How we can win this fight.

[MisterE]

This thread is intended to be a wake-up call. It is my firm belief that our current strategy WILL NOT be enough to change the mind of the current government. The question I have today is do people really believe that bikoi's and submissions are going to be enough for us to get what we want?

Let me start by congratulating the organisers of this weekends Ulysses club rally's held all around New Zealand. It was obvious that a lot of effort had gone into making these events the successes that they were.

What was my primary feeling coming away from the Auckland meet? If this is the best that we can do, Nick Smith will not be losing any sleep at the moment. Let me tell you why...

Were a bit miffed so we're going to hide in the arse end of Manukau and complain about it
This could have been the tagline for this weekend. I couldn't believe it when the main speaker stood up and said that we wouldn't be riding today because there was no benefit for us in annoying the general public. We're bikers for crissakes. Our very existence annoys the general public. How does hiding in the arse end of nowhere complaining about how hard life is get our message across?

And the result of all this hard work? For 3 News, this was a 30 second slot right at the end of the "serious" part of the programming sandwiched between some guy who got lost in his boat and Dracula getting a knighthood. Great effort guys, but it just ain't going to be enough.

Bikoi
Ahhh, the great bikoi. I remember being in Wellington some 15-odd years ago when ACC last shafted us. It was something that will live in my memory forever. What I also remember is how effective it was last time round.

One definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...

Submission them into submission
Submissions are important. They give us the opportunity to fight in the realms of logic and reason. Unfortunately, to be effective, they rely on the government being logical and reasonable. Generally, this only occurs if they feel that there might be some sort of backlash against them. Don't hold your breath.

How we might win

Become a persecuted minority
It worked for gays and blacks and with 50 years of sustained pressure it could work for us as well. The fact is, people don't like us. Anyone who has even heard of the movie Easy Rider knows that bikers are all outlaws and druggies.

About the only way we could achieve this in the timeframe available is by doing what someone else suggested on this forum - See if the UN will accept that these levies are against the human rights charter as it unfairly disadvantages a minority.

Chance of success? Dunno. There might be someone out there who knows how to do this but it ain't me.

Spread FUD
FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. This is probably our best chance to win the hearts and minds of NZ. We are the thin end of the wedge. Next time, they'll be coming for you. How effective would it be for a leading NZ cyclist to stand up at the WLG bikoi and explain why bikes will be next?

Chance of success? High if we can get our message across. Unfortunately, we are failing miserably on this at the moment.

Direct action
As above. You can't send a message if nobody is listening. The 3 News coverage of this weekends rally's clearly showed that people still aren't interested. We need to follow the lead of the truckers and start organising events that people will notice.

Chance of success? High if we can sustain it.

Don't pay
Remember TV licences? They disappeared because people just didn't pay. This is by far the most effective action we could take if and when the time comes but we need to start promoting that now. The government needs to actually believe that they will end up losing revenue rather than find out after the fact.

Chance of success? No brainer if we can do it.

So that's my rant for the day. Again, I am not attacking anyone here. From what I can see, there are a lot of people working very hard to get this decision overturned. My concern is that we simply aren't doing anywhere near enough to make a difference and, worse, we are avoiding some very obvious opportunities to make our point. Either we up the ante or we get ready for another royal reaming.

[bogan]

Your name is really close to that of MisterD, pity you posts arent up to his standard. You have overlooked one of the major points behind this whole campaign, the gubbermint is using bullshit stats, confronting the gubbermint to make them look like idiots should have some effect, enlighting the public of the statistical errors should have good effect, getting the public offside by snarling up traffic is not a good idea. Taking away votes and support from national is the way to get this idea overturned, the Greens and Labour are already on our side, I'd say we are making good progress so far, and we havent even got to the massive Bikeoi yet!

[Drogen Omen]

i think a better protest would be if every biker drove a car in to parliament...

imagine if every biker switched to their car. what would happen to the traffic flow and parking...? there is already not enough parking in NZ city's.

that way everyone could see what would happen if we could no longer afford to register our big bikes.

all us bikers should be receiving a carbon credit that we can use to cancel out the ACC levies as we are all riding rain or shine doing our part for the environment. we take up lest parking space's, we use less petrol, we use less oil and expel a fraction of the exhaust fumes....

[JohnR]

i think a better protest would be if every biker drove a car in to parliament...

imagine if every biker switched to their car. what would happen to the traffic flow and parking...? there is already not enough parking in NZ city's.

that way everyone could see what would happen if we could no longer afford to register our big bikes.

all us bikers should be receiving a carbon credit that we can use to cancel out the ACC levies as we are all riding rain or shine doing our part for the environment. we take up lest parking space's, we use less petrol, we use less oil and expel a fraction of the exhaust fumes....

Unfortunately for us the Government's perception (and they are trying to convince the general populace) is that motorcycling is predominantly a recreation/hobby in NZ. A dangerous one at that!

The truth is that while many use their bikes for recreation, a large number also use them for both commuting and fun. While the recreation/hobby myth is strong the threat of more cars on the road doesn't hold up because if we are not riding our bikes for fun we will take up needlepoint or tiddlywinks!

[MisterE]

Your name is really close to that of MisterD, pity you posts arent up to his standard.

Get over it :) I've used Mister E for a while now. Not gonna change.


You have overlooked one of the major points behind this whole campaign, the gubbermint is using bullshit stats, confronting the gubbermint to make them look like idiots should have some effect, enlighting the public of the statistical errors should have good effect

Nope, haven't overlooked this fact. It's covered indirectly in the "become a persecuted minority" section. We are being persecuted unfairly and the facts bear that out. Our challenge now is to find someone who cares.


getting the public offside by snarling up traffic is not a good idea. Taking away votes and support from national is the way to get this idea overturned, the Greens and Labour are already on our side, I'd say we are making good progress so far, and we havent even got to the massive Bikeoi yet!

- We're bikers. We are offside with the public by default.

- The Greens and Labour will support us by default just because it was National that thought of it. Vice versa if Labour was in power.

- As far as progress goes, IMO the court of public opinion ranges from "about time" to "who cares"

If we were to draw a line in the sand. For me, success would be ACC levies for motorcyclists not increasing any more than any other group. If, by progress, you mean that we eventually manage to negotiate down the the final levy increase or avoid the split by CC I'd suggest you are looking at the wrong end game. They'll just hit us with progressively higher and higher increases year on year until they eventually tax us out of existence.

[kave]

Personally I am happy with the current approach. Of course if the Levy actually does get raised (as I unfortunately suspect it will) I will be keen to switch protesting methods from non-disruptive to as disruptive as is humanly possible. Block the harbour bridge etc... sounds like a good plan to me, but first we should give the level-headed amongst us a chance to try their way.

[bogan]

Get over it :) I've used Mister E for a while now. Not gonna change.

just calls em how i see's em :innocent:



Nope, haven't overlooked this fact. It's covered indirectly in the "become a persecuted minority" section. We are being persecuted unfairly and the facts bear that out. Our challenge now is to find someone who cares.


Ideally make all the voting public care, they wont care if we piss them off.




- We're bikers. We are offside with the public by default.

- The Greens and Labour will support us by default just because it was National that thought of it. Vice versa if Labour was in power.

- As far as progress goes, IMO the court of public opinion ranges from "about time" to "who cares"

If we were to draw a line in the sand. For me, success would be ACC levies for motorcyclists not increasing any more than any other group. If, by progress, you mean that we eventually manage to negotiate down the the final levy increase or avoid the split by CC I'd suggest you are looking at the wrong end game. They'll just hit us with progressively higher and higher increases year on year until they eventually tax us out of existence.

I dont think we are off side with the public, some members dont like us too much, i reckon most are 'on the fence' now is as good as time as any to convert them! And as Kave said, we can always be arsehols later if they push the proposal through anyway, cant hurt to give the nice guys thing a go first.

Labour was not on our side from day one, they have sided with us recently, I like to think its because of our persuasive arguments rather than just for the sake of opposing national.

Success is as you say, an increase proportional to the other road users, progress, is anything thatll help us achieve that goal.

They may try and increase them again, but the strength of the upcoming bikeoi will hopfully dissuade them from doing it anytime soon :wari:

[YellowDog]

just calls em how i see's em :innocent:



Ideally make all the voting public care, they wont care if we piss them off.



I dont think we are off side with the public, some members dont like us too much, i reckon most are 'on the fence' now is as good as time as any to convert them! And as Kave said, we can always be arsehols later if they push the proposal through anyway, cant hurt to give the nice guys thing a go first.

Labour was not on our side from day one, they have sided with us recently, I like to think its because of our persuasive arguments rather than just for the sake of opposing national.

Success is as you say, an increase proportional to the other road users, progress, is anything thatll help us achieve that goal.

They may try and increase them again, but the strength of the upcoming bikeoi will hopfully dissuade them from doing it anytime soon :wari:
There has to be a fine line here. If we piss off the public, then they will be glad to see us priced off the road.

Most I have spoken to agree it is unfair.

IMHO - We need to present logical and statistically base arguaments to parliament and also the media.

The document I saw from Phil Gough was a major step in the right direction.

Whether you like him or not, he is a good speaker and able to push the right argument in front of those that matter.

We need to focus on getting the winning arguament right.

95% of motorcycle accidents are the fault of car drivers is not the winning argument.

[jafar]

What everyone will have to get their heads around is that this is only the beginning, we won't change anyones mind least of all ACC's or Nick Smiths if we let this protest go the same way as the cheese cutter protests. On that we started ok & then let it die. We cannot afford to do that with the ACC protests.

[dpex]

This thread is intended to be a wake-up call. It is my firm belief that our current strategy WILL NOT be enough to change the mind of the current government. The question I have today is do people really believe that bikoi's and submissions are going to be enough for us to get what we want?

Let me start by congratulating the organisers of this weekends Ulysses club rally's held all around New Zealand. It was obvious that a lot of effort had gone into making these events the successes that they were.

What was my primary feeling coming away from the Auckland meet? If this is the best that we can do, Nick Smith will not be losing any sleep at the moment. Let me tell you why...

Were a bit miffed so we're going to hide in the arse end of Manukau and complain about it
This could have been the tagline for this weekend. I couldn't believe it when the main speaker stood up and said that we wouldn't be riding today because there was no benefit for us in annoying the general public. We're bikers for crissakes. Our very existence annoys the general public. How does hiding in the arse end of nowhere complaining about how hard life is get our message across?

And the result of all this hard work? For 3 News, this was a 30 second slot right at the end of the "serious" part of the programming sandwiched between some guy who got lost in his boat and Dracula getting a knighthood. Great effort guys, but it just ain't going to be enough.

Bikoi
Ahhh, the great bikoi. I remember being in Wellington some 15-odd years ago when ACC last shafted us. It was something that will live in my memory forever. What I also remember is how effective it was last time round.

One definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...

Submission them into submission
Submissions are important. They give us the opportunity to fight in the realms of logic and reason. Unfortunately, to be effective, they rely on the government being logical and reasonable. Generally, this only occurs if they feel that there might be some sort of backlash against them. Don't hold your breath.

How we might win

Become a persecuted minority
It worked for gays and blacks and with 50 years of sustained pressure it could work for us as well. The fact is, people don't like us. Anyone who has even heard of the movie Easy Rider knows that bikers are all outlaws and druggies.

About the only way we could achieve this in the timeframe available is by doing what someone else suggested on this forum - See if the UN will accept that these levies are against the human rights charter as it unfairly disadvantages a minority.

Chance of success? Dunno. There might be someone out there who knows how to do this but it ain't me.

Spread FUD
FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. This is probably our best chance to win the hearts and minds of NZ. We are the thin end of the wedge. Next time, they'll be coming for you. How effective would it be for a leading NZ cyclist to stand up at the WLG bikoi and explain why bikes will be next?

Chance of success? High if we can get our message across. Unfortunately, we are failing miserably on this at the moment.

Direct action
As above. You can't send a message if nobody is listening. The 3 News coverage of this weekends rally's clearly showed that people still aren't interested. We need to follow the lead of the truckers and start organising events that people will notice.

Chance of success? High if we can sustain it.

Don't pay
Remember TV licences? They disappeared because people just didn't pay. This is by far the most effective action we could take if and when the time comes but we need to start promoting that now. The government needs to actually believe that they will end up losing revenue rather than find out after the fact.

Chance of success? No brainer if we can do it.

So that's my rant for the day. Again, I am not attacking anyone here. From what I can see, there are a lot of people working very hard to get this decision overturned. My concern is that we simply aren't doing anywhere near enough to make a difference and, worse, we are avoiding some very obvious opportunities to make our point. Either we up the ante or we get ready for another royal reaming.

Yours is a damned good post. Clear, concise, and on the nail-head.

The FUD idea. I agree entirely. It will take a whole lot more than petitions and Bikois to move Smith off his perch. He's made a stand and he's the man....as he sees it. Backing down will cost him serious face....the emphasis being on the word serious. So loosing serious face will only occur when a more serious cause arises. FUD.

To this end, the point I have striven to make on the site is, it is not just bikers being put upon. Motorists are also being required to pay an increased levy. Why? Of the $24 billion in claims last year, ALL registered road-users (ergo ACC extra levy payers) accounted for $480 million! That's less than one fifth of one percent of all ACC payouts. So why are MOTORISTS be tormented.

It is my contention that we need to get MOTORISTS all of them, protesting about subsidizing the other 99.8% of claimants.

You're right about FUD. We need to get a campaign going which tells MOTORISTS they are already being ripped off and that it's going to get worse.

As regards the 'image' of bikers, as Frosty pointed out. TV delighted in panning all the hairy-Sirs, dressed in Ulysses et al patches, sunnys, and looking mean. That's the perception the public have of bikers, and TV is going all out to perpetuate that myth.

So we need women (preferably looking great but at least having a full set of teeth and clean hair). Mothers of four, account exces, spunkies, out front.

Fpr example. Anyone know how to contact Sandra, the Italian or Spanish Diana who is a regular racer? Her as a lead-role would be good.

Then we need images of clean-cut, ordinary folk riding bikes. Those who do it for the green aspect and time-saving aspect.

At the moment the motoring public see...and to a large extent, justifiably...bikers as a bunch of hairy hoons, dressed in leathers, out there to scare the shit out of concerned mothers of five.

And so, bringing all that together, we need to get the MOTORISTS to understand they're being ripped off. And we need a way sweeter image for bikers.

Goff is a biker...see my post of his reply to me. Maybe we set up a modest protest ride and invite him as guest speaker. He's pretty willing to get 'any' mileage at the moment.

That gets the TV interested. Then they see 40/100/200 pick a number, clean-cut bikers all putting the same message. Ergo, 'It's not just us. It's ALL registered road users being ripped off by this cynical government.

Then set that off against the fact that cyclists (a widely disliked group using the roads) pay nothing yet use the roads. 'Is that fair?' 'NO!' we howl.

What about getting Stroudy and Shirrifs (BTW Craig did a record run at Taupo on Sunday...Man that lad can ride), et al at such a modest rally. Stroudy's a serious Christian with seven kids. He's a clean-cut, amazingly gentle fellow (off the track).

There's doctors (everybody trusts doctors) who ride bikes, and the doctors might have to raise their charges to help pay the extra levy, or go back to using a car. Teachers (a few trust teachers) who ride bikes.

You're right, mate. FUD is where it's at. The question is, who will start and run such a campaign? Who, here, knows how to run such a campaign?

But that's the sort of campaign we need. And then when that fails, then we get serious and start blocking the motorways till something gives.

[twotyred]

i would like to add all motorcyclists who care about this issue to let the Govt. know that they will not vote for them next time after this shafting... and mean it!...
chance of success?... low,amongst the predominately rightwing,"senior" motorcycling fraternity that is biking today

[ICE180]

British Authorites are discussing a change in cival law that would make the most powerfull vechile in any crash liable for insurance and compensation.
A car hitting a bike would automatically be at fault, in a move desgined to ENCROUAGE people to get out of cages

[Genestho]

It's as basic as having a plan beyond bikois and submissions.

Sustained, calm, allied, and more importantly - prepared to realise things don't happen or change overnight. :yes:

[mattian]

Your name is really close to that of MisterD, pity you posts arent up to his standard.

Do you mean, like that time he tried to somewhat justify Tony Veitch's assaults against Kirsten Dunne-Powell??

'A pretty successful revenge attack by "her" all in all.... '

"Whispers suggest that the victim is no angel either...rabbit stew anyone?"

" I honestly don't know - it appears that there's much that we don't know about this case and I suspect that the victim's wish that the whole story not come out in court has a lot to do with the negotiated outcome.

I don't know how I'd react if an ex of mine was threatening my wife and then let themselves into my house... "

[RavenR44]

Thoughtful contribution, summed up below.

"The question is, who will start and run such a campaign? Who, here, knows how to run such a campaign?"

The truth is that the advertising/PR industry has a wealth of talent, and if the folks I do business with are any indication, there's a significant empathy with the biker community. After all, a lot of us are bikers, past bikers, or bikers-to-be.

So that answers your question. What this campaign needs is for the cause to challenge the egos of the talents that are already out there - bikers are a very soft target and because of that, it's absolutely not a given that our anti ACC campaign will succeed. Which actually makes it a no-brainer to interest those talented egoists that make up the ad/PR industry.

So, talk to them. Some of them are right here (like me). And others are simply five eighths of fu¢k all degrees associated from we bikers. Time for an email blitz to potential brilliant communicators, via the KB database then, OK?

It's not rocket science bikers and bikettes - it's about using the enormously talented, 'pro bono' ad/PR people with that total sense of adventure and invincibility they will muster at the drop of a hat to take on the government-bound and enormously talented-but-severely-controlled talent their mega-budgets can muster.

And we'll win.

Because we have sod-all to lose by trying and they have everything to lose by trying.

So, have at it folks. Get your advertising and PR buddies out of bed on this really exciting issue and let them loose. They'll love you for it.

And for the record, I'm in!

Cheers,
Andy.