ACC should be looking at people-movers

[Max Headroom]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed the emerging phenomenon of people-movers in recent years. I've considered them as road-lice for as long as I can remember, but lately their increasing appearance in road accident statistics is become a big concern. Most are based on commercial vans with little more than extra seats & carpet, and are popular for large families. They are ideal for the school run, but are woefully inadequate on many of our rural roads and are potentially lethal in the hands of inexperienced drivers.

The fact that there is no special licence requirements to drive one, nor any special WOF procedures to own one is something which both LTSA and ACC should be considering IMHO. The number of these vehicles featuring in single-vehicle accidents is an increasing concern, along with the potential for killing up to 11 people in one hit yet with only one ACC levy to cover injuries. Few of these vehicles have anywhere near adequate crumple zones to protect front or rear passengers, and few have anything like the cabin strength of even a medium-sized car.

Since ACC seem to have an excess of time on their hands, here's a worthwhile cause for them to pursue . . . .

[vifferman]

Burn them! and all that...

[FROSTY]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed the emerging phenomenon of people-movers in recent years. I've considered them as road-lice for as long as I can remember, but lately their increasing appearance in road accident statistics is become a big concern. Most are based on commercial vans with little more than extra seats & carpet, and are popular for large families. They are ideal for the school run, but are woefully inadequate on many of our rural roads and are potentially lethal in the hands of inexperienced drivers.
What rock have you been hiding under? its not a EMERGING at all --Those box vans are decreasing in number thanks to aunty helen

[The Stranger]

What rock have you been hiding under? its not a EMERGING at all --Those box vans are decreasing in number thanks to aunty helen

But he does raise an interesting point.
Cages have the capacity to generate significantly more claims per unit that we do. A single cage with 4 occupants may generate 100k (at the average claim for cars of about 25k) worth of claims yet they pay significanlyt less than us, who may generate 1 or at most 2 20k claims.

[avgas]

And some are full of shit.....

Let me just re-quote you
"Let me talk to you about a vehicle I have no idea about. Its quite ugly, so much so I have given it a nickname. I have seen it in crashes - therefore it must be bad. I will never drive one, and have never been in one....I propose that I ban something I have no idea about.
ACC ban this thing I know nothing about, as I guess using the power of estimation and the internet that it is a bad thing."

Next time you feel like spinning BS on here answer me these questions 3:
- What is the crumple zone of a bike?
- How many people have died in MPV's?
- What are their saftey ratings in comparison to any other cars? bikes?

Its knobs like you who work for ACC and state the most dangerous things on the road are motorbikes. I don't like MPV's but I know for a fact they are using driven by people who are not as dangerous as "young workers in diesel utes..." or "blind office workers in small run abouts..."

[FROSTY]

But he does raise an interesting point.
Cages have the capacity to generate significantly more claims per unit that we do. A single cage with 4 occupants may generate 100k (at the average claim for cars of about 25k) worth of claims yet they pay significanlyt less than us, who may generate 1 or at most 2 20k claims.
Sorry mate his point loses impact purely due to his "facts" being incorrect.
Something those involved in the ACC campaighn need to be VERY careful oF. Like a staffy in bite mode the press will focus on ONE incorrect "fact

[RC1]

The fact that there is no special licence requirements to drive one, .

yes you do need a licence, and since were on the car bashing wagon, what about remuera tractors, most of those reqire a ht licence bein so heavy how many soccor mums have them without an ht ??

[Ixion]

I always understood that the casualty rate for forward control vans (which i assume these are) was much worse than other four wheelers?

[MSTRS]

The OP needs to clarify...does he mean Passenger Vans or People Movers? They are two very different types.
In the event of either type having a head-on, I know which one I'd rather be in the front of.

[Max Headroom]

Actually, neither of the vehicles you've mentioned have the capacity of a 12-seat minivan, and both have crumple-zones. And considering the potential these vehicles have to maim up to a dozen people in a single-vehicle accident yet only attract the same ACC levy as a small car, this is clearly outside the ACC's stated intention of applying User Pays.

I have (reluctantly & briefly) owned and driven an 11-seat minivan in the past. The handling characteristics when empty are quite different to how they handle when full of people and gear, and I believe that they require skills to operate which are beyond many drivers, particularly on country roads at open road speeds due to the high centre of gravity. That's the environment where they regularly get into strife.

There have been three people-movers involved in single-vehicle accidents in the last six weeks, causing as many deaths as cellphones have in the last three years. Those three accidents alone have generated ACC claims worth six figures based on average ACC costs.

If you're comfortable with that AVGAS, that's fine. If you want to get personal instead of offering constructive criticism, go ahead. That approach seems fairly typical of kiwibiker contributors. i have never, and could never work for a government department or anything remotely resembling one. I can't follow your reference to diesel utes and small runabouts, nor does much of your other content add up to much of value. Let me paraphrase the essense of your post: "I disagree".

Motorcycles can't injure or kill a dozen people in a single vehicle accident but a minivan can, and it requires less red tape to obtain a licence to drive a minivan than the red tape to ride a motorcycle.






And some are full of shit.....

Let me just re-quote you
"Let me talk to you about a vehicle I have no idea about. Its quite ugly, so much so I have given it a nickname. I have seen it in crashes - therefore it must be bad. I will never drive one, and have never been in one....I propose that I ban something I have no idea about.
ACC ban this thing I know nothing about, as I guess using the power of estimation and the internet that it is a bad thing."

Next time you feel like spinning BS on here answer me these questions 3:
- What is the crumple zone of a bike?
- How many people have died in MPV's?
- What are their saftey ratings in comparison to any other cars? bikes?

Its knobs like you who work for ACC and state the most dangerous things on the road are motorbikes. I don't like MPV's but I know for a fact they are using driven by people who are not as dangerous as "young workers in diesel utes..." or "blind office workers in small run abouts..."

[mashman]

Motorcycles can't injure or kill a dozen people in a single vehicle accident but a minivan can, and it requires less red tape to obtain a licence to drive a minivan than the red tape to ride a motorcycle.

The can if they crash into said minivan!!! I drive one of these MPV things you're talking about. I feel safer in it than i do in a car that can accelerate at least twice as fast... The high centre of gravity doesn't come into it unless you're raggin the ass of the thing and going around corners on 2 wheels (no ideal when your family is in the car)...

I find the whole argument a moot point... no matter what the vehicle is (see Tour of Southland) injuries are a part of road life!!! Singling any vehicle type out is pointless as next year noone may crash an MPV or a motorbike or any vehicle for that matter... In fact, if there are no crashes next year, does our ACC fall... or would that just be luck!!! see, pointless

[Max Headroom]

I always understood that the casualty rate for forward control vans (which i assume these are) was much worse than other four wheelers?

Yep, they are.

I bought a business almost five years ago, and there were two delivery vans included with the chattels. One was a Toyota Hiace, and the other was a Mazda E1800. I ditched both of them as soon as I could afford to, and replaced them with european vans with extended noses.

I resent my knees being part of the crumple zone . . . .

[The Pastor]

but they are great at taking bikes to the track, and fising gear down the beach!

[scumdog]

but they are great at taking bikes to the track, and fising gear down the beach!

You fis??:gob::blink:

[MSTRS]

T or H...you choose.

[scumdog]

T or H...you choose.

If he picks T I ain't goin' anywhere near him:bye:

[brendonjw]

Just a few figures on the matter (now i dont know if the OP was including SUV's in his orignal post but they are one of my pet peevs as well as vehicles driving round the cities with bull bars on) these are just some i found quickly while at work

http://journals.pepublishing.com/content/506625w730517ph5/
"11.5 per cent of pedestrians struck by large sport utility vehicles (SUVs) are killed, compared with 4.5 per cent of pedestrians struck by passenger cars. The design of the vehicle front-end structure has a substantial influence on injury outcome when pedestrians are struck by vehicles."

http://www.mrtraffic.com/suv.htm
"Statistics showed that if a small cars weighting less than 2,500 pounds is stuck in the side by a SUV, occupants of the car are 47 times more likely to die. By comparison, when a car hits another auto in the side there are six deaths in the car being hit for every one in the striking vehicle."

[The Pastor]

You fis??:gob::blink:
dont you?

[Ixion]

I ain't up on cages.

I see two sorts around. Some are called things like Mazda Bongo. They are obviously forward control vans with some seats in the back

others are called things like Estimas and look like station wagons with a serious obesity problem.

Which sort are we talking about?

[MSTRS]

If he picks T I ain't goin' anywhere near him:bye:

Especially not in the wee small hours, and you not in full uniform. ("Truncheon" in hand doesn't count)

[Max Headroom]

I ain't up on cages.

I see two sorts around. Some are called things like Mazda Bongo. They are obviously forward control vans with some seats in the back

others are called things like Estimas and look like station wagons with a serious obesity problem.

Which sort are we talking about?


Both.

At least two of the recent accidents I referred to in my original post involved Toyota Estimas. The Mazda Bongo is another popular variation which is based on a commercial van, a task for which they are adequate. Adding seats & bodies lifts the CoG substantially.

[avgas]

I resent my knees being part of the crumple zone . . . .
Watch where that clutch and brake pedals go in an accident buddy - unless you happened to buy one of the 4 in Europe with an above 3 star safety rating....

[avgas]

Max has brought up a good point though. People such as himself can drive such large vehicles - and feel they are not in control of the vehicle.
Should there be a testing system to see if people can control such large moving objects.
Obviously it is not working very well - as he can still drive these death traps

[Max Headroom]

Max has brought up a good point though. People such as himself can drive such large vehicles - and feel they are not in control of the vehicle.
Should there be a testing system to see if people can control such large moving objects.
Obviously it is not working very well - as he can still drive these death traps



I can only presume you're not yet old enough to vote. Come back when you've grown up, sonny.



Based on your contribution thus far, could be a while . . . . .

[mashman]

Obviously it is not working very well - as he can still drive these death traps

snigger!!!

Max, you're applying exactly the same logic in your argument that ACC are using against motorbikes... i.e. that because you ride/drive vehicle X you are X% more likely to come a cropper... doesn't mean it's going to happen and you still have exactly the same 50/50 chance of an accident today that you did yesterday irrespective of the vehicle that you're driving/riding... throw in any other factor you choose, rain, ice, anything and you've still got a 50/50 chance of having an accident... that's just my take though!!!

[avgas]

I can only presume you're not yet old enough to vote. Come back when you've grown up, sonny.
Based on your contribution thus far, could be a while . . . . .
No not at all Mr spokesperson to coke in the 80's......
Likewise I could make the same claim to you - you seem to forget who is in charge of safety in regards to vehicles.....
it is ironically not a govt department.

[peasea]

Burn them! and all that...

Do witches travel in them?

[avgas]

Do witches travel in them?
Depends if the divorce goes well ;)

[martybabe]

Sorry mate his point loses impact purely due to his "facts" being incorrect.
Something those involved in the ACC campaighn need to be VERY careful oF. Like a staffy in bite mode the press will focus on ONE incorrect "fact


They're against staffys too :gob:

OK, anybody wanna buy a 1400cc motorbike, a people mover and a Staffy dog, I'll have nothing left to play with soon. :confused::laugh:

[FROSTY]

max PLEASE getcha facts straight. The most recent crash (this weekend ) wasn't a people mover it was a commercial type van.
Theres a big difference between a Hiace/bongo/l200/caravan VAN and the toyota previa/L300 spacegear et al.
In one case in an accident indeed the drivers legs are toast whereas the others have crumple zones like a car.
But then if you apply your logic then all commercial vans should also be banned.

[The Stranger]

I ain't up on cages.

I see two sorts around. Some are called things like Mazda Bongo. They are obviously forward control vans with some seats in the back

others are called things like Estimas and look like station wagons with a serious obesity problem.

Which sort are we talking about?

Even better, the ever popular Enima (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Toyota/auction-212077739.htm)

[Max Headroom]

snigger!!!

Max, you're applying exactly the same logic in your argument that ACC are using against motorbikes... i.e. that because you ride/drive vehicle X you are X% more likely to come a cropper... doesn't mean it's going to happen and you still have exactly the same 50/50 chance of an accident today that you did yesterday irrespective of the vehicle that you're driving/riding... throw in any other factor you choose, rain, ice, anything and you've still got a 50/50 chance of having an accident... that's just my take though!!!

You've figured it out. The entire basis for ACC's planned levy changes are illogical, and will no doubt be badly executed. My suggestion carries about as much merit as ACC's motorcycle levy increase, with the sole difference that it'll never happen.

For some inexplicable reason the public perception of motorcycles is that accidents and injuries are inevitable, yet the same public view car accidents as merely tragic events that only happen to other people. On average, five people die every week in car accidents in NZ, yet I've never encountered anyone who has sold their car or refused to travel in one because they are too dangerous.

[mashman]

You've figured it out. The entire basis for ACC's planned levy changes are illogical, and will no doubt be badly executed. My suggestion carries about as much merit as ACC's motorcycle levy increase, with the sole difference that it'll never happen.

For some inexplicable reason the public perception of motorcycles is that accidents and injuries are inevitable, yet the same public view car accidents as merely tragic events that only happen to other people. On average, five people die every week in car accidents in NZ, yet I've never encountered anyone who has sold their car or refused to travel in one because they are too dangerous.

Do i get a prize... 10 years free ACC would be noice!!!

[mashman]

Even better, the ever popular Enima (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Toyota/auction-212077739.htm)

they're just a pain in the arse aren't they :innocent:

[The Stranger]

So how do you spell "vindicated (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10608994)" people?