dirty over the past year with a good number of rider safety training events at Ruapuna that happens to be using rideforever.co.nz literature is doing more for keeping our fellow riders upright than what most are doing.

Where most have been talking, we have been doing.

Not being arrogant.......as I stated before it was a strong alignment of interests for all parties.

Rider safety training was, and is, the right thing for us to do.

I can't fault that, can anyone else?

[Winston001]

Well......I've read through all of the angry posturing above and can scarcely believe motorcyclists are being so petty.

I know nothing about Biketoberquest but imagine it's not organised and paid for by Christchurch City Council. Instead it only occurs because bike shops led by Rolling Thunder put it on. If the organisers decide not to allow pamphleteering they are perfectly entitled to do so.

No big deal and furthermore it seems a spot was offered to distribute from.

[lakedaemonian]

As my dear old mum Used to say, theres always two sides to a story.
Chris, my apoligies for casting aspursitions, around here things usually happen pretty quickly, your non return prompted many to think, as I did that there was more to the story.
I'm glad I waited to see your next post, it spells out exactly where you and the other organisers of the biktoberfest have come from and under the circumstances I'm offering my apologies for being too quck to jump.
I hope that when the time is right you may be able to convey what happened at your biktoberfest and here in these forums to the ACC people you know, so that they may get a very Real(I'm sure it will be) sense of how seriously each and every one of us bikers is pissed off with them collectively.

No worries Caseye!

You have to have thick skin both literally and figuratively in this industry and community.

And on this topic.....both the minor AND big picture bits I can see people getting their backs up until it's resolved.

I plan on sticking with this one as best I can.

I'm thinking of this as an extended conversation rather than just a place to post a vetted press release or three.

While I haven't been an active participant in this forum, I do spend a considerable amount of time reading it weekly.

[caseye]

" Poted by Laxi,I completely agree that rider training is the way to go! now convince ACC that. The fact remains this event was aimed at riders! you dont expect nuns to rock up to the exotica expo do you? the interests of the punters should at the very least match those of the sponsor dont you think"
Reply With Quote
LOL come on Laxi cut the guy some slack, months ago being on side with ACC and making practical in roads into rider safety was a great idea, still is!
I've seen nuns at the Erotica expo!

[kave]

Rider training is excellent. Unfortunately ride forever is an (admittedly relatively benevolent) arm of the guys who are trying to rape motorcyclists. Do you not think it would be prudent to cease any association with them, at least until this current mess is sorted out.

Is their literature absolutely necessary? is it really more helpful than something written by a specialist motorcycle trainer (such as Keith Code). There must be some free alternatives out there in the public domain, people have been trying to stop motorcyclists killing themselves for as long as motorbikes have been around.

I have the rideforever DVDs, have to say that I didn't find them particularly useful. If you honestly believe that the best option available to you is to continue to utilise ACC resources then do so, just expect the same level of loyalty from customers as you are showing to them.

[Laxi]

"
I've seen nuns at the Erotica expo!

if they're inserting vibrating things, they aint real nuns mate :lol:

[NighthawkNZ]

Well......I've read through all of the angry posturing above and can scarcely believe motorcyclists are being so petty.


Dunedin's biketober which was ACC sponsered had noth about bike safety, or bike awareness for cage drivers, it was just a way to sell to bikers... I doubt that there were many non-bikers having a good look about.

However we were handing out pamphlets and talking abut ACC etc, MCR was handing out flyers about it all and what we as public can do...

I guess the point being bikers already know that the stats are a bit iffy and don't add up, average joe public don't they still here bikers only gave 12m, and acc spent 62m... till we get it to the average Jo public that thats not entirely the full story and bikers a gave more than that with fuel and all other levies... and that the 62m is anot just last years claims, but all active previous claims pre 1999 before the change to fully funded.

The irony of ACC funding this event, and we are now only just starting to see the odd bill board and advert...(but stil fair and few between) but I have never seen any bike awareness advert from ACC in 20 odd years till recently... They knew abouit the proposle months ago same time they would have been organising the sponsering of Biketober if not before so the irony of it all...

ACC should be funding rider traing courses like RRRT and Otago's Ride Right Course through out the country... Dunedins one is run by BRONZ and the Otago Motorcycle Club... Though ACC support it, they need to push more and sponser it fund it...

[Laxi]

If you honestly believe that the best option available to you is to continue to utilise ACC resources then do so, just expect the same level of loyalty from customers as you are showing to them.

:clap::clap::clap:

[caseye]

I wondered about that???? Na truely I did!

[lakedaemonian]

Well......I've read through all of the angry posturing above and can scarcely believe motorcyclists are being so petty.

I know nothing about Biketoberquest but imagine it's not organised and paid for by Christchurch City Council. Instead it only occurs because bike shops led by Rolling Thunder put it on. If the organisers decide not to allow pamphleteering they are perfectly entitled to do so.

No big deal and furthermore it seems a spot was offered to distribute from.

Another bit of disclosure...thanks to the Christchurch City Council for their help in allowing us to run the event.

We had some substantial cash costs with the Manchester Street closure with both the Council and the Traffic Management Plan.

Both the Christchurch City Council and our TMP folks either sharpened their pencil or went the extra mile in helping us to plan/execute the event.....great folks to work with.

While everyone is focused on ACC levies(for good reason) and ACC's limited involvement with our event....to be honest our biggest concern was the risk of civil disobedience events that might make things awkward for the NZ Police Motorcycle Unit which has been a great participant in the rider Safety training led by Golightly Insurance over this past year as well as active participants in Biketoberfest......as well as a desire to get the Christchurch City Council even more behind the event for next year.

Getting the street closed took a lot of effort, we want to do everything we can to ensure we can continue to do next year.

We are having a revue of this event in just over a week's time......for those that attended feedback is appreciated...this issue will be included of course......including: what really occurred at the event, this thread, and it's outcome

Assuming it's not 463 pages of dog pile by then ;)

[Laxi]

to be honest our biggest concern was the risk of civil disobedience events that might make things awkward for the NZ Police Motorcycle Unit which has been a great participant in the rider Safety training led by Golightly Insurance over this past year as well as active participants in Biketoberfest

you guys dont have one news as sponsor do ya? :lol:

[NONONO]

Another bit of disclosure...thanks to the Christchurch City Council for their help in allowing us to run the event.

We had some substantial cash costs with the Manchester Street closure with both the Council and the Traffic Management Plan.

Both the Christchurch City Council and our TMP folks either sharpened their pencil or went the extra mile in helping us to plan/execute the event.....great folks to work with.

While everyone is focused on ACC levies(for good reason) and ACC's limited involvement with our event....to be honest our biggest concern was the risk of civil disobedience events that might make things awkward for the NZ Police Motorcycle Unit which has been a great participant in the rider Safety training led by Golightly Insurance over this past year as well as active participants in Biketoberfest......as well as a desire to get the Christchurch City Council even more behind the event for next year.

Getting the street closed took a lot of effort, we want to do everything we can to ensure we can continue to do next year.

We are having a revue of this event in just over a week's time......for those that attended feedback is appreciated...this issue will be included of course......including: what really occurred at the event, this thread, and it's outcome

Assuming it's not 463 pages of dog pile by then ;)
All sounds good...but what we want to know is, did you guys (Rolling Thunder, Golightly Insurance and ACC) stop people handing out the flyers promoting the Bikeoi and opposing the ACC hikes?

[lakedaemonian]

you guts dont have one news as sponsor do ya? :lol:

I did meet the TV One reporter and cameraman on Saturday as well our local MPs.

After I spoke with them I kind of hung back and listened in to the many random motorcyclists from our community asked/answered questions in regards to ACC Levies.

I was quite impressed with how many folks on our community eloquently conveyed themselves....well done.

[Laxi]

All sounds good...but what we want to know is, did you guys (Rolling Thunder, Golightly Insurance and ACC) stop people handing out the flyers promoting the Bikeoi and opposing the ACC hikes?


I did meet the TV One reporter and cameraman on Saturday as well our local MPs.

After I spoke with them I kind of hung back and listened in to the many random motorcyclists from our community asked/answered questions in regards to ACC Levies.

I was quite impressed with how many folks on our community eloquently conveyed themselves....well done.

:blink::blink::blink:

EDIT: motorcyclists aint as dumb as you seem yo think, kissing up wont help avoid the answer

[Conquiztador]

Another bit of disclosure...thanks to the Christchurch City Council for their help.... blabla bla.....
Assuming it's not 463 pages of dog pile by then ;)

Dogpile? You are the one filling this with that crap. You might not have noticed, but this IS about the hike in ACC levies, but you ramble on re Chch city and god knows what.

You still don't get it do you? Riders are peed off re the unreasonable hikes, the lies by the government, what this will mean to them. And you are concerned re closing the street so your fluffy "get all bike shops together" thingy can go on. You are taking no stand in this.

If the ones from KB who are putting heaps of time and effort had been contacted by you (you do state that you read KB often...) and offered to put forward their argument as you do support them, do you think you would now have to defend your self? Do you think, as a business man, that could have been a good idea?

I still recon your best bet is to admit you fucked up, apologise and do something to help the cause. But I have been known to hallucinate...

[kevfromcoro]

I did meet the TV One reporter and cameraman on Saturday as well our local MPs.

After I spoke with them I kind of hung back and listened in to the many random motorcyclists from our community asked/answered questions in regards to ACC Levies.

I was quite impressed with how many folks on our community eloquently conveyed themselves....well done.

And how many people eloquently conveyed themselves

NOT well done..........

[Conquiztador]

I did meet the TV One reporter and cameraman on Saturday as well our local MPs.

After I spoke with them I kind of hung back and listened in to the many random motorcyclists from our community asked/answered questions in regards to ACC Levies.

I was quite impressed with how many folks on our community eloquently conveyed themselves....well done.:blink:

FFS!! You dont know when to stop do you...

[lakedaemonian]

Rider training is excellent. Unfortunately ride forever is an (admittedly relatively benevolent) arm of the guys who are trying to rape motorcyclists. Do you not think it would be prudent to cease any association with them, at least until this current mess is sorted out.

Is their literature absolutely necessary? is it really more helpful than something written by a specialist motorcycle trainer (such as Keith Code). There must be some free alternatives out there in the public domain, people have been trying to stop motorcyclists killing themselves for as long as motorbikes have been around.

I have the rideforever DVDs, have to say that I didn't find them particularly useful. If you honestly believe that the best option available to you is to continue to utilise ACC resources then do so, just expect the same level of loyalty from customers as you are showing to them.

I think we have a pretty well organized, run, and resourced dealership....but we already do a LOT of stuff in house.....and we are often already overloaded.

I don't dispute your opinion or other sources......they sound like they have potential...but when faced with a blizzard of daily/weekly issues......the amount of time that would need to be dedicated to just this one issue of replacing ACC rideforever.co.nz literature would take away time with customers or something else as important.

We all ultimately have limited resources.......customers only have so much money/time to spend, dealers only have so much money/time to look after their customers......free(which we have actually PAID for) resources that help keep upright works for me.....I'd rather explain a stance on using free rider safety resources 100 times than visit one customer in hospital.

Probably a bit melo-dramatic but I guess 6 of one half dozen the other.

[Laxi]

I don't dispute your opinion or other sources......they sound like they have potential...but when faced with a blizzard of daily/weekly issues.
my bike needs a new tyre, rear pads, warrant, rego etc... guess whats the top issue for me at the moment? you need to realise where your money's coming from!

[lakedaemonian]

You say you are concerned about ACC increases but this is the first time you have made a comment about it, why not come on here earlier and let fellow bikers know what the industry is trying to do.
Anyway thanks for fronting up with your side. cheers.

Good question.

I was on an industry related trip when it was announced.

Of the time I had with some more senior folks in the region I expressed my initial serious concerns and asked for assistance if needed.


While I do try and monitor traffic here weekly, it's been a hell of a month schedule wise.

Also, have a look at the historical culture of this forum.

If I was to suddenly rock up and share my opinion without any real overt history on this forum...regardless of my opinion's perceived value or that of my industry peers there's a good chance that due to the skepticism and assumption of guilt by dealers on this forum it's not a very welcoming environment.

Also, this forum doesn't seem to take kindly to tryhards...of which a dealer presenting a popular opinion on this issue may be perceived.

I have lurked in this online community for quite sometime.

I have posted rarely.

While we are both part of the NZ motorcycling community, I am not an active member of this forum........I'm hear to respond to a poster with as few posts as I, quick to accuse and sharing only some of the story.

It would be wrong(or at least I think it would be) for me to suddenly show up here commenting on the ACC Levies squawking and shitting everywhere like a seagull.

I'm still working on my own submission.......I'm not going to send something out half-cocked......I hope you can see my point that while I have strong opinions, and anyone who knows me knows I share them endlessly, it would be inappropriate for me to jump dump on this forum without having built some credibility here first.

In this case it's about resolving what REALLY happened in regards to this thread being initiated, and happily fronting up on whatever else pops up until that happens.

Thanks for your question, I hope I answered it, if not, feel free to PM.

[lakedaemonian]

Watch out, he nearly got you didn't he? ;)

Cmon people, this is baaaaaasic spin doctoring 101. Think about it. Go back and read his explanation(sic) carefully. hint: the writers' main point is always made in his final paragraph. So what was it? Go read it again for yourself, and that will sum it up perfectly. :yawn:

Next step for him is to weasel out of giving any sort of further explanation, usually on the basis that they choose to take umbrage at something, probably that they have been 'insulted' or somesuch. Always, it will be someone elses' fault but theirs, and they will be the injured party. Note the role reversal!


Steve

In response to this I will endeavour to keep on track or revisit what questions are asked.

For me I want to clarify what actually happened...my recollection of events is a good bit different from chchc_zed...it wasn't that exciting.

A poster with as little history on here as I is assumed to be entirely honest and forthcoming. I'm here, and have fronted up, to address those errors and inconsistencies in his story as they relate to what actually transpired.

But out of respect for this community I'm also here in good faith to add what I can.

As the thread twists and turns I hope you understand it will probably need to be brought back on track if sidetracked.

This medium is one that isn't well utilized by motorcycle dealers on this forum or on any other that I know of on a regular basis.

While some folks may think I'm crazy for even being here and taking a potentially perpetual beating.......it's worth whatever cost is incurred to be one of the first of my peer group to face the gauntlet rather than being one of the last.

[lakedaemonian]

Haha, I was right.

Note the role reversals;

he is now more pissed off at you than you at him

it is not you who is the injured party it is him

you have no right to feel angry but he does

only "appropriate" submissions may be made - he decides

and right at the end of his post, he is more than happy to take this out of this forum and sort it out provided it goes into secrecy???

Wake up and smell the shit, people. Geez.

Steve

I guess it's going to take a bit to "find my feet" if I'm going to be accepted into this forum, or if my presence is only temporary to participate briefly in this specific thread....I guess we find out as we go along.

If my language was too salty...well I'm not a robot...motorcycle dealers are motorcyclists too.

Everyone else gets to shoot from the lip......that's why I arrived.....to respond here to something I thought was wrong.

I am no victim.

But I'm also not going to sit by and watch an inaccurate and unopposed accusation become the truth.

[lakedaemonian]

hey... Id just be happy to find out the relationship between ACC and bikefest?

I think we've covered that in my previous posts.....if not, please PM, and I'll elaborate more in open forum, but it's pretty simple...it all came out of rider safety training events from earlier this year...that morphed into a rider safety theme for the event.....we felt it was aligned interests and in the best interest of ALL parties.........there is no conspiracy theory, no matter how juicy a story that might be.

[lakedaemonian]

Yes this place can be brutal, normal joe bloggs kinda people will generally speak about their bad experiences rather than their good ones.. marketing 101, make sure they walk away feeling good.



Fair call.



I doubt that many people would have been put out by being handed a leaflet, shit it happens every day on the high street.



I think that handing out leaflets to (mostly bikers) would generally been seen as a positive thing to be doing given the current situation. If there is an issue that people feel passionate about and it affects many people, even indirectly, Tsunami for example, people get out hand out leaflets and spread the word.



I think that has view has been mentioned many times on this site and is well understood by the majority, indeed many people have made individual submissions but a collective voice is also a loud voice.




If you follow this site as you mentioned above how have you missed the fact that most of the posts have been along this very line, don't upset joe bloggs but get the point across.



I don't know you or Dave or anyone in the industry, I'm just going by what both sides have posted here, to be honest, you haven't done yourself any favours.




That is the kind of emotion that the general riding population need, it is what has fired up so many. Not just on this site but the riding population as a whole.


It's a heated issue, with a lot of tempers flaring.

I'm upset, you're upset, we're all upset.

Some people seem to be getting upset at others for either not BEING upset enough or not APPEARING to be upset enough, for not DOING enough, or not APPEARING to be doing enough.

How is everyone vetting the difference between actual substance on this issue and just noise?

You seem to be supportive of my outburst(I think, or maybe just the emotional reaction)....while others here think it's a fake PR101 misdirection.

Outside of my own personal and repeated reason for being here to set the story straight on the actual conversation that occurred I'm happy to put up more.......as long as it's not the lose/lose it feels like and that some have PM'd suggesting that it's a no-win situation regardless of the actual circumstances of the situation.

Is a presence/communication/opinion from more dealers actually wanted here?

Or is it better as is with the rare dealer here and there, and the rest not caring or not posting for the same genuine fears I have?

[lakedaemonian]

i was waiting with anticipation for a well constructed response answering the questions at hand but disappointed to only get what was got. Actually, hardly disappointed because I kinda expected it really.

Heres some direct questions... Want to throw them past your PR guy and then manufactor some half arsed response, or you could just front up.....?

1. What is ACCs role in bikefest?
2. What potential damage did you forsee by openly disagreeing with ACC at bikefest?
3. What was the reason behind not handing out anti-rise in rego pamplets at bikefest?

Trying to play catch up on some that may have been missed when the posting was fast and furious......I think this one was partially answered but will cover it again:

1.) ACC was "A" sponsor via their rideforever.co.nz rider safety campaign, we considered ANY effort expended to increase rider safety training or awareness a good thing. It largely consisted of a small co-marketing radio campaign funded directly by ACC in the way of prepaid radio spots.

2.) I am entitled to my opinion and have one, our event organizers have their own individual opinions, and we agreed unanimously on how we would conduct the event in light of recent events.....and we'd be happy to invite one or more folks from KB to attend our event debrief next week to go over it in detail as well as et feedback for next year.....who wants to come? We didn't really perform any kind of assessment about opposing ACC. Again we are under NO contractual, legal, moral, ethical obligations to agree with the ACC, support the ACC, or avoid comment on ACC.

Personally, it feels like we(we being motorcyclists) have been thrown under a bus. In turn, some of the "we" seem to be trying to throw others under the bus...be it ACC, pushbikers, farmbikers, skiers, etc. in a effort to hopefully improve our situation or at least have others share in our potential misery....

3.) Could you clarify please? "anti-rise in rego pamplets" IF you mean why didn't we include some form of ACC levy awareness in some form of rally registration packs then the answer is simple:

We didn't have any conventional rally packs........we simply were stretched too thin to put together a rally pack...just like we missed getting a 5th anniversary patch made up.

Nothing is being run past anyone...I'm trying to cover this stuff with as much frankness and candor as possible...hopefully the early AM timestamp would support that as most sane people are sleeping at this time.

Speaking of sleep........that's me......I'll be sure to give this priority in continuing to respond throughout my day, with the chance to dedicate a bit of time tomorrow night if I get buried during the day.

I can only reiterate that what instigated this thread is not entirely accurate...not even close.

It is in my best interest as well as the best interest of everyone who was involved with organizing Biketoberfest to get involved with the ACC Levy issue. It will have a considerable impact on my business if implemented as is.....so it would be ignorant to assume that because we or I aren't seen to be militant advocates for change that we don't care.

Is anyone interested in fronting up and coming along to the Biketoberfest debrief/washup to be held in a bit over a week? We can cover this specific thread topic issue.....

Time for bed, but will check in later in the day...thank you for your time.

[lakedaemonian]

OK, chch_zed,

Can you please answer the above questions.

Chris, in all honesty, I'm not convinced you have satisfactorialy answered the allegations thrown at you in the first post.

Can you please answer the below:
Presuming ACC "sponsor" your event, can you please advise when they came on board?
Did a representative of ACC ask you (or Dave) to stop the OP from doing what he was doing or was this off your own bat?

Sorry for responding to your post so out of order......the volume of stuff on the thread has been hard to manage and respond to easily. It's hard to put together a single response to every query posed all at one time so if it's a question of having to gather the bits and pieces I've posted in response I appologize for the inconvenience. I'm a bit worried, with some good reason, that if I dropped one single press release-like post it would generate resentment so I'm hoping the individual responses will suit better by trying to take a personal approach rather than a clinical corporate one.

I think we had ACC first attend one of our Biketoberfest meetings approx. 6 months ago, give or take a month. It was US who strongly encouraged them to attend our event in person and engage with the motorcycling community. Their involvement was never an effort to generate revenue for the event.
We were and are continuing to do what we can to keep our community upright and ACCs interests were and are aligned with that same goal, so accepting their support was a no brainer.

No one from ACC asked me or any other organizer to stamp out or stop anything in regards to Biketoberfest.

There were and are no strings attached.....there's no conspiracy.

I also hope chch_zed fronts up so we can cover the actual full extent of the conversation held.

I'm taking full responsibility for my actions here and yesterday, I'm hoping chch_zed chooses to do the same.

The community demanded I front up immediately and I have and will continue to do so as best I can.

So far I think you are the only one trying to hold chch_zed to the same standard.

Regardless of outcome....some equity would be nice.

I could see how a well known and well respected forum member could carry immediate weight within the community when posting such a thread, but is it in the best interest of the community(both Kiwibiker and our physical world community) for a Spanish Inquisition, assumption of guilt atmosphere to be the default approach when one infrequent poster accuses another?

To be quite frank, and to inject a bit of needed levity into the situation I couldn't help but think of Monty Python's "witch" sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

I think it's safe to say we all likely want to achieve the same goal, this thread seems to be fighting over who is doing what and how they are doing it.

Passion is a good thing......but I know that sometimes it clouds judgement and prevents the most effective message from being conveyed.

Just my 0.02c, and I hope chch_zed chooses to share more of his as well.

[Jantar]

A few of us went to the Biketoberfest in Christchurch this morning. While we were there we thought we would hand out pamphlets for the BikersAgainstACCLevies website and to encourage people to put in a submission.

After about half an hour we were approached by David Golightly from Golightly Insurance Services and another bloke from Rolling Thunder. They asked us to stop handing these out. Their reason was this was not the place for promoting the problems with ACC but to celebrate motorcycling. I did not really understand this.

Anyway, I found out later that ACC was sponsoring the event, even though there was no ACC tent or stand to be seen.

So, I guess the organisers are more worried about getting money from ACC than the fact ACC is currently proposing to tax motorcycles off the road.


Hi chchc_zed,

You may remember me.....I was the guy you spoke with for a bit after Dave asked you to stop handing out your pamphlets.

........


As a participant in and witness to events your post inaccurately portrays I'm not going to allow this to go unanswered.

In our conversation we covered a LOT more than what you describe.

If you were confused at the time as your post states, why did you not ask for clarification at the time instead of disparaging a good man and his business on the internet hours later in such a biased and inaccurate manner?

Why didn't you consider saying something along the lines of "can I speak to one of the Biketoberfest organizers and ask about handing out some pamphlets"?

Why did you not take up Dave Golightly on his offer to hand out your leaflets at the road closure entrance/exit of the Biketoberfest event and leave people alone when actually enjoying the event and not pestered with "ACC levies" every 5 seconds?

Why did you not mention in your post the fact that we clearly communicated to you that all of the organizers representing the local motorcycle industry and motorcycle club community unanimously agreed to keep the event positive?

Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you the Biketoberfest organizers united opinion that the best response to the ACC levy issue is for us to talk one on one with other motorcyclists to make individual and well worded submissions?

Why did you not mention in your post how I clearly shared with you how important the Biketoberfest organizers felt it was to win the hearts and minds of the many non-riding public in attendance by showing them we aren't a bunch of angry, rude, and militant dirtbags.......but their friends and neighbours?

Half the reason why I'm so fcuking pissed off right now is that a good man is being disparaged inappropriately.

Ask anyone who knows me....I don't talk to or treat customers like this.

The other 50% is the bullshit assumption that somehow Dave, myself, or any of the many other industry or enthusiast organizers somehow don't care.

When I found out about the levy increase I, like many, flipped the fuck out.

The only thing I can think of that makes me more furious is unsubstantiated allegations like yours that we somehow don't care about an issue that impacts not just our passion, but potentially our livelihood as well.

We have much at stake.

Our collective choice was, and is, to engage motorcyclists and encourage them to make an appropriate submission.

I'm more than happy to front up in the real world on this one and would be happy to provide details of the only other witness to events, provided that person's privacy is maintained on this forum unless he chooses otherwise.

Chris Elles

Chris, Thank you for fronting up and adding a bit more to this saga. You have, I believe, clarified your position, but you haven't contradicted the events that took place.

Maybe you had good intentions,, but the effect of preventing the pamphlets being handed out at the best time and location is to give the impression that despite anything you may have said at the time, you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists.

I stand by my origional response.

[PirateJafa]

translation= you took ACC sponsorship for an event aimed at motorcyclists who are being screwed by said sponsor? shows loyalty I guess huh?:blink:

You dumb fuck, as he said, ACC got involved with them last fall. We've only been "being screwed" by ACC for a couple of weeks.

Good too see the KB kangaroo court is hard at work.

[Trumpess]

Where is ChCh_Zed?
He started this ... i think he needs to finish it, before this witch-hunt gets way out of hand.

[PirateJafa]

Personally, it feels like we(we being motorcyclists) have been thrown under a bus. In turn, some of the "we" seem to be trying to throw others under the bus...be it ACC, pushbikers, farmbikers, skiers, etc. in a effort to hopefully improve our situation or at least have others share in our potential misery....

Bang on, and rep to you for putting that probably quite unpopular yet completely correct opinion out there.

Unfortunately, you'll be finding that KBers are quite quick to disagree with anyone who doesn't kiss their arse.

You wanted to run a positive event, and good on you. You're actually putting your money where your mouth is, unlike the keyboard warriors on here. Keep up the good work. :niceone:

[CookMySock]

I'm upset, you're upset, we're all upset.No one was upset until you started ranting about how upset you were. Re-read.


If my language was too salty...well I'm not a robot...motorcycle dealers are motorcyclists too. I am no victim.No, it was too bland, by a wide margin. All full of egg white and missing all the bacon.


I have fronted up, and will continue to front up, will chch_zed on his comments and lack of full candor on the conversation that occurred?Uh, no you haven't. You have talked a lot of hoo har and insisted chch_zed has done the same, yet it is your explanation that means little or nothing.


I just think badgering the owner of a dealership like this is unnecessary. He can't win. For every response he posts there'll be a dozen people waiting in the wings to take a shot. Chris is a decent bloke who doesn't deserve this shit but that won't bother the legions of barrack-room lawyers from offering their 2c on an incident they didn't witness. What a shit way to round-off a great, free bike event day.Wasn't HE badgering people at that event? I think so. For his own purposes? I think so. Re-read.

He "fronts up"(sic) of his own accord here, as he is called to account for his actions, and then proceeds to offer half-baked bullshit responses full of newbie persuasion techniques. :bye:


This thread is just going to run and run until an argument gets out of hand and it's closed down. Yes, that is the final step for him. I urge the moderators to resist the urge to PD.



If the dude was handing out on private property, then ok fair enough to ask him to move off the private property if you don't like it. This is not so. If the property is privately owned, but is opened to the public with the use of some advertising or signage for the purposes of some public gathering, then it becomes a public place for that time. Any member of the public may conduct themselves within the law on that property during the time of the event. The organisers must terminate the event and publicly ask everyone to leave if they want their private property back.


We asked him to stop........Sorry, but you are not within your rights to compel a citizen acting within the law to do anything. You would do well to remember this, save comebacks of this nature.


To be quite frank, and to inject a bit of needed levity into the situation I couldn't help but think of Monty Python's "witch" sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

I think it's safe to say we all likely want to achieve the same goal, this thread seems to be fighting over who is doing what and how they are doing it.

Passion is a good thing......but I know that sometimes it clouds judgement and prevents the most effective message from being conveyed.

Just my 0.02c, and I hope chch_zed chooses to share more of his as well.I'm sorry, but I do not take you as "frank" whatsoever. I take you as sly and evading the issue. You have done quite a clever <a href="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snow job">snow job</a> with at least thirty percent of readers, who do not have the skills to separate your basic persuasion tactics from your truth.

I think you will discover the other sixty percent who can think for themselves will rather vote with their feet/wallets. :sick:

I have three suggestions for you. Firstly admit you should not have approached the gentleman to begin with and apologise for this, secondly shut the hell up before you dig a hole bigger than you already have, and thirdly, brush up on your basic persuasion skills before you release them on the public.

And, in closing, heres a youtube video you you. :bye:


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T-3Iq3XQkAw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T-3Iq3XQkAw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Steve

[PirateJafa]

OH DEAR GOD ON A STICK!

LOOK GUYZ, KIWIBICKERERS HAZ BEEN SUPPORTING ACC. QUICK, BURN THEM ALLZ, THEY ARE EVIDENTLY SUPPORTING OUR REGISTRATION INCREASEZ!!

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=87086

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=86313

[Genestho]

Just my 0.02c, and I hope chch_zed chooses to share more of his as well.

Hiya. Have just read this thread, albeit very quickly.

I just want to say to you, sorry that you're getting flamed.

I invited ACC/Rideforever to our BADD Endurance Race - part of the Taupo Road Race Spectacular coming in December.

The idea was to educate riders on gear and give away some free gear from a dealership.

We are not receiving sponsorship or payment from ACC, just giving them a presense (sp?).

We were not forewarned these levy increases were coming from ACC. A fellow board member and I attend meetings with an ACC rep.
Quite annoyed with this - Our board of trustees will have to rethink ACC's presence (sp?).

Luckily in our case we have the luxury of time to assess the situation - I'm assuming you didn't? Good on you for fronting up :)
To be honest, my initial thoughts are that RideForever should still have a presence but accept that riders will want to have their say.

[cowboyz]

Chris, Thank you for fronting up and adding a bit more to this saga. You have, I believe, clarified your position, but you haven't contradicted the events that took place.

Maybe you had good intentions,, but the effect of preventing the pamphlets being handed out at the best time and location is to give the impression that despite anything you may have said at the time, you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists.

I stand by my origional response.


I think both side have clearly stated there position.

on one side you have a bike shop holding an event. With all busniess ventures sometimes it is compulsory to sleep with the devil for the greater benefit. ACC supported bikefest and bikefest supported ACC. Bike fest made a decision to not have any constrovesy (hitcher will be along soon) at their rally and sweeping issues that effect bikers under the carpet as to not been seen by potiential buyers. That is their absoulte right but dont come making up stories about supporting bikers and how many years you have been in the industry for and how much you do for Mr biker and how pissed off you are at ACC levies. Make a stand FFS. Just say outright... Its not in your best interest to piss ACC sponsership off. Its what NZ'ders do best. Just dont rock the boat, god forbid someone will get splashed with a bit of saltwater.


You dumb fuck, as he said, ACC got involved with them last fall. We've only been "being screwed" by ACC for a couple of weeks.

Good too see the KB kangaroo court is hard at work.

Dont see this as kangaroo court at all. Both parties agree on what happened. Even reasons behind what happened seem to be agreed by all.
Its just if a "nice guy" can still be a "nice guy" by collabrating with the devil and leaving those who support him out in the cold.

[cowboyz]

Hiya. Have just read this thread, albeit very quickly.

I just want to say to you, sorry that you're getting flamed.

I invited ACC/Rideforever to our BADD Endurance Race - part of the Taupo Road Race Spectacular coming in December.

The idea was to educate riders on gear and give away some free gear from a dealership.

We are not receiving sponsorship or payment from ACC, just giving them a presense (sp?).

We were not forewarned these levy increases were coming from ACC. A fellow board member and I attend meetings with an ACC rep.
Quite annoyed with this - Our board of trustees will have to rethink ACC's presence (sp?).

Luckily in our case we have the luxury of time to assess the situation - I'm assuming you didn't? Good on you for fronting up :)
To be honest, my initial thoughts are that RideForever should still have a presence but accept that riders will want to have their say.

I dont think that ACC presence is a bad thing.

But sweeping issues under the carpet and pretending its all good is a bad thing.

Reading slightly between the lines of rolling thunders posts the underlying tone (feel free to correct) is that bikers do not have any sense of common courtesty and are a bunch of misfits running round looking for pitchforks and flame torches.

[kerryhare]

And here was me thinking we had freedom of speech in this country. I personally don't see the problem with handing out the leaflets at this event. I think it was the right place, right time etc. It is where they should be handed out. What else was been handed out?

[jim.cox]

do not have any sense of common courtesty and are a bunch of misfits running round looking for pitchforks and flame torches.

Well, Guy Fawkes' is just days away...

[cowboyz]

OH DEAR GOD ON A STICK!

LOOK GUYZ, KIWIBICKERERS HAZ BEEN SUPPORTING ACC. QUICK, BURN THEM ALLZ, THEY ARE EVIDENTLY SUPPORTING OUR REGISTRATION INCREASEZ!!

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=87086

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=86313


HEY! Look over there ------------------------>

Its a point that you seem to have missed by about 5 miles.

[PirateJafa]

HEY! Look over there ------------------------>

Its a point that you seem to have missed by about 5 miles.
I suggest you read the thread before posting, winner. :niceone:

[Rhubarb]

This is not so. If the property is privately owned, but is opened to the public with the use of some advertising or signage for the purposes of some public gathering, then it becomes a public place for that time. Any member of the public may conduct themselves within the law on that property during the time of the event. The organisers must terminate the event and publicly ask everyone to leave if they want their private property back.

Sorry, but you are not within your rights to compel a citizen acting within the law to do anything. You would do well to remember this, save comebacks of this nature.


It is my understanding that you are incorrect regarding the event being in a public place.

The organisers had a permit from the Council to operate therefore they took on the responsibility of managing the site so they needed to implement conditions such as barriers, toilets, an approved traffic management plan and so on.

For the period that the permit covers it is no longer a public place, it is under the control of the event organiser. The event organiser is responsible for what happens within the site and can do what they like as long as it falls within the terms under which the permit was issued.

I have been involved in running an event on what is normally a public place but for the period the permit covers it becomes a private venue that you can even charge entry for. Take the Hamilton V8's, the Greymouth or Wyndham motorbike racing as examples.

I'm not siding with either party on the pamphlet issue but I think if facts are posted they should at least be correct.

[oldrider]

Sorry for responding to your post so out of order......the volume of stuff on the thread has been hard to manage and respond to easily. It's hard to put together a single response to every query

Regardless of outcome....some equity would be nice.

What a load of "Bullshit". (IMHO)

You should have just told the "simple" truth in the first place!

Were ACC were sponsers of your event? YES! Did you cock up? YES!

Nothing else to report, move on!

Reading through this thread some adages sprang to mind:

To quote couple: "Me thinks he protest too much" (Shakespear)

"Would that God the gift to give us, to see ourselves as others see us" (Robbie Burns)

[PirateJafa]

Dont see this as kangaroo court at all.

:lol:

Are you blind or just mentally feeble?

Taken from the first page of this thread alone...


That's a good enough reason for me to NEVER consider Golightly insurance, or to buy anything from Rolling Thunder.


What hypocrites, they have missed an opportunity to promote motorcycling and promoting the problems with ACC!!

FFS Golightly Insurance and Rolling Thunder can go fuck themselves......Oh they already have!!


Never dealt with Golightly or Rolling Thunder. And never will!


Sounds like a good excuse not to support Biktoberfest any more.


second that, what a bunch off tossers they are.

hand them out brother stick it to da man


Higher bullshit than that even, The two faced bastards, I'm never going to biketoberfest again, OK I've never been but if I had I wouldn't go again. :kick:


X2 :shit::angry:

[cowboyz]

I suggest you read the thread before posting, winner. :niceone:

errr. I have been here since the beginning.. I never posted until rt put his side across.

There is no argument to answer.

both agree that ACC had a role in the event - I have no problem at all with ACC being involved in any event. Bankrolling an event however.,. thats not mint. But they have a job to do telling people to not injure themselves because in NZ, we dont have enough common sense to work that out for ourselves.

both agree that the organisers did not want ACC put to question at the event. - but here squats the toad. It would seem a perfect place to hand out awareness and transparency of what ACC is proposing. Hardly works in a bike shops favour if they are getting Mr 50 mid life crisis to buy a new Harley if they find out its gonna cost them $800 to register it.

Freedom of speech is a joke. Your saying rt can put a smoke screen over ACC and limited information from ACC but those that are effected by hidden agendas arent allowed to say.. hey.. heres a pamphlet.. want to read about what I dont like ?

[Headbanger]

Moral of the story.

Don't fuck with the man handing out the fuckin leaflets, thats not your role, Bitch.

Alright?

Otherwise, KB'er get mad.

And when KB'er get mad, Shit get crazy.

[imdying]

Gave up soon after the first few pages, I'll go back later and add all the hot headed fuckwits to my ignore list.

David Golightly is well known as a good cunt (tm)... and I pretty much hate everyone, so you can be pretty certain it's true if even someone like me has a good word to say about him.

I can't believe you sissys would even pay attention to someone telling you what you can and can't hand out on a public street... are you guys for real?!?!? Go the hard arse bikers....

Chris you're crazy to think that, given the final submissions date, and the amount of teenage angst over the issue, that people wouldn't be politicing over the ACC issues at your event. As they're within their rights to do. Don't expect anything than mob justice here though, the lies and half truths are standard fare on this forum.

/edit: Apparently I'll have to wait till Jantar isn't a mod before I can add him to my ignore list... :rolleyes:

[Genestho]

I dont think that ACC presence is a bad thing.

But sweeping issues under the carpet and pretending its all good is a bad thing.

Reading slightly between the lines of rolling thunders posts the underlying tone (feel free to correct) is that bikers do not have any sense of common courtesty and are a bunch of misfits running round looking for pitchforks and flame torches.

Sorry - I didn't read into anything too hard.

I believe there should be a balance of giving your customers or supporters what they want, and having a voice, and having ACC at events like this.

At the end of the day, you crash (or somebody crashes into you!) - they'll pay.

I agree with you that it's in their vested interest to be at events like this.

It's quite simple that if ACC are going to be at an event in light of the current circumstances, both organisers of events and ACC - need to accept Riders will want to politely have their say.
There have been only peaceful rides, and protests, so I can't see why Riders can't politely have their say (IMO)

And thus, if ACC still want to support Bike events, they should understand this, or not be involved at all.

You guys have to remember rep's from ACC events are not responsible for these proposals, and remember to respect they're doing their job.

I guess for any organiser, the fear is mob mentality turning an event into custard.
Tricky situation for all involved really.


Alot of work, time, and money goes into these events. And really I feel for the organisers getting flamed here. Organisers primarily please sponsors foremost.

The organisers dealt with this the way they saw fit - sadly a thread like this is divisive, and sidelines the real issue.

[eelracing]

G'day,



It's probably worth giving a little bit of background

Dave Golightly, from Golightly Insurance, is a guy our dealership has partnered with.

While Dave and I are now insurance competitors we will always be friends and will continue to organize Biketoberfest together as long as it exists.

collectively decided how we would all respond if we were faced with an issue regarding the ACC levies(more on that later).


Chris Elles


Reading between the lines (as above)and if I was a cynical cunt (and I am)
and knowing ACC are under orders from ACC Minister Nick Smith to doctor the figures to make the books look bad (applying private insurance assumptions to a no blame system)
And knowing National want to introduce competition to ACC it does'nt take a brain surgeon to work out what angle you and your insurance toadies are coming from.

[kerryhare]

I wonder what would of happened if one had been walking around this event wearing an ACC protest Tee Shirt, would they have been told to take it off. Just a thought.

[Kiwi Graham]

Having read all that has been said. I have to say I'm impressed that Chris has fronted up and attempted answering the questions/accusations put to him.

Not living on the mainland meant on this occasion I was unable to attend the show. I would have attended regardless of wether ACC sponsored it or not. I would not have minded being give a leaflet objecting to the ACC levy and probably been more supprised had there been no representation of the struggle the motorcycle industry and motorcyclists are having with this issue.

I am dissapointed the OP hasn't taken up the invitation of further debate in the thread. and clarify the points Chris has made.

I dont agree that handing out leaflets would have marred the positive vibe of the days intention (anybody would need to have their head well buried in the sand not to realise about the ACC levy issue) In fact as mentioned in other threads its the general public that are behind us and are generally well informed. Its a little patronising to try and protect them from what is happening and only direct this to other motorcyclists.

I have yet to see any ugly scenes relating to motorcyclist protesting this proposed increase. I was part of the contingent that called on John Keys office in Kumeu and can say we were all perfectly respectable and polite and at no point did it stand a chance of being anything else.

If you had your time over again Chris after hearing how the motorcyclists (on KB anyway) feels would you have allowed the freedom of the OP to 'peacfully' hand out his flyers within the general population of the show?

[shrub]

I think Chris did a great job, and handing out flyers is probably now a bit irrelevant. Anyone in the bike community who doesn't know about the levies is either asleep or doesn't care. The most important thing we (as a community that includes dealers like Chris) is build bridges between us, meet, talk and plan reasoned, rational, legal and effective action. Biketoberfest was a valuable part of that process.

I know David Golightly well, and have met Chris several times, and both men are passionate and committed motorcyclists with total integrity who add a lot of value to the community (and BTW I don't ride a Harley).

[gothavealaugh]

Well I think we need to vote with our wallets and I for one am not happy about hearing this attude towards a effort to get the message out to the general public. I don't live in christchurch so I don't need to worry about Rolling Thunder ever getting a cent of mine and golightly/Honda Riders Club Insurance (only the insurance part mind you) and vero insurance have no chance of getting a dollar from me and I will move my policy for my business elsewhere does any body know of a supporting company I can take my money to.

[shrub]

or more to the point, they know all about the levy rises (their cars are going up too) and there has been a truck load of media coverage. Handing out flyers may be easy and feel good, but that's not what's needed right now. What is needed is reasoned and concerted action by a united motorcycling community. We need to get heard by the Select Committee and we need to win over ACC, the Government and the non-motorcycling community.

Otherwise we'll get what we deserve.

[cowboyz]

.

I am dissapointed the OP hasn't taken up the invitation of further debate in the thread. and clarify the points Chris has made.


If you had your time over again Chris after hearing how the motorcyclists (on KB anyway) feels would you have allowed the freedom of the OP to 'peacfully' hand out his flyers within the general population of the show?

what points need debating? Both agree the Op was there handing out pamphlets. Both agree RT asked him to stop.

The merit of such a decision has been shaddowed with (actually, if I going to be honest - pretty badly written) PR spin doctoring.

Your question is very valid though.. Given the same circumstances, would RT act in the same manner?

[JimO]

Well I think we need to vote with our wallets and I for one am not happy about hearing this attude towards a effort to get the message out to the general public. I don't live in christchurch so I don't need to worry about Rolling Thunder ever getting a cent of mine and golightly/Honda Riders Club Insurance (only the insurance part mind you) and vero insurance have no chance of getting a dollar from me and I will move my policy for my business elsewhere does any body know of a supporting company I can take my money to.

overreaction??? my bike is insured with vero and will continue to be

[JimO]

what points need debating? Both agree the Op was there handing out pamphlets. Both agree RT asked him to stop.

The merit of such a decision has been shaddowed with (actually, if I going to be honest - pretty badly written) PR spin doctoring.

Your question is very valid though.. Given the same circumstances, would RT act in the same manner?

its R/Ts party they can do what they want

[gothavealaugh]

overreaction??? my bike is insured with vero and will continue to be

Good on you thats your choice, but do you support what was done, I will need to be wise with dollars with the increases and nothing hurts more than giving money to a company that doesn't support my passion for Motorcycles

[The Stranger]

Getting our hands dirty over the past year with a good number of rider safety training events at Ruapuna that happens to be using rideforever.co.nz literature is doing more for keeping our fellow riders upright than what most are doing.



Do you have research to back that position?
The Police have clearly stated that rider training is counter productive. Their "logic" is that confident rider/drivers drive faster and speed kills ergo training kills.
This view is to all intents and purposes consistent with the government's view as they really do NOT support driver or rider training in any meaningful way. Any of their "education" is about the perils of driving etc, not about how to actually drive or ride.
A number of years ago they trialed the competency based training. This was axed and not re-instituted, perhaps they do know more than we do in this regard.

[JimO]

Good on you thats your choice, but do you support what was done, I will need to be wise with dollars with the increases and nothing hurts more than giving money to a company that doesn't support my passion for Motorcycles

im self employed have 5 cars, 2 bikes so will have a huge amount going to acc and i dont support the increases but do support Rolling Thunder and Dave Golightly not wanting the pamphlets handed out....would you be happy if you were having a party to christen a new baby and the anti aborting crew wanted to hand out their pamphlets. I know its not the same thing but!! .....the op was told where he could hand out the flyers but chose to stir things up on here, the great KB knocking machine

[cowboyz]

its R/Ts party they can do what they want

absoultley!

and if I decide to go skydiving without a parachute then I should be allowed to.. Just have to face the consequences of my decision midflight.

[avgas]

(and BTW I don't ride a Harley).
So do you wave?

[imdying]

Good on you thats your choice, but do you support what was done, I will need to be wise with dollars with the increases and nothing hurts more than giving money to a company that doesn't support my passion for MotorcyclesDavid Golightly has done more for local motorcycling than you ever will :rolleyes: To suggest that he doesn't support your passion for motorcycles just shows you up as an uninformed moron :bash:

[shrub]

David Golightly has done more for local motorcycling than you ever will :rolleyes: To suggest that he doesn't support your passion for motorcycles just shows you up as an uninformed moron :bash:

I'm insured with him and always will be.

[gothavealaugh]

im self employed have 5 cars, 2 bikes so will have a huge amount going to acc and i dont support the increases but do support Rolling Thunder and Dave Golightly not wanting the pamphlets handed out....would you be happy if you were having a party to christen a new baby and the anti aborting crew wanted to hand out their pamphlets. I know its not the same thing but!! .....the op was told where he could hand out the flyers but chose to stir things up on here, the great KB knocking machine

Maybe not the best example to use there at all, how bout if you went to a political event and some was handing out info on how to vote would you be offended, thats what was being done just information being passed out. We need the support of the Masses not just the motorcyclists if we are to be heard so getting the info to all people is important. I was at the Auckland Uylesses ride and if some came there handing out info on a Bike Shop or Business that supported the cause I would not have complained or if someone came from Acc I would have enjoyed getting to discuss the issues with the proposed changes. Guess thats me I support free speech

[The Stranger]

Bang on, and rep to you for putting that probably quite unpopular yet completely correct opinion out there.

Unfortunately, you'll be finding that KBers are quite quick to disagree with anyone who doesn't kiss their arse.

You wanted to run a positive event, and good on you. You're actually putting your money where your mouth is, unlike the keyboard warriors on here. Keep up the good work. :niceone:

But hey, that bus is quite heavy and I could use some help holding it up thanks.

[avgas]

im self employed have 5 cars, 2 bikes so will have a huge amount going to acc and i dont support the increases but do support Rolling Thunder and Dave Golightly not wanting the pamphlets handed out....would you be happy if you were having a party to christen a new baby and the anti aborting crew wanted to hand out their pamphlets. I know its not the same thing but!! .....the op was told where he could hand out the flyers but chose to stir things up on here, the great KB knocking machine
I completely agree with this, "KB is full of love and disrespect..." (you know who you are...).
Facts that I am still not happy about are the following...
- ACC sponsorship, when their books don't balance - and we are apparently to blame.
- R/T and Golightly not just cutting to the point of why they didn't want the pamphlets given out. And still haven't......
- R/T and Golightly not just saying "IT WAS AN ACC EVENT, so we cant condone such acts".

I am sure the crew at R/T and Golightly are super nice people - but they are a bit naive if they just think that we needed a background story. When it comes to politics (of any kind), the last thing you do is smoke and mirrors.
Honesty can sometimes be a 1000 words without the cover story.
-Stew

[gothavealaugh]

David Golightly has done more for local motorcycling than you ever will :rolleyes: To suggest that he doesn't support your passion for motorcycles just shows you up as an uninformed moron :bash:

Well thats really nice, so why was he acting this way to a person handing out information. I hope he keeps up his support but it won't be with support from My wallet that is my choice yours is yours.

[DMNTD]

i...the op was told where he could hand out the flyers but chose to stir things up on here, the great kb knocking machine

+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[imdying]

Well thats really nice, so why was he acting this way to a person handing out information. I hope he keeps up his support but it won't be with support from My wallet that is my choice yours is yours.Read the post below your one my slow friend...:blink:

[gothavealaugh]

Read the post below your one my slow friend...:blink:

And read Ixions post earlier in this thread the message need to go out to the general public as well as the motorcycle community. Being told to go and sit in the corner to hand out flyers is pushing this issue to the side. Again I believe this is not a good look and one I don't support.

So folks the choice is always yours where you spend your money and mine won't go to rolling thunder, or golightly or his supporting brands.

Now tell me to pull my head in but what was offensive in handing out material.

[imdying]

Everyone is well aware of the situation, wanting to just enjoy motorcycling for a day without having politicing in your face isn't too much to ask, especially as alternatives were given.

[MSTRS]

Funny how one inflammatory post can set a thread on a path of destruction. One that shows no sign of slowing down.
Seems to me that the OP had his own idea of what he should do, and didn't like being told that he would have to do it another way.
End of story.

[Brian d marge]

David Golightly has done more for local motorcycling than you ever will :rolleyes: To suggest that he doesn't support your passion for motorcycles just shows you up as an uninformed moron :bash:

What you disagreeing with

1 was handing out pamphlets

2 the other made a call he thought was right

trouble is , if its not on private property also it was about a very important subject it was wrongly handled


in this business environment that can cause a un wanted reaction


it doesn't matter if you are gods gift to man, Word of mouth is an effective advertisement , I know this I use it for promoting my business


My personal feeling is that any not out and about doing all they can to stop this ACC ( and in my opinion the business round table)

I dont know these people from a bar of soap,,,,l but Rolling Thunder the name has been used in a negative light ,,,,,so would I shop there .....( its that brutal ,,,happens to my business ,,,,)

One click on me enter button and a few days wait , ......

Stephen

[gothavealaugh]

Everyone is well aware of the situation, wanting to just enjoy motorcycling for a day without having politicing in your face isn't too much to ask, especially as alternatives were given.

I don't think everyone is aware how many non motorcyclists don't know what is happening and facts about the changes to Acc

As for enjoying a day without politics

Put your Helmet on and go for a ride unless you have voices in your head I can assure you won't hear anything about acc. Go and enjoy motorcycling while you still can afford to.

[imdying]

It's impossible to know the number of non-motorcyclists at the event, and of those, how many are unaware of the proposed ACC levy hikes, but I'd wager that the proportion would have been pretty small given the press the issue has had.

I will always be able to afford motorcycling, I spend more on oil in a year than this levy increase amounts to... you're being overly dramatic. Have a gander at what they pay overseas and count yourself lucky.

[Genestho]

End of.....
Mmmm agreed.

Hammer, Nail, Head.

May I suggest to OP, when plan A, or B don't work out....A) talk to organisers, B) ask permission, establish prior contact and discussion.....
Adapt to the situation. (As in the solution offered)
Like a game of chess, think ahead - quite often plans don't go as expected :)

I'm sure alot has been learned here :)

[vifferman]

Having read the whole thread (dispassionately) it seems to me the whole thing's been blown up out of all proportion, not helped by various KBers chipping in with their 2cents' worth (no longer legal currency, y'know...)

I think Rolling Thunder's response to this has been surprisingly restrained, given that they were slagged off not just by the original poster, but by people who posted without first finding out all the facts. These KBers seem to have aligned themselves with the OP merely because they're anti-ACC, and because they've assumed that Rolling Thunder et alia are in bed with the ACC and are therefore the enemy and not to be trusted.

I think if I'd spent lots of time and effort organising an event like this, and someone turned up out of the blue and started handing out leaflets without giving me the courtesy of talking to me about it first, then getting huffy because they took what I said the wrong way, I'm sure I would feel quite aggrieved. Whose event was it? Was it a KiwiBiker event, or a Rolling Thunder organised event?

A bit of effective communication (perhaps on both sides?) and a bit less emotion and this would be a non-issue. Or perhaps it could have been a cause for celebration instead.

[Big Dave]

If I was running an event and received dedicated sponsorship from party A - I wouldn't allow Party B to disparage A at the event.

Outside it is B's business.

Inside it is a breach of the original trust.

Any subsequent agreements would also be unlikely.

[AllanB]

Just a bit pissed I missed the day. Got busy with the family as one does and had to decide between a trip to Manchester Street or a actual ride on the bike …. The bike won.

I think it’s a shame that RT and DG are being slagged off here – I personally agree with them – it was never designed as a protest. There was a run on Saturday for this.

I’m also surprised at the number of scathing responses from members who live nowhere near Christchurch and have never put a foot in Rolling Thunder or any of the other dealers doors. But this is KB.

The bringing together of all the dealers in Manchester Street for this event is IMO, a huge step forward for motorcycling in Christchurch and I’ll make dam sure I’m there next year.

[judgeshock]

Well I would like to say thankyou to Chris and David for putting alot of work into Biketoberfest. I thoroughly enjoyed the day.

It was also very nice to be part of a wonderful motorcycle community that were there on the day to enjoy everything motorcycling.

I for one enjoyed the positives without having the ACC topic hanging over the day. We have had plenty of that and theres plenty to come.

Sometimes it's nice to think purely of the beautiful machines that we love without the crap surrounding it. We still have to remember why we ride and enjoy two wheels.

Sometimes it's better to pick battles wisely rather than jumping into every fight that presents itself.

[lakedaemonian]

Having read the whole thread (dispassionately) it seems to me the whole thing's been blown up out of all proportion, not helped by various KBers chipping in with their 2cents' worth (no longer legal currency, y'know...)

I think Rolling Thunder's response to this has been surprisingly restrained, given that they were slagged off not just by the original poster, but by people who posted without first finding out all the facts. These KBers seem to have aligned themselves with the OP merely because they're anti-ACC, and because they've assumed that Rolling Thunder et alia are in bed with the ACC and are therefore the enemy and not to be trusted.

I think if I'd spent lots of time and effort organising an event like this, and someone turned up out of the blue and started handing out leaflets without giving me the courtesy of talking to me about it first, then getting huffy because they took what I said the wrong way, I'm sure I would feel quite aggrieved. Whose event was it? Was it a KiwiBiker event, or a Rolling Thunder organised event?

A bit of effective communication (perhaps on both sides?) and a bit less emotion and this would be a non-issue. Or perhaps it could have been a cause for celebration instead.

Cheers for the calm, cool, and collected post.

I sincerely hope that the collective national motorcycling industry and community can focus their efforts on effecting change with this issue.

It may not have been a Kiwibiker event, but it was one in which Kiwibikers were specifically invited to come along and help develop, organize, and/or attend alongside their peers in the easier to reach motorcycle clubs.

It's a shame we didn't have more folks involved in the event from KB who could provide their perspective on our meetings between the dealers and clubs.

But the opportunity for some to attend the event debrief next week is again offered.

[lakedaemonian]

Well I would like to say thankyou to Chris and David for putting alot of work into Biketoberfest. I thoroughly enjoyed the day.

It was also very nice to be part of a wonderful motorcycle community that were there on the day to enjoy everything motorcycling.

I for one enjoyed the positives without having the ACC topic hanging over the day. We have had plenty of that and theres plenty to come.

Sometimes it's nice to think purely of the beautiful machines that we love without the crap surrounding it. We still have to remember why we ride and enjoy two wheels.

Sometimes it's better to pick battles wisely rather than jumping into every fight that presents itself.

You are always most welcome and thank you for expressing your opinion probably a good bit better than I on some of my posts in this thread.

[lakedaemonian]

Just a bit pissed I missed the day. Got busy with the family as one does and had to decide between a trip to Manchester Street or a actual ride on the bike …. The bike won.

I think it’s a shame that RT and DG are being slagged off here – I personally agree with them – it was never designed as a protest. There was a run on Saturday for this.

I’m also surprised at the number of scathing responses from members who live nowhere near Christchurch and have never put a foot in Rolling Thunder or any of the other dealers doors. But this is KB.

The bringing together of all the dealers in Manchester Street for this event is IMO, a huge step forward for motorcycling in Christchurch and I’ll make dam sure I’m there next year.

Cheers......yeah we've made a lot of progress this past year in our local motorcyling community......sometimes it's been hard for us to notice when all too often head down and ass up.

I think the push this year is going to be to try and cut through as much of the remaining skepticism as we can.

We have always believed there are significant gains to be made(and we're not just exclusively about commercial/financial) when we are able to unite occasionally as a single community instead of scattered amongst eleventeen two wheeled iwis.....

[lakedaemonian]

If I was running an event and received dedicated sponsorship from party A - I wouldn't allow Party B to disparage A at the event.

Outside it is B's business.

Inside it is a breach of the original trust.

Any subsequent agreements would also be unlikely.

Good post.

It's safe to say that with planning going on for many months and getting hit with the ACC announcement not long prior to our event, the word awkward would simply fail to describe the situation.

It was too late to even consider parting ways on the seperate rider safety advertising ACC funded and was broadcast.

And it's definitely safe to say the dealer and club organizers involved had too much personal integrity to even consider throwing ACC under the bus in a cold blooded fashion for this event.

We approached our long planned rider safety relationship with ACC for this event in good faith.

Lessons learned, and what we do( or do not do) next year could see us in a long meeting next week!

[lakedaemonian]

It's impossible to know the number of non-motorcyclists at the event, and of those, how many are unaware of the proposed ACC levy hikes, but I'd wager that the proportion would have been pretty small given the press the issue has had.

I will always be able to afford motorcycling, I spend more on oil in a year than this levy increase amounts to... you're being overly dramatic. Have a gander at what they pay overseas and count yourself lucky.

We are still trying to gauge attendance.

I spent about 30 minutes or so around Noon on the roof with a few of our keen photographers for a better angle to see the whole layout and attendees.

Personally, I think we had a rather large number of non-riders there.....but what's the definition of a "non-rider".

We had heaps of kids based on the prams and toddlers we saw as well as the large number climbing on the tank, bouncy castle, and filling the edge of the trials bike display when on.

Were lots of the kids(including my own)motorcyclist sprogs, surely....but annecdotally we saw a lot of "Mum, Dad, and Pram" that clearly came in the car.

[Laxi]

You dumb fuck, as he said, ACC got involved with them last fall. We've only been "being screwed" by ACC for a couple of weeks.

Good too see the KB kangaroo court is hard at work.
MY BAD! you're quite right! (well not sure about the "dumb fuck" bit but thats a disscusion for later :scratch:) I appologise for that post, beer had clouded my thought process, sure ACC was brought into it well before they went all nazi on us, and if the idea of bringing them onboard was to push rider training, then it was a good idea and well worth a try. BUT it still dosn't change the fact that ACC was represented in the grounds, but anti ACC levey activities were restricted to outside

If I was running an event and received dedicated sponsorship from party A - I wouldn't allow Party B to disparage A at the event.


if it was a bar and "party A" was buying the peanuts, and "party B" was buying the whiskeys, what would you do?

[I GS 1]

Maybe not the best example to use there at all, how bout if you went to a political event and some was handing out info on how to vote would you be offended, thats what was being done just information being passed out.

Must say I also liked the analogy of anti abortion pamphlets being handed out at a christening party

I would like to know if the group so highly offended by the Biktoberfest organisers' decision, honestly believe that not being able to hand out pamphlets made any difference at all. (A straight answer to that question would be nice) I can't imagine what makes them think that the people who were actually there, would be unaware of the ACC levy proposal and of the importace of putting in a submission, or if they wanted to, how to - both motorcyclists and those interested enough to come and have a look.

What worries me more is a question I was asked when I got to work today. "Why did so few motorcyclists actually protest, when there seems to be so many motorcyclists in Christchurch" and this was the gist of the question asked by quite a few. They all had heard from the media that there were about 300 on the protest ride, and were under the impression that Timaru had a much bigger turn out. They had also seen "thousands" of bikes buzzing around Christchurch over the weekend, 300 seemed pale in comparason

It is interesting that the protest ride got coverage in the Press and the amazing Biketoberfest none. I think that it was an unfortunate move for local motorcycling at this difficult ACC time, when those concerned decided to try and mix the two. Personally I think that they should have been kept completely separate and not even the same weekend.

[Maki]

Thanks for providing "the facts" from both sides. My tip to you, lakedaemonian, is to come 100% clean from the getgo and save self righteous spouting about what a hard working saint you are. On the other hand you have a business to run and that should be respected.

Your customers and potential customers also have a right to decide WHO they do business with.

[lakedaemonian]

I completely agree with this, "KB is full of love and disrespect..." (you know who you are...).
Facts that I am still not happy about are the following...
- ACC sponsorship, when their books don't balance - and we are apparently to blame.
- R/T and Golightly not just cutting to the point of why they didn't want the pamphlets given out. And still haven't......
- R/T and Golightly not just saying "IT WAS AN ACC EVENT, so we cant condone such acts".

I am sure the crew at R/T and Golightly are super nice people - but they are a bit naive if they just think that we needed a background story. When it comes to politics (of any kind), the last thing you do is smoke and mirrors.
Honesty can sometimes be a 1000 words without the cover story.
-Stew

Hi Stew,

My decision to post, and post at length, is to try and share where we were, and are, coming from with this.

In a thread where guilt was immediately assumed by many and an occasional poster chch_zed was assumed to be 100% forthcoming in regards to the conversation, I chose to provide some backstory on our event.

If you feel that was wrong, inappropriate, misleading, or an attempt to manipulate all I can do is keep posting to see where it leads and live with the consequences.

I didn't think responding to a very misleading and melodramatic post with a mere sentence or two would get the job done.

I'm hoping my response to Big Dave in regards to ACC might clarify things? If not, feel free to PM or post.

[Big Dave]

if it was a bar and "party A" was buying the peanuts, and "party B" was buying the whiskeys, what would you do?

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[lakedaemonian]

And read Ixions post earlier in this thread the message need to go out to the general public as well as the motorcycle community. Being told to go and sit in the corner to hand out flyers is pushing this issue to the side. Again I believe this is not a good look and one I don't support.

So folks the choice is always yours where you spend your money and mine won't go to rolling thunder, or golightly or his supporting brands.

Now tell me to pull my head in but what was offensive in handing out material.

But he wasn't told to sit in the corner.

We asked him to stop where he was, we asked him to move to the entry/exit point where every motorcyclist funneled through and go for gold.

I mean no offense by this, but surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to think that a response rate in terms of people who will actually accept a call to action will be far higher within our own community than non-riding mom, dad, and the kids.

I've got some experience in political lobbying....both the cold-call skin thickening political cause fund raising and call to action; as well as directly lobbying elected legislators.

At that moment, while one of the many folks trying to keep things from blowing apart at the seams, keeping an eye on my dealership, talking to customers, and spending a quick second with my kids I felt it was a wasted and ineffective effort and a bit pissed nobody even bothered to have a quick chat with any of the organizers.

Shoot from the hip? Certainly, but based on a "what should we do if?" we decided on early that morning.

Opinions and results may vary......

[lakedaemonian]

BUT it still dosn't change the fact that ACC was represented in the grounds, but anti ACC levey activities were restricted to outside


To clarify, ACC was not present or represented at the event, ACC pulled the pin approx. a week prior before we as a group had a chance to consider how we would handle it as it was our choice ultimately.

[peasea]

:jerry::jerry::jerry::jerry::jerry::jerry:

[lakedaemonian]

Thanks for providing "the facts" from both sides. My tip to you, lakedaemonian, is to come 100% clean from the getgo and save self righteous spouting about what a hard working saint you are. On the other hand you have a business to run and that should be respected.

Your customers and potential customers also have a right to decide WHO they do business with.

As stated, I've tried to do my best here and am continuing to post.

As far as coming 100% clean, the offer to host a few KBers at our event debrief has been made a number of times.

I don't recall the self rightous spouting, but will have a good read over and over when all said and done and take it onboard.

Usually I try to take the piss out of myself to lighten the mood and hopefully there will be an opportunity for that yet, if I haven't already done so in an unintended way :)


I take your post onboard, and I don't take the potential consequences lightly.

[Laxi]

To clarify, ACC was not present or represented at the event, ACC pulled the pin approx. a week prior before we as a group had a chance to consider how we would handle it as it was our choice ultimately.

farrk mate! maybe I have to read back through this lot, (nah screw that:blink:) i only recall you saying they were a sponsor, would stand to reason they would be there, wouldn't have been simpler to have said in your 1st post that they wern't represented?

[lakedaemonian]

farrk mate! maybe I have to read back through this lot, (nah screw that:blink:) i only recall you saying they were a sponsor, would stand to reason they would be there, wouldn't have been simpler to have said in your 1st post that they wern't represented?

Yeah I could have sworn it's in there once or twice earlier in the thread?

Somewhere back on like Page 2 or 3, volume eleventeen, subchapter A :)

We actually pushed pretty hard for them to have a physical presence when we first started integrating them into our Biketoberfest plans.

Obviously, with the ACC ban on staff attending motorbike functions, there was no presence....so we didn't have to face the problem of getting nailed either way here for them attending or not attending if it came down to our choice.

[lakedaemonian]

Having read all that has been said. I have to say I'm impressed that Chris has fronted up and attempted answering the questions/accusations put to him.

Not living on the mainland meant on this occasion I was unable to attend the show. I would have attended regardless of wether ACC sponsored it or not. I would not have minded being give a leaflet objecting to the ACC levy and probably been more supprised had there been no representation of the struggle the motorcycle industry and motorcyclists are having with this issue.

I am dissapointed the OP hasn't taken up the invitation of further debate in the thread. and clarify the points Chris has made.

I dont agree that handing out leaflets would have marred the positive vibe of the days intention (anybody would need to have their head well buried in the sand not to realise about the ACC levy issue) In fact as mentioned in other threads its the general public that are behind us and are generally well informed. Its a little patronising to try and protect them from what is happening and only direct this to other motorcyclists.

I have yet to see any ugly scenes relating to motorcyclist protesting this proposed increase. I was part of the contingent that called on John Keys office in Kumeu and can say we were all perfectly respectable and polite and at no point did it stand a chance of being anything else.

If you had your time over again Chris after hearing how the motorcyclists (on KB anyway) feels would you have allowed the freedom of the OP to 'peacfully' hand out his flyers within the general population of the show?

Doh! <-------Homer Simpson voice

I knew somebody would eventually ask that question. :)

I seriously wish the witness was videotaping the conversation...it either would have eliminated 12 pages or resulted in 120 more .....most likely the former.

Anyone that knows me well(or possibly for some poor bastards, even just a bit) knows I have a small tendency to cover things several times over(and over) to the point of inflicting narcolepsy on my victim...especially when I'm worried about how the message will be perceived....this was one of those times.

Could we, and I in this case, have handled it better?

Certainly......

But could chch_zed have actually responded with something other than "OK" several times when I explained our position in boring detail with several clear opportunities over probably close to 5 minutes to respond WITHOUT trying to burn us with a partial story of what transpired?

Absolutely.....


With 30 hours to think about it, it clearly could have been handled better by both sides.

I'll check back later to see if chch_zed has turned up yet.

[imdying]

My tip to you, lakedaemonian, is to come 100% clean from the getgo and save self righteous spouting about what a hard working saint you are.Fuck that shit, they'd have been told if they'd actually asked if they'd be welcome to hand shit out there :rolleyes:

[Kiwi Graham]

Doh! <-------Homer Simpson voice

I knew somebody would eventually ask that question. :)

I seriously wish the witness was videotaping the conversation...it either would have eliminated 12 pages or resulted in 120 more .....most likely the former.

Anyone that knows me well(or possibly for some poor bastards, even just a bit) knows I have a small tendency to cover things several times over(and over) to the point of inflicting narcolepsy on my victim...especially when I'm worried about how the message will be perceived....this was one of those times.

Could we, and I in this case, have handled it better?

Certainly......

But could chch_zed have actually responded with something other than "OK" several times when I explained our position in boring detail with several clear opportunities over probably close to 5 minutes to respond WITHOUT trying to burn us with a partial story of what transpired?

Absolutely.....


With 30 hours to think about it, it clearly could have been handled better by both sides.

I'll check back later to see if chch_zed has turned up yet.

Respect. moving on now.

Appologies for my knee jerk first post.

Loosing any respect for the OP however, the silence is defening dude.

[CookMySock]

I can't believe you sissys would even pay attention to someone telling you what you can and can't hand out on a public street... are you guys for real?!?!? Go the hard arse bikers....This is a very important lesson, and the main message I would like to see the OP and others take from this. You may conduct yourself legally as you choose while in a public place. If someone asks you to take any action that you would rather not, you have every right to decline, either politely or otherwise.


These KBers seem to have aligned themselves with the OP merely because they're anti-ACC, and because they've assumed that Rolling Thunder et alia are in bed with the ACC and are therefore the enemy and not to be trusted.You combine two unrelated issues. The original objection was that some person had their public activities curtailed, perhaps inappropriately.


I have been involved in running an event on what is normally a public place but for the period the permit covers it becomes a private venue that you can even charge entry for. Take the Hamilton V8's, the Greymouth or Wyndham motorbike racing as examples.Agreed, but each person there would be an invited person, not a member of the general public.


bikers do not have any sense of common courtesty and are a bunch of misfits running round looking for pitchforks and flame torches.While bikers don't piss around with words, I think that description is a little "much".


Loosing any respect for the OP however, the silence is defening dude.That is a blatant troll. As has been noted, there was nothing further to "discuss".

I think all readers have made up their mind one way or the other by this point. There's little or no point banging heads together over it. The vendor isn't going to retract and apologise.

Move on.


Steve

[Starky307]

Well done Chris,
When I first saw you posting I thought to myself, don't bother, just let the fools (see note 1) rant and rave for a while and then it will all blow over.
After reading through all 13 pages (so far) I understand that you (and the other organizers) who put a lot of time and effort into this event, and while being stuck between a rock and a hard place (in regards to the ACC involvement) made the right decisions.

Note 1: By fools I am referring to the people who after hearing one person's side of a situation blow the whole thing out of the water. As an online community we need to stop this from happening as often as it does. (See note 2).

Note 2: I live in hope......

[200BUSA]

Well done Chris,
When I first saw you posting I thought to myself, don't bother, just let the fools (see note 1) rant and rave for a while and then it will all blow over.
After reading through all 13 pages (so far) I understand that you (and the other organizers) who put a lot of time and effort into this event, and while being stuck between a rock and a hard place (in regards to the ACC involvement) made the right decisions.

Note 1: By fools I am referring to the people who after hearing one person's side of a situation blow the whole thing out of the water. As an online community we need to stop this from happening as often as it does. (See note 2).

Note 2: I live in hope......


FOOLS I dont think so. People just wanted an answer. Free speech.

[sidecar bob]

FOOLS I dont think so. People just wanted an answer. Free speech.

Doubt it. People just wanted a public hanging & its always better with half the story.

[lakedaemonian]

Chris, Thank you for fronting up and adding a bit more to this saga. You have, I believe, clarified your position, but you haven't contradicted the events that took place.

Maybe you had good intentions,, but the effect of preventing the pamphlets being handed out at the best time and location is to give the impression that despite anything you may have said at the time, you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists.

I stand by my origional response.

Jantar, I'm new posting here......am I correct in assuming you are a Mod?

If not, sorry for bugging ya about the request and please jump down a bit.

If you are a mod, it would appear that I am being preemptively accused of using Jedi Mind Tricks to brainwash the supposedly feebleminded here.

The good news is that according to a fella named Dangerous my Harley Sith Lord powers should have no effect on those who resist the darkside.

I'd like to request the thread remain open.......I have no desire to start a poo flinging contest worth shutting it down and I sincerely hope no one I have somehow indoctrinated doesn't accidentally go all Boba Fett on this thread resulting in it's premature closure.

Just a bit of levity.....you will have no problems from me.....this is your house.....I will respect it and would prefer to avoid losing a chance to get some closure with what I feel has been a somewhat stacked deck which includes your first post and the quiet surrounded the missing in action chch_zed.

I'd like to discuss your 2nd post if you have the time.

"you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists" is what you wrote.

I'm sorry, but this sounds surprisingly like a "you are with us or you are with the terrorists" kind of statement that has pissed off so many folks around the world.

It would appear the only options with the more militant ACC levy folks is choosing between being accepted as a freedom fighting, motorcycle riding, Che Guevara or being branded a dirty nazi ACC collaborator.

I have chosen neither....and that choice doesn't include sitting on the fence for me.

Once again to clarify, we were not siding with or protecting ACC, as in my posts, I have clearly stated when they pulled out of actively participating in the event the week prior to the event.

While I suspect our desired objective is very similiar, it's disappointing to see that differences in means and methodology to achieve the common objective result in immediate questioning of my motorcycle proletariat fervor and motorcycle party loyalty.

I thought motorcycling was about freedom, specifically the freedom to choose more than just A or B?

A poster or three here has questioned why I and others in the industry haven't played a more active/vocal role in leading the fight against the ACC levy increases.

To be honest, for me, I'm still forming my in debth opinion and tweaking my submission.....but superficially I have been sharing my opinion with dozens and dozens of motorcyclists...DAILY... since I first learned of the rise while overseas.

One area where I think several folks here and I differ.....and probably plays a role in the heart of the half-truth accusation starting the thread is what part non motorcyclists play in this effort.

Does anyone actually think we can assume a 100% submission or active participation rate for motorcyclists? If so, I'd take that bet in a heart beat.

Because we pushed chch_zed towards lobbying motorcyclists instead pandering to politically disinterested non-riders attending, one or more in the community here flippantly(in my opinion) stated that motorcyclists already know and should get involved.

Is that REALLY going to happen?

It will be easy enough to find out the number of submissions will it not?

When discounting the number of multiple bike owners, will we see a 90% participation rate in ACC submissions?

80%? 50%? 40%? What do you reckon?

What about non-riders? How many non-riders who are lobbied will make a submission on our behalf? Any? 1% 5% 10%

Isn't it a numbers and probability game?

I also understand there is more to it than just the ACC submission.....I'm lucky enough to have done a bit of lobbying in the past with some success in a previous life.

But knowing a little about it from the coalface back in the day leaves me wondering what makes people think that just because someone owns a business in the industry they automatically possess the skillset to take on a leadership role in industry lobbying efforts....many are not interested.....but many are not suited.

I can clearly recall a fella in NZ a few years ago officially representing firearms owners, quite possibly because he happened to be a firearms dealer, getting absolutely set up and fried where the cause of media death was largely self inflicted.

People on KB have historically whinged about how incompetent dealership staff and owners can be.....yet KBers prod them to take the lead in a rather important battle?

Here in Christchurch, our community has spent the better part of a year trying to trust each other and work together towards a common goal...and we've had some success....hopefully we can leverage it further.

I believe my post and questions are legitimate(minus the cheeky request which I believe is fair comment considering the amount of sh!t tossed my way), and I hope you are able to take the time to consider it and respond thoughtfully and fairly.

Again...sorry for the long-winded post......it's approximating the length and content of the conversation I had with chch_zed ;)

Cheers...

[Jantar]

.....

"you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists" is what you wrote.......
Actually, I said that you gave the impression that you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists. There is a bit of difference when the context is included.

I've responded to your other points by pm.

[lakedaemonian]

Actually, I said that you gave the impression that you were siding with ACC against motorcyclists. There is a bit of difference when the context is included.

I've responded to your other points by pm.

Cheers, got the PM.

[Starky307]

FOOLS I dont think so. People just wanted an answer. Free speech.

Go back to the first page and read through it again. You will see posts 2,3,4,6,9,10,12 and 15 are all lynching Chris (and fellow organisers) and the event itself. This was all based on what was written and taken as "gospel truth" by one person, the OP.

One of these people has since apologised for his knee jerk reaction, but the rest appear to have drifted off into cyber space...

I'm just saying, there is always two side to every situation and a lot of people seem to have forgotten that around here.

[caseye]

More than one has apologised and allowing this to die a natural is the only way it'll go away, hence no more posts from me.
Good on you Starky307, saying what you believe is something I am all for, meaning what you say is another.
Chris hang in there the flying column is arriving in force.
Good luck with next years Biketoberfest and I hope you keep all your hard won sponsors.

[avgas]

My decision to post, and post at length, is to try and share where we were, If you feel that was wrong, inappropriate, misleading, or an attempt to manipulate all I can do is keep posting to see where it leads and live with the consequences.
After re-reading the whole thread, I can see your problem - and unfortunately it seems to be a personal one that you alone has to manage.
You have proved my assumption that you are a good guy deep down, but unfortunately its not what you say that will get you flamed in the public eye (even worse here), its what you don't say.
I actually assumed from the word go that the original poster had their nickers in a twist - due to not being allowed to be a wedding crasher.
I also would find it difficult to allow him to give out anti-ACC in my ACC event. In fact if someone did try and do something like that - I would be downright pissed off.
But the annoying thing here was - YOU DIDN'T SPEAK YOUR MIND.

I have already spoken my mind (and got flamed for it) about how pissed off I am about ACC's misappropriations of funds. But this is aimed at ACC not you (in fact for organising an event of any calibre i think you need an award!).

So speak your mind - If you don't like sods giving out flyers on your event, say so.......I fricken hate people giving me annoying bits of paper all the time. Even if its anti-ACC its still as usefull as a "free gym membership" or "Jesus saves" propaganda i get every day.

[Big Dave]

Again...sorry for the long-winded post)


Man what a paragon of patience.

I woulda told 'em to fuck off and mind their own business by now. :woohoo:

[Pixie]

I can relate to the aspect that you did not want to "blast" the public with more paper - but that does not mean that you could not have put it on a table someone for people to collect.
It does sound suspiciously like you were looking after you "benefactors".
How does ACC fit with your event?

-Stewart Farr

's'funny.........You go to you bike after a race meeting and you have to dig it out from under a pile of paper the "industry" has tried to bury it with.......

[Pixie]

We collectively decided that while ACC levies would likely be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and last topic of conversation for motorcyclists on the day, and while we strongly encourage motorcyclists to make their individual ACC submissions we created the event to celebrate motorcycling and to promote a positive image for motorcycling amongst the 99% non-riding community.



You delude yourself if you think that submissions alone will be sufficient to stop the hikes.
If they go ahead,you can kiss any hope of attracting any of the 99% non-riding community to bikes.

[Pixie]

Veil of anonymity. I'm presuming.

No,Vale of Animinty is a magical valley,populated by cute little,minty flavoured animals.

[Big Dave]

You delude yourself if you think that submissions alone will be sufficient to stop the hikes.
If they go ahead,you can kiss any hope of attracting any of the 99% non-riding community to bikes.

I don't think there is any argument that the levy increases will have a detrimental effect on the industry.

Reports of its death are premature.

Attached is what Compulsory insurance in NSW costs for a clean skin, 50 year old man on a dual sport.

Work it out on a squid if you like:
http://prices.maa.nsw.gov.au/index.html

Why I am ardently fighting against it is because it is discrimination.

One group of people being singled out to account for their costs while others in the community get a free pass. In a no-fault system.

[lakedaemonian]

After re-reading the whole thread, I can see your problem - and unfortunately it seems to be a personal one that you alone has to manage.
You have proved my assumption that you are a good guy deep down, but unfortunately its not what you say that will get you flamed in the public eye (even worse here), its what you don't say.
I actually assumed from the word go that the original poster had their nickers in a twist - due to not being allowed to be a wedding crasher.
I also would find it difficult to allow him to give out anti-ACC in my ACC event. In fact if someone did try and do something like that - I would be downright pissed off.
But the annoying thing here was - YOU DIDN'T SPEAK YOUR MIND.

I have already spoken my mind (and got flamed for it) about how pissed off I am about ACC's misappropriations of funds. But this is aimed at ACC not you (in fact for organising an event of any calibre i think you need an award!).

So speak your mind - If you don't like sods giving out flyers on your event, say so.......I fricken hate people giving me annoying bits of paper all the time. Even if its anti-ACC its still as usefull as a "free gym membership" or "Jesus saves" propaganda i get every day.

I guess from my perspective it was a bit of a gamble to overtly dive in here on this thread.

And I have to admit it's still a bit challenging to show ALL my "cards" so to speak, in terms of my personal opinion.

From just another motorcyclist's perspective it's easy...and I have been doing so assertively with other motorcyclists since the news broke.

From the perspective of a dealer it's a question of weighing what impact my written word(as well as unseen action) will have on my customers and the livelihoods of my staff, and the downstream effects on their families as well as my own.

I hope that doesn't come across as some "holier than thou" attitude or portray me as a want to me martyr......but it's pretty obvious that a motorcyclist who happens to be a dealer appears to be put under a good bit more scrutiny at times than an anonymous motorcylist.

If I was TOO wary of potentially having my every word dissected after the verbal bullets have left the barrel I appologize for it taking so bloody long.......but just sticking my neck out 100% at first, rather than feeling my way through this thread had some real risks based on the initial kneejerk responses.

I'm quite appreciative of the fair shake I have received from a good number of folks here and it has increased my comfort level a good bit.

Cheers...

[lakedaemonian]

You delude yourself if you think that submissions alone will be sufficient to stop the hikes.
If they go ahead,you can kiss any hope of attracting any of the 99% non-riding community to bikes.

I don't believe I posted that I think the ONLY means of attacking this problem is via submissions.

There are a wide variety of ways to attempt to crack this nut as one size most certainly doesn't fit all....hence the many pages to get us to here.

I agree that the higher the ACC levy the greater the risk of a negative impact on sales.

Even though it is probably not in my best interest commercially to say so....I would prefer a levy that is fair which represents our community paying it's own way without subsidy from or towards others who are, or will be, faced with the same impact on their lifestyle.

[Pixie]

Even though it is probably not in my best interest commercially to say so....I would prefer a levy that is fair which represents our community paying it's own way without subsidy from or towards others who are, or will be, faced with the same impact on their lifestyle.

The original concept of ACC was that society as a whole shared the cost.
If user pays is to be advocated,then we want the right to sue to recover our costs.

[Hawkeye]

the original concept of acc was that society as a whole shared the cost.
If user pays is to be advocated,then we want the right to sue to recover our costs.

+1.........

[Rhubarb]

What's happened to CHCH_ZED ???

He 'lit the fuse' but appears to have run away !!!

Meanwhile, LAKEDAEMONIAN has fronted up to everyones scrutiny.

Come one CHCH_ZED, tell us the rest of your side.
One 7 line post isn't enough given the crap that has been thrown at LAKEDAEMONIAN.

[peasea]

I would prefer a levy that is fair which represents our community paying it's own way without subsidy from or towards others who are, or will be, faced with the same impact on their lifestyle.

Me too, so when do we start levying clumsy pedestrians and wayward cyclists? (Did you see those nutters on TV last night, weaving in and out of traffic and riding on the wrong side of the road?)

Oh, and let's not forget rugby players and other sports junkies, the list is endless.

[Winston001]

The original concept of ACC was that society as a whole shared the cost.
If user pays is to be advocated,then we want the right to sue to recover our costs.

Sort of but not exactly. High risk occupations have always paid more ACC. Cars used to pay more ACC than bikes.

There's no "user pays" going on here, just an attempt to rebalance the risk profile. I don't agree with it but can understand the argument.

Overall we still have a scheme where the vast majority of funding is provided by the community.

[James Deuce]

http://kiwiridermagazine.blogspot.com/2009/11/jim-walsh-teeth-of-matter.html

[cowboyz]

What's happened to CHCH_ZED ???

He 'lit the fuse' but appears to have run away !!!

Meanwhile, LAKEDAEMONIAN has fronted up to everyones scrutiny.

Come one CHCH_ZED, tell us the rest of your side.
One 7 line post isn't enough given the crap that has been thrown at LAKEDAEMONIAN.

what exactly do you want him to say?

he said he was there.. handing out pamplets and was asked to stop.

Lakedaemonian agreed thats waht happened. - with a fair ammount of spin doctoring.

meh.... issue has been put out there.
chch_zed has said he want to raise awareness on the acc levies
lakedaemonian has said he wants every biker to put their own submissions and keep the issues away from general non-bikign public and and controversy between his event and sponsers.

Seems to be sorted.
right. end of story.

[Skyryder]

I'm not going to take one side of this as against the other as I was not present.

What I will say................is We are all on the same side on this issue

LET'S NOT FORGET THAT.


Skyryder

[NighthawkNZ]

Sort of but not exactly. High risk occupations have always paid more ACC. Cars used to pay more ACC than bikes.

There's no "user pays" going on here, just an attempt to rebalance the risk profile. I don't agree with it but can understand the argument.

Overall we still have a scheme where the vast majority of funding is provided by the community.

You keep pointing out risk, however, risk was never part of the orginal concept and it shouldn't be... as the founder of ACC said we all benefit from the high risk activities... the only reason ACC notice a chunck like the bikers is due to seperating the accounts... (which only a fraction of the overal claim)

ACC was also never designed to have the smaller seperate accounts and the more of those we have the higher the levy's will be... the bigger the one big main pool is (which is the way it was set up to be, and should be) the easier it is and lower you levies could be...


The sooner ACC goes back to the way it was designed to be the better for all. ACC is not an insurance... and should never be classed as that

[caseye]

Sad to say but in the confirmation of my ACC submission it finishes with joe bloggs "ACC Insurance" in black and white.

[Winston001]

You keep pointing out risk, however, risk was never part of the orginal concept and it shouldn't be... as the founder of ACC said we all benefit from the high risk activities...

LOL yes I keep pointing out risk because it has been part of ACC since 1972. Sir Owen Woodhouse produced a fine report but Parliament didn't accept every single point.

I am not aware of anyone on this forum or elsewhere who has a strong rational argument to remove occupational risk rating for ACC levies. Its accepted as fair and reasonable.

One very good reason is we do not want to encourage employers in dangerous occupations to be careless. If they paid the same levies as for office workers but the claim rate was 6 times as high, that wouldn't be fair.


The sooner ACC goes back to the way it was designed to be the better for all. ACC is not an insurance... and should never be classed as that

Ok but like it or not, ACC is a type of insurance scheme. In the not too distant future there will be far fewer taxpayers upon whom the burden falls. Pay-as-you-go will fail at that point because the workers will refuse to pay the huge sums required.

So - just like saving for your retirement - we need to establish a fund to cover future ACC payments. The Cullen Superfund is exactly the same.

[Silage]

I'm not going to take one side of this as against the other as I was not present.
What I will say................is We are all on the same side on this issue
LET'S NOT FORGET THAT.
Skyryder

I'm with Skyrider here. A lot of thought, effort and emotion has gone into this thread and it seems to have progressed to biker vs biker.

Lakedaemonian, I would like to see a copy of your submission to the ACC committee (if you think that is appropriate). It might help me get off my butt and also write something.

Ohh and I did go to Biketoberfest on Saturday after the protest ride. Talked to a few, bought some chain oil and then home. Looked like something that should be repeated for sure.

[Clockwork]

One very good reason is we do not want to encourage employers in dangerous occupations to be careless. If they paid the same levies as for office workers but the claim rate was 6 times as high, that wouldn't be fair.

Yes but as I understand it, when assessing employers for the levy contributions their "Accident/claim history" is taken into consideration and their individual levy rates adjusted accordingly. Thereby reindtroducing some element of "Fairness" and rewarding the employer for improving their practices.

Do employees in high risk industries pay any more or is their contribution related only to their remuneration rate like everyone else?

[lakedaemonian]

I'm with Skyrider here. A lot of thought, effort and emotion has gone into this thread and it seems to have progressed to biker vs biker.

Lakedaemonian, I would like to see a copy of your submission to the ACC committee (if you think that is appropriate). It might help me get off my butt and also write something.

Ohh and I did go to Biketoberfest on Saturday after the protest ride. Talked to a few, bought some chain oil and then home. Looked like something that should be repeated for sure.

Hi Silage.....I agree...we are in this together.

I'd be happy to share my submission......I think I'd be comfortable to make it public(why not?)....but I might shoot a copy to you and a few others in PM FIRST once I'm finished. Having some folks look it over first will probably find some opportunities to edit/improve.

Thanks for the encouragement on Biketoberfest......lots of points for improvement have already come up and will be covered(along with others I'm sure) next Tuesday!

Cheers,
Chris

[lakedaemonian]

Yes but as I understand it, when assessing employers for the levy contributions their "Accident/claim history" is taken into consideration and their individual levy rates adjusted accordingly. Thereby reindtroducing some element of "Fairness" and rewarding the employer for improving their practices.

Do employees in high risk industries pay any more or is their contribution related only to their remuneration rate like everyone else?

Hi Clockwork, I believe you are correct.

It's my understanding with our ACC work levy that two things are taken into account:

1.) Our work category

2.) Our company accident/safety/ACC claim history

That's my understanding, but I could be off the mark.....but I can assure you it's something I'll be having a closer look at to better understand it as soon as I get the chance.

[Ixion]

Yes but as I understand it, when assessing employers for the levy contributions their "Accident/claim history" is taken into consideration and their individual levy rates adjusted accordingly. Thereby reindtroducing some element of "Fairness" and rewarding the employer for improving their practices.

Do employees in high risk industries pay any more or is their contribution related only to their remuneration rate like everyone else?

Just so. The different industry rates are set in a transparent and contestable fashion. Quite the reverse of the highway robbery approach to motorcyclists. No, employees pay the same rate (deducted from pay) regardless of industry.

[NighthawkNZ]

Just so. The different industry rates are set in a transparent and contestable fashion. Quite the reverse of the highway robbery approach to motorcyclists. No, employees pay the same rate (deducted from pay) regardless of industry.

correct it is just a % in the dollar you earn as an employee, which cover anything you do as a citizen. (yes riding as well)

The employer also pays a fee to help cover any work place accidents, ours last year was around 4g and going up to 5... this is only 3 people that work here full time, and it is so high because we are in the printing industry however we are not with the big printing presses etc, we are pad and screen printers but pay the say levy as the rest of the printing industry...

Its pretty hard to get injuired at on our printers.... sheese

[Pixie]

correct it is just a % in the dollar you earn as an employee, which cover anything you do as a citizen. (yes riding as well)

The employer also pays a fee to help cover any work place accidents, ours last year was around 4g and going up to 5... this is only 3 people that work here full time, and it is so high because we are in the printing industry however we are not with the big printing presses etc, we are pad and screen printers but pay the say levy as the rest of the printing industry...

Its pretty hard to get injuired at on our printers.... sheese

Your boss should look at changing the classification to something like artists etc.

I service automated lab systems.
Being an Electronic Service Technician I would go into the electrical industry classification.
As I don't do any high voltage work,I said to ACC that my work and risk was the same as a lab scientist and they accepted this.
The levy is half that of an electrician.(still too much)

[NighthawkNZ]

Your boss should look at changing the classification to something like artists etc.

We tried and the answer was no, you are classed as printers... we do print on products, like pens etc, but it is no where near as hig risk as a huge printing press...

The most you would get is a cut finger if you do follow the safety guides and if you don't then you glump and should be there... I had a look at our ACC log boog the other day it goes back 15 years and well there was one accident and it was a cut hand... and it turn out that the user wasn't following the safety proceedures...

So how do we put levy's on that... they need to drop all levy's and have one for being human and the more aqccidents you have the more you pay... as there are some people that are just accident prone

[Winston001]

Yes but as I understand it, when assessing employers for the levy contributions their "Accident/claim history" is taken into consideration and their individual levy rates adjusted accordingly. Thereby reindtroducing some element of "Fairness" and rewarding the employer for improving their practices.

Do employees in high risk industries pay any more or is their contribution related only to their remuneration rate like everyone else?

The industry levies vary vastly. The basic white-collar office worker levy is $0.46 per $100 of salary. A forestry worker by contrast costs $6.24 per $100 of salary. That's more than ten times as much - for a high risk job.

Levy booklet in PDF at the bottom of this page http://www.acc.co.nz/for-business/small-medium-and-large-business/what-do-i-pay/BUS00009#P2_451

Yes there is a 10% discount for dangerous industries if there are no claims and the business enters a safety program with ACC. Nice to have but inconsequential.

We need to clarify who makes the payments. These levies are billed to employers and are a cost of having an employee. So the employee will not be aware of the specific cost of their job.

Quite separately, all of us who earn an income pay 0.5c with our tax as our personal contribution to ACC. That is not risk assessed but of course if you earn plenty, you pay plenty which is another unfairness. Why should one person pay more than the next for ACC???

[Ixion]

..
Quite separately, all of us who earn an income pay 0.5c with our tax as our personal contribution to ACC. That is not risk assessed but of course if you earn plenty, you pay plenty which is another unfairness. Why should one person pay more than the next for ACC???

Because if they have an accident and are off work, the weekly ERC compensation they receive will be proportionately greater than the next person.

Earn $1000 per week pay 05% of $1000 per week , recevie ERC of 80% of $1000 per week

Earn $2000 per week pay 05% of $2000 per week , recevie ERC of 80% of $2000 per week

The more you earn, the more you pay, but the more you get. Seems fair enough to me.

[Clockwork]

Let's not also forget that if your're an employer in a high risk industry in many cases you're making your profit at your employees risk not your own!

[Conquiztador]

Hi Silage.....I agree...we are in this together.

I'd be happy to share my submission......I think I'd be comfortable to make it public(why not?)....but I might shoot a copy to you and a few others in PM FIRST once I'm finished. Having some folks look it over first will probably find some opportunities to edit/improve.

Thanks for the encouragement on Biketoberfest......lots of points for improvement have already come up and will be covered(along with others I'm sure) next Tuesday!

Cheers,
Chris

Fuck, your ass must be sore from sitting on that fence.

[Mikkel]

Some days I am so proud to be part of this community. We really should go find an island somewhere and start our "own thing". If it wasn't for the fact that someone else already had cornered the market on torches and pitchforks, that'd be where I'd invest my KB$.

This thread clearly illustrates why you do NOT want to piss off a biker, EVER - he's going to pack a sad and have a whinge on KB, blowing everything out of proportion. Seriously, harden the fuck up - if only a smidgeon!

Anyone who has ever tried organising a largish public event would be able to understand why you do not want to, in any conceivable way, instigate negative emotions amongst a large group (potentially mob) of inebriated people. And that's not just because happy drunk people on motorcycles are preferable to angry drunk people on motorcycles.


The Police have clearly stated that rider training is counter productive. Their "logic" is that confident rider/drivers drive faster and speed kills ergo training kills.

Yes, because squids with no training are fairly reluctant to verify the top speed of their bikes...

...and we all know that the "speed kills" message is at best vague and at worst extremely misguiding. Worst of all, it's a shit-poor excuse for failing to confront the real issue at hand: operator incompetence due to lack of training.


Man what a paragon of patience.

I woulda told 'em to fuck off and mind their own business by now. :woohoo:

You aren't wrong, although patience is a waste of time.

And so is this thread, all of this - the ACC levies most likely as well - will be long gone from everyones memories inside a year. Ever $750 ACC levies not withstanding.


I am not aware of anyone on this forum or elsewhere who has a strong rational argument to remove occupational risk rating for ACC levies. Its accepted as fair and reasonable.

One very good reason is we do not want to encourage employers in dangerous occupations to be careless. If they paid the same levies as for office workers but the claim rate was 6 times as high, that wouldn't be fair.

We've been over this before and either your memory fails you and you didn't respond to my statement:

When considering occupational risks and increased ACC levies, the ACC levy is paid for by the employer, not the employee. What ACC is currently proposing, in regards to motorcycles, is that we disregard who causes the injury but punish the party who suffers the injury. Which is, obviously, a reversal of the logic behind the extraction of work-related ACC levies.

This proposition is patently unfair, and if it goes ahead a lot of people are going to loose a lot of faith in a system which, at the basic level, is a great idea.

That said, we shouldn't loose track of the fact that the proposal can only go ahead with the consent of the politicians. No need banging ACC unnecessarily and most definitely no reason to stir up an atmosphere which will make ACC employees feel threatened by motorcyclists - your average ACC employee won't have a say in this. (That said, by increasing the risk that they are subjected to bodily harm through their occupation we do make their employers (i.e. big kahunas responsible for current proposals) pay a larger ACC levy... and yes, I am just kidding.)

[lakedaemonian]

Lakedaemonian, I would like to see a copy of your submission to the ACC committee (if you think that is appropriate). It might help me get off my butt and also write something.



Here's my first draft........found some good stuff on this forum to blatantly plagiarize.....it might stand a bit more hard quantifiable data....putting this on in good faith, feedback appreciated but please keep it constructive.......

-------

Chris Elles



Rolling Thunder Harley-Davidson

35 Manchester Street

Christchurch 8011



03 353 2424



My name is Chris Elles and I am the Managing Director of Rolling Thunder Motor Co. Ltd., established in 1964 we are one of New Zealand's oldest and largest motorcycle dealerships.

As a member of the New Zealand motorcycling industry; employer of 17 full-time, part-time, and casual staff dependant on a healthy motorcycle industry; commercial partner of many businesses employing many New Zealanders in support of the New Zealand motorcycling industry; and as a life-long motorcycle enthusiast, I believe I am qualified to make this submission.

My desire is to see an ACC compensation system that is firstly and lastly, fair.

I believe that the current effort to inaccurately and crudely ring-fence motorcycle related costs and applying them strictly and unfairly to motorcyclists risks setting a dangerous precedent.

By inaccurately segmenting cost by cause the ACC is breaching it's historical no-fault purpose.

The ACC was founded to compensate the injured, paid by the entire community.

While currently outside the ACC's charter, the many positive impacts motorcycling has on our economy and society need to be included in the decision making process, which include:

Less harmful emissions

Less congestion

Less pollution

Less wear and tear on roading

Less energy consumed

Policies that directly and indirectly have a negative impact on motorcycling risk placing future national energy efficiency and environmental emission targets even further out of reach than they already are.

On the topic of levies and fairness/equity, the proposed system is unfair for the following reasons:

The arbitrary selection of 600cc as an ACC levy cost step unfairly burdens many motorcyclists without any fair and reasonable justification to support it.

The statistical data the ACC has produced is flawed and in desperate need of some impartial perspective.

Multiple vehicle owners are unfairly treated.

Just because ACC is able to data capture and collect some of it's revenue from some segments of some populations like on-road motorcycling, does not make it fair and reasonable to abuse this policy.

By significantly revising the proposed levy increases downwards, the ACC will prevent the many New Zealanders employed by the motorcycling industry from being adversly affected, tens of thousands of New Zealanders will be able to afford to continue motorcycling instead of choosing less palatable transport options, and ALL New Zealanders will benefit from the reduced emissions, reduced pollution, reduced congestion, reduced roading wear and tear, and reduced energy consumption of affordable motorcycling.

Thank you for your consideration of my submission and I strongly encourage ACC to significantly revise the proposed levy increases downwards.

Regards,



Chris Elles

Managing Director

Rolling Thunder Harley-Davidson

[Winston001]

We've been over this before and either your memory fails you and you didn't respond to my statement:

When considering occupational risks and increased ACC levies, the ACC levy is paid for by the employer, not the employee. What ACC is currently proposing, in regards to motorcycles, is that we disregard who causes the injury but punish the party who suffers the injury. Which is, obviously, a reversal of the logic behind the extraction of work-related ACC levies.



I understand your reasoning which is shared by many others here but I suggest its in error. Many people in high risk occupations are self-employed. Farmers. Builders. Spray contractors. Roofers. They pay the high risk ACC levy themselves. As for employees, the risk levy is part of the cost of employment and limits the number of employees. At its most basic, we all bear the cost of the risk levies because they have to be covered in the cost of the job. Too high and there is no job.

It's completely logical to impose a risk premium on motorcyclists. This is not punishment any more than expecting a builder to pay more because he has a higher risk of injury.

I disagee with ACC because I think it is a broad compensation system and the motorvehicle premium should remain flat across all types. My rationale for making the above point is we need to be ready for pro ACC arguments along that line. Always anticipate the opposition. :yes:

[Ixion]

..
While currently outside the ACC's charter, the many positive impacts motorcycling has on our economy and society need to be included in the decision making process, which include:

Less harmful emissions

Less congestion

Less pollution

Less wear and tear on roading

Less energy consumed

Policies that directly and indirectly have a negative impact on motorcycling risk placing future national energy efficiency and environmental emission targets even further out of reach than they already are.

.

Good submission.

Not strictly outside their competence to consider environmental effects

S 300 of the Act says


Public interest



In exercising any functions or powers under this Act or the Crown Entities Act 2004 (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2001/0049/latest/link.aspx?id=DLM329630#DLM329630), the Minister must have regard to the public interest and, in particular, the interests of taxpayers, levy payers, claimants, and potential claimants.

[Mikkel]

I understand your reasoning which is shared by many others here but I suggest its in error. Many people in high risk occupations are self-employed. Farmers. Builders. Spray contractors. Roofers. They pay the high risk ACC levy themselves. As for employees, the risk levy is part of the cost of employment and limits the number of employees. At its most basic, we all bear the cost of the risk levies because they have to be covered in the cost of the job. Too high and there is no job.

Indeed, but as you say we all bear the cost of the risk levies, to some extent, for occupational risk assessment. However, the proposed ACC levy increase goes in the opposite direction - it places the bill firmly (and seemingly without a factual basis on which to support this move) with where the risk is identified, and only there. The only ways in which a motorcyclist can get a "fair" treatment with the proposed increases is to fold or break the law - i.e. sell the bike or choose not to register it.


It's completely logical to impose a risk premium on motorcyclists. This is not punishment any more than expecting a builder to pay more because he has a higher risk of injury.

Except the builder will be able to recoup his expenses in the form of increased cost for his work - which will occur since all builders will be charged the same.
As a result less work will get done, since all building has now become more expensive relative to the rest of the economy.

I can't see how I should be able to cut back $500 in bike related expenses a year without going for cheap tyres and cutting way back on maintenance. I am sure that wouldn't make me less likely to cost ACC money.


I disagee with ACC because I think it is a broad compensation system and the motorvehicle premium should remain flat across all types. My rationale for making the above point is we need to be ready for pro ACC arguments along that line. Always anticipate the opposition. :yes:

We very much agree on that.