Bikers blocking shopping centre.

[Elysium]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10610482


Motorcycle protesters are threatening to block shopping mall car parks unless the Government abandons proposed accident compensation levy rises.

They revealed yesterday a plan to "shut down" one of the Westfield retail group's nine Auckland malls on Saturday next week by filling its parking spaces with "a conglomerate of bikers, taxis, couriers and truckies".

Unlike protests planned for this weekend, including a rally on Sunday morning in Mission Bay, the shopping mall action is not sanctioned by the Bikers Rights Organisation of New Zealand (Bronz), which organised this week's "bikoi" to Parliament.

But an email sent to the Herald by veteran motorcyclist and former businessman David Peppiatt said shopping malls would be targeted until the Government backed down on the compensation levies.

"We intend to perpetuate such disturbances until ACC agrees to levy the man, not what the man is doing," the email said.



He denied the action could be termed civil disobedience, saying participants would be legally entitled to shop at the mall and park vehicles for up to two hours.

"Civil disobedience will be when we get to the stage of shutting down motorways," said Mr Peppiatt, who was among 5000 motorcyclists in Tuesday's protest at Parliament.

He said taxis and other vehicles were being included to highlight a view that all licensed road-users were being unfairly levied for accident compensation.

Waitemata road policing manager Superintendent John Kelly said people were entitled to protest within the bounds of the law, but the police would deal with any illegal action "as seems appropriate at the time".

Westfield spokeswoman Linda Trainer said the company had not been notified of any protests but its malls were private property and "we ask at all times for shoppers or visitors to our centres to respect the 'quiet enjoyment' of fellow shoppers and retailers."

Les Mason, Auckland president of Bronz and organiser of the "bikoi", said he had not heard of the proposed mall protest, but his group was unlikely to support it.

"That's something we wouldn't condone, because we would see it as being done specifically with the intention of causing public inconvenience," he said.

His group's committee had decided that any protests it organised would "in all cases be legal and avoid unnecessary disruption to the public".

Mr Mason said it was also prepared to sanction other protests within that definition, including the Mission Bay rally, at which motorcyclists will be urged to fill as many car parks as possible - one machine to each space.

He understood the Mission Bay protest was designed to draw attention to the prospect of extra congestion if accident compensation levy rises forced bikers into cars.

But he acknowledged more extreme protests were possible the longer Accident Compensation Minister Nick Smith delayed rejecting annual levy rises of up to $493 for large motorcycles.
By Mathew Dearnaley | Email Mathew

So I wonder if a lot of people here are planning to do this. Doesn't this risk turning public opinion against us?

[scissorhands]

The retailers association will pressure the nats to make us go away

[Conquiztador]

Now we are talking!!!!

[FastBikeGear]

The retailers association will pressure the nats to make us go away

They might also point out that we are anti social and ask them to kick our buts.

[mashman]

They might also point out that we are anti social and ask them to kick our buts.

Or arrest us and fine us thus adding to the governments already over swollen coffers! It's what i'd do to get rid of you, a win win for me!

[FastBikeGear]

Or arrest us and fine us thus adding to the governments already over swollen coffers! It's what i'd do to get rid of you, a win win for me!

I don't think they would have grounds for arrest but the public arn't going to back us when the Governement announces that they have reconsidered and decided to obnly increase our levies by 200% across the board for all motorcycles regardless of engine size.

[Ixion]

They can't arrest you. (Unless there is more than "peaceful" protest).
What they can do is give you a trespass order requiring you to leave.

I imagine they'll have them ready.

That's OK though, point's made, and every biker has to be individually trespassed.

Mind you, I imagine the mall has coffee shops and such? Bit tricky trespassing a person who can legitimately say they just came for a coffee.

[Tank]

Its a no win now that its been in the papers.

Unless you block out the whole thing (and you need A LOT to fill a Westfield carpark) its going to look 1/2 assed and a failed demo.

If they block entry points / exits etc - they they are going to look like anti social dipshits and turn away support.

I dont know who sent it to the papers - but I do think that a more 'professional' approach (like MOM's Mission Bay meeting) would have been a better idea before going to the media.

FFS - I cant even find a thread saying what westfield - if people dont have the info - how many will be there - 3 ? It will be a laughing stock.

[GOONR]

They can't arrest you. (Unless there is more than "peaceful" protest).
What they can do is give you a trespass order requiring you to leave.

I imagine they'll have them ready.

That's OK though, point's made, and every biker has to be individually trespassed.

Mind you, I imagine the mall has coffee shops and such? Bit tricky trespassing a person who can legitimately say they just came for a coffee.

Just keep the receipt!

[george formby]

Made my toe's curl reading that today. If it is televised or printed in the media that shoppers have been inconvenienced, a very possible publicity angle, then that would be one helluva own goal. Dodgy. Dodgy. Dodgy.
An argument between a mum with kids & a biker, smugly presented on the six o'clock news would go along way to re-inforcing biker stereotypes for middle NZ & lose us a lot of public sympathy. Very thin ice IMO & easily manipulated by the press.

[Dodgyiti]

Not going to support that action, it's private property, it's a shopping mall:sick: and the Sunday Mission Bay protest is a lot nicer place to hang out than a mall carpark.
How does one person get a voice in Nanny Herald without any formalised organisation behind them any way??

[Ixion]

Its a no win now that its been in the papers.

Unless you block out the whole thing (and you need A LOT to fill a Westfield carpark) its going to look 1/2 assed and a failed demo.

If they block entry points / exits etc - they they are going to look like anti social dipshits and turn away support.

I dont know who sent it to the papers - but I do think that a more 'professional' approach (like MOM's Mission Bay meeting) would have been a better idea before going to the media.

FFS - I cant even find a thread saying what westfield - if people dont have the info - how many will be there - 3 ? It will be a laughing stock.

In which case we win. Public attention drawn, people reminded of what we COULD do, but the responsible and public spirited bikers prevent disruption.

[Tank]

people reminded of what we COULD do.

Fair point - that will hold a lot more weight assuming that the Mission Bay one is sucessfull.

They did it once - they can do it again.

[Mom]

Not going to support that action, it's private property, it's a shopping mall:sick: and the Sunday Mission Bay protest is a lot nicer place to hang out than a mall carpark.
How does one person get a voice in Nanny Herald without any formalised organisation behind them any way??

They ring you :sunny:

[Dodgyiti]

They ring you :sunny:

:laugh: I hung up on them, thought it was another bloody survey.

It made news because it sounds like more drama blocking New Zealanders from what has overtaken Rugby/Cricket/Netball as our new most popular national recreational activity.
Bless their consumeristic bloated arses

[Ozzie]

I fail to see the difference between a bunch of motorcycles legitimately and legally taking up a full carpark at mission bay going for brunch, and taking up a full carpark when taking a stroll through the mall.

I wouldn't support an actual protest, but would support mass use of motorcycles in westfield for a day. If everyone who owned a bike, used it to get to the mall to go browse for Christmas presents, on one particular day, and parked like cars do (sort of), 1 vehicle per park, what's wrong with that?

It would demonstrate precisely the same thing as the mission bay thing, mass absence of parks if we were all driving cars.

:done:

[Skyryder]

This is a mistake guys.

1. It's on private property and if any mall wants to get shitty they simply stop bikes from useing their car park. You could be asked to leave at a moments notice and what will you have achieved. Nothing and pissed off the public to boot.
(car spacing on the public road is another issue. In fact I have suggested that myself and it's lawfull too providing you feed the metre)

2. At present we have the general public on our side. Any kind of inconveniance to them could be counter productive.

3 It's far too early for alternitive protest action. It's coming on Xmas time when many people will be out and about. They will have other concerns other than ours. In the new year when Parliment comes out of recess would be a better time but keep off private property. You enter on the owners good will...............respect that.

All I can add is to the organisers of this just think this thru.


Skyryder

[kwaka_crasher]

Blockading private property? The most retarded fucking idea ever.

[wingrider]

We know there have been persons reading the threads and passing on comments to the media blowing things out of proportion.

I believe this is just another one of the attempts to try and attack us and make us look like a bunch of unsociable, unlawful, leather clad idiots that dont give a shit about Joe Public.

Might it be that someones getting so worried and is NOW taking underhanded measures to try and win back the public support we gained from the Bikoi?

Perhaps Ixion or someone already known to the public face needs to make contact with the powers of Westfield and denounce this sort of behaviour and have Westfield ask for the paper to either publish a retraction or expose the informant. Not bloody likely I know but at least we can get the message across that we are not wanting to cause public disruption and give us a platform to further expose the real intent of ACC and National to shaft everyone.

[Ixion]

See Les Mason on Page 1 of today's Harold.

[Reckless]

This is a mistake guys.

1. It's on private property and if any mall wants to get shitty they simply stop bikes from useing their car park. You could be asked to leave at a moments notice and what will you have achieved. Nothing and pissed off the public to boot.
(car spacing on the public road is another issue. In fact I have suggested that myself and it's lawfull too providing you feed the metre)

2. At present we have the general public on our side. Any kind of inconveniance to them could be counter productive.

3 It's far too early for alternitive protest action. It's coming on Xmas time when many people will be out and about. They will have other concerns other than ours. In the new year when Parliment comes out of recess would be a better time but keep off private property. You enter on the owners good will...............respect that.

All I can add is to the organisers of this just think this thru.


Skyryder

+1 very Skyrider well put!!

Splitting up the protest actions will divide us as well. Better to have many in one place once per weekend! Plenty of time yet to get more aggressive!

Better to come to Mission Bay Sunday and Possibly Dicko Smiths meeting (Monday 30 November: Public meeting with Hon Nick Smith, Minister for the Environment, Climate Change Issues and ACC, National MP for Nelson, 7.30pm at Royal Akarana Yacht Club, Okahu Bay. Auckland) if it gets properly organized.

Thats enough for one Month IMHO.

[Kiwi Graham]

See Les Mason on Page 1 of today's Harold.

Who is this messiah of whome you speak and what has Harold got to do with him :laugh:

[Ixion]

Just some cynical old cunt with a giraffe fixation

[wingrider]

Perhaps Ixion or someone already known to the public face needs to make contact with the powers of Westfield and denounce this sort of behaviour and have Westfield ask for the paper to either publish a retraction or expose the informant. Not bloody likely I know but at least we can get the message across that we are not wanting to cause public disruption and give us a platform to further expose the real intent of ACC and National to shaft everyone.

Sorry Les.
I see you already on to it as usual.

[Headbanger]

One man protest action.

Went into town today, Backed the old girl into a car park.

Amusing to watch a constant stream of wagons try and dive into the park only to see my bike and change strategy.



Having said that, I've always parked in car parks.......:laugh:

[mashman]

Splitting up the protest actions will divide us as well. Better to have many in one place once per weekend! Plenty of time yet to get more aggressive!


how do you beat your arch rival, even if you're outnumbered 100 - 1... Divide and Conquer! United we stand, divided we fall etc...

[kwaka_crasher]

...make us look like a bunch of unsociable, unlawful, leather clad idiots that dont give a shit about Joe Public.

Oh. Well, that's ok then. I thought they were trying to misrepresent us.

[Tank]

See Les Mason on Page 1 of today's Harold.


Who is this messiah of whome you speak? :laugh:

Typed in my very best Jeremy Clarkson voice:

Some say he breaths pure avg gas and pisses dollar coins.

All we know is that we call him ....

[steve_t]

Having said that, I've always parked in car parks.......:laugh:

But motorbike parks are free. I'm too tight to pay for parking if I can get it for free :banana:

[Ozzie]

It's coming on Xmas time when many people will be out and about. They will have other concerns other than ours. In the new year when Parliment comes out of recess would be a better time

Good point about timing, but I don't know about the private property thing.

We would be legitimate customers, using the parks as intended, on mass.

Perhaps a slight change, take up one full isle, not block the whole place? Make the point of congestion without alienating everyone.

But, fully agree with the timing, and re-itterate, not a flag waving, chanting protest, just going about reasonable business, shopping, having a feed, a browse, just using your bike to get there.

[Headbanger]

But motorbike parks are free. I'm too tight to pay for parking if I can get it for free :banana:

Are they?

I suppose that's true, I never pay for parking out of....um, I want to say principle but really its just not giving a damn.

Can I pass off not giving a damn/pure arrogance as a principle?

[Tank]

Perhaps a slight change, take up one full isle, not block the whole place? Make the point of congestion without alienating everyone.

But, fully agree with the timing, and re-itterate, not a flag waving, chanting protest, just going about reasonable business, shopping, having a feed, a browse, just using your bike to get there.

Too late me thinks - with the press this has received - anyone seen on a bike at a westfield mall will be eye'ed with suspicion. Its already been pointed out that its a protest not a shopping, having a feed or browse.

I wont be surprised if legitimate people actually going to westfields on bikes start getting turned away.

[Ozzie]

Well, that being the case, I'm absolutely dead against it.

Westfield, or any private enterprise, is no place for any vocal protest against the government or a government department, not at this point anyway.

People will just get seriously fucked off, and rightly so IMHO.

You want to protest and piss people off, take over every ACC carpark in the country from 6am to 9:30am on a designated date.

Pref a Tuesday or Wednesday, so I can come and play.

[GOONR]

Too late me thinks - with the press this has received - anyone seen on a bike at a westfield mall will be eye'ed with suspicion. Its already been pointed out that its a protest not a shopping, having a feed or browse.

I wont be surprised if legitimate people actually going to westfields on bikes start getting turned away.


I wondered about that. There is a Westfield close to me and I will need some stuff from a few of the shops in the mall by next weekend anyway. I'll turn up early next weekend and see what happens.

[davereid]

Well, that being the case, I'm absolutely dead against it. Westfield, or any private enterprise, is no place for any vocal protest against the government or a government department, not at this point anyway. People will just get seriously fucked off, and rightly so IMHO.

You want to protest and piss people off, take over every ACC carpark in the country from 6am to 9:30am on a designated date.

Pref a Tuesday or Wednesday, so I can come and play.

Well said Ozzie.

The only corporation I'm really pissed off with is A.C.C. and a bit with the A.A.

All you will get blockading a private shopping center is a permanent ban on motorcycles at the mall, as well as bad publicity.

You would be better asking if you could run a BBQ at the warehouse, $1 a sausage, money goes to rescue chopper, and everyone walks away with a fact sheet on A.C.C to read while they try and get the sauce off their shirts.


Don't forget the usual stuff.

Ring your National M.P. Arrange a meeting. Give him a fact sheet.

Remind him, that for a tiny amount of money, bikers being less than 0.3% of ACCs revenue, that he has picked a political fight that will stay in the news papers all the way to the next election.

[doc]

I think we need the public to support us not against us cos we have inconvienced them. Faaark you seen what Women do when you get in their way when they are shoppin.

Better off displaying our talent on poker/coro loop type rides. That also wins us supporters. Gotta agree with Katman bout this :love:

[jafar]

Ok so who is this "veteran motorcyclist and former businessman David Peppiatt "?? What is his name on here ??

Why has he decided to announce to the world that he is a 'footsoldier' & that he is associated with Kiwibiker ??

Where is the thread in here that has been started to organize this protest ??

Or is this the Harold just making shit up to ultimately make us look bad ?

[george formby]

After a perusal of the thread, I think it would be a good idea to get our message across at all the shopping malls, well, more than one. A dozen or so bikers chatting to the public & handing out fact sheets in the run up to christmas could do a lot to raise public awareness of how these proposals could effect them. Letting the kiddies have a wee seat on a bike & a photo taken would be fun too. Just a thought & a bit more positive....

[davereid]

After a perusal of the thread, I think it would be a good idea to get our message across at all the shopping malls, well, more than one. A dozen or so bikers chatting to the public & handing out fact sheets in the run up to christmas could do a lot to raise public awareness of how these proposals could effect them. Letting the kiddies have a wee seat on a bike & a photo taken would be fun too. Just a thought & a bit more positive....


Thats my kinda protest

[Reckless]

how do you beat your arch rival, even if you're outnumbered 100 - 1... Divide and Conquer! United we stand, divided we fall etc...

I've re read my post and thats what I was saying. Better for all of us to be united in one spot than divided all over the city, or where you agreeing, not sure???

BTW: If I don't have to drive all the way to Wgtn to see my sick uncle I'll be at mission Bay!!

Edit: just got your bling Sorry for the confusion DUH moment by me!! bling returned!

[mashman]

I think we need the public to support us not against us cos we have inconvienced them.

I'm starting to wonder why we're calling "them" the public... why are "they" not considered brethren... after all we are all in this together and i believe that's the message we need to be getting across... we're campaigning for the benefit of the country, not just because we're bikers, they just picked on the wrong group to marginalise!

[mashman]

I've re read my post and thats what I was saying. Better for all of us to be united in one spot than divided all over the city, or where you agreeing, not sure???

BTW: If I don't have to drive all the way to Wgtn to see my sick uncle I'll be at mission Bay!!

Oh i was agreeing alright!!! hence the bling!

[dpex]

Ok so who is this "veteran motorcyclist and former businessman David Peppiatt "?? What is his name on here ??

Why has he decided to announce to the world that he is a 'footsoldier' & that he is associated with Kiwibiker ??

Where is the thread in here that has been started to organize this protest ??

Or is this the Harold just making shit up to ultimately make us look bad ?


I can answer that. He is me. Although I can't say I like the 'veteran' tag. Makes me feel like an 'old' bastard, as opposed to an old 'bastard'.

The paper got the foot-soldier bit correct. I'm not the organiser. Sorry, at this moment I can't reveal that identity.

Also, for the record, see if you can all come to grips with the facts.

1. Any biker, and in any number, is/are perfectly entitled to inhabit a carpark in any mall, for no more than the allotted 2 hours.

2. The concept is to have several hundred bikers inhabit a carpark then slope off to have a coffee and/or a Big Mac in the mall.

3. It will be the visual impact of what appears to be a largely empty parking area with one bike in each parking space.

No doubt the organiser will reveal the time, date and place in due course.

It just occurred to me. Where does one get balloons printed? And how much?

Wouldn't it be good to hand out balloons to the kids, printed with the ACC T-shirt logo, maybe print them with, "All Road User ACC Is An Unfair Tax"

Maybe a divide-and-rule logo would be better. For example, "Why do drivers pay extra ACC yet Rugby Players Don't?"

[doc]

I'm starting to wonder why we're calling "them" the public... why are "they" not considered brethren... after all we are all in this together and i believe that's the message we need to be getting across... we're campaigning for the benefit of the country, not just because we're bikers, they just picked on the wrong group to marginalise!

This is KB last week they (them) were the enemy... as in cagers, sort of like BOI racers trying to do a make over. :girlfight:

[dpex]

I'm starting to wonder why we're calling "them" the public... why are "they" not considered brethren... after all we are all in this together and i believe that's the message we need to be getting across... we're campaigning for the benefit of the country, not just because we're bikers, they just picked on the wrong group to marginalise!

YES!!!!! At long last, someone has caught up with the reality of it all. Well done you! Mashman!

[Gubb]

You're doing more harm than good dpex. You certainly don't represent me, and I resent the implication that you do.

I'd still put my money on Katman.

[davereid]

1. Any biker, and in any number, is/are perfectly entitled to inhabit a carpark in any mall, for no more than the allotted 2 hours.


Its private property, you dont have any right to be there, and the manager can change the rules at smoko time if he wishes.

If it were my Mall, I'd just make a small motorcycle park to cover "real" customers, and instant tow away for bikes in car parks.

Target the enemy, not joe public, trying to spend a few bob at his favorite shop.

[george formby]

I'm starting to wonder why we're calling "them" the public... why are "they" not considered brethren... after all we are all in this together and i believe that's the message we need to be getting across... we're campaigning for the benefit of the country, not just because we're bikers, they just picked on the wrong group to marginalise!

Bingo! We are the public & should avoid marginalising ourselves by being disruptive & emphasise that we are the thin end of the wedge when it comes to future ACC changes. The whole nation is on the point of paying more for less service from ACC & the health care system. People first not $$$$$$$$$. Ggrrrr.
I like the mall idea but on an involving rather than challenging level to get this message across.
If their is a leaflet / handout under consideration which demonstrates this, I would be happy to print my own copies & get them out & about up here.

[jafar]

It would have been a smarter idea to do the deed & let the media in on it rather than have it on the front page of the harold...... now every fucking Westfield will have their security on full alert & be waiting for us to show.
Riders may well feel the hairy hand of the Westfailed security staff on them & be told it is a biker free day & to piss off...... If your going into a fight it is best not to telegraph you punch
:mad:

[Ixion]

It would have been a smarter idea to do the deed & let the media in on it rather than have it on the front page of the harold...... now every fucking Westfield will have their security on full alert & be waiting for us to show.
Riders may well feel the hairy hand of the Westfailed security staff on them & be told it is a biker free day & to piss off...... If your going into a fight it is best not to telegraph you punch
:mad:

I disagree. An excellent result I'd have thought.

We got front page publicity in the Harold and on radio. Lots of thems will be thinking "shit these guys are really pissed off". Which is good.

And if they roll up to do their shopping and it's all serene, they'll be happy

We've pushed our message , made people think, and inconvenienced noone . Win win win

You don't always have to actually HOLD the protest for it to be successful.

[jafar]

I disagree. An excellent result I'd have thought.

We got front page publicity in the Harold and on radio. Lots of thems will be thinking "shit these guys are really pissed off". Which is good.

And if they roll up to do their shopping and it's all serene, they'll be happy

We've pushed our message , made people think, and inconvenienced noone . Win win win

You don't always have to actually HOLD the protest for it to be successful.

We will have to agree to disagree on that.

[Ixion]

Meanwhile, over at (non Westfield) Sylvia Park -------

[dpex]

You're doing more harm than good dpex. You certainly don't represent me, and I resent the implication that you do.

I'd still put my money on Katman.

I'm not representing anyone. Gubb. They phoned. They asked. I replied with what little I have been allowed to know.

But what are you doing, as regards fighting this iniquitous tax, personally, Gubb?

For the record, I'm out there joining every protest ride. I spend my own money planting info fliers on parked cars. I have written well over 20 submissions to a collective of the Gov and ACC.

I'm prepared to spend my own money to fund a 'Balloon With A Message" campaign, to be handed out to all and sundry at Malls and anywhere else a protest arises.

So what are you doing? I hope it is a lot. I fear it is little.

[jafar]

Meanwhile, over at (non Westfield) Sylvia Park -------

Hopefully someone is handing out fliers to the great unwashed & involving them in discussion about the ACC levies & how we are the thin end of the wedge !!
& that next year it may well be there child that can't play rugby because they can't afford to pay the yearly subs & the ACC contribution that Nicks minions have put in place.:girlfight:

[PhantasmNZ]

So what are you doing? I hope it is a lot. I fear it is little.

In his defence here -he was one of the relatively unseen few who freely gave up his time actually participating in making the Wellington Bikeoi the success it was be coordinating the masses to be in the right place at the right time, and discouraging those who might have caused issues (by parking illegally etc) away. So yes, actually Gubb is doing a lot.

As for the mall protest - I think - as Ixion said - the publicity - without the action - has actually had some effect. I think mass disruption is not without merit - but a little premature.

So far we have public support, and it's needed. As far as Joe Public is concerned - we actually had a WIN on Tuesday. Our job is to keep this in the public eye and milk the support we had down in Wellington. I don't think silent protests will win the day - but I'm not sure occupying a private car park will help either. I personally know the manager of a Wesfield (no I won't tell which one) - and it's a ****real**** easy decision to get people trespassed from the mall. I doubt it would happen to everyone there - but imagine the negative publicity when the fabled organiser (and the odd footsoldier) got escorted from the mall with a trespass notice.

Your assertions about anybody can park there for two hours may be largely right - but the truth is it's private property, and the representatives of the property owners can also trespass anybody they feel - and an intention to cause public disprution is a great way to do it.

in many ways the Mission Bay protest is similar - however - this is on public (ie council or public roads) property - and I am personally strongly suggesting keeping areas deliberately open for cars... the biggest difference is that parking in mission bay is likely to be for non-essential reasons only. If I was prevented from parking at the shops where I was on my way to buy medicine from the pharmacy, or baby food from the supermarket - then stopping me parking is simply dead wrong.

I understand your opinions, and I think there is deifinitely a place for this kind of action - but at the minute no decisions have been made and (my opinion only) you risk undoing much of the good that was the Bikeoi.

Let's keep it to public areas -we can make just as big a show there. In the end these protests ARE NOT about who we affect in the immediate area - who gives a toss about who physically sees us. this is a MEDIA battle - and is about raising profile to the MASSES. As I see it good press and LOTS OF IT (ie continued action) is the only real way to go.

...end of the day - my opinion only ... everyone here is entitled to think, feel, say and act as they think is appropriate....

[mashman]

I've re read my post and thats what I was saying. Better for all of us to be united in one spot than divided all over the city, or where you agreeing, not sure???

BTW: If I don't have to drive all the way to Wgtn to see my sick uncle I'll be at mission Bay!!

Edit: just got your bling Sorry for the confusion DUH moment by me!! bling returned!

You have absolutely nothing to apologise for mate, the internerd can twist things in all sorts of directions, we meant the same thing, coulda been me reading it incorrectly!

Oh BTW, go see your Uncle man (unless of course you really really don't wanna :wacko:)

[Rudra]

I disagree. An excellent result I'd have thought.

We got front page publicity in the Harold and on radio. Lots of thems will be thinking "shit these guys are really pissed off". Which is good.

And if they roll up to do their shopping and it's all serene, they'll be happy

We've pushed our message , made people think, and inconvenienced noone . Win win win

You don't always have to actually HOLD the protest for it to be successful.

A bomb threat can work as well as a bomb, for publicity purposes.

[Mr Merde]

From " THE ART OF WAR"

By Sun Tzu

"The formation and procedure used by the military should noit be divulged beforehand"

"Make your move when they are unprepared, make your move when they do not expect it"

2000 year old advice.

So apt to the struggle we find ourselves in today.

[Ixion]

If you cannot stop the enemy finding out your intentions, then give him lots of intentions to find out.

Master Ixion . No need for these young chinese punks.

[allycatz]

Interesting views on this on Trade Me message boards...http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=69841&#p1420753.....ps. the allycatz in the thread is NOT me lol!

[rok-the-boat]

If it is well publicized, shoppers will go elsewhere. There are loads of shops.

The govt doesn't listen to shoppers (us) - but it might listen to shopping mall owners.

[Mully]

After a perusal of the thread, I think it would be a good idea to get our message across at all the shopping malls, well, more than one. A dozen or so bikers chatting to the public & handing out fact sheets in the run up to christmas could do a lot to raise public awareness of how these proposals could effect them. Letting the kiddies have a wee seat on a bike & a photo taken would be fun too. Just a thought & a bit more positive....

Great idea, but totally impractical. Westfield would throw you out as quickly as you could get set up.

I worry about this idea. I think it could very quickly turn into a face-off with Plastic Badge security guards and bikers (tip: Don't call them "Officer Plastic Badge" to their faces, DAMHIK) - and bikers would be portrayed as the bad guys.

I think the Teddy Bear Run was a great idea. If we were looking at something like that again, I'd say maybe a canned food drive for the City Mission or some such.

[rok-the-boat]

Public support? Ha! They don't care about motorcyclists - they already dislike us. The only people who care about motorcyclists are motorcyclists. I'm not keen on making anyone have a bad day, but hey, look at all the publicity already :2thumbsup

[CookMySock]

What they can do is give you a trespass order requiring you to leave.I think they cannot enforce a trespass order associated with a public place.

Trespass orders are for private properly that is not open to the public, like your unfenced front lawn. If someone steps on this, you can write a trespass order on loo roll and hand it to him, and it's legal.

Other areas such as enclosed yards are covered by seperate legislation again - a person can be arrested for being inside an enclosed yard with no good reason, whether there is a trespass order against them or not.

It is the right of the public to conduct themselves legally in any public place. If the legal occupier of the property decides to close the area to the public and ask people to leave, that is his perogative. If he wants to ask a few selected individuals to stay, he may do that as well, but he cannot force individuals to leave any public place.

The main thing to remember, is to be squeaky clean, and don't let them rope you into a loud debate, or you will get processed for disorderly behaviour.

Steve

[allycatz]

I think they cannot enforce a trespass order associated with a public place.

Trespass orders are for private properly that is not open to the public, like your unfenced front lawn. If someone steps on this, you can write a trespass order on loo roll and hand it to him, and it's legal.

It is the right of the public to conduct themselves legally in any public place. If the legal occupier of the property decides to close the area to the public and ask people to leave, that is his perogative. If he wants to ask a few selected individuals to stay, he may do that as well, but he cannot force individuals to leave any public place.

The main thing to remember, is to be squeaky clean, and don't let them rope you into a loud debate, or you will get processed for disorderly behaviour.

Steve

I know down here in Kapiti, people can be trespassed and they do so regularly as the Mall and surrounding carparks are privately owned and not council owned. I guess the Mall has to decide where you are parked for a purpose or parked without the purpose of being a shopper/mall user. Personally, unless there are specific laws about no parking in cage parks, like Welly city central, then I cannoy see the difference between 100 cars parking or 100 bikes if they are all at the mall for the same purpose

[klingon]

They can definitely give you a tresspass order to get out of their carpark. It is private property. DAMHIK. :whistle:

[mashman]

Interesting views on this on Trade Me message boards...http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=69841&#p1420753.....ps. the allycatz in the thread is NOT me lol!

I want to throw

WHY SHOULD I BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU GETTING OUT OF YOUR BED EVERY MORNING. Come on, there's a much much bigger picture here and BIKERS are trying to figure out how to fight it. If you know better come and help us

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=108

on the board, but think it better that YOU decide wethere or not it goes up there!

[allycatz]

I want to throw

WHY SHOULD I BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU GETTING OUT OF YOUR BED EVERY MORNING. Come on, there's a much much bigger picture here and BIKERS are trying to figure out how to fight it. If you know better come and help us

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=108

on the board, but think it better that YOU decide wethere or not it goes up there!



Um.... why are you picking on me? I simply posted this link as a means to show some of what the public was saying.....where did I say I support the negative opinion in there?????

[PhantasmNZ]

They can definitely give you a tresspass order to get out of their carpark. It is private property. DAMHIK. :whistle:

+1 As I mentioned. I personally know a Westfield centre manager. This can and does happen. At Westfield malls. Regularly. End of story.

[klingon]

+1 As I mentioned. I personally know a Westfield centre manager. This can and does happen. At Westfield malls. Regularly. End of story.

I personally have been kicked out of more than one Westfield mall. This can and does happen. At Westfield malls. Regularly. :lol:

[mashman]

Um.... why are you picking on me? I simply posted this link as a means to show some of what the public was saying.....where did I say I support the negative opinion in there?????

oh shit no no no no and my apologies if it came out that way. Superb post, the message i typed was for the trademe board. I was just running it past the thread if it would be ok to post up there. Do we want "strictly car driving" NZ on a biker site?

[blossomsowner]

interesting thought occurs to me.

the festive season approaches with the corresponding mad rush, panic and craziness.

if it aids the cause to further the mayhem in some select places at select times it would be very easy to do.........

[davereid]

I think they cannot enforce a trespass order associated with a public place.

Trespass orders are for private properly that is not open to the public, like your unfenced front lawn. If someone steps on this, you can write a trespass order on loo roll and hand it to him, and it's legal.

Other areas such as enclosed yards are covered by seperate legislation again - a person can be arrested for being inside an enclosed yard with no good reason, whether there is a trespass order against them or not.

It is the right of the public to conduct themselves legally in any public place. If the legal occupier of the property decides to close the area to the public and ask people to leave, that is his perogative. If he wants to ask a few selected individuals to stay, he may do that as well, but he cannot force individuals to leave any public place.

The main thing to remember, is to be squeaky clean, and don't let them rope you into a loud debate, or you will get processed for disorderly behaviour.

Steve

Yes he can.

He can trespass you, he can ban motorcycles and he can use reasonable force to help you leave.

For chrissakes leave private property alone.

[mashman]

interesting thought occurs to me.

the festive season approaches with the corresponding mad rush, panic and craziness.

if it aids the cause to further the mayhem in some select places at select times it would be very easy to do.........

Mayhem is not what people want, especially not at christmas, take a look at this posted in another thread and it may give some idea about what the negative side of NZ is thinking http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=69841&#p1420753.....ps

What can you do to turn that perception around!

[PhantasmNZ]

Trespass Act 1980 (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1980/0065/latest/DLM36927.html?search=ts_all%40act%40bill%40regulat ion_trespass_resel&p=1&sr=1)

3 Trespass after warning to leave
(1) Every person commits an offence against this Act who trespasses on any place and, after being warned to leave that place by an occupier of that place, neglects or refuses to do so.

[CookMySock]

Yes he can.

He can trespass you, he can ban motorcycles and he can use reasonable force to help you leave.

For chrissakes leave private property alone.That was not what was explained to me by the police. Where do you get this from?

Steve

[FROSTY]

I think they cannot enforce a trespass order associated with a public place.Steve
Sorry dude but a mall carpark unless its a council carpark is private property. have a look at the last fair go program for the year.

[davereid]

Hi Steve,

There is a common idea that Security guards have no powers, can't do anything and are just useless cunts.

The concept that they have no powers is absoutely incorrect, they just have no special powers.

Police operated like this for many years, working entirely under the powers they (and we all) hold under common law.

Only in recent times have the police been given special powers, but the old common law powers still exist, and a lot of modern guards do a 4-level NZQA qualification, so they know exactly what they can and can't do.

The difference is knowledge. The Guard will know when you cross the line, and he will help you step over it.

A bouncer can throw you out of a club or pub, and use force if he needs to.

Guards can throw you out of a mall.

Guards can arrest you for a large range of offences, and after dark they get even more power.

You might be lucky, and find an old school guard at your Mall, he will be a 70 year old tongan father of 8, earning a few extra bob, and he won't do anything because he doesnt know the extent of his powers.

But you may find that your mall has hired a new professional guard. He will know his powers, and he is likely to be just the sort of buggar to enjoy using them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The basics are.. its a publicly accessable place, not a public place - its private property, you are there at the implied invitation of the owner. (Note that carparks operated by the council are a public place, which is completely different.)

That invitation can be removed at any time, at which time you can be asked to leave, and if you don't you can be removed.

Any property you leave behind can be held by the landowner - so if you are helped off the south end of the mall, and your bike is at the north end, you can't legally go back to get it, and you can be charged for its recovery / unclamping / towing.

Then you can be trespassed, so you can never go back, until the landowner changes his mind.

The worst thing is, the landowner might just get pissed off, and tell the guards - NO BIKES, let them park on the street.

And that fucks it up for everyone.

[CookMySock]

Ok, I see.

Reality check though, aren't we talking about a council carpark?

Steve

[davereid]

Ok, I see. Reality check though, aren't we talking about a council carpark?
Steve

If its a council carpark - new rules.

Thats a public place as opposed to a publicly accessible place, and a guard can't move you on.

You would have to do something criminally illegal before he could even touch you, and even then he would not unless he is a complete idiot.

Go for you life in public places, just make sure you arent actually on private land !

[wingrider]

As I understand it, in a public place you can not be trespassed but can be charged with criminal nuisence.

There are also rules covering "Groups" causing public disruption.

Might be a long shot but all it takes is a sympathetic judge and we a doggy doo.

[Ozzie]

Great idea, but totally impractical. Westfield would throw you out as quickly as you could get set up.

I worry about this idea. I think it could very quickly turn into a face-off with Plastic Badge security guards and bikers (tip: Don't call them "Officer Plastic Badge" to their faces, DAMHIK) - and bikers would be portrayed as the bad guys.

I think the Teddy Bear Run was a great idea. If we were looking at something like that again, I'd say maybe a canned food drive for the City Mission or some such.

I think this idea has some merit.

What if the dude that knows the westfield dude, was to ask if this would be something they would allow?

In the middle of one of the isles, park up 3 or 4 perfectly clean bikes, with the riders dressed in normal work attire, handing out information to Joe public.

Have some balloons, a sign up for info sheet, photo ops for the kiddy's, maybe even have Santa on a Harley.

Not threatening, but an opportunity for Joe, who is interested in having the whole story, to get the good oil.

The information sheet would need to be fact, not slander or propaganda. Focus on the real impact to society of allowing this change to go through. The priciple message. Take the arguement away from being about bikers and our wallets, reinforce that we are defending Joe, even though he doesn't get it, and ACC and the Govt are playing on that.

If done right, Westfield, M10 Mega, whomever would not have any issue with it, in fact, may be very accommodating.

[PhantasmNZ]

I think this idea has some merit.

What if the dude that knows the westfield dude, was to ask if this would be something they would allow?

In the middle of one of the isles, park up 3 or 4 perfectly clean bikes, with the riders dressed in normal work attire, handing out information to Joe public.

Have some balloons, a sign up for info sheet, photo ops for the kiddy's, maybe even have Santa on a Harley.

Not threatening, but an opportunity for Joe, who is interested in having the whole story, to get the good oil.

The information sheet would need to be fact, not slander or propaganda. Focus on the real impact to society of allowing this change to go through. The priciple message. Take the arguement away from being about bikers and our wallets, reinforce that we are defending Joe, even though he doesn't get it, and ACC and the Govt are playing on that.

If done right, Westfield, M10 Mega, whomever would not have any issue with it, in fact, may be very accommodating.



come up with a proposal, and I'm happy to ask.. My friend runs one of the bigger malls in the Auckland area. Given the negative press around "bikers threatening to close malls", I'm reluctant to go there to even ask without a good proposal and some assurance of no trouble. If the planned "shutdowns" go ahead then there will be absolutely no chance of cooperation (and indeed may result in bikes in general being excluded )

Don't underestimate the self-preservation instincts of coporations!!

[Subike]

There is an oppotunity here to get lots of public support.
In the origional post there was this line.

They revealed yesterday a plan to "shut down" one of the Westfield retail group's nine Auckland malls on Saturday next week by filling its parking spaces with "a conglomerate of bikers, taxis, couriers and truckies".

Most of this thread has been a concentration on the actions of bikers at this event, yet you have all missed the fact that other road users are also going to be there.
SO?

If we , the bikers, are the most well behaved, supplying information to the public, make it a fun thing for kidies, try and look like the good fellas, then this could work for us.
We dont need to block the public access, leave that to the truckies, taxis and couries. Let them piss the public off, they do that often enough anyway.

Let us look at finding the best way of having a protest in this place but in such a way that we are the nice guys.

The headline could be something like,
"Peaceable bikers protest distroyed by truckis, taxis and courier operators"

""Today 150 bikers tried to get ther message accross to the public about the ACC falsehood, but were put in a bad light by other road users who blocked publc access to their Saturday shopping. Biker spokespersons stated they did not want to cause problems for shoppers and are disapointed their efforts were distroyed by the actions of the other protestors.""

Can anybody see where this whole thing could be turned into a bigger advantage , us gaining more public support, and the issure slammed again into the public eye.
It would also send the message to other bikers, the fact, peacefull works!

[Mully]

What if the dude that knows the westfield dude, was to ask if this would be something they would allow?

In the middle of one of the isles, park up 3 or 4 perfectly clean bikes, with the riders dressed in normal work attire, handing out information to Joe public.

If done right, Westfield, M10 Mega, whomever would not have any issue with it, in fact, may be very accommodating.

I don't see permission happening, but it might be worth a try. It's effectively a political protest situation. No corporates would be prepared to appear to support what we are doing.

In all honesty, I don't see it happening even if it was only cars whose levies were getting inflated unfairly. Westfield (and anyone else for that matter) will want to distance themselves from the smelly bikers.

[Tank]

Ok, I see.

Reality check though, aren't we talking about a council carpark?

Steve

sigh - NO!

Most Westfields own their own carparks. again - its private parking, private land and yes you can be tresspassed.

[CookMySock]

"Peaceable bikers protest distroyed by truckis, taxis and courier operators"I think if you intentionally scapegoat someone like that, they will probably drop you like a hot brick, and if you are really unlucky they will return the "favour".

Steve

[GOONR]

I think if you intentionally scapegoat someone like that, they will probably drop you like a hot brick, and if you are really unlucky they will return the "favour".

Steve

I agree, except I don't think that you would have to be "unlucky" for the favour to wing it's way back. It would just be a matter of time.

[Subike]

I think if you intentionally scapegoat someone like that, they will probably drop you like a hot brick, and if you are really unlucky they will return the "favour".

Steve

Steve, think man, I said the media could write it like that, not us drop them in it, differing thing bud. look outside the narrow vision you seem to have.
We cannot control what the media print, if we could then our message would be easy to get out there.
We need to present ourselves to the public as the good guys defending our country, our rights, and the heritage of our children and grandchildren.
I am sure that we will get both good and bad media when we aline ourselves with other groups.
Propogander is all part of warfare. Sometimes bad headlines can produce sympathy from those watching.

[CookMySock]

Yeah maybe bro, but I think its all a risky proposition, and all just a little to "convenient".

Yeah for sure we can't control the media, but that can swing either way. For the moment it has gone our way, but I wouldn't count on that remaining.

Steve

[Gubb]

That was not what was explained to me by the police. Where do you get this from?

Steve
Heard of a thing called "The Law"?

[Ozzie]

come up with a proposal, and I'm happy to ask.. My friend runs one of the bigger malls in the Auckland area. Given the negative press around "bikers threatening to close malls", I'm reluctant to go there to even ask without a good proposal and some assurance of no trouble. If the planned "shutdowns" go ahead then there will be absolutely no chance of cooperation (and indeed may result in bikes in general being excluded )

Don't underestimate the self-preservation instincts of coporations!!

i'll give it some thort tomorrow, a little to liberal with the honesty juice right now, stay tuned

[Ozzie]

I don't see permission happening, but it might be worth a try. It's effectively a political protest situation. No corporates would be prepared to appear to support what we are doing.

In all honesty, I don't see it happening even if it was only cars whose levies were getting inflated unfairly. Westfield (and anyone else for that matter) will want to distance themselves from the smelly bikers.

All the more reason to make it clear, its not about bikers, we're just first in the firing line, it is about everyone!

Hate to be the one, given the totally oz way of being, to say, as a member of the greater kiwi population, this sucks shit.

As a biker, as an OZ in NZ, or (fuck it) as a Kiwi, it just aint right, I'll stand and be counted, I'll assure mr westfield, stand by me, we'l make it right, the nice way, or the not so nice way.

You help us now, you'll be the good guy, no one shits in their own nest!

Don't help us, well, it aint a threat, but I dont control everyone, well, truth be know, I dont controll fuck all, but be nice, give us our place, and you'll come off better for it.

:beer:

[PhantasmNZ]

Y'know...

I'm not at all sure that the Westfiled malls are the right place to do this permission or not....

if you did want a few bikes and a leaflet campaign and a show of who are the bikers, were not all neandethals etc, sit your kiddy on the bike for a pic etc... why would the (generally closed off) carparks of a mall help.

You'd wanna park those bikes somewhere with maximum foot traffic - think Vulcan Lane, or Aotea Square - somewhere open and neutral. If you're not going for maximum disruption - not sure why a mall is the best target..

[kwaka_crasher]

This just in! Blockading a shopping centre which is private property that you can be trespassed from is still

A FUCKING DUMB IDEA!

By all means, seek permission for hand out information near the pedestrian entrances and don't be pushy about it.

[laRIKin]

Blockading a shopping centre which is private property that you can be trespassed from is still

A FUCKING DUMB IDEA!

X1 Silly idea.

How can they change anything as they have nothing to do with the change of levy's.

Block Parliament if you want to block anything.

[Skyryder]

X1 Silly idea.

How can they change anything as they have nothing to do with the change of levy's.

Block Parliament if you want to block anything.

Yep a nice 'spontanouse' protest from the grass roots. And where it counts too. I think the House is under urgency at the moment. That would realy piss Key off.

Skyryder

[Sis]

Get your submissions into the select Committee this week.
I think the deadline is 26th November