Brash disrespects Anzac

[Timber020]

Wellington dawn parade, real cold but still a good turnout. Pretty much the same as every dawn parade that I have been to, was even lucky enough to have my partner with me.

One of the speakers was Don Brash, and he said a lungful. He really went on which is fine. But half of his speech didnt seem to be about Anzac day. He talked about threats of terrorism, doing more to be prepared, being closer to old allies, making more of an effort. All in the middle of the speech.

Around me I heard people groan, whispers of "oh not here." and "not today of all days". "Wanker" was all I could think of. I know hes a politician, but he was a guest and this isnt his day. To push his own agenda at dawn parade just made my blood boil. I was really angry, shit Im still angry. Fuck Im really angry. So many died due to the ignorance of politicians at places such as galipolli and heres another idiot going for it, blind to the effect of his ignorance, arrogance and general bullshit. Im never cheerful on anzac day but thats due to its setting. This time I feel like coca cola just tried to sponsor my grandfathers funeral. FUCKER :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ms Piggy]

Sadly it is election year so he's grabbing at every chance he can get...yet again revealing just how out of touch with reality and real peole he is!

[fliplid]

Bl**dy politicians

A time of reflection and honouring those who lost their lives in conflicts (from whatever side) aint a time for electioneering :mad:

[ratusratus]

and he spread one over anzac day and dishonoured mine and our memorys
i cant be bloody bothered with pricks like that

[TonyB]

Definitely the wrong day to push a political agenda. What a dickhead.

[inlinefour]

He disrepects logic and intelligence every time he opens his mouth! :killingme

[Big Dave]

we attended a very nice 9am service at Tauranga. Cold but sunny, lovely messages from the region's youth.
Made me realise just how close our cultures are - and how i miss a game of 2 up - after the service in Oz - everyone goes to the RSL - gets pissed and plays 2 -up. Come in spinner!
You guys are more dignified I guess.

anyway, to all servicemen from both sides of the ditch - on this day: Thank you.

[Timber020]

Man he got my goat. Of all things he even pronounced Iraq in george bush style. Eye-rack. The guys an idiot, a glorified accountant who knows nothing of sacrifice or risk.
And he didnt sing the national anthem. Not a single word. At least most people in his capacity would try.
Ruined my whole day, disrespectful, self indulgent, arogant, slimey, powerhungry, ignorant, soft cock son of a bitch!!!!!!

[Skyryder]

Man he got my goat. Of all things he even pronounced Iraq in george bush style. Eye-rack. The guys an idiot, a glorified accountant who knows nothing of sacrifice or risk.
And he didnt sing the national anthem. Not a single word. At least most people in his capacity would try.
Ruined my whole day, disrespectful, self indulgent, arogant, slimey, powerhungry, ignorant, soft cock son of a bitch!!!!!!


Flick off your sentiments to letters' to the Ed of your local newspaper. You may welll find that you were not the only one. Embarress the prick and have some fun at his expense.

Skyryder

[Coyote]

Whatta prick

Annoying thing is when this country is under war, politicians like him will be protected in bunkers, being given the same star treatment they always get, whilst ordering people to their deaths :mad:

Becoming a politician is a sure-fire way of escaping a nuclear holocaust

[Jackrat]

we attended a very nice 9am service at Tauranga. Cold but sunny, lovely messages from the region's youth.
Made me realise just how close our cultures are - and how i miss a game of 2 up - after the service in Oz - everyone goes to the RSL - gets pissed and plays 2 -up. Come in spinner!
You guys are more dignified I guess.

anyway, to all servicemen from both sides of the ditch - on this day: Thank you.

Dignified ??,not me mate.
Been in Adilade last three days,dawn service and two up. :msn-wink:

Lest we forget.

[Storm]

Lest we forget.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that

[Sniper]

That annoys me, bloody political arse wipe

[Big Dave]

Dignified ??,not me mate.
Been in Adilade last three days,dawn service and two up. :msn-wink:

Lest we forget.

Cheers - did you win?

[Jackrat]

Cheers - did you win?

Down $70, but it was a big day/very emotional,an well worth it.

[Oscar]

Brash disrespects ANZAC.
That RNZAF wanker (Chief of Defence Staff?) at Gallopoli insults ANZACS and British.
John Howard insults New Zealand.
Did I miss anyone?

[Krusti]

Couldn't make it to Dawn Parade....milking moo's....but spent many hours watching History channel on Sky re WW1 and ANZACs ....Almost had me in tears...sat there with son watching thinking poor bastards...all because of stupid politicians....Made me smile tho when they said that a Pommie commander...Hamilton I think...said, "The maori's are making a charge up the hill, not sure if we will tell them from the Turks"...idiot!

Certainly made me proud to be a Kiwi..We think we are real men these days but we have no idea ..Good on ya Diggers...:Punk:

[Indiana_Jones]

With more men and reasources I rekcon the Dardanelles might of worked, but that wasn't going to happen as the western front was more important to us poms, go the Somme, 20,000 dead in one day :bs:

I celebrate both ANZAC day and armistice day :niceone:

-Indy

[TwoSeven]

To be honest, after listening to what he said, I agree with him.

Spend time in france and you'll here about how they regret letting their armed forces slide into disrepair. Not only did they get invaded twice, but the other countries that let theirs degrade as well couldnt help.

It would be a shame to get invaded, but it would be an even worse crime not to be able to help a country when they need it most.

[Indiana_Jones]

To be honest, after listening to what he said, I agree with him.

Spend time in france and you'll here about how they regret letting their armed forces slide into disrepair. Not only did they get invaded twice, but the other countries that let theirs degrade as well couldnt help.

It would be a shame to get invaded, but it would be an even worse crime not to be able to help a country when they need it most.

I agree, but this socialist government lives in a la-la land where they think we'll never get invaded, and if we did, we'll be saved by someone else ...... yeah right :msn-wink:

-Indy

[Oscar]

I agree, but this socialist government lives in a la-la land where they think we'll never get invaded, and if we did, we'll be saved by someone else ...... yeah right :msn-wink:

-Indy

Maybe Cuba and Bulgaria would come to our aid...

[Indiana_Jones]

Maybe Cuba and Bulgaria would come to our aid...

CHE SHALL SAVE US!

http://www.artofwarsuntzu.com/Che.gif

-Indy

[Wolf]

Whatta prick

Annoying thing is when this country is under war, politicians like him will be protected in bunkers, being given the same star treatment they always get, whilst ordering people to their deaths :mad:
That's why I don't like the armed forces - they are basically under the command of cowards who will not or cannot fight. Who the fuck wants to be taking orders from the likes of our politicians or G W Bush? (or any modern Prime Minister, President or Royal for that matter - pack of cowards, all of them)

Very easy to declare war when you have a bomb-proof bunker under your residence and its not you that's going out to face the enemy gunfire - just a bunch of strangers that only exist for you as numbers on a piece of paper.

Upper echelons of the Armed forces are also cowardly arseholes anyway - Generals and Admirals also get to stay home "where it's safe" these days rather than leading the troops they command.

[Oscar]

That's why I don't like the armed forces - they are basically under the command of cowards who will not or cannot fight. Who the fuck wants to be taking orders from the likes of our politicians or G W Bush? (or any modern Prime Minister, President or Royal for that matter - pack of cowards, all of them)

Very easy to declare war when you have a bomb-proof bunker under your residence and its not you that's going out to face the enemy gunfire - just a bunch of strangers that only exist for you as numbers on a piece of paper.

Upper echelons of the Armed forces are also cowardly arseholes anyway - Generals and Admirals also get to stay home "where it's safe" these days rather than leading the troops they command.

Um...the irony of this statement (which I would normally agree with) is that the ultimate commander of the Gallopoli landings was the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill. He knew all about war, first hand.

[Coldkiwi]

indeed, brash using a memorial day to push a political point of view is pretty sad. But I'm not sure that its as sad as what labour is doing to the defence forces. I can see why he did it but don't think he reached the right decision regarding where he chose to let fly.

[Wolf]

Um...the irony of this statement (which I would normally agree with) is that the ultimate commander of the Gallopoli landings was the First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill. He knew all about war, first hand.
Yeah, and Henry Tudor (King Henry V) led his troops on a rampage through France during the Hundred Year War - but what have any of the current bunch done? When did GW Bush or Don Brash last lead a charge against the guns? How many battles have our current Generals etc actually been in (actually faced fire, not merely "presided over") I did say "modern" in my post.

I think we need to go back to the old values - if a politician wants to wage war, said politician should take up a sword and lead the way. In fairness, the opponents should be likewise armed - nothing with a greater range than bows and ballistae, infantry to be armed with swords... No hiding on the other side of the world and pounding them with cruise missiles.

If you can't look your opponent in the eye from a couple of feet away and accept the risk that (s)he'll kill you, you have no place commanding people to die for you. In GW Bush's case we can also add "if you can't obey the UN's rules yourself, you can't call your opponent "lawless" and attempt to claim a moral high-ground" and also "if you can't even speak your nation's garbled version of English properly, you're not fit to rule a knitting group".

[Oscar]

Yeah, and Henry Tudor (King Henry V) led his troops on a rampage through France during the Hundred Year War - but what have any of the current bunch done? When did GW Bush or Don Brash last lead a charge against the guns? How many battles have our current Generals etc actually been in (actually faced fire, not merely "presided over") I did say "modern" in my post.

I think we need to go back to the old values - if a politician wants to wage war, said politician should take up a sword and lead the way. In fairness, the opponents should be likewise armed - nothing with a greater range than bows and ballistae, infantry to be armed with swords... No hiding on the other side of the world and pounding them with cruise missiles.

If you can't look your opponent in the eye from a couple of feet away and accept the risk that (s)he'll kill you, you have no place commanding people to die for you. In GW Bush's case we can also add "if you can't obey the UN's rules yourself, you can't call your opponent "lawless" and attempt to claim a moral high-ground" and also "if you can't even speak your nation's garbled version of English properly, you're not fit to rule a knitting group".

I'd like to see Helen Clarke in combat (preferrably unarmed against several tanks). What is so hypocritical about Bush is the fact that he used his influence to avoid combat when he was of millitary age.

I don't know what your definition of modern is, but I think the last NZ PM to actually fight in a war was Muldoon. More than one member of our royal family has seen active service, though.

[Ixion]

Yeah, and Henry Tudor (King Henry V) led his troops on a rampage through France during the Hundred Year War - but what have any of the current bunch done? When did GW Bush or Don Brash last lead a charge against the guns? How many battles have our current Generals etc actually been in (actually faced fire, not merely "presided over") I did say "modern" in my post.
..

General John Kiszely , recently (may still be) Senior British Military Representative in Iraq was awarded the Miltary Cross for bravery during close quarters combat, serving with the Scots Guards at Tumbledown, during the Falklands War in 1982.

Don't know about any of the Yanks though. Brit generals are still expected to be figting soldiers, not administrators.

[Wolf]

General John Kiszely , recently (may still be) Senior British Military Representative in Iraq was awarded the Miltary Cross for bravery during close quarters combat, serving with the Scots Guards at Tumbledown, during the Falklands War in 1982.
So Kiszely would be worth following, then. Still a bugger that a wanker like Blair is the one who gives the order to go and fight, tho'.

Oscar, what action did Muldoon see?

[Oscar]

So Kiszely would be worth following, then. Still a bugger that a wanker like Blair is the one who gives the order to go and fight, tho'.

Oscar, what action did Muldoon see?

NZEF - Western Desert. As an NCO he served under an officer called Keith Holyoake.

[Motu]

Brash is a Dork,I hate the man,he has nothing constructive to say,pull this govenment down to gain power - that's his job I suppose,but he needs to stand by what government is in power on ANZAC Day.

Getting rid of the Armed Forces is probably a smart idea in this day of the sue your arse off you did me wrong fucker mentality.The Goverment puts it's Armed Forces in harms way as a part of daily life...shit,what if the guys held them accountable for loss of enjoyment of life,injury...death - oh fuck,let's get rid of them!

[Oscar]

Brash is a Dork,I hate the man,he has nothing constructive to say,pull this govenment down to gain power - that's his job I suppose,but he needs to stand by what government is in power on ANZAC Day.

Getting rid of the Armed Forces is probably a smart idea in this day of the sue your arse off you did me wrong fucker mentality.The Goverment puts it's Armed Forces in harms way as a part of daily life...shit,what if the guys held them accountable for loss of enjoyment of life,injury...death - oh fuck,let's get rid of them!

On the 10th Sept. 2001, if you'd have asked me if we needed an Air Force with strike capability, I'd have said "no".

[James Deuce]

Couldn't make it to Dawn Parade....milking moo's....but spent many hours watching History channel on Sky re WW1 and ANZACs ....Almost had me in tears...sat there with son watching thinking poor bastards...all because of stupid politicians....Made me smile tho when they said that a Pommie commander...Hamilton I think...said, "The maori's are making a charge up the hill, not sure if we will tell them from the Turks"...idiot!

Certainly made me proud to be a Kiwi..We think we are real men these days but we have no idea ..Good on ya Diggers...:Punk:Ian Hamilton was no idiot. If he had any fault, it was that he was far too polite. He requested all the resources he required but was given a fraction of what he needed. He knew it too. He blamed himself 'til his dying day for the failure at Gallipolli, when he was as much a "victim" as any ANZAC commander of political decisions made 2000 miles from the scene of the action.

Churchill and the RN are almost solely to blame for not pushing advantages at sea, and for underestimating Turkish capability and ingenuity.

We also criticise military commanders with both 20/20 hindsight and a social paradigm that was completely foreign to the social structure of our time. It was only the second major Industrialised war fought to that time, and used principles of warfare little different from the Crimea, and the Napoleonic wars. The American Civil War taught lessons that were ignored by the European powers and ultimately by the US herself in WWI. It was a tragedy at the time, and a truly horrible one from our perspective. But it was a tragedy of its time, not ours, and we will always struggle to understand the international environment of the time, the international culture that powered the war machine, and the personal drivers that made men sign up despite the horrors of WWI.

[Oscar]

Ian Hamilton was no idiot. If he had any fault, it was that he was far too polite. He requested all the resources he required but was given a fraction of what he needed. He knew it too. He blamed himself 'til his dying day for the failure at Gallipolli, when he was as much a "victim" as any ANZAC commander of political decisions made 2000 miles from the scene of the action.

Churchill and the RN are almost solely to blame for not pushing advantages at sea, and for underestimating Turkish capability and ingenuity.

We also criticise military commanders with both 20/20 hindsight and a social paradigm that was completely foreign to the social structure of our time. It was only the second major Industrialised war fought to that time, and used principles of warfare little different from the Crimea, and the Napoleonic wars. The American Civil War taught lessons that were ignored by the European powers and ultimately by the US herself in WWI. It was a tragedy at the time, and a truly horrible one from our perspective. But it was a tragedy of its time, not ours, and we will always struggle to understand the international environment of the time, the international culture that powered the war machine, and the personal drivers that made men sign up despite the horrors of WWI.

It's interesting to see how the Australians are revising the history to suite their (Republican) agenda:

from: Gallipoli - the facts behind the Myths (http://www.geoffpartington.net/gallipoli%20.html#aim)


Distorted propaganda is usually at its height during wars but corrected in later years. In the case of Gallipoli the opposite occurred. The official Australian war historian, Charles Bean, was reluctant to hint that Australians were ever less than heroic, and in the interests of maintaining good relationships with Australia, Cecil Aspinall-Oglander, the official British war historian, toned down even implied criticisms of any Australian action. As Rhodes James observed, the result of massaging the truth was an 'Australian mythology that Gallipoli was an Australian triumph thrown away by incompetent British commanders'. Far worse distortions disfigure the Peter Weir film Gallipoli, which seeks to contrast cowardly and idle British troops with ANZAC heroes. Some British troops did bathe and drink tea at Suvla Bay whilst horrific fighting was taking place a few miles to the south, but others were as fully engaged in that conflict as New Zealanders and Australians. Rhodes James noted that the 'suicidal assault' of the Australian Light Horse at The Nek on 7 August 1915 'had nothing to do with the British landing at Suvla, but was intended to help the New Zealanders, as the film's military advisers knew'. However, 'the principal Australian sponsor of the film wanted an anti-British ending, and got it', with 'the deliberately inaccurate final scenes' of the film, a potent source of Australian republican sentiments. Few Australians realise that 'the British, French and Indian causalities were far greater than those of the Anzacs, and that the British bore the brunt of the fighting - and the losses.'

[James Deuce]

Mustapha Kemal regarded the biggest mistake of the whole campaign as the failure of Australian troops to occupy Krithea when they had the opportunity early on in the campaign. This would have allowed the British to occupy the southern half of the peninsula, and provide a defensible logistics base for getting to the forts.

[mikey]

i went ot one down petone at mem gardens, no brash there, if he did turn up an wank on i would of smacked the cunt one. reckon u should of timber.

[Oscar]

Mustapha Kemal regarded the biggest mistake of the whole campaign as the failure of Australian troops to occupy Krithea when they had the opportunity early on in the campaign. This would have allowed the British to occupy the southern half of the peninsula, and provide a defensible logistics base for getting to the forts.

As far as I can see, the whole campaign was built on a faulty premise.
Even if the invaders had of gained the high ground, they were still in range of Turkish guns.

[Ixion]

As far as I can see, the whole campaign was built on a faulty premise.
Even if the invaders had of gained the high ground, they were still in range of Turkish guns.

The wheels fell off when teh Navy failed to carry the Straits. An invasion across land was never going to fly , but London couldn't admit to failure and go home.

[Indiana_Jones]

Millions have died, but the troops have advanced no further than an asthmatic ant with some heavy shopping.

http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/images/editorial/generalarticle/entertainment/TV/male/blackadder_rex_21Aug03_170.jpg

"Clearly, Field Marshal Haig is about to make yet another gargantuan effort to move his drinks cabinet six inches closer to Berlin."

:niceone:

-Indy

[Big Dave]

It's interesting to see how the Australians are revising the history to suite their (Republican) agenda:
[/URL]

Bull.
One film maker is not 'the Australians'. Nobody believed that romanticised twaddle - we were taught at school of the real horrors just like you blokes.
It was as realistic as a John Wayne movie.

The real story has not changed in the almost 40 years I have been listening to it, nor has the criticism of English been exagerated for republican gain - it has always been very harsh.

[Oscar]

Bull.
One film maker is not 'the Australians'. Nobody believed that romanticised twaddle - we were taught at school of the real horrors just like you blokes.

And the story has not changed in the almost 40 years I have been listening to it, nor has the criticism of English been exagerated for republican gain - it has always been very harsh.

Read the article, he makes some good points. Why would the original ANZAC's blame the British? They considered themselves to be British. When all is said and done, all the ANZAC's were volunteers, and they volunteered despite what was going on in Western Europe at the time and with the blessing of their respective Governments. If those guys hadn't gone to Turkey it would have been the Western Front where things would have been much the same. This was the nature of war at the time. Why don't the Germans or the Austrians get the blame? They started it.

The anti-English sentiment belies the fact that twice as many British were killed at Gallopli than ANZACs. Sure blame the Generals and the Politicians, but not the soliders.

Slightly different rant - Our Chief of Defence Staff, what a dork:



"..Air Marshal Ferguson described the Gallipoli campaign as the high-water
mark of subservience to Britain and the military strategy as "joint
leadership at its worst". He said this had forced Australia and New
Zealand to shake off their colonial shackles and become more assertive.
British incompetence had robbed them of their "youth and destroyed our
innocence".

This is complete revisionist crap.

[Big Dave]

Read the article, he makes some good points. Why would the original ANZAC's blame the British? They considered themselves to be British.

Never! not since the term 'POHM' was first coined around the time of the second fleet.
Sure 'Queen and country' and 'Empire' and all that, but I believe they went to war seeing an opportunity to make a name for themselves as Australians. Exactly the same drive that spurs our current day quest for ever more sporting success - national identity and pride and to prove they could rise above the convict heritage.

I will read the article later. chairs.

[Oscar]

. Exactly the same drive that spurs our current day quest for ever more sporting success - national identity and pride and to prove they could rise above the convict heritage.



So true.
It's the lack of that drive that has been lacking in this Country until recently. The Anglo-Scots settlers in this country were far too comfortable, too quickly...

[TwoSeven]

I would agree with the aussies changing history. I was watching some idiot on tv this afternoon. He was trying to claim that the british generals were using aussies to do the dangerous jobs and they suffered 77% casualties while the brits only suffered 55%.

What he failed to realise is that the aussies commanded their own forces (they were federated before the war) - so they took hits because they had inexperienced commanders. Only the senior command were british and they didnt take part in the actual execution of orders, that was left to local commanders.

Second of all lots of lessons were learned from that battle - remember it was one of the first major conflicts of the war. They learned about mobility, artil support, communications, beach landings (later improved for wwii). Also, dont forget that it destroyed so much of the turkish forces that they later lost the desert wars.

Finally, remember that all of the troops involved on all sides were not compat trained. Galipoli was everyones first go. Even the local section leaders didnt know how to scout the enemy and size objectives, or re-interpret orders as they did later. There was a classic move where one (kiwi) commander ordered frontal assults on a machine gun position, simply because thats how he interpreted the order (which said take the hill, but didnt say how). Anyone else would have called in artil. which was a technique often used by the british during the same battle.

I suspect that it is remembered by Aus and NZ because its the first major defeat their troops suffered during the war. Just about every country remembers one of their defeats - the poms have dunkirk from WWII.

[James Deuce]

Oscar and Ixion - that is the point I'm making - One of the reasons the British forces were defeated was that their defensive position, almost from day one, allowed for their defeat in detail. If they had made level ground and established a defensible infrastructure, they RN may well have been able to regroup and carry out their mission, allowing the scope for the ground forces to achieve their objectives. We'll never know though.

I have a unique view of this fight as my Great Grandfather (Paternal Grandmother's Father) deserted from HMS Lion in 1912 whilst it visited NZ. He was a boy sailor, aged 14. When war broke out he signed up with the NZ Expeditionary force, and landed at Z beach with the ANZACs. My Paternal Grandmother divorced and remarried in 1973, and her new husband's father served with the Plymouth Royal Marines. I believe they were slaughtered on Y beach. He survived and de-mobbed in the '20s. The multi-lateral aspects of this battle are often overlooked in our trans-Tasman zealotry to assign the battle "nation-building" status. Personally I would rather ANZAC day reminded us how NOT to run military operation, and how the single most important thing in anything is cross-discipline inter-communication.

We should also reflect how the "independent spirit" of ANZAC troops throughout WWI went some way toward inspiring concepts of personal freedom and individual rights. Those ideas were foreign to European cultures, apart from a number of philosophers ahead of their times. We take them for granted now, but it wasn't until the League of Nations formed in the '20s that the idea was raised, and then later formalised by the UN Charter of Human Rights. The 90th anniversary has been a bit blighted by focussing on negative aspects of the military campaign, by politicians maing a political point, and by the misunderstanding that we can apply our values to the attitudes of men who fought in the Gallipolli campaign, and are now all dead. The Turks forgave us at the time. Surely we can forgive ourselves?

[TwoSeven]

On a slight change of subject. I notice that TV3 havnt reported the slight the kiwi commander made duing his speech. Its been on all the international news channels.

[Ghost Lemur]

"I highly doubt anyone who heard my comments took offense"
- Don Brash on Talkback*

:killingme Anyone who's so well tuned with the mere common folk (or everyday NZ'ers as he seems to often refer to him) should definitely be in charge of a government.


* - May not be word for word accurate, as I only heard it once briefly while I was driving the work car.

[Timber020]

[QUOTE=Ghost Lemur]"I highly doubt anyone who heard my comments took offense"
- Don Brash on Talkback*


GGGGGRRRRRRRR easiest way to kill a man and get away with it is to take him hunting, deep sea fishing, or logging, wonder if he wants to come see me at work......