The bigger picture.

[Katman]

So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

Regardless of what degree of success we have from Tuesday's protest ride (and any subsequent protest action), if there is not a visible attempt to clean up our own backyard then we will find ourselves being targeted over and over again.

[twotyred]

At the root of it,it has nothing to do with bikes,we are just the thin edge of the wedge of a much larger agenda

[Hiflyer]

I agree,

We are being targetted cos we are at higher risk of injury, its not top seceret.
So it is fair that we pay higher levies, but these major increases are a bit over the top I reckon.

What I would like to see are increases which reflect the statistics more accurately.

Yup there are people out there who treat the road as a track :stupid: which contributes to the "biker at fault" accidents but what about the "car at fault" ones.

Cleaning up OUR act will only get us so far, we will still be having cars pull out infront of us etc etc. (And there is the age old image of bikers being the "bad-boys" so to speak. Sorry Ladies :spanking: )

[Katman]

We are being targetted cos we are at higher risk of injury, its not top seceret.


No, we are being targeted because we are over represented in accident statistics (and we are an easy target to have the cost of our mode of transport increased).

Many motorcyclists believe that we are the 'elite' of road users. I'd like to see some proof that we deserve to consider ourselves so highly.

[Maha]

Most (if not any) protest will get both positive and negitive feedback, thats the way it is. Take Homos (oops sorry, gay and lesbians) now if they were to protest against the civil union thing and walk on the roads that we use, disrupting our daily routine, some would think they are just are bunch of fucking homos and some would think on the negitive, thats the way it goes.

[Katman]

Most (if not any) protest will get both positive and negitive feedback, thats the way it is. Take Homos (oops sorry, gay and lesbians) now if they were to protest against the civil union thing and walk on the roads that use, disrupting our daily routine, some would think they are just are bunch of fucking homos and some would think on the negitive, thats the way it goes.

We need to stop and consider why we now find ourselves in the position of needing to protest at all.

[Conquiztador]

So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

Regardless of what degree of success we have from Tuesday's protest ride (and any subsequent protest action), if there is not a visible attempt to clean up our own backyard then we will find ourselves being targeted over and over again.


I agree,

We are being targetted cos we are at higher risk of injury, its not top seceret.
So it is fair that we pay higher levies, but these major increases are a bit over the top I reckon.

What I would like to see are increases which reflect the statistics more accurately.

Yup there are people out there who treat the road as a track :stupid: which contributes to the "biker at fault" accidents but what about the "car at fault" ones.

Cleaning up OUR act will only get us so far, we will still be having cars pull out infront of us etc etc. (And there is the age old image of bikers being the "bad-boys" so to speak. Sorry Ladies :spanking: )

Nope. It has nothing to do with the way "we" ride. It is all re National politics. Privatise ACC. At the HB BIKEOI National's Craig Foss did NOT ONCE state that "we" are getting injured too much and "we" need to ajust our riding. But he wanted to know if we would be happy to be able to select a insurer for our ACC instead of an automatic Government ACC provider. He tried to tell us that it would be in our advantage...

So you see, bikers is the first step. If they get past us then everyone will follow. And imagine who will then be prepared to "ACC Insure" you for a all in cover. You will be covered for walking but not running on a road. You will be covered for biking as long as you were not at fault. You will have a shit show to be covered if you want to ski, hang glide, base jump or parachute. Accident cover as we know it will be history.

I do not for one second buy the "riders only have them self to blame for the proposed ACC hikes". You guys are wrong!

[Katman]

I do not for one second buy the "riders only have them self to blame for the proposed ACC hikes". You guys are wrong!

No, you are wrong.

If we, as a whole, had an exemplary record of public road usage there is no way that we would be facing the situation that we are now.

[Hiflyer]

...there who treat the road as a track :stupid: which contributes to the "biker at fault" accidents but what about the "car at fault" ones.

Cleaning up OUR act will only get us so far, we will still be having cars pull out infront of us etc etc. (And there is the age old image of bikers being the "bad-boys" so to speak. Sorry Ladies :spanking: )


No, we are being targeted because we are over represented in accident statistics (and we are an easy target to have the cost of our mode of transport increased).

Many motorcyclists believe that we are the 'elite' of road users. I'd like to see some proof that we deserve to consider ourselves so highly.

That was the point I was making with this comment. we are over represented but the fault still lies with us for a sizeable portion of the accidents.

[oldrider]

No, we are being targeted because we are over represented in accident statistics (and we are an easy target to have the cost of our mode of transport increased).

Many motorcyclists believe that we are the 'elite' of road users. I'd like to see some proof that we deserve to consider ourselves so highly.

Sorry Katman, you are way off beam, this is a political circus of distraction!

The end outcome is about dismantling ACC as a no blame "welfare" system and replacing it with a private "insurance" scheme, open to competition!

You are right with respect that some of our behaviour has helped those (AA) who despise us to thrust their questionable statistics into the attack!

The public perception of our behaviour (the basis of your personal quest) has been but a side show ingredient rather than the main event! :oi-grr:

Motorcyclists are nothing less than pawn's in the political idealistic game! :shifty:

[Hiflyer]

I do not for one second buy the "riders only have them self to blame for the proposed ACC hikes". You guys are wrong!

Neither do I, the point here is that we are over represented. The point of the protests aren't to get out of the levies increase completely (From what I gather) it's that they are unfair and we are being targetted to an extent where the increases are higher than what bikers deserve for the accidents they do not cause. not that we are solely to blame

EDIT: Or it could be political as everyone else seems to think... I don't know much about politics, in this country but what is obvious is that Labour will be going for the biker (and anyone else who gets targetted like this) vote next election!!

[Katman]

Motorcyclists are nothing less than pawn's in the political idealistic game! :shifty:

Yes, a pawn placed there by ourselves.

[MSTRS]

I do not for one second buy the "riders only have them self to blame for the proposed ACC hikes". You guys are wrong!


No, you are wrong.

If we, as a whole, had an exemplary record of public road usage there is no way that we would be facing the situation that we are now.

And I fall somewhere in the middle of those two views. I agree there are those out there who tarnish the image we would perhaps prefer to have, but it is not up to us as a group to 'rein them in'. That is a job for the police. And physics. The crash stats of the loose units may not be flash, but they aren't enough in the big picture to get to where we are at right now.
The recent new laws for boi-racers are a result of a certain type of car driver. But it's not all car drivers that have led to those laws, is it? But those are laws about behaviour. If car drivers were being asked to pay more because of the boi-racer stats, think of the uproar there would be. We motorcyclists are no different.

[Reckless]

Weather I agree or disagree with Katman is irrelevant to the fact that they are monitoring our threads and we don't need to be supporting their arguments on a public forum 1 day before the Bikoi starts!!
They are already quoting the fact that someone suggested putting our accidents down as Cycle accidents! What the hell is this bloody thread gonna do for us! Sheesh!

You are untitled to your opinion Katman but FFS why now????

[Conquiztador]

Yes, a pawn placed there by ourselves.


Weather I agree or disagree with Katman is irrelevant to the fact that they are monitoring our threads and we don't need to be supporting their arguments on a public forum 1 day before the Bikoi starts!!
They are already quoting the fact that someone suggested putting our accidents down as Cycle accidents! What the hell is this bloody thread gonna do for us! Sheesh!

You are untitled to your opinion Katman but FFS why now????

At times I really wish you Katman had stayed with your first hobby of mastrubation.

[Katman]

You are untitled to your opinion Katman but FFS why now????

Because it's of vital importance that 'they' know that there is a large number of motorcyclists who do want to see a change in Motorcycling.

[MSTRS]

Because it's of vital importance that 'they' know that there is a large number of motorcyclists who do want to see a change in Motorcycling.

But that's a change of culture. Nobody changes 50+ years of culture overnight. Unless it's by pricing it off the road.

[oldrider]

Yes, a pawn placed there by ourselves.

OK, I will give you that point but the "ourselves" that you constantly complain of are only small percentage of the overall "us"!

The public perception of motorcycles and motorcyclists of today is way higher than it was (dare I say it) in "my" day!

I believe it was the AA that coined the phrase "there goes another temporary New Zealander", every time a motorcyclist went by!

The media and the general public soon picked up on that and the rest is history

I might be wrong about that but hey, they (AA) are not that worried about accuracy in statistics, are they?

Funny thing is that when they (AA) began, their AA rescue service, they rode a motorcycle and side car to rescue the stricken "motorists"!

I well remember the AA advertising, featuring the motorcycle's and side-car's!

[Katman]

But that's a change of culture. Nobody changes 50+ years of culture overnight.

Nobody ever said it was going to be easy.

I'm in it for the long haul.

[Reckless]

Because it's of vital importance that 'they' know that there is a large number of motorcyclists who do want to see a change in Motorcycling.

One of Bronzes (and all the protest riders) main points/arguments is for "rider education" and rider training along with education for car drivers to be more aware of us!

Les's asking for ACC to stand by their mission statement of "accident prevention" and demanding 1 flipping million bucks to be invested in this area!

What more do you want! Everyone here to put their hands up without a fight!!!

I'm gonna send my $2k rego bill for my classic and bike to you I think!

You are not helping!

[Katman]

You are not helping!

Neither is burying your head in the sand.

[Reckless]

Neither is burying your head in the sand.
That was comment was typical Katman abusive and destructive!

Not me! I was protest riding yesterday! For no ACC fee hike and better rider education (as Les stated in his speech).

But I don't have to justify my actions to you. I stand by my comments!

I give this thread 2 pages B4 it turns into a shit fight that divides us and puts ammunition straight into ACC's gun!

Signing off! I don't want to be a party to this!

[Ixion]

So, like, the sexual abuse victims, that w ere also singled out for ACC attention. I guess they were all to blame too?

Or the guy in the wheelchair on TV the other night. ACC's targeting him (and others like him, too). All their own fault of course?

Reality is that we are in "this situation" because ACC saw us as an easy target.

Biker's public won't care what we do to them. Public hate motorcyclists. That's what ACC thought (maybe based on the negative input off people like Katman, in fact).

Turns out, ACC (and Mr Katman) were plain wrong.

The public don't hate us. In fact, the public, and , by and large, the press, have swung in behind us.

I don't recall, in 50 years, any time when motorcyclists have had so much public support.

Sure, there will always be the haters , like the AA (and Mr Katman ).

And even our supporters will criticise people who do stupid shit. As, indeed, do we.

[Katman]

Sure, there will always be the haters , like the AA (and Mr Katman ).



Steady on Les - it you truly think I'm against Motorcycling you are clearly a couple short of a six pack.

[yungatart]

I second Ixion.
Yesterday we had our regional bikeoi protest.
I was totally gobsmacked at the amount of public support we got, all of it totally unasked for!
Motorists voluntarily waving us on, car drivers tooting their horns, people taking photos and cheering us on. Overwhelming! The most extraordinary thing...the oldies! They love us! They see it as totally unfair, and a few have confessed that they wonder is it them next....
Not everyone is agaiinst us...my experience has been almost totally opposite to that!

[Katman]

Not everyone is agaiinst us...my experience has been almost totally opposite to that!

I fear that if we, as a whole, don't learn a valuable lesson from this exercise then we will struggle to call on any outside support when we face the same situation 10 years down the track.

[bogan]

political/acc dismantling agenda/whatever the reason.
We are just an easy target (or so they thought):
animosity between bikers and the much more numerous car drivers should give the proposal support (or so they thought)
we are a minority (though they have still bitten off more than they can chew)
and we are over-represented in crashes (though they still had to manipulate the stats)

could we do more to ensure we arent targeted, yes, of course, we could all drive cars. Realisticaly we will be unable to greatly change any of the points I made above, it comes with riding. Though I think we can reduce the effect, make biking a little safer, get on with car drivers a little better, get more numbers. No harm in trying any of these things, but instead of bitching about it on a forum, how bout starting the ball rolling to actually do something.

[Katman]

could we do more to ensure we arent targeted, yes, of course, we could all drive cars. Realisticaly we will be unable to greatly change any of the points I made above, it comes with riding. Though I think we can reduce the effect, make biking a little safer, get on with car drivers a little better, get more numbers. No harm in trying any of these things, but instead of bitching about it on a forum, how bout starting the ball rolling to actually do something.

I don't think we need to all drive cars. All we need to do is address the issue of reckless behaviour on motorcycles. How hard can that be?

:eek:

[Reckless]

Steady on Les - it you truly think I'm against Motorcycling you are clearly a couple short of a six pack.

You annoy me mate, all you appear to want to be, is right!! and fuck the rest of us!

You wanna bang your drum on the same point and hold the few up who ride like you don't want them to, as a representation of all motorcyclists!
Calling Ixion "a couple short of a six pack" is not helping either!

You do come across to me as very anti Motorcyclist IMHO!

[bogan]

I don't think we need to all drive cars. All we need to do is address the issue of reckless behaviour on motorcycles. How hard can that be?

:eek:

course we dont need to drive cars, but thats what it would take not to be targeted i reckon. And im all for stopping reckless behavior on bikes, but that sounds well difficult, a stern word aint gonna do it :nono: :no:

[Katman]

course we dont need to drive cars, but thats what it would take not to be targeted i reckon.

Of course it wouldn't take that.

All it would take is to be able to be seen, as a whole, as responsible road users.

At the moment, the acts of the minority tar the acts of the majority.

[DMNTD]

You do come across to me as very anti Motorcyclist IMHO!

I don't see it as that at all...more of a case of anti "road-racers".

[YellowDog]

So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

Regardless of what degree of success we have from Tuesday's protest ride (and any subsequent protest action), if there is not a visible attempt to clean up our own backyard then we will find ourselves being targeted over and over again.
Katman mate, your post tells me that you don't have a good handle on the problem on NZ roads. Perhaps you should work for the government as they seem to have no idea either; so let me help you.

The problem on NZ Roads is almost entirely down to generally poor driving standards for all road users. Your example of some using the public highway as a racetrack also falls into this category.

Here are some of the problems I see:

Kids being able to drive at 15.
No compusary insurance requirement.
Failure of Police to Police.
A driving test of a very low standard.

The NZ government indicates that it is happy with the number of serious accidents and deaths on its roads however it would like some more money to fund this growth industry.

Police not Policing and saying 'Speed Kills' is a negative contributor to the problem. I find the 'easy money' mentality quite negative. Driving or riding at 50kph around a blind bend (like the TV ad) is perfectly legal.

IME - what the government should be doing is raising the bar and in so doing, increasing the general standards on the road (this may take 20 years).

Preventing new motorcyclist riding a powerful motorcycle on the road (250cc can be very powerful) without first showing proficiency in the necessary skills would be a major step in the right direction.

The same should go for car driving. If you don't indiacte more than 3 seconds before the manouevre, then you fail. If you don't look over you shoulder before changing lanes you fail. etc.etc.

Perhaps Police should be able to make bad drivers sit a retest for a new and higher standard test OR lose their licence.

The present system allows 15 year old kids drive 3-Litre turbo charged car with no insurance.

Perhaps this is time to get real and change from the 'Head in the Sand' approach!

[Reckless]

I don't see it as that at all...more of a case of anti "road-racers".

Fair enough ! Perhaps the comment was a bit harsh but I've seen some awfully nasty katman threads here.

[davereid]

All it would take is to be able to be seen, as a whole, as responsible road users. At the moment, the acts of the minority tar the acts of the majority.

On the whole bikers are good drivers.

From A.C.Cs own dataset.

a) Motorcyclists are not primarily responsible for 65% of collisions

b) Motorcyclists are not primarily responsible for 49% of all the accidents they have.

Pretty clearly, bikers are performimg well above average in collisions. But even statistic (b) showing we are responsible for 51% of all our accidents is actually a very good figure, although at first glance it may not seem so.

Heres why.

If there are 100 vehicles on the road and they all crash into a lamp-post, then they are 100% liable for those accidents.

If they all crash into another vehicle, in each crash, one vehicle will be primarily responsible. So they are 50% liable for those accidents.

ALL ACCIDENTS will fall between the best figure of 50%, and the worst figure of 100% liability for a normal vehicle sample group.

(The only way you can get less than 50% for the sample group as a whole, is if a high number of accidents are caused by "acts of god".)

As a group then, you would expect the liability figure to lie between 50-100%, with the actual number really representing the type of accident that the vehicles have.

Only after you divide the group up into say red cars (or motorcycles) and blue cars can you start to get some data other than the type of accident that is being had.

This is where the red car is looking good, peforming close to theoretical best in all accidents, and not at fault in 2/3rds of collisions.

[puddy]

No, you are wrong.

If we, as a whole, had an exemplary record of public road usage there is no way that we would be facing the situation that we are now.
Yeah, but if not one single accident that involved a motorcyclist was caused by a motorcyclist, our record would still be pretty average.

Pretty sure it's all BEYOND'S fault!:laugh:

[Katman]

Fair enough ! Perhaps the comment was a bit harsh but I've seen some awfully nasty katman threads here.

Awww, you poor petal.

[Katman]

(The only way you can get less than 50% for the sample group as a whole, is if a high number of accidents are caused by "acts of god".)



What a load of shit.

To obtain favourable statistics only requires a favourable change of attitude towards sharing the roads with all other road users.

[Reckless]

Awww, you poor petal.

LOL!! I won't respond I can see this will get us know where!! :bleh:

Thank goodness we have someone like Les to speak for us!!

[Ronin]

No, we are being targeted because we are over represented in accident statistics (and we are an easy target to have the cost of our mode of transport increased).

Many motorcyclists believe that we are the 'elite' of road users. I'd like to see some proof that we deserve to consider ourselves so highly.

Provide the proof that we as a group are over represented in crash statics.

ACC can't do it with out fudging the numbers.

Anyone who pretends that our chosen pastime isn't dangerous is deluded. Almost as deluded as someone that thinks we should all ride the same way they do.

[Katman]

Katman mate, your post tells me that you don't have a good handle on the problem on NZ roads.

Perhaps my posts should instead tell you that I have a reasonable handle on the general attitude of New Zealand motorcyclists based on more than half my life time being one of those New Zealand motorcyclists.

[MSTRS]

There's numbers. And then theres' percentages.
At it's extreme (low) end...1 bike crashes through rider fault = 100%. 2 crashes either way = 50%.
The actual numbers of real crashes are fairly low, regardless of what the percentages are suggesting. But I'd agree that they are still too high. Only a shift in attitude is going to whittle that down - albeit slowly. As has been happening since the 90s.

[Ronin]

Steady on Les - it you truly think I'm against Motorcycling you are clearly a couple short of a six pack.

No your just against motorcyclists. You are today, on a public forum being followed by the media, ACC and the Police saying "Yup, motorcyclists are to blame, the hikes are vindicated"

With friends like you, who needs Nick Smith.

Lets be honest and be done with it. You are pissed off because the majority of people here disagree strongly with your narrow minded views. I would suggest that if you started working with and for the community in a positive way that you might just get some of the recognition and respect you crave.

[NighthawkNZ]

Perhaps my posts should instead tell you that I have a reasonable handle on the general attitude of New Zealand motorcyclists

only the very few you have met

[Katman]

Provide the proof that we as a group are over represented in crash statics.



Why should I provide you with anything?

The figures speak for themselves.

[Ronin]

Why should I provide you with anything?

The figures speak for themselves.

You are the one making the claim. Are there not figures to back it up?

[davereid]

Why should I provide you with anything?

The figures speak for themselves.

Yes they do.

They show bikers are well above average drivers.

[NighthawkNZ]

Why should I provide you with anything?

The figures speak for themselves.

that over all bike accidents and claims have been on a steady decline since 1987, the number of registered bikes have quadraupled and claims in motorcycle accidents have only doubled, and the is room for questions on these stats if they are on or off road related (though ACC deny this... but the numbers don't add up)

[Katman]

that over all bike accidents and claims have been on a steady decline since 1987, the number of registered bikes have quadraupled and claims in motorcycle accidents have only doubled, and the is room for questions on these stats if they are on or off road related (though ACC deny this... but the numbers don't add up)

Please tell me you don't support the idea that motorcyclists should be allowed to act however they please on the road.

Too many have the attitude that "accidents will always happen".

Why shouldn't we look closely at why those accidents happen and look equally closely at how we can reduce those accident?

[Shadows]

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

That is what the Police are for.

FFS.

[NighthawkNZ]

Please tell me you don't support the idea that motorcyclists should be allowed to act however they please on the road.

Where the fuck did I say that... get off you high horse man... the very stats you so called say "speak for themself", don't show what you are trying to say.

The fact remains that while there are more bikes on the road, there are also more cars and trucks on the road and yet the accident rates over all are declining including motorcycling which has been on a steady decline.


Too many have the attitude that "accidents will always happen".

Well unfortunately, "accidents will always happen" untill you take out the human factor, and even then there will be accidents.


Why shouldn't we look closely at why those accidents happen and look equally closely at how we can reduce those accident?

I have been for the last 25 years I have been riding, yet ACC haven't been doing their job of accident prevention on the roads or for motorcycling. Hell the only acc advert I saw was to try and justify the hikes...

All the drink driving and slow down and look before you cross the intersection aren't coming from ACC, when they should be part of it as well... most of these are Police and LTSA... where is ACC, its there main job is it not?

The Ride Right Courses, while ACC says they are good and support them... why are they not puting their money where their mouth is... why are they not recommending these courses should be part of getting your license. Why are they not sponsing these courses, instead of them the great guys that do run them in the weekends on their own time, basically for the love of motorcycling, make just enough money to cover the costs.

When was the last time you saw a bike awareness advert... we are one of the few countries that don't have them... and there are some great ones on Youtube...

[Oscar]

I was driving my car yesterday and saw the enemy.
It wasn't a bad car driver, the Cops or the ACC - it was a fat forty-something on a Harley.

T-Shirt
Shorts
Jandals

The sheer irony was that I was listening to the Midday news report on ACC rally's by motorcyclists and discussing the issues with my son.

So whoever you were, late model Harley with a yellow t-shirt passing Road & Sport Motorcycles at about 12.05 yesterday arvo - you are a dickhead and I'm fucked if I should pay ACC levies for you...

[YellowDog]

Perhaps my posts should instead tell you that I have a reasonable handle on the general attitude of New Zealand motorcyclists based on more than half my life time being one of those New Zealand motorcyclists.
Fair enough. I do respect your right to state you opinion and experience.

[Katman]

That is what the Police are for.

FFS.

Why?

What's wrong with a bit of self imposed control?

[AD345]

....you are a dickhead and I'm fucked if I should pay ACC levies for you...

...says any number of other car drivers to you on your bike...

You really haven't been paying attention to what's going on have you?

[Grasshopperus]

Guys, this thread is actually good practice for things to come. When the political process of parliamentary review, select committee etc actually begins the arguments for ACC change are going to come from legions of govt sponsored lawyers, spin-doctors, shills and sundry. The arguments they make along with political support from the national party is going to be a helluva lot more convincing and close-to-home/wallet for the voters than anything Katman has said so far.
What I'm saying, is that if the questions that Katman is posing are difficult to rebuke, think how hard it's going to be against the pros.

[Dean]

Say if we the motorcyclists win the war against ACC... Will there still be people riding extra cautiously trying not to put a bad hyped name on us motorcyclist at large. Or will they break back into old habits. Im just saying.

[Katman]

Say if we the motorcyclists win the war against ACC... Will there still be people riding extra cautiously trying not to put a bad hyped name on us motorcyclist at large. Or will they break back into old habits. Im just saying.

Despite it's apalling syntax, that is exactly what I'm asking in this thread.

[Dean]

For all it's apalling syntax, that is exactly what I'm asking in this thread.

IF ACC won - we would see a decrease in statistics right? Because many promised to go back next year like myself and not give up. Further displaying the extra cautious riding attitude and preaching it to the masses. If they can get 500 bikers on the auckland protest ride to not speed, stunt, endanger others it seems the message is strong.

[Katman]

IF ACC won - we would see a decrease in statistics right? Because many promised to go back next year like myself and not give up. Further displaying the extra cautious riding attitude and preaching it to the masses. If they can get 500 bikers on the auckland protest ride to not speed, stunt, endanger others it seems the message is strong.

Believe me, the message is strong.

Unfortunately, the cloth between many motorcyclists ears is flame retardant.

[Oscar]

...says any number of other car drivers to you on your bike...

You really haven't been paying attention to what's going on have you?


When a car driver sees me, I'll have decent gear on...
I pay attention - I see "born again bikers" wobbling on their new Harleys, I see untrained youngsters on CBR's and I see that we're our own worst enemies.

[boomer]

So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

Regardless of what degree of success we have from Tuesday's protest ride (and any subsequent protest action), if there is not a visible attempt to clean up our own backyard then we will find ourselves being targeted over and over again.


i blame Beyond, i already invoiced him as i can't sue 'im

[MSTRS]

What's wrong with a bit of self imposed control?

Who else missed the irony here?

[davereid]

Say if we the motorcyclists win the war against ACC... Will there still be people riding extra cautiously trying not to put a bad hyped name on us motorcyclist at large. Or will they break back into old habits. Im just saying.

Win or lose I will still enjoy country rides in the sun, with the helmet in the top box, where it belongs...

Stop safety-ing my life out of existence...

[Dean]

Believe me, the message is strong.

Unfortunately, the cloth between many motorcyclists ears is flame retardant.

Hmm I like the way you perceive matters and your timing in bringing this to attention is superb.

But of all how you can have so many people hating you yet you keep on going sharing the message unconditionally.

[AD345]

When a car driver sees me, I'll have decent gear on...
I pay attention - I see "born again bikers" wobbling on their new Harleys, I see untrained youngsters on CBR's and I see that we're our own worst enemies.


So you haven't been paying attention.

The ACC levy issue is only marginally about motorcyclists. It's mostly about ideology: private insurance and the right to sue for liability versus public compensation and no recourse to litigation.

All you and Katman are doing is providing more fuel to the fire of debate as to wheher ACC should exist or not.

Having the debate is fine, that's how these things come and (hopefully not) go.

However - bleating on about levels of fault and blame whilst NOT having the balls or brains to simply come out and have a debate about the merits of ACC is, not to put too fine a point on it, stupid.

I'll type this quite slowly so you can keep up:

Tying the discussion about motorcyclist safety into the debate about ACC levies is completely self-defeating.

It's a zero-sum game.

if you continue to add to the existing perception that behaviours should be reflected in ACC contributions then it's game over. Pack up bikes - good night and thanks for playing cos we're done.

[Katman]

Stop safety-ing my life out of existence...

Seems preferable to you wishing your life out of existence.

[Toaster]

We are not being targeted because some riders ride somewhat quickly or at times recklessly.

Many of the crashes that make up govt statistics involve motoryclists riding completely within the law with other factors causing the crash....like unattentive drivers in cars.

The issue of exposure to a higher chance of injury is in the event of a crash is of course hard to argue against when its flesh and cordura or leather v metal cage protection.

The problem I have is the amount of the increase is unwarranted and extremely unfair in a system that is supposed to be a no fault scheme. Something the rest of the world is envious of. That envy will no doubt ecrease as we continue to slide towards privtisation and eventual lawsuits etc.

[Toaster]

But of all how you can have so many people hating you yet you keep on going sharing the message unconditionally.

Well seems he cant be that hated since he seem to have a reasonably high green rep level. Someone must agree with him now and then!

[quickbuck]

I have been for the last 25 years I have been riding, yet ACC haven't been doing their job of accident prevention on the roads or for motorcycling. Hell the only acc advert I saw was to try and justify the hikes...

All the drink driving and slow down and look before you cross the intersection aren't coming from ACC, when they should be part of it as well... most of these are Police and LTSA... where is ACC, its there main job is it not?

The Ride Right Courses, while ACC says they are good and support them... why are they not puting their money where their mouth is... why are they not recommending these courses should be part of getting your license. Why are they not sponsing these courses, instead of them the great guys that do run them in the weekends on their own time, basically for the love of motorcycling, make just enough money to cover the costs.

When was the last time you saw a bike awareness advert... we are one of the few countries that don't have them... and there are some great ones on Youtube...

Well, actually ACC do actually try to achieve all those things.
I attend reagonal meetings on a regular basis to come up with ideas for injury prevention etc.
There is aslo a Site (http://www.rideforever.co.nz/) you can visit...
It is a shame the funding is rather low though.....

[NighthawkNZ]

There is aslo a Site (http://www.rideforever.co.nz/) you can visit...
It is a shame the funding is rather low though.....

all very well coming up with ideas... but they need to follow through with the funding and education, website is ok, but if no one knows its there then its a bit of a waste (yes i knew about that site)

[quickbuck]

all very well coming up with ideas... but they need to follow through with the funding and education, website is ok, but if no one knows its there then its a bit of a waste (yes i knew about that site)

Agree.

That is why I have actually invited myself onto the committee, as it became apparent our local meetings weren't actually doing much despite the best intentions of the members.
Got to love civilian committee meetings....
Want to add so much more here, but speaking out of school, and you never know who is watching!

[NighthawkNZ]

Got to love civilian committee meetings.... i know what you mean

Want to add so much more here, but speaking out of school, and you never know who is watching!
;)

[MD]

Just a theory but I suspect there is a far simpler reason ACC has aimed it's cash demand at motorcyclists- best return for the least expenditure.

Just like any business wanting to increase revenue ACC looked for a solution that will bring in more cash while not requiring massive expenditure to do so. Specifically ACC don't want to have to create a raft of new Bureaucracies and infrastuctures to target any new "accident risk" groups.

You go for the easy option first. As a Group 'Road Using' Motorcyclists are the ideal target requiring the least expenditure to collect a levy. We already have to register our bikes- with the levy built in. We already have to display this rego evidence and the Police already do the monitoring for ACC- every roadside chat with a HP will see your licence and rego checked. Free labour for the ACC. Everything is in place..already, no new expenses.

Last weekend there were two mountaineering incidents involving a death and serious injuries to others. In the last two weeks there have been two light aircraft/microlight crashes. I'm sure ACC would like to go after these types and sport players and mountaineers etc But there is simply no mechanism in place to collect and police payments from these people. It's impractical and they know it. Imagine setting up procedures and employing people to do spot checks during rugby/football/hockey games etc across the country. Running on to a sports field with a clip board to check each player has paid an ACC levy! Who is going to climb Mt Cook to check everyone up there has paid their levy?

[Hitcher]

I agree with Katman. Let's all resolve to ride perfectly from this point forward. It's such a blindingly simple proposition that I'm surprised that somebody didn't think of it years ago.

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya. Someone's crying lord, Kumbaya...

[MacD]

The problem I have is the amount of the increase is unwarranted and extremely unfair in a system that is supposed to be a no fault scheme. Something the rest of the world is envious of. That envy will no doubt decrease as we continue to slide towards privtisation and eventual lawsuits etc.

Agreed. What's worse is that international comparisons show that ACC is overall cheaper and more efficient than similar private insurance systems. Even Treasury is unwilling to state (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10604676) that private competition for ACC will result in net cost savings. Why the government is so keen on donating $2 billion of business and $200 million of profit (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10605395) to Australian companies I just don't understand!?

Also Katman gets green rep as he often makes sense, but people don't like the message. The sort of questions he asks are exactly the type of questions we will face in select committee hearings. Motorcyclists underestimate politicians and ACC managers at their peril.

[Toaster]

Agreed. What's worse is that international comparisons show that ACC is overall cheaper and more efficient than similar private insurance systems. Even Treasury is unwilling to state (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10604676) that private competition for ACC will result in net cost savings. Why the government is so keen on donating $2 billion of business and $200 million of profit (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10605395) to Australian companies I just don't understand!?

Also Katman gets green rep as he often makes sense, but people don't like the message. The sort of questions he asks are exactly the type of questions we will face in select committee hearings. Motorcyclists underestimate politicians and ACC managers at their peril.


Agreed... it reminds me of the days when the electricity industry was privatised, split up, sold off.... all in the MP's hopes and statements of cheaper electricity for the consumer.... yeah right.

[Katman]

I agree with Katman. Let's all resolve to ride perfectly from this point forward. It's such a blindingly simple proposition that I'm surprised that somebody didn't think of it years ago.



Hallelujah! Someone that gets where I'm coming from.








(Yes, I do realise your post was just taking the piss).

[Oscar]

So you haven't been paying attention.

The ACC levy issue is only marginally about motorcyclists. It's mostly about ideology: private insurance and the right to sue for liability versus public compensation and no recourse to litigation.

All you and Katman are doing is providing more fuel to the fire of debate as to wheher ACC should exist or not.

Having the debate is fine, that's how these things come and (hopefully not) go.

However - bleating on about levels of fault and blame whilst NOT having the balls or brains to simply come out and have a debate about the merits of ACC is, not to put too fine a point on it, stupid.

I'll type this quite slowly so you can keep up:

Tying the discussion about motorcyclist safety into the debate about ACC levies is completely self-defeating.

It's a zero-sum game.

if you continue to add to the existing perception that behaviours should be reflected in ACC contributions then it's game over. Pack up bikes - good night and thanks for playing cos we're done.

What a load of pretentious crap.

What we were commenting on is the propensity of some motorcycle riders to be their own worst enemy, what you are talking about is some ideologically driven bullshit about ACC.

There has been no comment from either the Govt or ACC about changing the "no-fault" nature of ACC or allowing the right to sue for liability. So the fact that no ones shares your paranoia is no excuses to carrying on like a pompous fuckwit.

And the stupid one here is you, judging by your statement about private insurance. I am an Insurance Underwriter, and I can tell you that I'd rather stick needles in my eyes than insure motorcycles, and/or motorcyclists. The only possible application of private insurance in respect of ACC is in the area of Workers Compensation, which has been conclusively proven to lower premium costs.

[Katman]

Just to keep everyone on topic.........

This thread is not about ACC 'per se'. Rather, it is about why we face the situation we now find ourselves in and what we can do to remedy that problem.

Protesting at parliament is not addressing the crux of the problem.

[Katman]

And yes, I realise that BRONZ's manifesto attempts to address this problem but it will fall on barren soil if we, as a whole, fail to recognise that the problem is far greater than just higher ACC levies.

[Viscount Montgomery]

All this ACC shit came thundering down because of the highly publicized biker carnage that's been constantly happening over the last, say, one, two, or three years. You couldn't fucken miss it, news reports weekend after weekend after weekend after fucken weekend of MOTORCYCLES crashing/head-on collisions/maiming/killing/parapalegics/bloodshed and death.

It's all been shoved via the modern headline-grabbing media damn near daily into the publics faces. All associated with the word MOTORCYCLES. U-turning cops, whole fleets of bikers being taken out by cagers, weekly reports of bikers leaving the road wrapping themselves round powerpoles, hitting bridges, skating on wet roads to their deaths, high speed pursuits, fuckwit squids, carnage, carnage, carnage. Again, all revolving around the word MOTORCYCLE.

Of course it was inevitable that this ACC shit would happen. Too many shit for brains idiots riding motorcycles caused this crap. Only a tiny minority of fuckwits WILL fuck it all for everyone else. That applies to ANYTHING in life. Fucking dreaming if you're thinking otherwise.

These days it takes fuck-all publicity to get the rulebook/regulation nazis to really start hammering their shit home. AND NOW IT'S HAPPENED. Why is anyone surprised??

[dipshit]

Why is anyone surprised??

Because your typical motorcyclist is as thick as pig shit.

[carver]

i love racing on the road

[carver]

Because your typical motorcyclist is as thick as pig shit.

see above post

[caseye]

All this ACC shit came thundering down because of the highly publicized biker carnage that's been constantly happening over the last, say, one, two, or three years. You couldn't fucken miss it, news reports weekend after weekend after weekend after fucken weekend of MOTORCYCLES crashing/head-on collisions/maiming/killing/parapalegics/bloodshed and death.

It's all been shoved via the modern headline-grabbing media damn near daily into the publics faces. All associated with the word MOTORCYCLES. U-turning cops, whole fleets of bikers being taken out by cagers, weekly reports of bikers leaving the road wrapping themselves round powerpoles, hitting bridges, skating on wet roads to their deaths, high speed pursuits, fuckwit squids, carnage, carnage, carnage. Again, all revolving around the word MOTORCYCLE.

Of course it was inevitable that this ACC shit would happen. Too many shit for brains idiots riding motorcycles caused this crap. Only a tiny minority of fuckwits WILL fuck it all for everyone else. That applies to ANYTHING in life. Fucking dreaming if you're thinking otherwise.

These days it takes fuck-all publicity to get the rulebook/regulation nazis to really start hammering their shit home. AND NOW IT'S HAPPENED. Why is anyone surprised??

x 2!
Seems theres more than one person out there who is beginning to see where you are coming from katman.

[Pussy]

All this ACC shit came thundering down because of the highly publicized biker carnage that's been constantly happening over the last, say, one, two, or three years. You couldn't fucken miss it, news reports weekend after weekend after weekend after fucken weekend of MOTORCYCLES crashing/head-on collisions/maiming/killing/parapalegics/bloodshed and death.

It's all been shoved via the modern headline-grabbing media damn near daily into the publics faces. All associated with the word MOTORCYCLES. U-turning cops, whole fleets of bikers being taken out by cagers, weekly reports of bikers leaving the road wrapping themselves round powerpoles, hitting bridges, skating on wet roads to their deaths, high speed pursuits, fuckwit squids, carnage, carnage, carnage. Again, all revolving around the word MOTORCYCLE.

Of course it was inevitable that this ACC shit would happen. Too many shit for brains idiots riding motorcycles caused this crap. Only a tiny minority of fuckwits WILL fuck it all for everyone else. That applies to ANYTHING in life. Fucking dreaming if you're thinking otherwise.

These days it takes fuck-all publicity to get the rulebook/regulation nazis to really start hammering their shit home. AND NOW IT'S HAPPENED. Why is anyone surprised??

That's it!
Perception is everything

[dipshit]

Provide the proof that we as a group are over represented in crash statics.

Try reading the papers on Monday mornings over the summer months. Usually reads "4 killed on the roads over the weekend, 2 of which were motorcyclists."

Weekend after weekend you have a small minority of road users (3.5% of registered vehicles in NZ) making up a large portion of the fatalities.

And NZ land transport figures show 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are rider error.

And most people realise that these bikes are usually only being taken out by their owners on those sunny weekends for a blast.

The high casualty rates with their actual low road usage is why we are seeing claims like 16 times the risk of being injured etc.

[Katman]

And those who refute those figures are those who refuse to believe we have anything to answer to.

[jack_hamma]

I think we are an easy target, figuers don't support it but general rule most feel that motorcycling is risky at the best of times.... easy prey to get support. Ask anyone who's not into or cares about bikes and they would say "oh motorcycling is dangerous isn't it"? or on those lines.

Maybe trucks be next... with all that destructive mass!!

[Katman]

I think we are an easy target, figuers don't support it but general rule most feel that motorcycling is risky at the best of times.... easy prey to get support. Ask anyone who's not into or cares about bikes and they would say "oh motorcycling is dangerous isn't it"? or on those lines.



That's a highly blinkered view you're blessed with.

[Ronin]

Try reading the papers on Monday mornings over the summer months. Usually reads "4 killed on the roads over the weekend, 2 of which were motorcyclists."

Weekend after weekend you have a small minority of road users (3.5% of registered vehicles in NZ) making up a large portion of the fatalities.

And NZ land transport figures show 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are rider error.

And most people realise that these bikes are usually only being taken out by their owners on those sunny weekends for a blast.

The high casualty rates with their actual low road usage is why we are seeing claims like 16 times risk of being injured etc.

Ohhh your taking the mickey ain't ya?

Before your start throwing figures around, make sure they are the correct ones.

Usually is not afaik an acceptable statistical term. Even if it were, it isn't so. Shall we try sometimes instead?

75%? Been under a rock for the last month? Even ACC Only claim around 60% are our fault.

[oldrider]

Just a theory but I suspect there is a far simpler reason ACC has aimed it's cash demand at motorcyclists- best return for the least expenditure.

Just like any business wanting to increase revenue ACC looked for a solution that will bring in more cash while not requiring massive expenditure to do so. Specifically ACC don't want to have to create a raft of new Bureaucracies and infrastuctures to target any new "accident risk" groups.

You go for the easy option first. As a Group 'Road Using' Motorcyclists are the ideal target requiring the least expenditure to collect a levy. We already have to register our bikes- with the levy built in. We already have to display this rego evidence and the Police already do the monitoring for ACC- every roadside chat with a HP will see your licence and rego checked. Free labour for the ACC. Everything is in place..already, no new expenses.

Last weekend there were two mountaineering incidents involving a death and serious injuries to others. In the last two weeks there have been two light aircraft/microlight crashes. I'm sure ACC would like to go after these types and sport players and mountaineers etc But there is simply no mechanism in place to collect and police payments from these people. It's impractical and they know it. Imagine setting up procedures and employing people to do spot checks during rugby/football/hockey games etc across the country. Running on to a sports field with a clip board to check each player has paid an ACC levy! Who is going to climb Mt Cook to check everyone up there has paid their levy?

MD Not really on topic for this thread but have a think about your post with regards to user pays for ACC.

Rather than hitting vehicle registrations the way they suggest, if Gov't levy 2% on tyres (all tyres) for ACC they would spread their net wider and get a greater return and gather from most of those who currently pay nothing as well! (cyclists etc)

Think about it for a while and see how many of the above (and beyond) would then be paying some of their share while in pursuit of their leisure activities!

Everybody uses something with wheels to go about their day to day activities at some time of the day or night

Just something to think about but of course I may be completely wrong!

[Katman]

Ohhh your taking the mickey ain't ya?

Before your start throwing figures around, make sure they are the correct ones.

Usually is not afaik an acceptable statistical term. Even if it were, it isn't so. Shall we try sometimes instead?

75%? Been under a rock for the last month? Even ACC Only claim around 60% are our fault.

Back to school for you, shit for brains.

[jack_hamma]

That's a highly blinkered view you're blessed with.


I think I hear what your saying... just like cars shouldn't we be blessed with all the ad's on TV, all the driving training programs that seem to everywere for cars, it's alittle more harder to find for all that for up skilling bikers?

[dipshit]

75%? Been under a rock for the last month? Even ACC Only claim around 60% are our fault.

And 75% of the FATAL motorcycle accidents. (you know, the ones that make the papers on Monday mornings)
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet.pdf (bottom of page 4)

[dipshit]

Back to school for you, shit for brains.

He's just another typical motorcyclist.

[dipshit]

Maybe trucks be next... with all that destructive mass!!

Trucks did have a good going over a while ago. They were seeing an increase in trucking accidents and did do something about it. That's when they brought in the compulsory rest periods and working hours and stricter logbooks amongst other new regulations.

[BMWST?]

Just a theory but I suspect there is a far simpler reason ACC has aimed it's cash demand at motorcyclists- best return for the least expenditure.

Just like any business wanting to increase revenue ACC looked for a solution that will bring in more cash while not requiring massive expenditure to do so. Specifically ACC don't want to have to create a raft of new Bureaucracies and infrastuctures to target any new "accident risk" groups.

You go for the easy option first. As a Group 'Road Using' Motorcyclists are the ideal target requiring the least expenditure to collect a levy. We already have to register our bikes- with the levy built in. We already have to display this rego evidence and the Police already do the monitoring for ACC- every roadside chat with a HP will see your licence and rego checked. Free labour for the ACC. Everything is in place..already, no new expenses.

Last weekend there were two mountaineering incidents involving a death and serious injuries to others. In the last two weeks there have been two light aircraft/microlight crashes. I'm sure ACC would like to go after these types and sport players and mountaineers etc But there is simply no mechanism in place to collect and police payments from these people. It's impractical and they know it. Imagine setting up procedures and employing people to do spot checks during rugby/football/hockey games etc across the country. Running on to a sports field with a clip board to check each player has paid an ACC levy! Who is going to climb Mt Cook to check everyone up there has paid their levy?

agreed we are the easy target,and the logic IS with them as far as risk of injury is concerned...

[jack_hamma]

Yes that's true, do remember that... Just meaning when they have a crash there impact is far greater.. so there ACC should be high to suit :)

[Katman]

agreed we are the easy target,and the logic IS with them as far as risk of injury is concerned...

We are an easy target only because we make ourselves an easy target.

[BMWST?]

We are an easy target only because we make ourselves an easy target.

HOW do we make ourselves a smaller target.How do we get this transformation in behaviour?How.
Dipshit seems to think we are all past it.

[dipshit]

Yes that's true, do remember that... Just meaning when they have a crash there impact is far greater.. so there ACC should be high to suit :)

Unless the trucking industry did manage to clean up its act (and stop the culture of the blow-hard truck drivers having a wank session down at the local pub bragging about doing this or that run in x amount of time) and reduce the amount of accidents trucks were having. Then there's no need for the ACC bean counters to target them in the first place.

[dipshit]

HOW do we make ourselves a smaller target.How do we get this transformation in behaviour?How.

One way would be to reduce the culture in motorcycling of the blow-hards having a wank session about pulling a wheelie "thiiiiisssss" long or going from A to B in x amount of time and thinking they are shit hot for doing so.

[dipshit]

HOW do we make ourselves a smaller target.How do we get this transformation in behaviour?How.

And stop motorcyclists getting around thinking their shit doesn't stink and most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers.

Perhaps then they may scrutinise their own riding behaviour a bit more.

[Conquiztador]

I can not believe the crap in this thread. I am used to read it from Katman, but there are others starting to emerge. But clearly our money is used to achieve what the Nats are looking for: Propaganda and brainwashing. And sadly it is working.

You guys must have missed what is going on. So for you I will here clarify it:

- National Party tried last time they were in power to privatise ACC. They clearly think it is a brilliant idea. You are allowed to agree with them. I don't. They are now doing the same thing again, but have become a little wiser. Instead of grabbing the whole shaboodle by the balls they will split ACC in to bits and flog it off bit by bit. It is about trying to get the fractions who pay ACC to feel that as they do not participate in what is costing they should not pay for it, so levy the ones who do.
- This is not about bikers costing heaps (Motorcyclists $19,704 per claim, Car Occupants: $24,434 per claim).
- This is not about that there is heaps of us crashing (in 1986 there was over 4000 crashes recorded where a rider or pillion was injured/killed, in 2008 there was approx 1400)
- This is not about prevention and training. (Have anyone heard a ACC spokesperson or someone from Nats talking re increasing the ACC levy so that there will be more spent on stopping bikers from getting injured?)

This IS about politics and selling off ACC. Then you can squabble on here that "We" are responsible and "We" need to all have dayglow vests, indicate a minimum of 3 seconds before we turn and NOT EVER ride faster than the speedlimit. Even if we all start riding like Katman it will make no difference. But you keep on blaming "the fucking idiots who ride like dipshits" and the whispers in the corridors of power will be: "It is working! They are becoming divided".

Focus guys, focus!

[jeffs]

Interesting thread, you have a guy called Katman, who like a great conductor is deliberately keeping alive a thread for the purpose of entertainment. If Katmen was serious about changing peoples attitudes to ride with more care ( and i'm sure he thinks he is ). He would do so by getting people on his side, not driving a wedge between bikers at this important time. Instead he seems to be playing to a willing audience for maximum attention, by using short defamatory statements, at a time when most people are wound up and reeling for a fight.

I think its great that you all let him do this. It shows ACC to win, they don't have to do anything but let bikes fight amongst them self on public forums.

This is neither the time or the place to start pointing fingers at each other, rightly or wrongly. Unless you are doing so for pure entertainment.

Just don't respond to his threads, or just let him keep on playing you like a guitar.

[Reckless]

Interesting thread, you have a guy called Katman, who like a great conductor is deliberately keeping alive a thread for the purpose of entertainment. If Katmen was serious about changing peoples attitudes to ride with more care ( and i'm sure he thinks he is ). He would do so by getting people on his side, not driving a wedge between bikers at this important time. Instead he seems to be playing to a willing audience for maximum attention, by using short defamatory statements, at a time when most people are wound up and reeling for a fight.

I think its great that you all let him do this. It shows ACC to win, they don't have to do anything but let bikes fight amongst them self on public forums.

This is neither the time or the place to start pointing fingers at each other, rightly or wrongly. Unless you are doing so for pure entertainment.

Just don't respond to his threads, or just let him keep on playing you like a guitar.

Amen brother!! I've been on all night working, KB up on my third monitor. I said the same thing way back on page 2 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129515341&postcount=22). Said something similar to you here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129515411&postcount=29) (but not as diplomatically LOL!). Refused to get drawn in by the deliberate taunt here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129515453&postcount=37) and haven't posted till now!

Just wanted to prove your theory jeffs, it is all very predictable isn't it LOL!!! Fun some days though! :bleh:

[davereid]

I can not believe the crap in this thread. I am used to read it from Katman, but there are others starting to emerge. But clearly our money is used to achieve what the Nats are looking for: Propaganda and brainwashing. And sadly it is working.

That was the purpose of my somewhat tongue in cheek reference to riding without a helmet.

Over time, propaganda really works, thats why they use it.

Around 45 years ago, it was common so see a motorcyclist pootling around without a helmet. We were told helmets would save lives, so we accepted their mandatory wearing, first for 50+, then all speeds.

The hype never really matched the facts. Deaths from head injuries remained about the same, and within 10 years we had opened two spinal units to cope with the spinal injuries.

But, 45 years later, a new generation of bikers exists, that it so overwhelmed by the magic of the helmet, that they cant really conceptualise riding without one. They know they need it and stepping out the door without one is clearly a death wish.

This is the same, exept now the target is the motorcycle full-stop.

Make it hard to get a licence (for safey reasons.)

Make it expensive to register (safety.)

Get a bit of biker support, cos its for your own good.

Job done.

In 40 years time, no sane individual would go near the death trap that a motorcycle is.

How parents every let their kids rid 'em I'll never know !

[Viscount Montgomery]

As far as I'm concerned it's all a combination of dick-head bikers on the road and slimy arsehole polititians. Remember just a few years ago, the ACC fund was an overflowing cess-pit of money. There was so much unused cash in the slushfund that the bastards didn't know what to do with it. Fast forward to today and it's apparently now an empty pit. Where the fuck did all that money go?

Sleazeballs Birch and Cullen frittered it all away with mis-management, stupidity and greed. Invested with equally slimy fly-by-night finance companies run by greasy greedy bastard wide-boys. Suddenly fucken billions disappeared and wiped overnight with a stroke of a pen.

None of these arseholes are held accountable. Why the fuck should they worry about it. They got away with raping and pillaging the publics money. They still kept their beemers and audis, gold cuff-links, helicopters and mansions in Remuera.

The slates been wiped clean. bring on the private insurance circus now. The wide-boys will get their slimy tendrils on your money again, quicker than you can blink. Only this time they'll be making three times the profit...

[MSTRS]

Only one thing is absolutely true in this whole subject...
HIDDEN AGENDAS.
You all know how that works...show them this, whilst really doing that.
Hard to fight that when it's on all sides, and when 'some of us' are doing the exact same thing...well, ask yourself.
Fighting amongst ourselves will gain nothing but a win for THEM.
The Nazis found that fighting on too many fronts was a bad idea. Learn from that, guys.
No matter what some might see as the reason/s we find ourselves in this position, the end result of levy hikes is not good for the use/sport of motorcycles. We can't fix it all overnight. Right now we need to focus on overturning the levy hikes, and later look at ways to (further) reduce the accident stats.

[Katman]

This is neither the time or the place to start pointing fingers at each other, rightly or wrongly. Unless you are doing so for pure entertainment.



Indeed.

How rude of ACC to gate crash my party.

[NighthawkNZ]

As far as I'm concerned it's all a combination of dick-head bikers on the road and slimy arsehole polititians. Remember just a few years ago, the ACC fund was an overflowing cess-pit of money. There was so much unused cash in the slushfund that the bastards didn't know what to do with it. Fast forward to today and it's apparently now an empty pit. Where the fuck did all that money go?

I don't call having a 11 billion dollars in the bank going broke and they banked 0.7 billion, 700 million last year, to any business owner thats a profit...

it still is making money... more than enough to cover all costs for now and the future... no change is required

[vifferman]

Steady on Les - it you truly think I'm against Motorcycling you are clearly a couple short of a six pack.
It would be easy to draw that conclusion. While I understand what you're trying to do, the overall tone of your posts seems to be anti-motorcyclists. Perhaps you think that someone has to tell the 'truth' and be a martyr for the cause, and if people revile you for it, then so be it. Your message would certainly be more effective (and your campaign more fruitful) if you didn't use it to bludgeon and alienate your brethren.

[MSTRS]

I don't call having a 11 billion dollars in the bank going broke and they banked 0.7 billion, 700 million last year, to any business owner thats a profit...

it still is making money... more than enough to cover all costs for now and the future... no change is required

Nope. It was much better than that. They have $1B more in the pot AFTER all payouts, AND paid $700M to govt as a 'dividend' (read; TAX)

[Katman]

Your message would certainly be more effective (and your campaign more fruitful) if you didn't use it to bludgeon and alienate your brethren.

(And here was me thinking I'd toned down my approach).:slap:

It doesn't matter what condiments you dress it up with, a shit sandwich is always going to taste like shit.

[Conquiztador]

Nope. It was much better than that. They have $1B more in the pot AFTER all payouts, AND paid $700M to govt as a 'dividend' (read; TAX)

It was pointed out to Craig Foss (at the HB BIKEOI), he tried to tell us that you can have that kind of money but still be broke... Then he changed subject to trying to get support in getting private insurers to cover ACC. He was not hard to read. The agenda is there.

[MSTRS]

It was pointed out to Craig Foss (at the HB BIKEOI), he tried to tell us that you can have that kind of money but still be broke... Then he changed subject to trying to get support in getting private insurers to cover ACC. He was not hard to read. The agenda is there.

He did. And I doubt that he left with any idea that we supported that move.

[oldrider]

It would be easy to draw that conclusion. While I understand what you're trying to do, the overall tone of your posts seems to be anti-motorcyclists. Perhaps you think that someone has to tell the 'truth' and be a martyr for the cause, and if people revile you for it, then so be it. Your message would certainly be more effective (and your campaign more fruitful) if you didn't use it to bludgeon and alienate your brethren.

How many times do you have to be told Katman, you are as bad as those that you condemn! :doh:

[vifferman]

(And here was me thinking I'd toned down my approach).:slap:
The point is, while your intentions are good, and often the core of your message is too, it often reads like you're just trying to pick a fight or piss people off. Do you really want to effect change, and cause a reduction in the motorcyclist road toll and bring about a change of attitude amongst bikers? If so, then perhaps some effort directed toward a little more diplomacy would aid your cause. Perhaps you could put the brick in a sock before bashing people with it? I know you're a biker and on the side of bikers, just anti the stupid things that people do, but it too often sounds like you're attacking your fellow bikers rather than the poor attitudes and actions many of us cling to. A little more cunnning and psychology wouldn't go amiss.
Having said that, there are many recidivists and chronically stupid people amongst us, and they are sadly perhaps a lost cause. You can't save everyone from themselves.

Anyway - don't give up. I guess if even one person 'gets it' then that makes it worthwhile. :niceone:

[Katman]

The point is, while your intentions are good, and often the core of your message is too, it often reads like you're just trying to pick a fight or piss people off.

Don't be fooled - the meek aren't going to inherit the earth.

:msn-wink:

[AD345]

Don't be fooled - the meek aren't going to inherit the earth.

:msn-wink:

Fortunately - neither are you

[short-circuit]

So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

Regardless of what degree of success we have from Tuesday's protest ride (and any subsequent protest action), if there is not a visible attempt to clean up our own backyard then we will find ourselves being targeted over and over again.

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[paddy]

So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?

Will those who, in the past, have seen no problem with groups of motorcyclists treating public roads as racetracks, sit there scratching their heads wondering why we are being singled out or will they see this current ACC furore as a 'wake up call' to modify their behaviour?

Regardless of what degree of success we have from Tuesday's protest ride (and any subsequent protest action), if there is not a visible attempt to clean up our own backyard then we will find ourselves being targeted over and over again.

I think the issue is much more complex than you are portraying, but I do concede you have a point. Within any group there are always going to be those who do not play by the rules. In the car world we label them boy racers. And we separate them from ourselves because clearly we do not drive like that so they must be different to us.

There are also boy racers on motorcycles, and if you don't ride a motorcycle safely yourself, but just drive a car, then it is easy to paint ALL motorcyclists as boy racers. After all, safe riding doesn't stand out.

The biker community is not immune from this. Just read through the posts on this site dedicated to "idiot cagers", or "stupid cagers". Because clearly no-one knows how to drive except those that ride a motorcycle. Now logically, we know this is not true, but as a community our rhetoric does not reflect this.

The difference between the two scenarios is that we are the minority so we need to behave that much better than everyone else. Do I believe for a second that will happen? No. I think that would require a fundamental shift in the average New Zealander's attitude toward road use.

The interesting thing is that, even in countries like Germany where EXTENSIVE driver training is a requirement, unsafe and discourteous driving is still commonplace.

[paddy]

Anyway - don't give up. I guess if even one person 'gets it' then that makes it worthwhile. :niceone:

That was a really encouraging thing to say and I couldn't agree more. KiwiBiker can often be about tearing people down rather than building community.

[jeffs]

Katman answer these truthfully ( without just saying " I told you so, look back at all my old posts" ).

Do you believe increasing our bike levies by 300% will reduce the accident rate and change the way people ride ?.
Do you believe that without pressure being applied, ACC will reinvest any of the extra money they collect in rider education ?
Do you believe that the money they may invest, (after pressure has been applied), will be enough to make any difference to the accident rates ?
Do you believe that ACC are increasing the levies for the same reasons you have been writing about ?
Have you ever had a woops moment due to driver error ?
Have you ever had to take evasive action to avoid car or van on the road that may not have see you ?
Have you ever ( in you long riding history ) ever ridden over the posted speed limit ?

Katman there will always be bad riders, there will always be crime , there will always be war. It is the nature of the human race.

Making people pay more for what every one else gets for less, will not solve the rider crash rate.

As much as you like to tell people they all brought this on them selfs, the ACC do not have your high agenda, it simply wants more money.

If you honestly believe different, you are as beyond help as the people you ridicule.

That all said you are right, there needs to be a better way, one that will work, and no person would argue with that, but because of your provocative posts, no one is listening to your message. And you even ridicule the one who are trying to make a change.

Unfortunately answer is not a 300% increase in levies.

[Bass]

Unfortunately answer is not a 300% increase in levies.

I can't find a single one of his posts where he said that it was the answer.
What I understand him to be saying is that if we don't clean up our act then this is just the beginning. There are several who disagree with him and some vehemently so, mostly claiming that cleaning up our act will make no difference and that this change is driven by a political agenda. However, he has been predicting our current situation for some considerable time and has now been proven correct.
Could he also be correct about the future from here?

[FROSTY]

I think the core of katmans arguement is that WE as bikers have made ourselves the easy target.
Imagine if the announcement from ACC was that rugby players would have to pay ACC levvies at every game. The nation would be in an uproar.
So we do need to ask -"why have we become seen as an easy target"
One strong arguement is of course that the tarriffs on jap import cars was removed so an entire generation (or two) are no longer bikers or ex bikers. -It was cheap enough to get into a car.
as a result those that do ride mostly do so as a recreational choice rather than/as well as as a means of transport.
Theres also the perception that riding a bike is for the rich to do as a hobby and for the nasty scum who have loud bikes and pop wheelies on yellow lines in heavy traffic (as an example). the rich guys can afford it and really the scum should be in jail where they belong.

As a biking community we could probably do with another add campaighn like the honda one way back in the 60's --You meet the NICEST people on a Honda.

[Katman]

What I understand him to be saying is that if we don't clean up our act then this is just the beginning.


I think the core of katmans arguement is that WE as bikers have made ourselves the easy target.


See people? - Some of us 'get it'.

[PrincessBandit]

I think the core of katmans arguement is that WE as bikers have made ourselves the easy target.
Imagine if the announcement from ACC was that rugby players would have to pay ACC levvies at every game. The nation would be in an uproar.



My mum said that as a young sports player you weren't allowed to play if you didn't have insurance. (She's on the other side of 70, so it was some time ago...) I don't see why rugby players shouldn't be paying an ACC levy for every game they play. Oh yeah, I do know why they don't: sports is our national religion.

Oh and while on that note, the meek will inherit the earth one day Steve :msn-wink:

(you know I couldn't resist)

[Katman]

Oh and while on that note, the meek will inherit the earth one day Steve :msn-wink:

(you know I couldn't resist)

I'll fight you for it.

[MSTRS]

See people? - Some of us 'get it'.

Come on KM...dig reeeeeally deep...and just answer the guy. They are fair questions. His question/s did not include the 'why has this happened'.

[Katman]

Do you believe increasing our bike levies by 300% will reduce the accident rate and change the way people ride ?.

Of course it won't. A change in motorcyclists attitudes will though.


Do you believe that without pressure being applied, ACC will reinvest any of the extra money they collect in rider education ?

I would doubt it.


Do you believe that the money they may invest, (after pressure has been applied), will be enough to make any difference to the accident rates ?

Possibly - who knows?


Do you believe that ACC are increasing the levies for the same reasons you have been writing about ?

Of course I do. Are you dense?


Have you ever had a woops moment due to driver error ?

Of course I have.


Have you ever had to take evasive action to avoid car or van on the road that may not have see you ?

Of course I have. I've also had to take evasive action to avoid a number of motorcyclists who have certainly seen me but have simply been far out-riding their meagre ability.


Have you ever ( in you long riding history ) ever ridden over the posted speed limit ?

Point me to one single post where I have said "Never exceed the posted speed limit".



(Happy John?)

[Hitcher]

The answer my friend
Is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

[caseye]

Katman, she'll win bro You know this! on ya for answering the questions, for the record, I get it and I get that there isn't one of us here that is squeaky clean, so lets get away from casting naspursions and concentrate on what can be done.

[PrincessBandit]

Katman, she'll win bro You know this! on ya for answering the questions, for the record, I get it and I get that there isn't one of us here that is squeaky clean, so lets get away from casting naspursions and concentrate on what can be done.

Do you mean casting nasturtiums? :msn-wink:

[caseye]

I taught I did, butt noew I'm not suure! LOl Go easy on him PB.

[MSTRS]

(Happy John?)


Deliriously so. A carmine epistle day, it is.

[Katman]

Deliriously so. A carmine epistle day, it is.

Really? You must be easily impressed.

Anyone with half a brain could have figured out what my answers would be without having to ask.

[Ronin]

Really? You must be easily impressed.

Anyone with half a brain could have figured out what my answers would be without having to ask.

So you didn't have to ask then?

[jeffs]

Thanks for answering this "half brains" questions :)

I must be half brained. Because, yes I did not know what your answers would be, because as much as you may be insulted by this, I do not know you :)

Yes you are right there are bad riders.

Some of these bad riders may even be trained to change their ways.

But there are also people who try to be good riders. Ones who try to ride within their ability, because they know they are not immortal.

These riders also face some of the same risks every time they ride ( loose gravel, bad car drivers,.... )

Some of these riders do not ride with other bikers, they use their mopeds, scooters, bikes to commute, so can not influence the riding style of other riders.

And these riders are also going have to pay more.

And why, because ACC have changed they way they wish to be funded, and to be self funded, need more money.

And if this had not changed and ACC still ran a pay as you go scheme, ACC may one day have attempted to reduce the injury rate by investing more money towards educating bikers. Or even running adds like the Cross road add they run for cars, but saying "look out for bikes, it costs us money if you hit them".

But no, all they have done is proposed an increase in charges to cover the projected costs of running a self funding scheme.

ACC have just sat back and watched the injury rate increase over time and done nothing.

[Katman]

ACC have just sat back and watched the injury rate increase over time and done nothing.

Unfortunately, neither have us motorcyclists.

[MSTRS]

Unfortunately, neither have us motorcyclists.

I'm not so sure about that. When I started riding in the 1970s, hardly anyone wore (appropriate) gear, me included. The gear at the time was not of a high crash-worthy standard. It was perhaps prohibitively expensive. Those that could afford it, opted for the early fullface helmets, and often ended up with broken necks, because they were so heavy. There were no courses aimed at motorcyclists. The best you could do was a defensive driving course, which was totally theoretical, based in a classroom of an evening and had no m/c component at all. I rode through to the mid-80s and all I ever wore was helmet (openface with a visor), jeans, shoes, ski jacket and gloves for warmth. I was no exception.
I took up riding again in the 90s and little had changed (at least for me), but gradually I got proper gear, and today, apart from the 'bullet-proof' idiots, most riders have good gear. There are also the likes of RRRS. There is KB etc, for some to use as a learning tool.
The injury rate is NOT increasing. As a % of bikes on the road, it is fairly static or going down, and the death rate is definitely down.
That is not to say we can relax, though.

[dipshit]

I'm not so sure about that. When I started riding in the 1970s, hardly anyone wore (appropriate) gear

And remember the compulsory use of helmets is another one of those laws forced upon us by the "nanny state" :beer: which the likes of BRONZ tried to oppose.

I wouldn't exactly say motorcyclists have tried to make motorcycling safer.

[Swoop]

Oh and while on that note, the meek will inherit the earth one day...
It will be a very short day, since the strong will take it back, immediately.

[Ronin]

Unfortunately, neither have us motorcyclists.

It seems to me that perhaps your view is based on the behaviour of the idiotic few rather than the majority? From the time I spend on the road I reckon that the idiot bike makes up maybe 1% of the bikes seen. Hi vis vests are common. Riders make informed choices about tyres and gear etc.

Sure there are those who will never or who are slow to learn but that shouldn't condemn us as a group.

[Ronin]

It will be a very short day, since the strong will take it back, immediately.

With extreme prejudice.

[Grubber]

And I fall somewhere in the middle of those two views. I agree there are those out there who tarnish the image we would perhaps prefer to have, but it is not up to us as a group to 'rein them in'. That is a job for the police. And physics. The crash stats of the loose units may not be flash, but they aren't enough in the big picture to get to where we are at right now.
The recent new laws for boi-racers are a result of a certain type of car driver. But it's not all car drivers that have led to those laws, is it? But those are laws about behaviour. If car drivers were being asked to pay more because of the boi-racer stats, think of the uproar there would be. We motorcyclists are no different.

Been trying to think how i feel about all this and finding a way to put it into words. The above does just that. I think this is it for me too. Thanks for that.

[MSTRS]

And remember the compulsory use of helmets is another one of those laws forced upon us by the "nanny state" :beer: which the likes of BRONZ tried to oppose.

I wouldn't exactly say motorcyclists have tried to make motorcycling safer.

I'm not sure that anyone could describe Norm Kirk's govt of being the Nanny State type. They did bring in the helmet law, and seatbelt use in cars too. Nearly 40 years down the track and how many still don't/won't do up their seatbelt? Very rare is the time when a rider doesn't have a helmet on (well, on the road, at least).
And if motorcyclists haven't done a thing to make it safer, why is it that we have courses and a range of gear that didn't exist 40 years ago? Because, despite the business opportunity, it is really only motorcycle enthusiasts that get into this sort of thing.

[Katman]

Sure there are those who will never or who are slow to learn but that shouldn't condemn us as a group.

I agree - it shouldn't.

However, the general public and the powers that be (i.e. those who can make our lives a misery) don't see it quite the same way.

[Swoop]

Nearly 40 years down the track and how many still don't/won't do up their seatbelt?

Could this be passive eugenics in action?
I am calling for a scene Holocaust. the complete eradication of juvenile stupidity. the way Darwin would want it. the way Mother Nature would want it. George Carlin said it the best "entirely too many lives are being saved by airbags and batting helmets... think of it as passive eugenics."

Or is it passive suicide?
An act of intentionally killing oneself without active effort.

:scratch:

[MSTRS]

I reckon that it's proof that behaviours and attitudes take a very long time to modify.
And in that respect, bikers are no better or worse than other roadusers.

[peasea]

I reckon that it's proof that behaviours and attitudes take a very long time to modify.
And in that respect, bikers are no better or worse than other roadusers.

Correct. How long did it take for drunk driving to become socially unacceptable? It used to be something of a 'right of passage' to get trollied and 'run the gauntlet' to get home (sometimes at high speed) and boast about it the next night in the pub. Then, mad as it might be, the perp then became the chosen driver coz he/she can 'do it'.

They were nutty times. Glad it's (mostly) a thing of the past but you'll never get complete compliance, just like speeding. I still exceed the speed limit regularly but I do it sober so in MY view I'm the safer rider than the pissed bugger at 50kph.

[jeffs]

Unfortunately, neither have us motorcyclists.


One day you will come off on a gravel corner covered in stones you had thrown first.

[caseye]

One day you will come off on a gravel corner covered in stones you had thrown first.

Not so sure your'e right there, but I liked the analogy.

[Katman]

One day you will come off on a gravel corner covered in stones you had thrown first.

Wow, that's deep.

You're forgetting about my super powers though.

[jeffs]

wow, that's deep.

You're forgetting about my super powers though.

.......... :)

[Ronin]

I agree - it shouldn't.

However, the general public and the powers that be (i.e. those who can make our lives a misery) don't see it quite the same way.

ok, this has been pissing me off since I read it......

It's just not right that we agree on something.



I feel dirty

:msn-wink:

[jeffs]

For what its worth Katman, I'm pissed off with the ACC because I don't own a Super cape like you, so I try not to ride like an ass, even if my wife has my life well insured.

As some one on this thread once said "Don't be fooled - the meek aren't going to inherit the earth."

But come the day of reckoning the sanctimonious will have to pay up like the rest of us.

[Katman]

But come the day of reckoning the sanctimonious will have to pay up like the rest of us.

Hey, I've been called worse.

:msn-wink:

[jeffs]

Hey, I've been called worse.

:msn-wink:

Good night Katman

[jeffs]

Well it was going to be goodnight, but my last post turned me into a "Fair weather rider". I really do resent that, I commute in all weathers, that's why I bought a bike. :(

[oldrider]

I agree with Katman. Let's all resolve to ride perfectly from this point forward. It's such a blindingly simple proposition that I'm surprised that somebody didn't think of it years ago.

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya. Someone's crying lord, Kumbaya...

Reality is, that even if motorcyclists did achieve "Katman utopia" and ride 100% accordingly, it would make not one iota of difference to the ACC situation! :rolleyes:

The ACC question is about political idealism and has nothing to do with motorcycles or safety! :nono:

Katman.....Confucius said, "if you open a window, you are bound to let in a few flies".

There will always be a few who stand apart from the ideals of the mob and this will never change! (thankfully, IMHO)

I believe motorcycling is as highly accepted and/or respected today as it has ever been in my lifetime!

Perhaps if you concentrated on the positives instead of focussing obsessively on the negatives, you might be able to see more "good" motorcyclist examples than you apparently do now!

Take a little time out, play Kenny Rogers singing "the gambler", listen to the words and give the real Katman a chance to re-emerge from the ashes of this doomed crusade!

In saying this I do respect your integrity and the effort you have made but I think you are probably doing more damage than good now. IMHO.

[gwigs]

After reading all eleven pages of this post I have now lost the will to live.
:yawn::yawn::yawn:
Give it a rest Katman.

[Katman]

Perhaps if you concentrated on the positives instead of focussing obsessively on the negatives, you might be able to see more "good" motorcyclist examples than you apparently do now!



If we continue to ignore the negative aspects that many riders bring to Motorcycling they will continue to drag us further down.

I have too high a regard for Motorcycling to feebly sit back and let that happen.

[oldrider]

If we continue to ignore the negative aspects that many riders bring to Motorcycling they will continue to drag us further down.

I have too high a regard for Motorcycling to feebly sit back and let that happen.

Likewise, I have too high a regard for Katman than to sit back and watch him foolishly self destruct!

Would you risk your "entire motorcycle" by recklessly trying to squeeze the absolute last inth of wear out of your tyres? (false economy)

That's what you are doing to "Katman" by obsessively pursuing perfection from people that you can not control or influence!

You have turned "Katman the careing" into a boring "Zealot" that the readers you try to reach simply ignore!

It's like trying to teach pigs to fly!

The pig's are never ever going to fly and all you will ever achieve is to piss all the pigs off! :yes:

You may have become a reflection of that which you despise! :Oops:

There is nothing more can be said about this really! :mellow:

[Katman]

That's what you are doing to "Katman" by obsessively pursuing perfection from people that you can not control or influence!



Care to point out where I've ever asked for perfection?

Fuck - I'd be happy with just an improvement!

[Viscount Montgomery]

Yippee! It's all been sorted and it's all OK now. The poisonous bung-eyed dwarf Smith will only enforce a $224.12 increase to all the lucky 600cc riders, down from earlier proposals of $258.74. HeHe, Nick must have been just jiving the first time. A bit of light-hearted political jesting is a bit naughty, but hey you can't complain now. This reduction shows that he really is a genuine nice guy. Thanks Nick.


The news is just as good for the over 600cc crowd too, Nick has adjusted the earlier proposals of $493.00 down to a paltry $445.92. Now that really is a fantastic result! I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Nick and all the naughty mischievous squids out there, who with all their amusing hi-jinks over the last few years nearly had us all in trouble for a while.

It hasn't turned out too bad at all. Keep up the public-road racing and hooning guys, this result shows you weren't in the wrong after all. My apologies. Thanks again and merry christmas.

[snuffles]

I for one agree, whilst we can all sit here and bitch about ACC hikes, we also have to remember that we are not the kings of the road and many of us, have made and will continue to make poor choices in , gear, speed , conditions, riding ability.
I am not happy about the increse in costs , but do understand them. If we as a collective started to think defensively( riding wise) , we may be able to change the trend. But alas, i think it will never happen

[MSTRS]

I for one agree, whilst we can all sit here and bitch about ACC hikes, we also have to remember that we are not the kings of the road and many of us, have made and will continue to make poor choices in , gear, speed , conditions, riding ability.
I am not happy about the increse in costs , but do understand them. If we as a collective started to think defensively( riding wise) , we may be able to change the trend. But alas, i think it will never happen

Spent your 30 pieces yet?

Motorcyclists as a group are not to blame. It is a relative few that have supposedly dragged us to this point.
If all the law abiding car drivers were told they had to pay more because of those that didn't wear seltbelts etc, what do you think they'd have to say about that?

[Katman]

Spent your 3 pieces yet?



What the fuck is wrong with you?

You're implying someone's a Judas because they don't agree with your line of thinking?

And you have the nerve to suggest I'm sanctimonious?

(And it was 30 pieces btw).

[MSTRS]

What the fuck is wrong with you?
You're implying someones a Judas because they don't agree with your line of thinking?

Not at all. Just pointing out the fallacy that collectively we are the agents of our misfortune. And 'understanding' the increases is the first step onto the slippery slope of accepting those increases.


(And it was 30 pieces btw).
Whoops. Fixed.

[Katman]

Not at all. Just pointing out the fallacy that collectively we are the agents of our misfortune. And 'understanding' the increases is the first step onto the slippery slope of accepting those increases.



No, a minority of dickheads are the agents of our misfortune.

Collectively we are guilty of complacency.

[MSTRS]

No, a minority of dickheads are the agents of our misfortune.

Collectively we are guilty of complacency.

Glad you said that.

So we AREN'T better than car drivers? Damn...

[gwigs]

There will always be a percentage of motorcyclists(on and off road),car drivers,truck drivers,cyclists,scuba divers,fishermen..the list goes on and on,who will take risks and behave irresponsibly... You wont change that.
Are we all to be collectively responsible for everybody ?

[MSTRS]

Are we all to be collectively responsible for everybody ?

Of course not. That'd be inequitable. It'll just be those in your currently targeted risk-group.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129545680&postcount=13

[Katman]

Are we all to be collectively responsible for everybody ?

Maybe not, but if we collectively condemned irresponsible behaviour instead of saying "Cool video man" or just silently tut tutting to ourselves then maybe we'd see a reduction in the number of accidents due to nothing other than stupidity.

After all, drink driving has become socially unacceptable due largely to peer pressure.

[Maha]

Maybe not, but if we collectively condemned irresponsible behaviour instead of saying "Cool video man" or just silently tut tutting to ourselves then maybe we'd see a reduction in the number of accidents due to nothing other than stupidity.

After all, drink driving has become social unacceptable due largely to peer pressure.

I pointed out (after viewing a video of the Coro Loop) that one particular bike passing car bit, that that was fuckin unbeleivable. Passing on a tight left hander and there was a car in his lane. Yes he made it round, but the first bike that passed binned on the very next corner, thanks for the evidence Ducati_Hard.

[StoneY]

After all, drink driving has become social unacceptable due largely to peer pressure.

And thats why the Police are reporting the highest drink driving conviction takes in a decade.... massive rise in last 24 months

Its all good for a period, then old habits return
Peer pressure isnt enough

Start really hurting them, take the vehicles, take the licenses, jail for disqualified driving etc.....

Bah, I dont have the answer, dunno if anyone has, bloody Kiwi's are just bad drivers (me included despite my past years in trucks etc)

[sinfull]

But wasn't the protest ride a hoot ? I for one have never passed so many bikes in my life !

[MSTRS]

But wasn't the protest ride a hoot ? I for one have never passed so many bikes in my life !

Yeah, but we were all going the other way, Doofus.... :devil2:

[sinfull]

Yeah, but we were all going the other way, Doofus.... :devil2:
cixelsid si em John you know that, it felt good at the time !!!

[Kickaha]

So we AREN'T better than car drivers? Damn...

We never have been better, thats just bullshit put out by Motorcyclists for decades to make them selves feel superior to other road users

[MSTRS]

Irony is not your strong point?

[jeffs]

Katman I just sat through the news tonight and listened to the report on the bikers protest yesterday.

The whole point was lost in 10 seconds, all Nick Smith had to do was say, " A 40year old biker earning over $80K a year if he is layed up with a back injury, over 4 years will cost ACC $4M, so the levies must go up"

Katman, you may think I am a wanker, but I do not think I ride like a wanker ! I have never pulled a wheely since I was 18years old , i'm over 40 and I earn over $80K.

To try and improve my riding skills on the road, in 3 weeks I am going to do a track day. My first ever track day.

If I come off on that day, I could be one of those statistics used in the news report. What the F**K has your definition of bad riding got to do with ACC levy increases, based on this ?

If my potential crash involved be doing mindless overtaking, I would agree.

Are you saying I'm a dick because I want to do a track day and therefor will put my self at a higher risk ? And I should stay at home an die of old age ?

I joined KB to just say

" I DO NOT WANT TO PAY $750 ACC LEVY , do you want one more bike in your protests ? "

You are right, i'll keep away from ACC threads, just pay my $500 extra, and spend my time talking to people who take people on face value, and do not per-judge everyone who rides a bike, or label them a wanker, because its fun.

Yes some people ride like twats, but that is not why they are putting up levies. It's because whether I fall off on a track day, or if I sit a lights and get rear ended by a car, end up with a broken back, ACC say I will cost them $4M, and ACC say bikers should pay.

You have been saying Bikers are their own worst enemy's for so long, you have lost your ability have any other view. Or worse you just don't care, because its fun to wind up ACC protesters.

[Katman]

Katman, you may think I am a wanker, but I do not think I ride like a wanker ! I have never pulled a wheely since I was 18years old , i'm over 40 and I earn over $80K.

To try and improve my riding skills on the road, in 3 weeks I am going to do a track day. My first ever track day.

If I come off on that day, I could be one of those statistics used in the news report. What the F**K has your definition of bad riding got to do with ACC levy increases, based on this ?

If my potential crash involved be doing mindless overtaking, I would agree.

Are you saying I'm a dick because I want to do a track day and therefor will put my self at a higher risk ? And I should stay at home an die of old age ?


Jeffs, jeffs, jeffs............:oi-grr:

You really have no idea what I'm on about, do you?

[Conquiztador]

Jeffs, jeffs, jeffs............:oi-grr:

You really have no idea what I'm on about, do you?

That makes two of you. ;)

[snuffles]

Spent your 30 pieces yet?

Motorcyclists as a group are not to blame. It is a relative few that have supposedly dragged us to this point.
If all the law abiding car drivers were told they had to pay more because of those that didn't wear seltbelts etc, what do you think they'd have to say about that?

You know what pisses me off the most with the above statement?? It doesnt seem to matter what you say on this site, some wanker wants to destroy it.

I personally dont give a shit about the rest of you... I will however be making sure that I think before riding. I could spend my entire life balming every other cunt for my actions, but I choose to make a difference.

So in Summary FUCKOFF all of you.

There....that feels better.......I know some arsehole is going to want to comment, so bring it on:laugh:

[MSTRS]

I personally dont give a shit about the rest of you... I will however be making sure that I think before riding. I could spend my entire life blaming every other cunt for my actions, but I choose to make a difference.


As do I. And we are not the only ones. Which is the point we are both making.
The so-called 'common knowledge that all bikers are idiots' is soooo wrong. It is akin to stating that, because some drivers don't wear a seltbelt, or don't pay attention at intersections, etc that all car drivers are idiots.
I for one won't accept higher rego levies because of the idiot-factor. In saying that, the proposed rises have less to do with idiots, than they do with faulty logic on the part of ACC and Govt.

[Katman]

The so-called 'common knowledge that all bikers are idiots' is soooo wrong. It is akin to stating that, because some drivers don't wear a seltbelt, or don't pay attention at intersections, etc that all car drivers are idiots.


No point preaching that to us.

I can't imagine that anyone on here believes that "all bikers are idiots".

I doubt even the most anti-motorcycle car driver, if pushed to answer truthfully, would say that "all bikers are idiots".

The trouble is, the idiot bikers out there are doing their level best to give the impression that we are all idiots.

[Ronin]

The trouble is, the idiot bikers out there are doing their level best to give the impression that we are all idiots.

Jesus wept. Is that a change in the wind I detect?

[Ronin]

You know what pisses me off the most with the above statement?? It doesnt seem to matter what you say on this site, some wanker wants to destroy it.

I personally dont give a shit about the rest of you... I will however be making sure that I think before riding. I could spend my entire life balming every other cunt for my actions, but I choose to make a difference.

So in Summary FUCKOFF all of you.

There....that feels better.......I know some arsehole is going to want to comment, so bring it on:laugh:

Seems a bit silly to post a comment in a forum designed for such and be upset when your comment is commented upon.

Grow a thicker skin or turn the computer off dude. It's only teh interweb™

[Katman]

Jesus wept. Is that a change in the wind I detect?

Why? Have you been pulling faces again?

[PrincessBandit]

It is akin to stating that, because some drivers don't wear a seltbelt, or don't pay attention at intersections, etc that all car drivers are idiots.

I thought that's what everyone thought anyway on this website? :msn-wink:

[jeffs]

Jeffs, jeffs, jeffs............:oi-grr:

You really have no idea what I'm on about, do you?


I do get what you are about Katman, I see it every time I log in to KB :)


"A tendency among riders is to absolve themselves of responsibility for their own safety. Instead, they blame external factors, such as road surfaces and other drivers, for imposing danger on them. It's very easy, especially when confident of your own skills, to scapegoat exterior variables rather than consider how you could ride more safely".

And guess what, in the right context you are not just right, but 150% right, I have absolutely no argument on your statement above.

but in context, and your context does not fit all situations. And that is what you seem to have lost the ability to see.

And the ACC levy increase is an example of incorrect context.

ACC have told everyone what there argument is, and sometimes I think no one on this site is listening ( sorry for the one that do get it ).


I am not justifying the following, just regurgitating it, ( but just so you know where I stand, think its Bull S**t)

The Simple ACC View .

1. In ACC's eyes the demographic of motorbiking in NZ has changed.
2. There are more older higher payed bikers on bigger bikes. Because higher payed people can afford bigger bikes.
3. If a higher payed biker crashes and it required time off work, ACC have to cover 80% of their pay.
4. This means ACC are projecting an increase in costs that is not being covered by the existing levies, and that cost is weighted to bigger bikes.

At no point has ACC said it is because of maniac bikers crashing because they are bad or indifferent to the affect their riding style has on the view of the public.

By definition " Older, higher payed bikers, with families to support are generally not maniac riders."

Even if you cleared up every single bad rider, ACC's argument would still stand ( in their eyes ).

And to prove that point, ACC have included NO additional education program to reduce the accident rate in conjunction with the levies.

Do you get me now ?

:)

Smile added, because i'm sick of fighting you over this and not putting my energy to better use.

[Katman]

Do you get me now ?



What this thread is about far exceeds any poxy ACC bitchfest.

As I've said - you clearly haven't got a clue what I on about.

[snuffles]

Seems a bit silly to post a comment in a forum designed for such and be upset when your comment is commented upon.

Grow a thicker skin or turn the computer off dude. It's only teh interweb™

Fuck off:2guns:

[snuffles]

now that was not a very grown up thing for me to say.......quickly, let me find some one else to blame:shit:

[Ronin]

Fuck off:2guns:


No










10fc

[jeffs]

As I've said - you clearly haven't got a clue what I on about.

yes, you are too complex for me

[Katman]

yes, you are too complex for me

Here's a clue.

Go back and read the first post again.

[jeffs]

.So how many on here are prepared to consider why we find ourselves in the current situation that we do?



I did thats my point. What is yours ?

[Katman]

I did thats my point. What is yours ?

You're really hard work jeffs.

1. Motorcyclists crash lots.
2. Figures show that we are responsible for the majority of those crashes.
3. The public sees us crashing lots.
4. The general public says "those motorcyclists are idiots and are costing us money"
5. The government says "hey, we've got an idea for getting this proposal accepted by the general public".
6. All hell breaks loose upon motorcyclists.

What's the answer?

It's simple - crash less.

I'm not going to spell it out any clearer for you.

If you still don't get it, go back to your Playstation.

[jeffs]

I'm not going to spell it out any clearer for you. If you still don't get it, go back to your Playstation.

I don't own a playstation, I own an open mind :)

[caseye]

There it is everyone, no one can say they don't know where Katman is coming from.
It's up to each and everyone of us to do the best we can to become better, safer riders.We fail, we get hurt, the public sees that and sides with the gubbermint.
I agree with Katman.

[Katman]

I don't own a playstation, I own an open mind :)

What, with lots of wind blowing through it?

[jeffs]

So you say to any one who does not agree with you.

I suspect since it is not your view, you did not even read my view, or just dismissed it as "wind"

[Ixion]

It is pertinent to note that ACC have been trying to do this for at least 5 years. They have brought it up in proposals every year. But, until this year, the ACC Minister said "no way".

The difference is this year the Minister has a different agenda.

It's not a "public hate motoryclists" thing. They don't. Nothing to do with "the situation we find ourselves in"

It's a "Government wants to restructure ACC " thing.

The only relevance is that we cost ACC more money than we provide. But a levy structure where we pay the same as cars, or not a lot more, that's probably always going to be the case. No steel shell means that we will cost more for the same accident rate.

To break even we either have to have an accident rate WAY less than cars (probably down below the random event level) , or else pay more in levies. Or, ACC accept that cost more <> levy more. Which the last government accepted. This one doesn't. Simple as that

[Katman]

Simple as that

Why then have I heard you mumble under your breath many times "Perhaps we could all just try to fall over less"?

[Oscar]

There is a certain amount of irony in the fact that some Motorcyclists do try to project an image of being dangerous and/or windswept and/or interesting and now that perception is working against us.


Just saying...

[jeffs]

"We should fall over less"

I should hope this is every bikers bed time mantra.

Good on you Ixion :)

[jeffs]

perception is working against us.


Sorry Oscar Not meaning to shoot you down, not my intention:)

But What us ? There are so many people arguing over this on this site, there does not feel like an us.

Sorry to ask, Ixion is there another biker web site in NZ, one where people do not just fight ?

I have been on rides with Ixion, and I know where he is coming from, I don't get people like Katman, and thats a world I want to stay in.

[Oscar]

Sorry Oscar Not meaning to shoot you down, not my intention:)

But What us ? There are so many people arguing over this on this site, there does not feel like an us.

Sorry to ask, Ixion is there another biker web site in NZ, one where people do not just fight ?

I have been on rides with Ixion, and I know where he is coming from, I don't get people like Katman, and thats a world I want to stay in.

I agree.
There is no Us .
There is no cogent group.
That's why ACC can do what they're doing.

My comment was partly directed at the fact that some motorcyclists' attitudes and actions affect other motorcyclists. And yes, this is inherently unfair - some car drivers are wankers, but they get to have their own group: "boy racers" or "hoons".

But motorcyclists are all "bikers" (how I loath that word) to the general public. I guarantee that when any non-motorcyclist you know saw the pic/video of Carver on the Fairfield Bridge, they thought of you.

That's what we're stuck with, so if Katman wants to try and change it (even a little bit), from within - more power to his arm.

[DMNTD]

That's what we're stuck with, so if Katman wants to try and change it (even a little bit), from within - more power to his arm.

Agreed......

[Ixion]

Why then have I heard you mumble under your breath many times "Perhaps we could all just try to fall over less"?

Perhaps because "falling over" tends to leave bleeding injured or dead bikers?

Or , to turn your question on its head, if you had an absolute guarantee that there would be no ACC rises no matter how many bikers were killed or injured , would you then stop bothering to try to persuade people to ride safely?

No, nor would I .

Bikers not being killed or injured is something to strive for in its own right. No just because the crashes cost money.

[MSTRS]

Bikers not being killed or injured is something to strive for in its own right. Not just because the crashes cost money.

Blingo !! :mellow:

[PrincessBandit]

Perhaps because "falling over" tends to leave bleeding injured or dead bikers?

Or , to turn your question on its head, if you had an absolute guarantee that there would be no ACC rises no matter how many bikers were killed or injured , would you then stop bothering to try to persuade people to ride safely?

No, nor would I .

Bikers not being killed or injured is something to strive for in its own right. No just because the crashes cost money.


Blingo !! :mellow:

Soooo, now we sit back and wait for it to happen. Holding breath for 20 seconds so far....

[Kickaha]

Soooo, now we sit back and wait for it to happen. Holding breath for 20 seconds so far....

Are you turning blue yet?

[Katman]

Perhaps because "falling over" tends to leave bleeding injured or dead bikers?

Or , to turn your question on its head, if you had an absolute guarantee that there would be no ACC rises no matter how many bikers were killed or injured , would you then stop bothering to try to persuade people to ride safely?

No, nor would I .

Bikers not being killed or injured is something to strive for in its own right. No just because the crashes cost money.

See, I always knew we were on the same wavelength Les.

It's almost like we're.........http://i.allstarpics.net/images/orig/6/o/6osi63y058160y8i.jpg

:eek:

[Bass]

It's almost like we're.........http://i.allstarpics.net/images/orig/6/o/6osi63y058160y8i.jpg

:eek:

Well bugger me! (with a great big long buggering stick)

I can see the resemblance!

[snuffles]

See, I always knew we were on the same wavelength Les.

It's almost like we're.........http://i.allstarpics.net/images/orig/6/o/6osi63y058160y8i.jpg

:eek:

See there is some hope for humanity, not all people who ride bikes are complete dickheads, and some of us do have a brain in our body.....and hope to keep it on the inside of skulls, not the inside of our helmets:Punk:

[Katman]

I can see the resemblance!

I'm the taller one though.

[Bass]

I'm the taller one though.

Ah right...........
I stand corrected then.

[telliman]

without reading the hole thread, the point i want to make is that acc levys is based on the RISK of injury,you roadys seem to think that your the victim or something because of the fact/non fact statistics that the politicians are using for reasons, the fact is that you are at a far greater risk of injury or death than other road users and imo have got away with the apple pie long enough!being that i am a roofing contractor i pay a far higher acc rate than most others, and trust me acc is through the roof these days (excuse the pun) but its my chossen job so i get on with it, you should do the same!

being a dirt rider i look foward to your response!

[Katman]

without reading the hole thread, the point i want to make is that acc levys is based on the RISK of injury,you roadys seem to think that your the victim or something because of the fact/non fact statistics that the politicians are using for reasons, the fact is that you are at a far greater risk of injury or death than other road users and imo have got away with the apple pie long enough!being that i am a roofing contractor i pay a far higher acc rate than most others, and trust me acc is through the roof these days (excuse the pun) but its my chossen job so i get on with it, you should do the same!

being a dirt rider i look foward to your response!

My response?

All dirt bikes should be registered (like they are in Australia).

Then you guys could start paying your own way.

[caseye]

My response to Tillyboy.
When ACC first proposed these changes to ACC and the way levies were to be levelled at those groups who were higher risk.
It was NZ's motorcyclists who were targeted by ACC and Government.
With massive increases on their already significantly higher ACC levies.
The Motorcyclists got together and quickly got their messages into print and onto shirts.

motorcyclists realised very early on that this was the opening round.
The Govt with ACC's collusion were taking us on first, if they could crack the bikers/Motorcyclists, then the way would be clear to SHAFT the rest of the motoring public as well.Hence our Slogan.

"WHO'S NEXT???"

Now then Mr,tell me again who are we concerened about?????????????????.
First yes, Ourselves? of course, we've been made the scape goat for ACC's poor investment strategy and the total missmanagement of their own failing systems.
Secondly we saw what is coming and we didn't like it.
We;ve stood up and told the ACC, No way.
We've told the general motoring public at every protest ride and the Bikehoi that we know they're next, slowly but surely they are coming to realise this.
In their thousands they are now offering their support unconditionally.I have yet to speak to a car driver of any age who can't see whats happening NOW and who are grateful and respectful of how WE have handled this protest and ourselves so far.
ACC has and still continues to tell the general public , lies about how much it costs to rehabiliate us.

Fact,we cost less than cyclists, pedestrians, car drivers, or truckies.
Certainly less than mountain bikers, skiers or off road bike users.ACC's own figures prove this catagorically.
You get to be subsidised by us, bet you didnt know that but our good mate Nicks Myth told us that himself Last Monday night.You pay no ACC levy as a majorly high risk recrational user of ACC's services, but we do and your injuries and compensation most often comes out of our (the supposed on road motorcyclists) account.
So I ask you as a rider, did you go to Wellington to make your protest about your motorcycle levies going up?
Did you or have you attended any actual protests in your local area to do the same.
If not why not?
if you did , I thank you for taking the time.
Thats my response to your post, my very slowly typed and frequently edited response that is.

[MSTRS]

My response?

All dirt bikes should be registered (like they are in Australia).

Then you guys could start paying your own way.

Abso-bloody-lutely. Smug bastards on their dirtbikes. Well...this one, anyway.

[Katman]

Fact,we cost less than cyclists, pedestrians, car drivers, or truckies.


Per claim.

Trouble is, we're making far too many claims.

Total number of car drivers claims - 11984
Total number of motorcyclist claims - 4509

Yet we make up only 2% of the road using public.

As I said at the start of the thread.........

.......we had better start cleaning up our own back yard.

[bogan]

My response?

All dirt bikes should be registered (like they are in Australia).

Then you guys could start paying your own way.

a breif look into the aussie situation suggests bugger all dirt bikes are registered, they dont have to be registered for use on private property, which is all I (and many others) ride.
When you start saying others should pay there own way, It sounds like you accept that ACC is done for, no body should have to pay thier own way, its (well it was sposed to be) no fault, thats the point!

[bogan]

Per claim.

Trouble is, we're making far too many claims.

Total number of car drivers claims - 11984
Total number of motorcyclist claims - 4509

Yet we make up only 2% of the road using public.

As I said at the start of the thread.........

.......we had better start looking at cleaning up our own back yard.

wheres the 4509 from, Ive got 3173 on the wiki?

[MSTRS]

wheres the 4509 from, Ive got 3173 on the wiki?

And Nick the Prick has 5044.
My head is reeling...

[Katman]

wheres the 4509 from, Ive got 3173 on the wiki?

From here......http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129461785&postcount=18

But at the end of the day, regardless of the actual number that we agree on, we are still way over represented in the accident statistics.

[Ixion]

5044 is the total number of claims LODGED in 2008. Many of these are opened and almost immediately closed . Go to doctor , get sticking plaster, end of story. Only 1336 became entitlement claims , where there is more than that initial doctor (or ambo) visit

3173 is the number of ACTIVE ENTITLEMENT claims in 2008 . The claims that are more than a single see the doctor, for ALL years. So some of those , the crash actually happened in previous years.

The 4509 is obtained by adding together the 3173 and the 1336 . i don't think that's right, I think the 3173 includes the 1336.