Funny how S1s usually beat S2s

[Brainfade]

I freakin LOVE The FreeCaster SuerMoto coverage, its great!

One thing I find strange is the way the S1s, which are 450s, Usually seem to beat the S2s which are Over 500cc, eg the Husaberg is a 570, the Husqvarna that won the S2 World Championship this year is a 530,

Basically, its weird how the smaller engined bikes win, any ideas why?

You'd think the extra grunt of the S2 would make it faster than the S1 but the opposite is true

Check out the results below of the S1 vs S2, the S1 is like a over a second a lap faster!

Also, theres a new Hypermoto Champioship starting up, check it HERE (http://londonbikers.com/news/10739/hypermoto-class-links-supermoto-to-growing-big-bore-market)

I wonder how they will go compared to S1 & S2, although the Hypermotos wont have a dirt section so, it doesnt really compare I guess

Anyway, any ideas why 450s are faster than the S2 570s, 550s etc?

Im guessing its the weight difference?, dunno!

I got the timing chart from the CATALUNYA below from HERE (http://www.supermotos1.com/reslists.aspx?ct=4&c=10)
S1 - Grand Prix Race 2
Classification
Pos Nr Rider Nat. Fed. Bike Time laps Diff. First Diff. Prev. Bestlaptime in lap Speed
1 4 Chareyre, Thomas FRA FFM Husqvarna 19:21.782 17 0:00.000 0:00.000 1:07.632 12 60.681
2 30 Lazzarini, Ivan ITA FMI Honda 19:22.520 17 0:00.738 0:00.738 1:07.544 11 60.76
3 100 Seel, Eddy BEL FMB Suzuki 19:52.650 17 0:30.868 0:30.130 1:09.150 6 59.349
4 139 Verderosa, Massimo ITA FMI Honda 19:54.848 17 0:33.066 0:02.198 1:09.227 10 59.283
5 101 van den Bosch, Thierry FRA FFM TM 19:55.799 17 0:34.017 0:00.951 1:09.361 16 59.169
6 14 Bolsec, Viktor CRO HMS Honda 19:56.833 17 0:35.051 0:01.034 1:09.261 17 59.254
7 131 Hermunen, Mauno FIN SML Husqvarna 20:02.522 17 0:40.740 0:05.689 1:08.780 15 59.669
8 28 Cucharrera, Francesc ESP RFME KTM 20:15.881 17 0:54.099 0:13.359 1:09.472 16 59.074
9 200 Bussei, Giovanni ITA FMI Honda 20:20.057 17 0:58.275 0:04.176 1:09.741 16 58.846
10 5 Winstanley, Matthew GBR ACU Husqvarna 20:33.486 17 1:11.704 0:13.429 1:09.987 5 58.639

S2 - Grand Prix Race 2
Classification
Pos Nr Rider Nat. Fed. Bike Time laps Diff. First Diff. Prev. Bestlaptime in lap Speed
1 3 Delepine, Gérald BEL FMB Husqvarna 19:45.071 17 0:00.000 0:00.000 1:08.873 6 59.588
2 1 Chareyre, Adrien FRA FFM Husqvarna 19:45.999 17 0:00.928 0:00.928 1:08.806 11 59.646
3 46 Burkhart, Mark USA AMA KTM 19:47.466 17 0:02.395 0:01.467 1:08.825 12 59.629
4 78 Bartolini, Fabrizio ITA FMI Husqvarna 19:52.696 17 0:07.625 0:05.230 1:08.812 9 59.641
5 51 Occhini, Andrea ITA FMI TM 19:56.499 17 0:11.428 0:03.803 1:09.069 14 59.419
6 8 Gaspardone, Paolo ITA FMI Honda 20:06.401 17 0:21.330 0:09.902 1:09.352 17 59.176
7 20 Borella, Edgardo ITA FMI KTM 20:15.951 17 0:30.880 0:09.550 1:09.199 5 59.307
8 15 Deridder, Lionel BEL FMB KTM 20:25.364 17 0:40.293 0:09.413 1:10.147 5 58.506
9 48 Carassai, Giordano ITA FMI Aprilia 19:48.892 16 1 lap 1 lap 1:10.588 11 58.14
10 54 Blakeman, Richard GBR ACU KTM 20:04.886 16 1 lap 0:15.994 1:12.846 7 56.338
11 69 Gozzini, Davide ITA FMI TM 19:43.058 14 3 laps 2 laps 1:08.695 6 59.742

[NordieBoy]

I liked it better in the bad old days when the top class was unlimited and Boris and co were running some seriously big bikes.

[FlangMasterJ]

Has the S1 class always been the smaller displacement?

A little bit confusing.


Maybe the 450's have the upperhand in the dirt and cornering.

[george formby]

Yup, weight. less = better braking, more agility, higher average speed me thinks. That hypermoto format could be spectacular!

[NordieBoy]

S1 used to be unlimited and S2 were the little 450's.

[Mikkel]

When looking for power, single-cylinder engines become less and less effective with increasing displacements. Longer stroke mean that you are limited to, comparatively, slow engine speeds due to material constraints. Also, single-cylinder engines are, naturally, less balanced than other configurations - which necessitates considerable counterbalance shafts in order to keep vibrations at a tolerable level. Compare the displacement per piston between a diffent bikes: 450 ccm motard = 450 ccm per piston, 650 ccm pro-twin = 375 ccm per piston, 1000 ccm superbike = 250 ccm per piston, 600 ccm supersports = 150 ccm per piston. Now correlate these figures with the specific power output (i.e. hps/ccm) of these bikes - data I haven't got at hand right now - and I think you'll see an obvious trend: larger piston == less specific power. And yes, you can vary the stoke-to-bore ratio and play with this - however, the sensible range of variation is somewhat limited if you want a well functioning engine.

As a result, increasing the engine displacement by 50% going from 450 ccm to 675 ccm is not going to give you 50% increase in power, staying with the same engine configuration.

Also, the lower capacity engine has two benefits: a) it's lighter - especially the dynamic mass - and as a result will be more lively and b) it will, generally speaking, be more smooth and will have a wider dynamic range - i.e. redline is higher.

At least that's my take on it.

[GaZBur]

S1 used to be unlimited and S2 were the little 450's.
Well that seems to be true in NZ. Open Super Motard = Over 450 = S1 in Nz but S2 overseas. Under 450 = Supermotard = S2 in NZ but S1 overseas? The under 450's were meant to be the premier class so I am guessing someone in NZ stuffed it up and it's stayed that way. Anybody else go ideas why we are different?

PS my Open Supermotard is for sale on trademe.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Dual-purpose/auction-255389937.htm

[NordieBoy]

Well that seems to be true in NZ. Open Super Motard = Over 450 = S1 in Nz but S2 overseas. Under 450 = Supermotard = S2 in NZ but S1 overseas? The under 450's were meant to be the premier class so I am guessing someone in NZ stuffed it up and it's stayed that way. Anybody else go ideas why we are different?

Overseas they changed the premier class to be 450's and the premier riders changed as well.

In NZ we still think big bikes are best :2thumbsup

[skypig]

I don’t think it’s a weight thing. A KTM 450 wouldn’t be a whole kilo lighter than a KTM 525/530/540 would it? I thought they were identical except for bore (and in some cases, stroke).

I think the smaller “revier” motors might be better suited to SM. Also if the 450 class is the premier class (whatever it’s called) it would attract the faster riders. This is certainly the case in World Championship MX. The big bore MX series, MX3 seems a side show compared to MX1, 450s and MX2, 250s.:devil2:

[NordieBoy]

Just like in MX/Dakar those in charge are dropping the capacity of the top tier to make things more exciting for the viewer.
They were running 700cc bigbore KTM's in S1 in the "good old days".

Whatever class you call the "premiere" the top riders will race it making it the "fastest" class.

[FlangMasterJ]

Just like in MX/Dakar those in charge are dropping the capacity of the top tier to make things more exciting for the viewer.
They were running 700cc bigbore KTM's in S1 in the "good old days".

Whatever class you call the "premiere" the top riders will race it making it the "fastest" class.

Speaking of big bore KTM's. This guy is running a 450SMR bored out to a 630 (or close to) and is cleaning up at Daytona.

http://www.bikemovies.com/movie/010709/