Hi-vis vests? [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

Highlander

12th November 2009, 17:40

Got one from Kathmandu ($7) but it has velcro holding it closed until the air speed gets up and it tends to start flapping.

Had one from the Honda Riders Club ($15) which has a zip - much better.

ACC give them away sometimes too (I kid you not, included in your ACC Levies. :woohoo:)

I work on the theory it only has to make one person see me who otherwise wouldn't have, and it has paid for itself in imeasurable multiples.

p.dath

12th November 2009, 17:45

ACC give them away sometimes too (I kid you not, included in your ACC Levies. :woohoo:)

I got one of the free ACC ones from the AMCC. It lasted maybe three months of regular use. The zip fell apart, and the fabric was very light (as in, would be easy to wear a hole through it).

So I haven't worn it for a while. And in the current climate of distrust, I don't think I would want to wear it. Not that I don't appreciate ACC making some effort - I just have a physiological issue with them that makes me not want to take their hand outs.

Highlander

12th November 2009, 17:46

I got one of the free ACC ones from the AMCC. It lasted maybe three months of regular use. The zip fell apart, and the fabric was very light (as in, would be easy to wear a hole through it).

So I haven't worn it for a while. And in the current climate of distrust, I don't think I would want to wear it. Not that I don't appreciate ACC making some effort - I just have a physiological issue with them that makes me not want to take their hand outs.

Guess you get what you PAY for then?

I GS 1

12th November 2009, 18:43

Just wondering if anyone knows where to buy good quality ones. (N Shore or Aucks).

Ok I know - don't rip me for been a pussy, just i do heaps of communtering at ridiculous late hours due to shift work and feel a bit more 'seen' with one on when paasing drink drivers, sleepy people etc etc etc at that time.

Oxford (the company who make a lot of motorcycle accessories) do a nice one. Seventy or eighty bucks but a decent zip and designed not to flap in the wind.

p.dath

12th November 2009, 20:24

Why don't you pop along to Cycletreads on Barrys Point Rd. I'm sure they would have something as well.

Squiggles

12th November 2009, 20:32

I've got quite a few of the "look out for motorbikes" ones left...

Hitcher

12th November 2009, 20:35

Horse

13th November 2009, 00:04

They are dangerous because people who wear them think that they help to make themselves more conspicuous to other road users.

As I've asked before, your evidence for this rather alarming statement is?

Jantar

13th November 2009, 00:34

Be warned that hi-vis vests are dangerous. They are dangerous because people who wear them think that they help to make themselves more conspicuous to other road users, a dangerous assumption. You should ride on the basis that other road users haven't seen you and, if they have, that they want to kill you. A hi-vis vest adds no value to that proposition.

As I've asked before, your evidence for this rather alarming statement is?

Have a look back through the thread history on kiwibiker, and you'll see hundreds of references to something called target fixation. Wearing a Hi Vis vest may certainly make you easier to see, but in the process just makes you more of a target.

A few years ago there was some research carried out in brittain (can't find the link anymore) that showed full black was the safest colour for motorcyclists, as it was the hardest colour for motorists to identify, and therefore the brain perceived the black blob as a threat.

The next safest was any single colour as it could also be perceived as threat, but was more likely just easier to identify.

Getting more dangerous was Hi Vis as this provided a target for the motorist to aim for.

Most dangerous was multi coloured as that tended to act as camoflage and just made the rider invisible.

LBD

13th November 2009, 00:43

Have a look back through the thread history on kiwibiker, and you'll see hundreds of references to something called target fixation. Wearing a Hi Vis vest may certainly make you easier to see, but in the process just makes you more of a target.

A few years ago there was some research carried out in brittain (can't find the link anymore) that showed full black was the safest colour for motorcyclists, as it was the hardest colour for motorists to identify, and therefore the brain perceived the black blob as a threat.

The next safest was any single colour as it could also be perceived as threat, but was more likely just easier to identify.

Getting more dangerous was Hi Vis as this provided a target for the motorist to aim for.

Most dangerous was multi coloured as that tended to act as camoflage and just made the rider invisible.

So you saying its a bit like a light green fire engine being easier to spot in the bush than a red one.....(It is apparently)

Jantar

13th November 2009, 00:49

I guess the same reasoning could apply. I hadn't actually thought about that one.

Horse

13th November 2009, 00:57

Have a look back through the thread history on kiwibiker, and you'll see hundreds of references to something called target fixation. Wearing a Hi Vis vest may certainly make you easier to see, but in the process just makes you more of a target.

Again, your evidence for this particular alarming statement is?

A few years ago there was some research carried out in brittain

You mean research like this? (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/328/7444/857)

After adjustment for potential confounders, drivers wearing any reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.63, 95% confidence interval 0.42 to 0.94) than other drivers.

"Hi-vis vests are bad" appears to be the Great Kiwibiker Myth #1. I also note that your argument appears to be entirely unrelated to Hitcher's assertion that Hi-vis vests are bad because they generate overconfidence in wearers.

Jantar

13th November 2009, 01:25

...You mean research like this? (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/328/7444/857)......

Very interesting. I followed that link and found an abstract of the paper, including the words you quote "After adjustment for potential confounders...".
There is no mention of just what these confounders are, or how the adjustments were made. In other words, the conclusions arrived at in this paper do not come from the raw data they worked with.

I'm in the process of reading the reviewers comments, and so far the majority appear to be dismissive of the claims.

Edit: I did find this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety

Conflicting findings on conspicuity
A New Zealand study supported the Hurt Report's call for increased rider conspicuity, claiming fluorescent clothing, white or light colored helmets, and daytime headlights may reduce motorcycle injuries and death. The study found that wearing reflective or fluorescent clothing reduced the risk of a crash injury by 37%, a white helmet by 24%, and riding with headlights on by 27%.[10]

However, the MAIDS report did not back up the claims that helmet color makes any difference in accident frequency, and that in fact motorcycles painted white were actually over-represented in the accident sample compared to the exposure data.[11] While recognizing how much riders need to be seen, the MAIDS report documented that riders' clothing usually fails to do so, saying that "in 65.3% of all cases, the clothing made no contribution to the conspicuity of the rider or the PTW [powered two-wheeler, i.e. motorcycle]. There were very few cases found in which the bright clothing of the PTW rider enhanced the PTW’s overall conspicuity (46 cases).

YellowDog

13th November 2009, 04:46

I understand your point Horse, but I must say that I don't like them at all.

I do have to wear one for work and would otherwise get fired.

My view is that you are on a highly illuminated vehicle and to draw attention away from anything other than my brake light is not a good thing.

I do agree that they certainly do give a huge side view visibility enhancement and this is where they could potentially help save lives.

Moki

13th November 2009, 06:30

The only measure that was statistiically significant was that there was a 37% lower risk attributed to wearing hi-vis than not. Very weak correlations with the other findings. I just had a look at the abstract-anyone know where the funding came for this study?

Personal experience indicates that there is a huge difference in visibility in all conditions. I particulalry find the yellow the most immediately apparent - sort of like "police". I can recommend the Icon Mil-spec vest on ebay. A bit pricy but very well made materials, a few decent pockets, and very good quality zips.

I GS 1

13th November 2009, 08:56

I think that generating ridiculous hypotheses like you become more of a target for motorists to aim at, are rather desperate attempts to not think about moving out of the comfort zone of the typical biker image. If that was really motorists' mission, I can assure you many more bikers would have been taken out. Black made a lot more sense then - but a couple of things have changed since

vifferman

13th November 2009, 09:05

My Macna jacket has a great hi-viz vest that came with it: it attaches to the jacket via a small zip at the back, and some loops on the front.
It doesn't flap around.
It has reflective bits on it.
It doesn't interfere with getting the jacket on and off.

Fortunately, one of the tabs started to tear because I was a bit rough with it (and being a safety vest, it didn't like that kinda behaviour :rolleyes:)
So now I have an excuse for leaving it in the cupboard.

Scouse

13th November 2009, 09:15

get a job with a company that makes you wear one that way it will cost you nothing

Bass

13th November 2009, 09:17

Be warned that hi-vis vests are dangerous. They are dangerous because people who wear them think that they help to make themselves more conspicuous to other road users, a dangerous assumption. You should ride on the basis that other road users haven't seen you and, if they have, that they want to kill you. A hi-vis vest adds no value to that proposition.

So using this logic, I should turn my headlight off and paint the bike in camoflage?
No thanks.
I can and will continue to take every reasonable precaution that I can to aid my survival (which includes assuming that I haven't been seen).

It seems to me that many of our inmates regard some of these precautions (e.g high viz vests) as "not cool" and therefore seek excuses to justify their dislike. I actually agree - these measures are indeed "not cool". However I have gotten to an age where my survival matters more to me than other people's opinions. Hence my attitude.

Horse

13th November 2009, 09:22

Very interesting. I followed that link and found an abstract of the paper, including the words you quote "After adjustment for potential confounders...".
There is no mention of just what these confounders are, or how the adjustments were made. In other words, the conclusions arrived at in this paper do not come from the raw data they worked with.

To read the full text of the paper, you click on the link on the LH side that says Full Text. (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7444/857) Sorry if that's confusing.

no_8wire

13th November 2009, 09:30

If any one wants a hi-vis, have a look at these - safety company in Onehunga - about 19 all up for one with reflective strips and zip front etc.

JohnC

14th November 2009, 09:03

As I've asked before, your evidence for this rather alarming statement is?

Common sence to start with.
Followed by the fact car drivers see riders wearing pretty vests as being wankers and therefore "no threat" to them.
Before you get out of shape at me over that,I didn't say I see them as wankers,but car drivers definately do.
I know that because of the guys I work with make that very statement every time the subject comes up.
Solid black provides the best silhouette and lights up peoples threat acessment every time.
That alone makes them hesitate for the amount of time it takes their brain time to work out the "real" logic of coping a bike through the drivers door.
People that think weareing more or brighter colours are fooling themselves,,they've just entered the world of urban camoflage and are now at more risk.
Case in point,,I wear solid black,ride a black bike,and for the last 40 years of riding I more or less always have,,,I've "never" hit a car,,and had very very few close calls that weren't a shared issue.
In the mean time the average colour concious KB'er can't get to work most days without several close calls "aways" the other partys fault.
It shouldn't take much to work it out,,,,you scare the crap out of people,,,they keep the fuck away from you,,,,,,and Nobody in a day glo vest is scary.

Hitcher

15th November 2009, 16:16

So using this logic, I should turn my headlight off and paint the bike in camoflage?

If it made you more alert and responsive as a rider, I would recommend it highly.

A fluoro vest won't soften your impact.

p.dath

16th November 2009, 06:52

If it made you more alert and responsive as a rider, I would recommend it highly.

A fluoro vest won't soften your impact.

If it stopped the impact from happening in the first place then that would be a great solution.

Protection is a bit like a dice. Many possible outcomes with different solutions. Know the risks, decide what risks concern you the most, and then take steps to mitigate them.

EDIT: ps. That last comment isn't directed at Hitcher, it's a general statement.

NighthawkNZ

16th November 2009, 07:03

At the end of the day if a car driver can not see a bike 200 metres away whether they are wearing a vest or not then simply put they should not be on the road.

Any line man or cop with tell you after the 200 odd metre they make no difference and just blur into the back ground of the fast moving colours of the modern world. eyes are over compensating with bright colours glaring headlights of bikes and now many cars..

Horse

16th November 2009, 10:12

Any line man or cop with tell you after the 200 odd metre they make no difference and just blur into the back ground of the fast moving colours of the modern world. eyes are over compensating with bright colours glaring headlights of bikes and now many cars..

Except, and this is the important point, the research says this is simply not true, and hi-vis vests do make a small but statistically significant difference in the likelihood of you being involved in a crash. Anecdotal stories about what your wife's brother's mate thinks are irrelevant.

NighthawkNZ

16th November 2009, 10:32

Except, and this is the important point, the research says this is simply not true, and hi-vis vests do make a small but statistically significant difference in the likelihood of you being involved in a crash. Anecdotal stories about what your wife's brother's mate thinks are irrelevant.

research done by the makers of the vests ... oh and lets play the statistics game again... start with the figure you want and make the calculation around it to fit sounds fimilar

Vgygrwr

16th November 2009, 10:32

Accept that there is no way I can recall the studies but one suggested there were two images that tended to "intimidate" one was lots of "black and chrome" the other was mainly "white with yellow/green hi vis" (white bike and white helmet) each was more likely to generate a fear response and therefore register. One "lawless" the other the "law".

Also good to recognise as prediators our eyes are very well designed to pick up objects moving across our field of vison and not so good at picking up anything moving directly toward them. When you want to be seen ensure you move across the line of vision by moving from one side of the lane to the other or weave slightly.

From memory both of these came from monitoring the electrical response in the brain of the "car driver" not accident statistics.

NighthawkNZ

16th November 2009, 10:37

Bass

16th November 2009, 10:45

If it made you more alert and responsive as a rider, I would recommend it highly.

A fluoro vest won't soften your impact.

See, you and I are coming at this from opposite directions. I will take every reasonable precaution that I can and I can see no reason at all why these precautions can't compliment one another.
You, on the other hand are implying that taking some of the precautions will/can make me complacent about the others. For the life of me, I can't see why.
Now we can argue as much as we like about how much (if at all) a hi-vis vest reduces the chance of a collision, but you seem to be the only person on here who is implying that it can actually increase the chance of one.

Sorry mate, but I just don't buy it!

I am happy to wear one on just the chance that it will help.

vifferman

16th November 2009, 11:25

Except, and this is the important point, the research says this is simply not true, and hi-vis vests do make a small but statistically significant difference in the likelihood of you being involved in a crash. Except - and this is the important point - there is no way to eliminate the stattistics due to those who wear safety vests possibly being more safety-minded and careful.
Or thinking they're safer and being more careless.

Remember: "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" (Samuel Clemens, aka Mark Twain).

Bass

16th November 2009, 11:31

Except - and this is the important point - there is no way to eliminate the stattistics due to those who wear safety vests possibly being more safety-minded and careful.
Or thinking they're safer and being more careless.

Bingo!
My own opinion (no research or evidence offered) is that those who do choose to wear "THE VEST" are more safety minded anyway. I have yet to encounter a total jerk on the road who was wearing "THE VEST".

vifferman

16th November 2009, 11:32

Bingo!
My own opinion (no research or evidence offered) is that those who do choose to wear "THE VEST" are more safety minded anyway. I have yet to encounter a total jerk on the road who was wearing "THE VEST".
Yeah, I wasn't wearing mine when I rode past Papakura yesterday... :laugh:

Bass

16th November 2009, 11:48

Yeah, I wasn't wearing mine when I rode past Papakura yesterday... :laugh:

Ah, but you just admitted that you have one.......oh the shame

NighthawkNZ

16th November 2009, 12:17

Ah, but you just admitted that you have one.......oh the shame

I have one as well but will never wear it while riding...

Have since I was a builder on various construction sites

Bass

16th November 2009, 12:21

I have one as well but will never wear it while riding...

Have since I was a builder on various construction sites

Interesting.....
That implies that you think you were more at risk on the building site than on the bike - or perhaps that what others think is important to you - or even that you didn't catch Vifferman's double entendre.......

NighthawkNZ

16th November 2009, 12:23

Interesting.....
That implies that you think you were more at risk on the building site than on the bike - or perhaps that what others think is important to you.

no I had to wear it it was the site rules... and yes I feel safer on the bike than any construction site...

hell many bikes these days you can't see what the rider is wearing, from the front due to the fairing and sitting position, and with now your headlight is to be on the extra glear from that will hide it from a distance anyway which is when you are wanting the vest to be working... and including the extra glear cars now have with many of them driving with daytime lights... You can't see the vest on many other bikes from behind with the pack and or top box from behind, and sitting position on many other bikes either and if you can't see the bike and rider from side on... something is wrong with you as it is to late then no matter what.

Yes in some cases the hi Vis Vest will stand out more... but in just as many cases Black will stand out more... (a graphic trick use the drop shadow to make it stand out) similar theory

As I said if you can not see a bike and rider 200 meters away (no matter with or with out the vest) you should be on the road. Hell I am calculating vehicles upto a 3 or 4 km's away and some a lot further...

Around town the fast movement of changing colours nothing really stands out...

At the end of the day I have nothing against those that wear one... but if we all had to we would be come invisible again stupid as it sounds... especially if you carry a clipboard ultimate camo

vifferman

16th November 2009, 12:51

Ah, but you just admitted that you have one.......oh the shame
It's not too shameful.
The front looks like this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82637&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1200339312) and the back like this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82638&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1200339312).

Horse

16th November 2009, 12:59

research done by the makers of the vests

I'm sure that...

Susan Wells, senior lecturer in epidemiology, Bernadette Mullin, public health physician, Jennie Connor, senior lecturer in epidemiology, Roy Lay-Yee, assistant research fellow, and Rod Jackson, professor of epidemiology, all from the School of Population Health at University of Auckland, and Robyn Norton, professor of public health at the Institute for International Health, University of Sydney, and John Langley director of injury prevention research unit at the University of Otago...

all appreciate being described as "makers of vests".

Swoop

16th November 2009, 13:10

So using this logic, I should turn my headlight off and paint the bike in camoflage?
The camoflage point is interesting. GIJoe1313 has full camo riding gear...
I suppose he has been killed many times over with that approach?

Common sence to start with.
Followed by the fact car drivers see riders wearing pretty vests as being wankers and therefore "no threat" to them.

Solid black provides the best silhouette and lights up peoples threat acessment every time.

Nobody in a day glo vest is scary.
Bloody well said.

Bass

16th November 2009, 13:14

It's not too shameful.
The front looks like this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82637&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1200339312) and the back like this (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82638&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1200339312).

Whoa!!!!!
That's like Richard Hammond claiming "I am a driving God" on film!

vifferman

16th November 2009, 13:14

Anyway, the only real way to tell is to clone someone, put them on identical bikes, fit some with fluoro vests and some not, wind them up, and send him/her and all his/her clones out'n'about, and see how many get squished.

From my own highly scientific and impartial sampling, the times I wasn't seen and had a violent ineraction with other motorists (including a cyclist and pedestrian), visibility wasn't an issue.
You can't see someone if you don't bother looking.
I could have been wearing a flashing neon sign and it's doubtful it would have made a difference.

Maybe my sister was right. I was talking about this with her yesterday (she'd seen Saturday's bike procession near Papakura and was MOST impressed). I opined that bikes seem to get seen if look like they're cop bikes, to which she said, "Maybe they should allow all motorcycles to be fitted with sirens and flashing lights".
What a bloody good idea!

Bass

16th November 2009, 13:19

no I had to wear it it was the site rules... and yes I feel safer on the bike than any construction site...
At the end of the day I have nothing against those that wear one... but if we all had to we would be come invisible again stupid as it sounds... especially if you carry a clipboard ultimate camo

The camoflage point is interesting. GIJoe1313 has full camo riding gear...
I suppose he has been killed many times over with that approach?

Bloody well said.

Gentlemen, it's your life and your call.
I just happen to think that you are wrong and the vast majority of rigorous research supports my point of view. In fact if you check back (I believe) that you will find that the only ones in here that are quoting serious investigation are those that contend that hi-vis helps. Note that I didn't say that it's a cure all, I said that it helps.

Oh and Justin's camo is RED for chrissakes. It stands out like a spare prick at a wedding.

vifferman

16th November 2009, 13:22

Gentlemen, it's your life and your call.
In fact if you check back (I believe) that you will find that the only ones in here that are quoting serious investigation are those that contend that hi-vis helps.
So, not the kewl kids then? :confused:

Bass

16th November 2009, 13:34

So, not the kewl kids then? :confused:
Maybe, maybe not.
I think that it's dangerous to form an opinion about someone based on their internet persona.
I suspect that you agree

NighthawkNZ

16th November 2009, 13:39

Gentlemen, it's your life and your call.
I just happen to think that you are wrong and the vast majority of rigorous research supports my point of view. In fact if you check back (I believe) that you will find that the only ones in here that are quoting serious investigation are those that contend that hi-vis helps. Note that I didn't say that it's a cure all, I said that it helps.

In my experience and I use to wear one doing motorcycling couriering for a year (had that job for 5 years) ... Then decided it didn't make a damn difference so I stopped wearing it... if people don't look they are not going to see you no matter what you are wearing or not wearing. Then add in the element of "motion included blindness" (and that doesn't matter what colour mix there is...)

The main problem people have on the road is impatience they simply need to slow down and then look again.

Oh and Justin's camo is RED for chrissakes. It stands out like a spare prick at a wedding.

lol

vifferman

16th November 2009, 13:40

Maybe, maybe not.
I think that it's dangerous to form an opinion about someone based on their internet persona.
I suspect that you agree
Fersher. :yes:
I mean, people who haven't met me probably think I'm intelligent, charming, urbane, and incredibly good-looking. Not to mention a witty raconteur, modest, the life of the party, knowledgeable about all kinds of things, helpful, kind, sexy, irresistably likeable and melodiously tootling.

Reality Bites.

:doh:

But at least I don't have too many enemies. :o

Apart from those who DO actually know me, that is....

Ferkletastic

16th November 2009, 13:43

To those (mostly HD & cruiser it would seem) riders who think they look "scary" I refer you to the latest episode of South Park.

The public doesn't see bikers as badass, they see them the same way they see balding dudes in little convertables.

People are aware and have been for a long time that the average big cruiser rider is most likely a middle aged advertising manager not an outlaw, and no amount of HD brand leather and tassles will change that.

Get over yourselves.

As for Hi Vis, I wear one most of the time and also assume I haven't been seen.

Bass

16th November 2009, 13:44

Fersher. :yes:
I mean, people who haven't met me probably think I'm intelligent, charming, urbane, and incredibly good-looking. Not to mention a witty raconteur, modest, the life of the party, knowledgeable about all kinds of things, helpful, kind, sexy, irresistably likeable and melodiously tootling.

Reality Bites.

:doh:

But at least I don't have too many enemies. :o

Apart from those who DO actually know me, that is....

It all fell over at "sexy" eh?

vifferman

16th November 2009, 13:45

The public doesn't see bikers as badass, they see them the same way they see balding dudes in little convertables.
Huh...
I saw a grey-haired man (looked like a shopkeeper, or beancounter) in a new Z4 this morning. He may as well have been in a Nissan Sunny.... :rolleyes:
He drove it like one...

It all fell over at "sexy" eh?
I have three Mutant Troglodyte Spawn, who are expert at disavowing me of any illusions I might have about my kewlness (especially #2Son).
Bastids! :Pokey:

avgas

16th November 2009, 13:47

The most interesting experience I had on a bike was when I rode dangerously black.
Matt Black helmet, tinted visor
Black jacket
Black Jeans
Black boots
on a black bike (loud) with no stickers

People bloody changed lanes to get away from me.
So that Hi-Viz stuff must work in getting people to see you.

My argument is very simple. If they see you - does it matter?
Very "Women in a red dress" statement (....matrix....)
but I have found that very few people pay attention to anything when driving. I don't. However if you wish to ride around and become a memory as someone drives over you - I imagine Hi-Viz is perfect for getting their attention.....even if it is too late at that point

Swoop

16th November 2009, 14:10

Oh and Justin's camo is RED for chrissakes. It stands out like a spare prick at a wedding.
Not to the colourblind...:blip:
How many of that category of "road-user" are there out on the roads?

To those (mostly HD & cruiser it would seem) riders who think they look "scary" ... The public doesn't see bikers as badass, they see them the same way they see balding dudes in little convertables.
I'll keep that in mind whenever I see a Mongrel Mob/Highway 61 group of bikers...

The most interesting experience I had on a bike was when I rode dangerously black.
Matt Black helmet, tinted visor
Black jacket
Black Jeans
Black boots
on a black bike (loud) with no stickers

People bloody changed lanes to get away from me.
So that Hi-Viz stuff must work in getting people to see you.
Strange. I have noticed the same thing.
If people want to wear day-glo, then go for it.

Ferkletastic

16th November 2009, 14:29

I'll keep that in mind whenever I see a Mongrel Mob/Highway 61 group of bikers...

If people want to wear day-glo, then go for it.

There are fairly obvious exceptions. But it's pretty easy to spot the difference between 1%er and Jeff from marketing.

Badjelly

16th November 2009, 14:35

...A few years ago there was some research carried out in Britain (can't find the link anymore)...

No-one ever can.

Bass

17th November 2009, 07:39

No-one ever can.

Well that screws up all my arguments then, doesn't it?

ducatijim

18th November 2009, 09:16

Just a wee aside here; Hi-Vis has become SO common in our daily lives- we see it on every worker who doesn't just guide a pen in the safety of a office- that we are in danger of becoming 'numb' to its significance in the outdoors.
Kinda like the flashy amber lites used by every second vehicle that is motionless( sometimes not too) anywhere ALONG a road.

It is all so 'overkill' everywhere nowdays that I barely register I have seen Hi-Vis or flashies...prolly just a courier driver parked in Subby for lunch!

Wot about you............................................... ..............:stupid:

NighthawkNZ

18th November 2009, 09:21