Single Flat Rate ACC Levy per road user?

[FastBikeGear]

There is a lot of consensus on Kiwi Biker about what we need to do and how we need to go about it. The more we discuss it the more consensus we seem to be reaching.

I am not sure that we have reached a strong consensus though on what we want. Do we want?


The status quo? No changes in current ACC rates (Current pre-proposal different rates for different road user risk groups)
The same % increase for all road user groups on the current rate?
A change to a single ACC levy per road user regardless of the number of vehicles they own? (They just pay the premium for the highest risk group they are in)
A change to a Single Flat Rate ACC Levy per road user? (Regardles of risk group)
An insurance style premium which is a fair and true assessment of the risk we present?
Complete privatisation of ACC coverage for road users?
Increases in motor vehicle rates in relation to motobikes rates commensurate with the fact that they actually present more danger and risk to us than vice versa
Something else?


Perhaps a bit of open discussion on this and then a poll to see what consensus we have?

[Ixion]

MANIFESTO says , abolition of the separate motorcycle classification (for ACC purposes). So, we end up exactly the same as cars.

As a second objective, the methods of collection, for both cars and bikes could be improved.

[MSTRS]

The status quo? No changes in current ACC rates (Current different rates for different road user risk groups) Pre-proposed rises?
The same % increase for all road user groups on the current rate? Would support
A change to a single ACC levy per road user regardless of the number of vehicles they own? (They just pay the premium for the highest risk group they are in) Not so sure now. Leaves us open to current abusive levy rise
A change to a Single Flat Rate ACC Levy per road user? (Regardles of risk group) Would support this
An insurance style premium which is a fair and true assessment of the risk we present? Nope
Complete privatisation of ACC coverage for road users?Nope
Increases in motor vehicle rates in relation to motorbikes rates commensurate with the fact that they actually present more danger and risk to us than vice versa Nope
Something else? Maybe funded from fuel.



Good idea. Although should we really be doing 'their job for them'?

[Rayray401]

[QUOTE=MSTRS;1129508233]Something else? Maybe funded from fuel.QUOTE]

Nooo, dont tax the fuel anymore?

[StoneY]

[QUOTE=MSTRS;1129508233]Something else? Maybe funded from fuel.QUOTE]

Nooo, dont tax the fuel anymore?

Why not???
Coveres every Petrol/Diesel user, fairly too based on consumption. Be it a Chain Saw, a Concrete cutter, generaotor on a builders site, consumption = exact recovery of risk via use

And EQUITABLY at that
Other such levys could be: 10% of value on safety gear (potentially this would be not good but has been suggested), levy tyres (get the user on a per km basis that way) Bikes would by default pay a little more if on tyres as we use em faster than a cage does

Many options, but Fuel is a good one IMO

[NighthawkNZ]

Something else?

100% Levy on traffic infringements,
$50 levy when you buy a vehicle paid on change of ownership,
$5 levy on WoF, 6moths, $10 for a year.

these alone would generate more than enough money for the traffic account, nearing 800million dollars (at present the traffic account is 650ish million)

Put token levy on vehicle rego even across the board.

Rejoin all the accounts ACC was designed to operate with the seperate accounts




Why not???

While in theory it sounds good and easy, doing this during a recession is not good as it will increase the cost of living, price of food goes up, transport cost rise and all gets past on to the consumer who hasn't had a pay rise in 2 years.

[StoneY]

Nighthawke, thats brilliant

You run that past John judge????

[MSTRS]

While in theory it sounds good and easy, doing this during a recession is not good as it will increase the cost of living, price of food goes up, transport cost rise and all gets past on to the consumer who hasn't had a pay rise in 2 years.

I've heard this bandied about. But why would it? It's simply moving a cost to industry and the individual from here to there. The actual cost outlay would change little, if at all.

[NighthawkNZ]

Nighthawke, thats brilliant

You run that past John judge????

was in my submission

[FastBikeGear]

100% Levy on traffic infringements,
$50 levy when you buy a vehicle paid on change of ownership,
$5 levy on WoF, 6moths, $10 for a year.


The less points we collect ACC from and the simpler it is the cheaper it is to administer. I wonder what percentage of ACC's revenue is consumed by the administration of collecting it?

[NighthawkNZ]

I've heard this bandied about. But why would it? It's simply moving a cost to industry and the individual from here to there. The actual cost outlay would change little, if at all.

We simply don't have the population, our rail network is crap and 90% is done by road.

Simple business if you want to transport a load from Dunedin to Auckland then you pass on all costs to the consumer. While many of the fuel increases have been absorbed by the transport company but if you put a large increase on a levy that is also taxed by GST then they simple have increase their prices to transport.

Which in turn increases your end product price... while may only be a little effect, NZ doesn't have the population and we are so issolated that it can effect us. During a recession as well its not a good thing... the best time to do that is when the country is doing well.

[MSTRS]

We simply don't have the population, our rail network is crap and 90% is done by road.

Simple business if you want to transport a load from Dunedin to Auckland then you pass on all costs to the consumer. While many of the fuel increases have been absorbed by the transport company but if you put a large increase on a levy that is also taxed by GST then they simple have increase their prices to transport.

Which in turn increases your end product price... while may only be a little effect, NZ doesn't have the population and we are so issolated that it can effect us. During a recession as well its not a good thing... the best time to do that is when the country is doing well.

Forgive me for being stupid, but I still can't see it.
ACC is currently gathered from reg and petrol/diesel. If you move the reg component (even + a bit) to fuel, what's the real difference?

[NighthawkNZ]

The less points we collect ACC from and the simpler it is the cheaper it is to administer. I wonder what percentage of ACC's revenue is consumed by the administration of collecting it?

It all goes to treasuray anyway. If treasurary can't keep the books in order when all the money comes in get a new accountant.

;)

[Pixie]

100% Levy on traffic infringements,
$50 levy when you buy a vehicle paid on change of ownership,
$5 levy on WoF, 6moths, $10 for a year.

these alone would generate more than enough money for the traffic account, nearing 800million dollars (at present the traffic account is 650ish million)

Put token levy on vehicle rego even across the board.

Rejoin all the accounts ACC was designed to operate with the seperate accounts


None of these things will help ACC get sold to IAG

[Marmoot]

What we should have is single flat rate ACC levy per NZ citizenship/residency.

That way cyclists, horse riders, and rugby players are levied too.
Also including prone-to-fall elderlies.

Flat rate ensures a no-fault and non user-pays system (i.e., ACC not being an insurance scheme).

[NighthawkNZ]

None of these things will help ACC get sold to IAG

i know that and I don't want it sold if implimented makes it harder to sell

ithe traffic account does get sold then they will have to drop the levy on fuel as it is

What we should have is single flat rate ACC levy per NZ citizenship/residency.

That way cyclists, horse riders, and rugby players are levied too.
Also including prone-to-fall elderlies.

Flat rate ensures a no-fault and non user-pays system (i.e., ACC not being an insurance scheme).

A human levy...

so I would be subsidising all the cluz out there (oh wait I am anyway)

[Pedrostt500]

100% Levy on traffic infringements,
$50 levy when you buy a vehicle paid on change of ownership,
$5 levy on WoF, 6moths, $10 for a year.

these alone would generate more than enough money for the traffic account, nearing 800million dollars (at present the traffic account is 650ish million)

Put token levy on vehicle rego even across the board.

Rejoin all the accounts ACC was designed to operate with the seperate accounts



While in theory it sounds good and easy, doing this during a recession is not good as it will increase the cost of living, price of food goes up, transport cost rise and all gets past on to the consumer who hasn't had a pay rise in 2 years.

100% Levy on traffic infringments.
Alot of traffic infringements get wiped by the courts, or reduced by doing comunity service.

$50 levey on vechicle change of ownership.
What about private vechicle sales.

$5 levey on WOF.
So now you want your local garage to have to pass on the levy to, as well as deal with all the other stuff that goes into running a Busness.


A flat fee per Litre of fuel, would cover all motoring related costs, also completely wiping the ACC Levey on REG, the only fly in the ointment is when 100% electric vechicles become more common, though thiese could be charged with their REG.
I would also like to see a flat rate levey on all domestic dwellings collected with the rates to off set accidents in and around the home.

[NighthawkNZ]

100% Levy on traffic infringments.
Alot of traffic infringements get wiped by the courts, or reduced by doing comunity service. the infringement can be wiped if the court decides but the ACC levy should not... No different asking the crims to pay a $50 levy as they are to start doing...

I don't see the problem

$50 levey on vechicle change of ownership.
What about private vechicle sales. when you change ownership papers it is $50 to do so

I don't see the problem


$5 levey on WOF.
So now you want your local garage to have to pass on the levy to, as well as deal with all the other stuff that goes into running a Busness.
I don't see the problem.. welcome to world of running a business.



A flat fee per Litre of fuel, would cover all motoring related costs, also completely wiping the ACC Levey on REG, the only fly in the ointment is when 100% electric vechicles become more common, though thiese could be charged with their REG.

I see increase in living costs and inflation, as transport costs go up, increasing the cost of consumer end products, from food, milk to other essentials as the levy is passed on to the end user. Yet there will be no pay increase for that is covering it.



I would also like to see a flat rate levey on all domestic dwellings collected with the rates to off set accidents in and around the home.

Thats is what your ACC levy in PAYE is for, which covers anything you do as a citizen and technically should cover you riding your motorcycle. Your rego levy should only be a top up

ACC was never designed to have the seperate accounts and needs to go back to the super account.

[Jantar]

100% Levy on traffic infringments.
Alot of traffic infringements get wiped by the courts, or reduced by doing comunity service.
.....
It would be a surcharge on the fine, not the fine itself. So even if the fine is eventually remitted by the court, the surcharge would still stand.

[NighthawkNZ]

None of these things will help ACC get sold to IAG

not my problem... ;)

[TygerTung]

I reckon a flat rate for all road motor vehicle users.

Pushbikes and horses certainly should NOT be levied, as there is no way to police it, plus a lot of people with no money, kids etc ride pushbikes. Also the use of pushbikes should be encouraged as they save the environment, reduce congestion, and improve the health of people using them. (As long as they don't crash)

[BMWST?]

[QUOTE=Rayray401;1129508244]

Why not???
Coveres every Petrol/Diesel user, fairly too based on consumption. Be it a Chain Saw, a Concrete cutter, generaotor on a builders site, consumption = exact recovery of risk via use

And EQUITABLY at that
Other such levys could be: 10% of value on safety gear (potentially this would be not good but has been suggested), levy tyres (get the user on a per km basis that way) Bikes would by default pay a little more if on tyres as we use em faster than a cage does

Many options, but Fuel is a good one IMO

not fair.I have an 1990 BMW car in mint condition.I dont drive it much but it aint very economical.Why should i pay your acc levies and aucklands roads and .............

[BMWST?]

It would be a surcharge on the fine, not the fine itself. So even if the fine is eventually remitted by the court, the surcharge would still stand.

a lot of fines dont get paid now....

[NighthawkNZ]

[QUOTE=Rayray401;1129508244]
And EQUITABLY at that
Other such levys could be: 10% of value on safety gear (potentially this would be not good but has been suggested), levy tyres (get the user on a per km basis that way) Bikes would by default pay a little more if on tyres as we use em faster than a cage does

Disagree with levy on safety gear if anything you should be geting a discount...

Tyres, oil, petrol, hmmm interesting, but those on the smaller bikes, there would be arguements for and against, like the tyre you choose is already $320 and pay levy of $32 because it is the best for your bike, and it only gives 5000k or simply choose an a cheaper typer at $200 with a levy of $20 and it lasts 10,000k but you have more accidents because it crap tyre...

[Jantar]

a lot of fines dont get paid now....
So? This suggestion is not a fine, it is a surcharge on a fine, so once earned would stay with that person till it is paid or the person is declared bankrupt.

Yes, there will be some who would declare bankruptcy rather than pay, but then the consequences of that would stay with them a lot longer than the original surcharge would. Most fines are paid, and so would the surcharge be paid.

[NighthawkNZ]

a lot of fines dont get paid now....

as he said the fine can be dropped by the court but the levy still has to be paid... same as they are going to make all the crims pay a $50 levy, no difference

[BMWST?]

as he said the fine can be dropped by the court but the levy still has to be paid... same as they are going to make all the crims pay a $50 levy, no difference

there is a huge ammount owing on fines....many people just dont pay them.The acc levy must be a part of registering the vehicle or renewing your liceense..Or move away from that altogether and just make it part of income tax.Then everybody pays....

[Jantar]

......The acc levy must be a part of registering the vehicle or renewing your liceense......
There are an awful lot of unregistered vehicles out more. Many more percenatge wise than there are unpaid fines. ;)

[NighthawkNZ]

there is a huge ammount owing on fines....many people just dont pay them.The acc levy must be a part of registering the vehicle or renewing your liceense..Or move away from that altogether and just make it part of income tax.Then everybody pays....

Huge ammount of unregistered vehicles on the road...


Income tax, not every one works, that is on the road... we already paye a levy via PAYE

[FastBikeGear]

A flat fee per Litre of fuel, would cover all motoring related costs, also completely wiping the ACC Levey on REG...

No this wouldn't be fair big someone driving a gas guzzler car or truck, would be paying more per kilometer than someone riding a moped, sccoter or smaller bike.

We want a fair system - not one that just suits us.

[FastBikeGear]

I reckon a flat rate for all road motor vehicle users.

Pushbikes and horses certainly should NOT be levied, as there is no way to police it,

Yes there is. All you need to do is afix a tamper proof numbered seal to all cyles. The private bike parks i.e. Woodhill already do this so that you can show that you have paid your years membership to ride in the park.

Just a point ot note guys. The more places that attach or try to collect ACC from the greater the administration costs to both teh ACC and business owner collecting teh levy on behalf of the ACC.

Extra costs: Every transaction occurs banking fees, every staff member who has to collect ACC, needs to be trrained, extra forms, extra computer processing (yes there are costs to this), extra auditing costs, extra form and paper work costs, extra staff time costs, etc,

A simple and easy system is easier to understand, more transparent and costs less to administer.

We often hear that greater than 50% of money collected by charities is consumed by collection and administration cost, I wonder how that ACC compares to a well run charity?

When ACC privatises/sells the business of ACC to the insurance companies (in 2011?) I wonder how many of the ACC staff will find their jobs trimmed? A fair number of the senior staff at ACC are actually working towards their redundancy. Is that irony or coppery?

[mashman]

What we should have is single flat rate ACC levy per NZ citizenship/residency.

That way cyclists, horse riders, and rugby players are levied too.
Also including prone-to-fall elderlies.

Flat rate ensures a no-fault and non user-pays system (i.e., ACC not being an insurance scheme).

I posted something similar in a different thread. Why marginalise 1 group, 2 groups, X groups of people for going about their day. Motorcycle accidents and the like pale into insignificance when you take into account household injuries, or even non-road accidents... why should road users pay when they already have? If, as NighthawkNZ says we need 800 million, 4 million people multiplied by 200 bucks a year.... erm.... i'm more than happy to stump up my 200 bucks a year for cover, same as paying for my wife and kids... it'll still gonna cost less than it would if i have to pay the proposed levy on the bike...

Put it on a person, a 1 off payment per year, you can opt out if you have PMI etc... Make participants in sport pay $1 per sporting day etc... plenty of simple changes can be made.

I don't care how the accounts are held as they only provide statistical information on which group of ACC users costs the most... highlights safety concerns and that's about it! The balancing of the books still comes down to a single bottom line and any accounting structure that says otherwise is being used purely as an excuse to point the finger and get more filthy lucre.

[Jantar]

No this wouldn't be fair big someone driving a gas guzzler car or truck, would be paying more per kilometer than someone riding a moped, sccoter or smaller bike.

We want a fair system - not one that just suits us.

"someone driving a gas guzzler car or truck, would be paying more per kilometer than someone riding a moped, sccoter or smaller bike." Is exactly the point that makes it fair. When a big gas guzzler hits a moped the chances are the rider will be injured, but the driver of the gas guzzler wouldn't be. Putting the major portion of ACC onto fuel means those who are more likely to cause injury pay more. Those who travel longer distances and so are more at risk pay more.

[Clockwork]

Single flat rate for all vehicles, (say $100/150) topped up from fuel levies. All earnings related compo to be payed from the earner account regardless of where the accident occured!

[popelli]

"someone driving a gas guzzler car or truck, would be paying more per kilometer than someone riding a moped, sccoter or smaller bike." Is exactly the point that makes it fair.

except under the current logic the large gas guzzler protects its occupants in the event of a single vehcile crash and minimises the cost to the acc

using this logic they should be paying less per mile

the entire point about acc it should either be a proper insurance based premium based upon individual risk or wiped altogether and paid by general taxation and income / corporate tax increased accordingly - this would be more effcient and cheaper as it would reduce administration costs

alternatively cut back some of the cover offered to reduce the cost of it in the first instance