The 600 to 450 conversion

[Wingnut]

Was thinking about these after watching and listening to one on saturday. If someone was curious as to how their 600 bike would run, by removing a lead to one cylinder to simulate what sort of power you might be looking at, be a stupid idea? Would this have any perminant damaging effect to the motor by doing so?

Obviously there will be a few hp less than if you were to have the full "Ozzy 450" thing done but would you be getting a reasonable idea of what you would be in for?

Now for all you "Mechanical Gods" out there, don't flog me for my lack of knowledge or ignorance - this is a genuine question.

Also is there others that are having a crack at this other than Mr Osborne?

[wharfy]

At the very least I think you would need to remove the spark plug as well so there would be no compression on the dead cylinder.
I guess it would give some sort of idea, but I am not any sort of automotive engineer :)

[phoenixgtr]

The injector/carb will still be pumping fuel into that cylinder...not a good idea

[k14]

I certain wouldn't be pulling out a spark plug, you'll have a big mess not to mention all the fuel going all over your bike. Possibly easiest would be to disconnect spark plug lead and also unplug the injector for that cylinder. Stops any fuel going through, probably could end up backfiring if you let unburn fuel out into manifold. If that is done it is pretty much the same as an Ozzy 450 apart from higher compression on the dead cylinder.

[SWERVE]

The 450/600 yamaha running at ruapuna at the weekend was converted by someone else (not Mr osbourne).
it was a slightly different set up (hence the slight smoking) but never the less VERY impressive. And it sounded AWESOME too.
Does anybody know who the builder was as i would like to contact him...... also would like to speak to Chris Osbourne too if anyone has a contact for him also.
Spoke to the rider briefly but it was a hectic day for me so didnt get the chance to talk more.
Comn K14 we wanna see you out again mate.

[tri boy]

"Mr Mental Trousars to the white courtesy phone. Paging Mr Trousars":innocent:

[k14]

Comn K14 we wanna see you out again mate.
Yeah yeah tell me about it!! Still over 2 weeks to wait :bash: then its 3 weekends in a row :wari:

[gav]

Ohhh I thought maybe the racing was clashing with your golf prowess these days? :innocent:

[DerekP]

The 450/600 yamaha running at ruapuna at the weekend was converted by someone else (not Mr osbourne).
it was a slightly different set up (hence the slight smoking) but never the less VERY impressive. And it sounded AWESOME too.
Does anybody know who the builder was as i would like to contact him...... also would like to speak to Chris Osbourne too if anyone has a contact for him also.
Spoke to the rider briefly but it was a hectic day for me so didnt get the chance to talk more.
Comn K14 we wanna see you out again mate.

Hi Swerve - Any idea what the set up differances are? Especially to cause it to smoke!?! I assume it was a blue oil smoke.... One would imagine oil is coming down the valve guides of the redundant cylinder, landing on the piston and being sprayed into the airbox where it is being burnt by the other cylinders...
How did it go compared to the SVs?

[Quasievil]

"Mr Mental Trousars to the white courtesy phone. Paging Mr Trousars":innocent:


he is at the Beach, my understanding on how you do it based on Mental Trousers approach, was stand around drinking piss whilst watching a more experienced person doing the work ..........accurate Mr Triboy ??
so thats all thats needed a box of piss and a willing mate


Nothing to it !

[puddytat]

That modified R6 hauled ass I thought,sounded so wierd that I briefly thought "whats a crossplane R1 doing in F3":confused:
Twas running at the front of the field most of the time I thought.

[Ozzy27]

Was thinking about these after watching and listening to one on saturday. If someone was curious as to how their 600 bike would run, by removing a lead to one cylinder to simulate what sort of power you might be looking at, be a stupid idea? Would this have any perminant damaging effect to the motor by doing so?

Obviously there will be a few hp less than if you were to have the full "Ozzy 450" thing done but would you be getting a reasonable idea of what you would be in for?

Now for all you "Mechanical Gods" out there, don't flog me for my lack of knowledge or ignorance - this is a genuine question.

Also is there others that are having a crack at this other than Mr Osborne?

Hi,
The rumour is there are a few variations on the 450 theme being thought up around the country. This is bloody Great!! I cant wait to see them all on track.
As to just taking off a plug lead. the pumping loss would be huge and I suspect it would strugle to make 60hp. Refer to the attached Dyno Graph. The main difference is the exhaust valves were still in on the lower one making the pumping loss a lot more so with the cylinder still completely sealed it would be a lot higher.
If you didn't disconect the fuel injector I suspect the whole thing would go up in flames at some point when all the unburnt fuel goes up in the air box.
Cheers:scooter:
Ozzy

[tri boy]

my understanding on how you do it based on Mental Trousers approach, was stand around drinking piss whilst watching a more experienced person doing the work ..........accurate Mr Triboy ??



Nothing to it !

He says he has photo's of me, a bearded female dwarf, and 3 geese.:pinch:

[Ozzy27]

Just a note for Those who are interested the 450 was at ruapuna last weekend back as a 600 proving the final step in my concept as a great steeping stone for some one 1 bike 2 seasons 2 diff classes Just a little bit of eng work and your great handling F3 bike becomes a Great First 600.
(ps he was 1st 600 in 2 of the senior races just got caught in the other one).
It is going to stay as a 600 for a while as a spare bike for nationals, Then I will decide if I will put it back to a 450 for me to club race or might try an R6 myself.

[lostinflyz]

that 450/600 r6 was rather fast, esp considering he started off the back in most racers.

whoever's it was i hope they sort the smoking thing out though, as for alot of people it was a major put off while racing, racing into a cloud of blue smoke assuming a massive oil patch in front of you.

[Wingnut]

Hi,
The rumour is there are a few variations on the 450 theme being thought up around the country. This is bloody Great!! I cant wait to see them all on track.
As to just taking off a plug lead. the pumping loss would be huge and I suspect it would strugle to make 60hp. Refer to the attached Dyno Graph. The main difference is the exhaust valves were still in on the lower one making the pumping loss a lot more so with the cylinder still completely sealed it would be a lot higher.
If you didn't disconect the fuel injector I suspect the whole thing would go up in flames at some point when all the unburnt fuel goes up in the air box.
Cheers:scooter:
Ozzy

Cheers for that info - it makes sense when its spelt out for me :bash: - cheers.

[Wingnut]

that 450/600 r6 was rather fast, esp considering he started off the back in most racers.

whoever's it was i hope they sort the smoking thing out though, as for alot of people it was a major put off while racing, racing into a cloud of blue smoke assuming a massive oil patch in front of you.

For sure - and you wouldn't wanna scratch your new paint job eh..... :yes:

[lostinflyz]

For sure - and you wouldn't wanna scratch your new paint job eh..... :yes:

i need no help scratching paint jobs.

[FROSTY]

In my perfect lil dream world I had an image of rocking on up to a meeting on my K8 gixxer600. doing F2 qualifying then flicking a switch to turn off the injector to number 2 and bingo IM ON A 450 TRIPLE FOR f3.

[Dom]

The 450/600 yamaha running at ruapuna at the weekend was converted by someone else (not Mr osbourne).
it was a slightly different set up (hence the slight smoking) but never the less VERY impressive. And it sounded AWESOME too.
Does anybody know who the builder was as i would like to contact him...... also would like to speak to Chris Osbourne too if anyone has a contact for him also.
Spoke to the rider briefly but it was a hectic day for me so didnt get the chance to talk more.
Comn K14 we wanna see you out again mate.

The R6 that was running as a 450 was built by Neil Smith of Blenheim and ridden by Marty Wood. That was the first time it been on the track and seemed to be running ok out of the box.

[steve74]

ahhhh, i wondered why neils sv650 was on trademe so soon after kicking ass in f3 in greymouth. sly old dog!!!

[wayne]

was going better and more laps than some 600's there........eh dom

[nsrpaul]

That modified R6 hauled ass I thought,sounded so wierd that I briefly thought "whats a crossplane R1 doing in F3":confused:
Twas running at the front of the field most of the time I thought.

thats cause it was a wood:gob:

[SWERVE]

I believe the smoking issue was something to do with the way in which they had allowed any fumes/gasses/compression etc to bleed back into the crankcase.
marty told me that this was the first time it had turned a whel and the smoke issue was going to be addressed..saw them talking to Chris O (so probebly sorted already)
Bloody impressive things these 450/triples. The concept of having a bike you can develop in F3 (and win) then re-convert it back to a 600 (and win..eh chris/sketchy) is genius. No having to change to a different bike/set-up etc.....just dial the power back in and go.
Think i will just fit some sleeves........ 3x RG150 pistons in my 675 and bingo another one..........ONLY JOKING BEFORE YOU ALL START TYPING :calm:

[SWERVE]

Hey FROSTY
Of coarse you wouldn,t wont touch that switch while racing in F3 (would ya)
LOL:Oops:

[Ivan]

Hey FROSTY
Of coarse you wouldn,t wont touch that switch while racing in F3 (would ya)
LOL:Oops:

hahah hadnt thought of that till you said that then

[Dom]

was going better and more laps than some 600's there........eh dom

yea, Saturday sucked. Got to get that flat battery fixed

[Sparky Bills]

The more I read about these 450's the more I like them!
Would love to have a spin on one. The idea is just what F3 needs.

[Mental Trousers]

he is at the Beach, my understanding on how you do it based on Mental Trousers approach, was stand around drinking piss whilst watching a more experienced person doing the work ..........accurate Mr Triboy ??
so thats all thats needed a box of piss and a willing mate


Nothing to it !

Don't knock what works eh!!


He says he has photo's of me, a bearded female dwarf, and 3 geese.:pinch:

... and they're safely stashed where only I can find them.

I picked up a Triumph TT600 that had dropped a valve. Seemed perfectly logical to me to rebuild it as a 450/3. Only problem looks to be the airflow needed so that there aren't any pumping losses. This looks to the single biggest problem as I got a complete, spare head with the bike so I'm not worried about welding up valve guides etc.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/blog.php?u=3535

[quickbuck]

The more I read about these 450's the more I like them!
Would love to have a spin on one. The idea is just what F3 needs.

Bloody hell, not you too!
How is somebody supposed to win F3 on a 20 year old bike if all this modern kit keeps turning up!!!!

[roadracingoldfart]

Bloody hell, not you too!
How is somebody supposed to win F3 on a 20 year old bike if all this modern kit keeps turning up!!!!



Turbo's , methanol , a sniper at the hairpin . ..... just think clearer man.

[codgyoleracer]

Turbo's , methanol , a sniper at the hairpin . ..... just think clearer man.

That sniper better be good bro..........<_<

[roadracingoldfart]

That sniper better be good bro..........<_<


Hehehehehehe That, young man is half the fun , all the test rounds to freak you out.

[Wingnut]

So back to the point.

Removal of compression rings - remove exhaust valves - block valve guides - disable injector - disable sparkplug.

Quite keen to give this a go - am I missing anything???

Any one with any genuine info on the subject please PM me. Cheers

[FROSTY]

wn--give chris osborn a yell he's not secretive about the basic job

[Mental Trousers]

So back to the point.

Removal of compression rings - remove exhaust valves - block valve guides - disable injector - disable sparkplug.

Quite keen to give this a go - am I missing anything???

Any one with any genuine info on the subject please PM me. Cheers

From the tests we've done having just the exhaust open doesn't flow enough and you lose a good chunk of horsepower. Also, if there's an oxygen sensor on the exhaust side it may get funny readings.

You'll need to figure out what to do with the fuelling (I've got spare injectors so I'll hook up a 5th one that isn't attached to the fuel rail so the computer thinks all 4 are still working) and most bikes seem to barf errors all day if you leave the spark plug lead off.

[Wingnut]

Hey Mental, Cheers for the info.

I have a race ECU fitted so it will be a matter of wait and see re. what electronic errors are showing. So you have removed all valves then?

[CookMySock]

um, scuse the newb question, but why do this? Does it put you in a 450cc class or something?

Steve

[Wingnut]

By disabling one cylinder it enables you to run in Formula 3 with all the benefits of running a well setup late model 600. Once you have had enough of competing in this class, there is also the added bonus of being able to restore it to its original configuration of 4 cylinders and run in the 600 class.

[k14]

You'll need to figure out what to do with the fuelling (I've got spare injectors so I'll hook up a 5th one that isn't attached to the fuel rail so the computer thinks all 4 are still working) and most bikes seem to barf errors all day if you leave the spark plug lead off.
Don't bother, the solenoids in the injector need something to cool them down (fuel flowing through works well) so they will go puff fairly quickly. The only way you could do it is if you are a electronics wizz and know what the ecu needs to see to not throw an error code. Alternately you could work out a way in the ecu to turn the injector off, unlikely though.

[Mental Trousers]

Don't bother, the solenoids in the injector need something to cool them down (fuel flowing through works well) so they will go puff fairly quickly. The only way you could do it is if you are a electronics wizz and know what the ecu needs to see to not throw an error code. Alternately you could work out a way in the ecu to turn the injector off, unlikely though.

Ah, cheers for that.

The Triumph's run the Sagem ECU so it's fully tunable. All you have to do is buy the TuneBoy software, which I've ordered and I'm waiting for it. Once that turns up I'll be able to disable the 4th injector and spark :headbang:

[DerekP]

Don't bother, the solenoids in the injector need something to cool them down (fuel flowing through works well) so they will go puff fairly quickly. The only way you could do it is if you are a electronics wizz and know what the ecu needs to see to not throw an error code. Alternately you could work out a way in the ecu to turn the injector off, unlikely though.

I run a 5th injector in my Honda as the thing wouldn't start due to the error code. I thought the same thing, re overheating, but have done 5 meetings on it without it frying itself yet (touch wood). I put it in a snaplock bag as I was concerned about dirt jamming the injector open and frying solenoid; - and the plastic bag still looked good after approx 50 laps of Teretonga during run in, no melting of plastic.

[Ivan]

quick question how many of you guys are running them now?

And how many differnt configurations have been used?

Im thinking of when its time to upgrade the kwaka that itl be sweet for this mod Its really made the market for old 600s attractive

[916Senna]

Why not just fit another injector to the fuel tank and switch between the two. the spark can remain on perminantly as no damage will occcur to the plug piston etc. .. the switch can than determine the capacity 450/600 and the ECU will not know the difference.

[Wingnut]

Why not just fit another injector to the fuel tank and switch between the two. the spark can remain on perminantly as no damage will occcur to the plug piston etc. .. the switch can than determine the capacity 450/600 and the ECU will not know the difference.

Or install a node instead of an injector perhaps??

[k14]

Why not just fit another injector to the fuel tank and switch between the two. the spark can remain on perminantly as no damage will occcur to the plug piston etc. .. the switch can than determine the capacity 450/600 and the ECU will not know the difference.
Or just do what everyone else has done and unplug the injectors... takes about um less than it took me to do this post :yes: