Knee-down trainer frame?

[CookMySock]

Any suggestions on making a "knee-down trainer frame" ?

The idea is to weld together some sort of frame and attach it to the footpegs or wherever, so as to support the bike and rider laid over doing circles with their knee on the ground to build their confidence and set their posture when doing the same thing for real. I'll probably put it on the Hyo Comet 250, as its a cheapie and not too catastrophic to drop.

Doesn't have to be as elaborate is this, but same idea ;
<img src="http://kneedown.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/dscf3083_cropped.JPG">

Steve

[Highlander]

I must have missed something. I don't understand the whole fascination you guys seem to have with getting your knee down.

[CookMySock]

Perhaps you didnt notice, but this is the mechanics forum, and not rant and rave or PD.

There is no "fascination." The issue is, riders new and old alike, are completely unaware of "how it feels" to corner a bike fully, and thus have this unresolved fear of ever leaning a bike past their comfort levels. This does them a huge disservice, as in an emergency (and many other times), they are unlikely to corner the bike to its' full potential and saving their own miserable lives.

The whole point is to support the rider past this stage, so they can use whatever angle of lean they choose at their whim, rather than just being a product of their fears and beliefs.

All this should have been taken-as-read from my first post, but for your benefit and others, heres the long explanation.

Mechanical stuff please, or start your own thread in rant and rave.

Steve

[YellowDog]

Maybe the ones with really "miserable lives." don't want to be saved :lol:

The contraption looks interesting. I wonder what kind of speed it would support. A You-Tube thingy would be good. I guess it is there for support only, but if you really screwed things up you would end up wearing it.

Neat idea.

[Highlander]

Perhaps you didnt notice, but this is the mechanics forum, and not rant and rave or PD.

:Oops: Quite right I didn't notice where this thread was. But now that I'm here....



There is no "fascination." The issue is, riders new and old alike, are completely unaware of "how it feels" to corner a bike fully, and thus have this unresolved fear of ever leaning a bike past their comfort levels. This does them a huge disservice, as in an emergency (and many other times), they are unlikely to corner the bike to its' full potential and saving their own miserable lives.

The whole point is to support the rider past this stage, so they can use whatever angle of lean they choose at their whim, rather than just being a product of their fears and beliefs. .

Would putting the bike into a frame to support it when tipped over that far really give me the confidence to tip it that far when not in the frame?

[koba]

Why?

Sounds like you are overthinking the "problem".

My mechanical solution is a CB125 single in a clean carpark, if someone can't get their knee down after a day of trying on one of these they are probably always going to have problems with it.

[Quasievil]

I seen some stoopid shit but that takes the cake.

if you need that fucking thing get off ya bike and buy a car, get half your arse of the seat and lean the bike, job done.

[White trash]

I seen some stoopid shit but that takes the cake.

if you need that fucking thing get off ya bike and buy a car, get half your arse of the seat and lean the bike, job done.
I'm in agreement.

When you're ready to get your knee down, and it becomes neccessity, you'll be able to do it. If not, there's no point.

[StoneY]

Looks like the Chuck Norris Patented Strething assistant

Back in the day a guy brought one along to the club, telling us all we needed one too...instructor sat on his shoulders for 3 sessions, no need for gizmo!

:lol:

[R6_kid]

Grow some balls... 'Knee down' happens when it happens, though I've heard that wearing white boots increases your chances and 'style' ten fold.

I think that frame you've posted isn't for 'knee down' but for practicing sliding the rear.

[Tony.OK]

I seen some stoopid shit but that takes the cake.

if you need that fucking thing get off ya bike and buy a car, get half your arse of the seat and lean the bike, job done.

I'm pretty sure that thing is from the Californian SBK school, and its more for learning to control powerslides.

[rwh]

There is no "fascination." The issue is, riders new and old alike, are completely unaware of "how it feels" to corner a bike fully, and thus have this unresolved fear of ever leaning a bike past their comfort levels.

I've never done it (I touched my toe down once), but "how it feels" isn't going to be remotely the same between this and the real thing - the forces will be all out of balance, so you'd be hanging on to the bars to hold yourself up.

Richard

[Usarka]

Can someone build me a frame on wheels to hold my front wheel up? I want to practice wheelies but I'm too noob.

[paddy]

In defence of "The Contraption" I use about the middle 2" of my tyres. I slowly becoming more confident leaning the bike over but I doubt I will ever lean the bike THAT far (I just don't ride that aggressively). So from a purely academic perspective it would interest me to ride it although I doubt I would learn anything much from it.

A couple of thoughts - I would think a simple pyramid shape (with a wheel on the end) sticking out of the bike would do it.

I'd be interesting to know how it behaved compared to a "real" bike as it would keep tire on the ground beyond the point where you would normally have lowsided. I don't know how you would simulate that for except perhaps to set it high enough so that it only touches down beyond the lowside threshold. But then that threshold varies with speed. I can also imagine that, in that scenario, the jolt when it catches you would be enough to throw you off. I wonder if that's why the one in the picture has hydraulics? Maybe there is a clever brain in it?

As for the carpark idea. If there were a clean flat carpark with a bike that could be dropped and helmet/codura/whatever supplied, I would definitely try that (in the context of a riding course). I wonder if a better project would be to figure out how protected you could make a GN125. No lights, oggy knobs, crash bars, bark busters....

[paddy]

Can someone build me a frame on wheels to hold my front wheel up? I want to practice wheelies but I'm too noob.

Don't stunters have little wheels or sliders on their tails for doing 12 o'clock wheelies?

[imdying]

You have one Steve, it's called a Daytona!

[CookMySock]

@paddy, many thanks for your constructive input. Yes I don't know what I would "learn" from it, but I think it might change the way my brain processes things.

Academic perspective, yes, well we are playing with things of the motorcycle related category, and that is always going to be interesting.

There are two methods I am thinking of.

1.) where the bike is supported at a constant angle by a rigid but castoring wheel. The bike sits on its newly acquired third wheel even when parked, and the frame is used exclusively to allow the rider to get used to the posture. The bike won't handle normally until they get a good dose of speed on.

2.) where the arm has some scraper on it that touches the ground but does not support the bike and makes some sound the rider can use to indicate their angle of lean while they safely acclimatise their brain to it. The bike is simply ridden around in some manner until the scraper makes its noise, and then the indicator angle is increased more and more, all the while reassuring the rider. The bike has a frame on each side, and otherwise is ridden normally.

There are a couple of carparks nearby. We haven't asked, but if we tell them what we're doing, and offer a chance to try it, I bet they will be really keen.


I wonder if a better project would be to figure out how protected you could make a GN125. No lights, oggy knobs, crash bars, bark busters....Well pretty much thats what the comet 250 is, but just a better one than the GN125. Yeah I could crashframe it etc, but I don't know that we would be going that hardcore with it.. Just a bit of kneescrapin'.


Would putting the bike into a frame to support it when tipped over that far really give me the confidence to tip it that far when not in the frame?It is more about getting the rider used to the posture. After that there is less fear associated with the manoevre.

Lets make no bones about it - it's all in the riders' head. We are gently easing the rider into something that takes a lot of willpower to otherwise achieve. Experienced riders get it. Newbies don't. and often never will. My learner crew will get it - thats my task.

Steve

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I gotta say I don't get it either. What are you trying to teach? Racing? 'cause there's no way you need to hang off on the road that much & if there's time to do that in an emergency there was time to avoid what the problem was anyway.

What you are more likely to promote is newbies hanging off ridiculously on the road in a position that they can't recover from if an emergency comes up. That is a move for the track where you have done the same corner lap after lap & there are no cars coming the other way or unexpected road debris. I've gone through 1/2doz kneesliders on each side, but I've never dragged my knee on the road or even got close.

The powersliding rig, now that could be interesting, but a dirtbike on mud will get you most of the way there with some respect that it's going to land you on yer arse from time to time.

& I'm with Koba with the idea that if you really must, just get a small bike with some decent tyres & a low seat.

[AllanB]

Don't get it.

It's a interesting contraption and I'd like a go just for FUN. :banana:

For road riding you should never be going that fast that you actually NEED to get your knee down (I'm thinking of getting ACC to sponsor that comment).

And on the track you'll progressively get faster and 'get your knee down' as experience and speed increase.

I'd be more worried about people trying that device then getting cocky and throwing the bike over without the mechanics to save them. Plus the whole point of getting off the seat and the consequent knee-down is to keep the bike as upright as possible so the tyre has more contact and can be accelerated out earlier.

If you really want to get your knee down, go to the track and practice.

I like watching people on group rides - lots of riders in front of me with their knees cocked way out and arse crack balanced on the edge of the seat on a mild corner, while I cruise around after them with my arse firmly planted in the middle of the seat at the same speed ........

Maybe there is something wrong with me for not being 'knee-down' obsessed? Do I require therapy? Maybe a deep tissue massage would help?

[CookMySock]

I guess we're just having fun, more than really "teaching" anything - kneedown is a fun thing to be able to do. I more expected people might join in, than belittle the idea, or persuade the OP otherwise, but hey on KB it's all about who else is right, rather than whether anyone is having fun with anything. The end result though, is no one has fun as any constructive prospect gets rudely pulled to pieces.

Honestly, I did think for a second that wouldnt happen. :weird:

Steve

[The Pastor]

Hey make a welder using an lpg tank and go for it.

[wysper]

Isn't this a similar idea to the BMW Car driving school where they have rigs that simulate loss of traction/control?

I think it would be interesting to know how far a bike could lean and still retain control. I know that there is the learn on the track brigade. But not everyone wants to go on the track.

I will most likely never get my knee down, never push any bike I own anywhere near its limits, but I would still be interested in finding out in a safe way.

It would be interesting as part of an advanced rider training course.

[I GS 1]

One thing you would have to watch is once it touches, you have a third point carrying some weight and this will reduce the downforce/grip of the other two points, the tyres. The old airhead beemers had a habit of the tappet covers touching and when they did, you would get a fright as either front or back tyre would very suddenly loose grip (the smoother the road, the less the problem) (and it didn't take much before the oil would start dripping through). On them, toe sticking out at quite an angle would give you some idea of how far down/close to touching you were)

[Katman]

I more expected people might join in, than belittle the idea, or persuade the OP otherwise, but hey on KB it's all about who else is right, rather than whether anyone is having fun with anything.

I'm signing up with the belittling team.

[F5 Dave]

I guess we're just having fun, more than really "teaching" anything . . .

ok so if you were honest about it in the first place it would have attracted a lot less "Why"

but posting this didn't help;


. . .
It is more about getting the rider used to the posture. After that there is less fear associated with the manoevre.

Lets make no bones about it - it's all in the riders' head. We are gently easing the rider into something that takes a lot of willpower to otherwise achieve. Experienced riders get it. Newbies don't. and often never will. My learner crew will get it - thats my task.

Steve

People get concerned that new riders will get encouraged into things. If it's a bunch of mates in an unused carpark then why not?

(well the "why not"? is 'cause they should go find a CB125 under a tree & go out & learn)

[Henk]

These knee down trainers are already widely available, they're called buckets.

[Gubb]

I guess we're just having fun, more than really "teaching" anything - kneedown is a fun thing to be able to do. I more expected people might join in, than belittle the idea, or persuade the OP otherwise, but hey on KB it's all about who else is right, rather than whether anyone is having fun with anything. The end result though, is no one has fun as any constructive prospect gets rudely pulled to pieces.

Honestly, I did think for a second that wouldnt happen. :weird:

Steve

I'm pretty sure that there's a fair amount of people on this thread who's day you have brightened with your stunning ideas.

[roadracingoldfart]

Yeah I gotta say I don't get it either. What are you trying to teach? Racing? 'cause there's no way you need to hang off on the road that much
& I'm with Koba with the idea that if you really must, just get a small bike with some decent tyres & a low seat.


I dont get it either........
Hell ive raced for over 27 years and i had to lend my knee sliders to Frenchy at round 5 VMCC as he wore his out. It was the first time my sliders have ever been on the ground and yet ive won several titles and done 6 hour races etc . Im far from slow because of it.

As for Kobas idea, sounds awesome.


Paul.

[Cr1MiNaL]

I'm pretty sure that thing is from the Californian SBK school, and its more for learning to control powerslides.

Now it's worth investing in one of these to learn powerslides... for "knee down" as someone suggested white boots improve your chances significantly as I have discovered for myself. cost $459

[Jantar]

I have worn tyres right to the edge. I have dragged various parts of my bike on the road. I have never, repeat never, touched a knee while riding on the road, and only once on the race track.

I hope you tell anyone who you may be teaching just what your username is. Most appropriate.

[Gremlin]

The only people that fascinated with knee down are those that haven't done it. Seriously... once you do, you wonder what all the goddamn fuss was about.

One trackday will do you fine. I went from no knee down to probably knee down on almost every corner of Taupo's full track. Then it became the useful tool. A simple method of gauging how far you were leaning.

Now that powersliding/drifting rig :love: Normal powerslides are bloody fun, but the risks are rather great... this rig could be a ball of fun :doobey:

[CookMySock]

That is the last time I contribute or ask for input on any idea.

[Quasievil]

That is the last time I contribute or ask for input on any idea.

Do you promise or are you joking?

Bro dont take it personally like that, the thing is stoopid there is no way I would bolt that to the side of my bike for any reason, once it touches down the cornering dynamic would change with the outrigger wheels hitting the deck and would if anything make you crash, thats what I think anyway:yes:

[CookMySock]

Bro dont take it personally like that, the thing is stoopid there is no way I would bolt that to the side of my bike for any reason, once it touches down the cornering dynamic would change with the outrigger wheels hitting the deck and would if anything make you crash, thats what I think anyway:yes:It would if it was done wrong, which is the whole fucking reason I posted about it.

I probably will make up something, but fucked if I will share my success or otherwise about it here.

If turned up at your place and shot your idea down it would turn your lip down too, and unlikely you would speak up again. Do the math.

:finger::finger::finger::finger::finger:

[Jantar]

That is the last time I contribute or ask for input on any idea.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. :done:

The learners on here will be so much safer now.

[SPORK]

It would if it was done wrong, which is the whole fucking reason I posted about it.

I probably will make up something, but fucked if I will share my success or otherwise about it here.

If turned up at your place and shot your idea down it would turn your lip down too, and unlikely you would speak up again. Do the math.

:finger::finger::finger::finger::finger:

mhmm mhmmmm

[Ragingrob]

It would if it was done wrong, which is the whole fucking reason I posted about it.

I probably will make up something, but fucked if I will share my success or otherwise about it here.

If turned up at your place and shot your idea down it would turn your lip down too, and unlikely you would speak up again. Do the math.

:finger::finger::finger::finger::finger:

So somehow you're gonna design something that wouldn't let the bike go down... But somehow doesn't change the weight/cornering of the bike in normal conditions... When in normal conditions the bike would go down...?

[paddy]

You lot can be cruel sometimes. I am a new rider. I don't feel any less safe because DB suggested bolting a frame to the side of a bike. Yes maybe it's a silly idea. Yes it would upset the cornering dynamics. And yes that might render the whole idea useless or dangerous. But I think that is why DB posted in the first place. For discussion. It doesn't need to turn into "you are an idiot". You can be constructive in your criticism. Even if you can't, you can insult the idea without insulting the man.

Now I don't know DB from a bar of soap, but man oh man, listen to yourselves. Nobody is perfect and we all have our own faults.

[Cr1MiNaL]

Haha it's because he rides a HO BAG ! Sell that piece of shit man! LOL

[Juzz976]

I like the powerslide idea and dont see and difficulties in fabrication.
Something I'll keep in the back of my head for when I've got:
1. Money to burn
2. Time for fab
3. A bike I dont give a shit about
4. Tyres, lots of tyres and someone to fit them.
5. Somewhere to use the thing (nice flat smooth surface with room to slide.)

Otherwise great idea!

[Quasievil]

If turned up at your place and shot your idea down it would turn your lip down too, and unlikely you would speak up again. Do the math.



I came to your place??

and I dont have dum ideas, Im to clever :bleh:

[I GS 1]

The only people that fascinated with knee down are those that haven't done it. Seriously... once you do, you wonder what all the goddamn fuss was about.

One trackday will do you fine. I went from no knee down to probably knee down on almost every corner of Taupo's full track. Then it became the useful tool. A simple method of gauging how far you were leaning.

Now that powersliding/drifting rig :love: Normal powerslides are bloody fun, but the risks are rather great... this rig could be a ball of fun :doobey:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/geckoracing/4130051715/" title="GSAscratching(big)2 by i90si, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2638/4130051715_3a218e795e_b.jpg" width="1024" height="818" alt="GSAscratching(big)2" /></a>

For most it still remains an adrenalin pumping challenge

[Katman]

It doesn't need to turn into "you are an idiot". You can be constructive in your criticism. Even if you can't, you can insult the idea without insulting the man.



Stick around.

You'll soon understand why.