Getting PUBLIC sympathy

[FROSTY]

Folks I'm reading through this entire ACC thing and I can't see anyone talking about getting support from non bikers.
it seems to me that the pollys are gonna do what they concider the best thing for MOST of the population. They want to be voted in next time.
lets face it most people dont give a fat rats arse about bikers and even (as I heard this am on the radio) its getting irritating.
from non bikers the feeling is than we are whining about nowt.
so getting the rest of the population on side I think is pretty important.

[cheshirecat]

Folks I'm reading through this entire ACC thing and I can't see anyone talking about getting support from non bikers.
it seems to me that the pollys are gonna do what they concider the best thing for MOST of the population. They want to be voted in next time.
lets face it most people dont give a fat rats arse about bikers and even (as I heard this am on the radio) its getting irritating.
from non bikers the feeling is than we are whining about nowt.
so getting the rest of the population on side I think is pretty important.
Absolutely.
Many cars owners don't realise their levies go up significantly based on the same statistical shortcommings

We should highlite the fact we don't mind a reasonable increase based on real world stats and that we are highliting their rates as well.

see MTA news article (http://www.mta.org.nz/n1312.html) on this

[Mully]

Anecdotally, we have a lot of support from the general public. I think that's why ACC are shitting themselves; they thought they were going to get big support by saying that cars are subsidising bikes, and it's bitten them in the arse.

I've had people approach me at servos saying that they aren't a biker, but they see it's unfair.

Most of them haven't realised that they are going to get pinged too - the AA has been noticably silent on this.

[NighthawkNZ]

We should highlite the fact we don't mind a reasonable increase based on real world stats and that we are highliting their rates as well.




no increase is needed infact it should be the say for all motorised vehicles on the road... simply levying on risk for one group goes against the principles of ACC itself

[k2w3]

That's what makes it so funny (if weren't so tragic). The fact that if ACC had put up the levies by a reasonable amount, they'd end up collecting more money for a whole lot less hassle than what all this is bringing (and will bring).

[retro asian]

I think car drivers don't realise that they have the potential to become bikers one day... (say one of us gives them a ride and they instantly become hooked).

When they go to buy their first bike, then they'll realise how annoying the huge ACC levies are.

[ManDownUnder]

Yup, put up ACC on all older cars too, and graduate the fees by car size. Smallest should pay the highest price because the occupants are more likey to be injured in an accident etc (we'd need the number to back it up of course).

... because I personally, driving my SUV, am sick of cross subsidising them. I've had my license 6 months, I'm told I'm doing really well, I'll have my full license soon and I know I'm a good driver.

[R6_kid]

We need to be seen as fighting the changes to the fundamental values of ACC - from no fault to user pays. People need to realise that we are just the first in a line of changes and that once we've let them ram this one through there's no guessing who will be next.

As you've said, the general public most likely couldn't care less about motorcyclists, and from the mouth of the government they've been getting told they are subsidising us and 'that's not fair'. They don't care that the maths doesn't work, they don't care that we are going to be charged unjustifiably high amounts to use our chosen mode of transport. They care that they don't have to pay for us, and that we are going to be paying for ourselves - all the while missing the one thing underpinning the change in legislation: To make ACC user pays.

[StoneY]

Yup, put up ACC on all older cars too, and graduate the fees by car size. Smallest should pay the highest price because the occupants are more likey to be injured in an accident etc (we'd need the number to back it up of course).

... because I personally, driving my SUV, am sick of cross subsidising them. I've had my license 6 months, I'm told I'm doing really well, I'll have my full license soon and I know I'm a good driver.

Your SUV hurts more peole because it so big and solid, with no 'crush buffer' zones in its construction design
Theyre also more prone to rolling than a car is
They also seriously injure MORE motorcyclists than any other vehicle in bike vs accidents
Im sick of SUVs with HUGE blind spots due to shit mirrors and ignoramnt bulletproof drivers who know theyre a TANK pushing me off the freaking road (happened 3x in 4 years so far, to SUV's alone)

Ive had my license 25 years on Novemeber 17th (sat it on my 15th birtday)
I have clocked up millions of KM's (was a truckie for many years)

I say tax SUV's off the road, and as an ex professional road user, I say my opinion counts.

That an SUV pays the same as a Mini is ridiculous, especially when we the motorcyclists are being targeted

[Ixion]

OK. I just found something in a doc (http://www.acc.co.nz/PRD_EXT_CSMP/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=37241&dDocName=PRD_CTRB118230&allowInterrupt=1)motorbyclist found

We may have some allies!

According to this ACC are proposing to raise truck levies by $300 !

From $302 to $585.

I wonder how many truckies are aware of this

I think we will start pushing this point. That we are not just protesting for ourselves that other people are in ACC sights.

[FROSTY]

Hey look all you whingy whiney nasty smelly BIKIES. Either pay up and go ride yer bikes or get rid of em.
You lot cost a lot more when you just have a little crash so why should I pay to fix you all up??
I don't give a shit--and why should I ?--It doesn't affect me.
Actually I'm really quite glad you are being made to pay. Racing past me oun your high powered and noisy death machines.
Besides who cares about whats fair. if you pay more it means I don't have to.


Clearly not my opinion but one expressed recently

[Trudes]

I was just talking to my Osteopath, he sees many many ACC cases through his door, and he was saying just how pathetic he thinks the whole thing is and immediately started talking about cyclists and rugby player accidents. My boss was saying much the same thing. I think there are probably a lot of "general public" out there who agree with us, however because they do not have a vested interest, they don't feel the need to leap up and down about it. To me it's a bit like hundreds of people being killed in an earthquake in Taiwan, do we really care more than to say "well, that's sad, poor things" unless it happened to someone you know or in your backyard.

[duckonin]

Those within the public I have spoken with support the bikers, and why shouldn't they?, not everyone thinks we are dirty smelly bikers, that is a misconception some bikers want the rest to believe..

The ave age of those that ride motorcycles is increasing most have been riding or driving for many years, WE are ALL getting older..:yes:

[riffer]

Okay, I'm reading the document. Here's the relevant bit for cars, trucks, etc...

<img src=http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=150021&d=1257463664>

Now I may be reading this wrong but it looks to me like they are proposing a 9.9c levy per litre on petrol (not diesel). This means that the trucks would have to pay $585.84 instead of $302.32 they pay now (an increase of $283.52), or nearly doubling what they pay.

But what surprises me is that cars will pay $104.26 more to relicence their petrol vehicles.

I thought they said it was only about $30? And let's not discuss the petrol levy too...

Do I have it wrong? Cause it looks like it's a lot more than they say it will be...

[MSTRS]

Not private cars. I reckon it's taxis etc....vehicles for passenger transport.

[White trash]

I've had people approach me at servos saying that they aren't a biker,

You're hardly a biker if people feel comfortable approaching you at the servo

[ManDownUnder]

Your SUV hurts more peole because it so big and solid, with no 'crush buffer' zones in its construction design
Theyre also more prone to rolling than a car is
They also seriously injure MORE motorcyclists than any other vehicle in bike vs accidents
Im sick of SUVs with HUGE blind spots due to shit mirrors and ignoramnt bulletproof drivers who know theyre a TANK pushing me off the freaking road (happened 3x in 4 years so far, to SUV's alone)

Ive had my license 25 years on Novemeber 17th (sat it on my 15th birtday)
I have clocked up millions of KM's (was a truckie for many years)

I say tax SUV's off the road, and as an ex professional road user, I say my opinion counts.

That an SUV pays the same as a Mini is ridiculous, especially when we the motorcyclists are being targeted

... my point exactly

[ManDownUnder]

You're hardly a biker if people feel comfortable approaching you at the servo

I'm fine with it now I own a Honda. Especially if they approach from behind

[Ixion]

Okay, I'm reading the document. Here's the relevant bit for cars, trucks, etc...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=150021&d=1257463664

Now I may be reading this wrong but it looks to me like they are proposing a 9.9c levy per litre on petrol (not diesel). This means that the trucks would have to pay $585.84 instead of $302.32 they pay now (an increase of $283.52), or nearly doubling what they pay.

But what surprises me is that cars will pay $104.26 more to relicence their petrol vehicles.

I thought they said it was only about $30? And let's not discuss the petrol levy too...

Do I have it wrong? Cause it looks like it's a lot more than they say it will be...

No you have it right


Diesel trucks go up $280. Diesel cars go up $110.

the $30 figure is what the Nickster promised to cut it back to for private cars. Those figures are the actuall ACC proposal

[Mully]

Not private cars. I reckon it's taxis etc....vehicles for passenger transport.

They generally call them "passenger service vehicles". I think that's normal everyday cages.


You're hardly a biker if people feel comfortable approaching you at the servo

Good point.

I'll headbutt the next fucker that comes near me at the servo.

[NighthawkNZ]

I'll headbutt the next fucker that comes near me at the servo.

carefully he could be a bigger badder biker... in his cage for what ever reason... yah just never know

[XP@]

We also need to be seen to be safe.

Being 'good'
I am trying (it's not easy) to behave especially in heavy traffic. I don't want to be seen to be doing anything "unsafe". So my lanesplitting has been taken down a level or three, I am also trying to keep both hands on the bars (most of the time) and other playing about is totally minimised. - This mornings ride in was really calm and quiet.


Wearing the gear
I stepped out at lunch to pickup my new rain suit. On my way back from the bike shop I came across a scooter rider wearing jandels, skirt & nylons and her chin strap was done up but so loose i am sure that she never bothered to undo it. I calmly pointed out that she should be a dressed a little bit more appropriatly. I nearly gave her the much louder "If you don't care about being a F'ing ugly bitch with roadrash all over your face and a limp because your feet have been cut in two..." line but the lights changed and well... I think her ipod was up too loud anyway.

[Kiwi Graham]

Frosty is sort of right.

Whilst we are defending our objection to the levy increase for bikes based on the true figures as we see it, we should be including the increases proposed across the board for other vehicles and potential other levy cash cows of the future ie cyclists, competative sports men/women etc when we make statements.

I have experienced alot of 'non biking' public support from neighbours, work collegues even a dude in a van at the lights has said "I feel sorry for you guys, it aint fair"

[FastBikeGear]

OK. I just found something in a doc (http://www.acc.co.nz/PRD_EXT_CSMP/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=37241&dDocName=PRD_CTRB118230&allowInterrupt=1)motorbyclist found

We may have some allies!

According to this ACC are proposing to raise truck levies by $300 !

From $302 to $585.

I wonder how many truckies are aware of this

I think we will start pushing this point. That we are not just protesting for ourselves that other people are in ACC sights.

Let's invite the truckies along on the 17th as well.

[FastBikeGear]

No you have it right


Diesel trucks go up $280. Diesel cars go up $110.

the $30 figure is what the Nickster promised to cut it back to for private cars. Those figures are the actuall ACC proposal

Ixion, thanks for pointing this out you b@st@rd!

I am so lucky I sold one of my motorbikes on Tuesday as I also have a diessel van, a diesel bus(motorhome) and two cars!

And just wait until I have to pay ACC levies on each of my push bikes.

Is there anyone charitable out there that would be happy to start up a soup kitchen and collection for me or post me a razor!

[Mr. Peanut]

Firstly I'm worried about the door in the face technique here. It's when you present people with a completely unreasonable request, i.e. the proposed hikes. Then later ask for a smaller amount, making it seem like they've done you a favour.

Could this be what they're trying for?

Secondly, the classification of motorcycles by capacity is positively Aristotlian. Does National think a larger motorcycle will bin faster than a smaller one?

It would be more scientific to tax the rider according to his mass, technically heavier bikers would come off worse in an accident, the size of the motorcycle is irrelevant as they as seperated in a crash.

[Big Dave]

There will always be those who want us to pay so they don't have to. (But we know the operative word is 'yet')

But the one thing your Garden Variety Kiwi can't abide is discrimination.
They'll even stop Rugby because of it.

If we can prove and convince them that we are being discriminated against we will win most neutral's support.

[Ixion]

Firstly I'm worried about the door in the face technique here. It's when you present people with a completely unreasonable request, i.e. the proposed hikes. Then later ask for a smaller amount, making it seem like they've done you a favour.

Could this be what they're trying for?

..


Of course.

[FastBikeGear]

I rode past the Auckland University today. There were hundreds and hundreds of bikes and scooters, parked in Symonds Street and the adjacent streets. Crammed into every space nook and cranny. I am surprised some of them haven't worked out that it is feasible (and free) to hang them from the trees in Symmonds street yet.

Question:
If just a small proportion of these students work out it's more econmomical to buy, maintain and run second hand small jap car, where will they park them all?

Answer:
In car drivers parking spaces.

Queston:
What will car drivers think of National and ACC planning then?

Answer:
I don't know but maybe Nick Smith can tell us if we ask?


P.S. I am going to start importing block and tackles

[Ixion]

There are probably twice as many parked internally within the University grounds. And many more still parked in the Owen G Arsehole Building. Plus the AUT carpark - in St Pauls St (I think)

[PrincessBandit]

It would be an interesting exercise to (for someone who has all the time in the world :whistle:)* count up all the bikes and scooters on the Auckland city campus; plus those that inhabit the "cage" and dead spaces in city carparks. Then point out that all those riders would be bringing that many cars into the CBD alone and see how that would logistically work in our dear city.

Car drivers would surely have their sympathy increased if they thought their parking spaces would become even scarcer if all these bikes and scoots were priced off the road.


*I'll try to do it next week.

[Pixie]

The OAP bikers in Mangawhai will be pissed - they all own campers

[BMWST?]

Yup, put up ACC on all older cars too, and graduate the fees by car size. Smallest should pay the highest price because the occupants are more likey to be injured in an accident etc (we'd need the number to back it up of course).

... because I personally, driving my SUV, am sick of cross subsidising them. I've had my license 6 months, I'm told I'm doing really well, I'll have my full license soon and I know I'm a good driver.

it might be the opposite...SUVs have their own achilles heels and could be considered more dangereous than the average cars...

[FastBikeGear]

Car drivers would surely have their sympathy increased if they thought their parking spaces would become even scarcer if all these bikes and scoots were priced off the road.



Great idea. We need to keep our integrity. It is likely that only a portion of thes bikes will be priced off the roads. The extra ACC levy costs will be offset by cheaper second hand bikes for a period.

Maybe only 10-25% of those bikes that currently park in the CBD will be priced off the road. I am guessing Auckland City Council will only have to find an extra 1000 car parks.

Other effects are that we can expect the cost of car parking will increase (supply Vs demand).

No doubt some of these people will turn to public transport and cycles. As Cyclists are 30 times more likely to be injured than car drivers (Report released by Wellington Regional council last week) this could further load ACC.

[Mully]

.
Maybe only 10-25% of those bikes that currently park in the CBD will be priced off the road. I am guessing Auckland City Council will only have to find an extra 1000 car parks.

Other effects are that we can expect the cost of car parking will increase (supply Vs demand).


There's also the number of additional cars clogging up the motorways.

As an unhappy, reluctant user of Auckland's laughable public transport system last week, I would dare to suggest that a 25% conversion (off two wheels) would seriously fuck Auckland's transport up.

[ZephyrMark2]

OK. I just found something in a doc (http://www.acc.co.nz/PRD_EXT_CSMP/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=37241&dDocName=PRD_CTRB118230&allowInterrupt=1)motorbyclist found

We may have some allies!

According to this ACC are proposing to raise truck levies by $300 !

From $302 to $585.

I wonder how many truckies are aware of this

I think we will start pushing this point. That we are not just protesting for ourselves that other people are in ACC sights.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

LOVE IT!!!!

Look.... the accounting standards have cost ACC $2.6b in 5 years!!! and taking into account (no pun intended) that the international financial reporting standards kicked in 2007 to all govt departments, they have really spent up large!

Mark

[SARGE]

Hey look all you whingy whiney nasty smelly BIKIES. Either pay up and go ride yer bikes or get rid of em.
You lot cost a lot more when you just have a little crash so why should I pay to fix you all up??
I don't give a shit--and why should I ?--It doesn't affect me.
Actually I'm really quite glad you are being made to pay. Racing past me oun your high powered and noisy death machines.
Besides who cares about whats fair. if you pay more it means I don't have to.


Clearly not my opinion but one expressed recently

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."

[Naki Rat]

Due to my mugshot featuring on the front page of the local paper and on Stuff, as a result of the Naki Bikeoi, I have been recognised as being a protesting biker in every shop/servo/whatever I have entered this week.

Without exception the many comments I have received have been positive towards us in respect to the unfairness of motorcyclists' victimisation in this issue. I believe we have the sympathy of a large part of the general population and it takes little or no prompting to get comments that match much of the discussion that is occurring on KB. "ACC needs a shake up", "cyclists/sports should or will pay their share" and the "well behaved tone of motorcycle ACC protests" are all common themes.

So long as we don't have any serious mishaps or behaviour during the upcoming protests we should maintain or improve this level of support to our advantage :yes:

[Naki Rat]

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."

First they came for the rape victims,
I remained silent;
I was not a rape victim.

When they fined up the criminals,
I remained silent;
I was not a criminal.

When they levied the bikers,
I did not speak out;
I was not a biker.

When they prosecuted the unregistered,
I remained silent;
My bike was registered.

Now they are coming for the ???
Oh shit !!!

[Robert Taylor]

Hey look all you whingy whiney nasty smelly BIKIES. Either pay up and go ride yer bikes or get rid of em.
You lot cost a lot more when you just have a little crash so why should I pay to fix you all up??
I don't give a shit--and why should I ?--It doesn't affect me.
Actually I'm really quite glad you are being made to pay. Racing past me oun your high powered and noisy death machines.
Besides who cares about whats fair. if you pay more it means I don't have to.


Clearly not my opinion but one expressed recently

The reality is that is how a lot of car drivers will think just that. Why?
I drive a car and to be quite frank a LOT of motorcyclists dont do the image of motorcycling any good at all. Im not saying that as an anti motorcyclist ( I support calls to repeal the proposed levy hikes ) I am just stating what is a real problem for motorcyclings image, that in part is why motorcyclists get picked on ( most of them law abiding and respectable )
When I saw a bunch of Coal Scuttle helmeted Hells Angels ride through NP on their excessively noisy motorcycles just last weekend I can just imagine what a lot of non motorcyclists were thinking. I certainly found the spectacle, the disrepectful statement to our forefathers and noise very disturbing.

[FROSTY]

The reality is that is how a lot of car drivers will think just that. Why?
I drive a car and to be quite frank a LOT of motorcyclists dont do the image of motorcycling any good at all.
That was the point i was making in the last thread i created in here.
The issue as I see it is that theres not enough "normal" people concerned about this issue. maybee theres a little sympathy but not enough to be bothered about it. again ALL bikies are the same arent they?? When asked for a mental image of bikers most people i asked had an imageof the "gang" from the movie Road hogs

[davereid]

That was the point i was making in the last thread i created in here.
The issue as I see it is that theres not enough "normal" people concerned about this issue. maybee theres a little sympathy but not enough to be bothered about it. again ALL bikies are the same arent they?? When asked for a mental image of bikers most people i asked had an imageof the "gang" from the movie Road hogs


Maybe once it was like that. But now, everyone knows a "nice guy" who rides a bike.

Everyone has an uncle, a brother, a mother or a mate at work who rides.

Thats one of the reasons ACC didnt get traction here, they miss understood who they were targeting. It turned out to be middle New Zealand, and its hurting them.

Plus, the "you cost more" argument is deeply flawed. In countries that consider your liability for an accident, motorcycles are cheap to insure.

Its not that motorcyclists crash less in those places, or cost less to patch up.

Its because we dont cost them lots for injures to others.

When a liability based personal injury insurer covers a car, he is covering the car occupants (up to 12 of them in a van), plus all the occupants of the van it might crash into. That not the case with a motorcycle, one maybe two people to cover, very very rarely more.

And of course, the insurer knows that in 2/3rds of collisions, the biker will not be liable.

This is how I point out that actually, bikers subsidise cars, not the other way around.

[duckonin]

That was the point i was making in the last thread i created in here.
The issue as I see it is that theres not enough "normal" people concerned about this issue. maybee theres a little sympathy but not enough to be bothered about it. again ALL bikies are the same arent they?? When asked for a mental image of bikers most people i asked had an imageof the "gang" from the movie Road hogs

But which "gang," the old ones or the young ones ?:innocent:

[FROSTY]

But which "gang," the old ones or the young ones ?:innocent:
Either or really--either A) fringe of society dole bludgers sellin drugs to our kids OR a bunch of accountants and suchlike who can bloody well afford to pay extra.

[swbarnett]

... from the movie Road hogs
I take it you mean "Wild Hogs"?

John Travolta, Tim allen, Will H. Macy, Martin Lawrence and Ray Liotta?