Best bike to suit a side car?

[The Pastor]

What are your thoughts?

I was thinking a r100 would be ideal.

[Ixion]

I don't think the R100 was qualified for side car work. You need an earlier BMW or an old Brit machine.

[The Pastor]

I don't think the R100 was qualified for side car work. You need an earlier BMW or an old Brit machine.
why ?

[AllanB]

Anything of decent capacity (say 750 plus) that's nice and torquey will suit engine wise. The rest depends on the 'look' you are after - vintage, retro or modern.

Bussa anyone?

There were a few GSX1100 (the big slab tank naked ones) with chairs in the 80's running around at scary speeds!

[Ixion]

There are three other significant factors (if you are talking serious chair work).

1. Gearing. needs to be significantly lower than a solo. Not too big a problem with a chain drive
2. Steering geometry. A chair on a sprotsbike will be a dubious experience.
3. Frame strength . A chair puts a SHIT load more stresses into the frame , and in directions athat the designer never allowed for

The question of HOW to physically connect the chair is also one worth considering. Steel tube frames, not too hard. Cast alloy, hm.

You can't just stick a chair on any bike. Not if you want a safe and workable result.

[Ixion]

why ?

Frame strength and design.

[Voltaire]

Probably due to the rear frame being flimsy and bolted on....but I never knew that at the time I took one all around Europe on an R75/5 fully loaded.

R100 would haul one nicely, probably without dropping the final drive.
Wide bars and a steering damper would help....ideally you'd get leading link front end but $$$$$ and possibly certification.

An XS1000 or any of the big shafty jappers of the early 80's would work.

They are 'fun' but demanding to ride.:apint:

I had a Chaing Jaiing a couple of years ago....fun even with the chair on the right and good for 'air' time lifting the sidecar.

[Ixion]

The /5 (and I think /6) were sidecar qualifed.

To some extent it may be just a "there's not enough people do it now to make it worth the paper work thing". Germans being what they a re.

Some of the Brits used to have two series of bikes - heavy weight, with sidecar lugs. light weight, no lugs.

Of course it does depend on the weight of the chair. A light box sidecar will be a different proposition to a Busmah DA.

[The Pastor]

are/were sidecars detachable?

[Ixion]

Well, classic ones (ie not kneelers) certainly were. And you probably want a detachable, cos otherise getting a wof will be hell on earth (as will getting it vinned)

[The Pastor]

Yeah im thinking about getting a decent bike at the end of next year, and have always liked sidecars and boxer engine bmws. (but i dont know jack about em)

what are you refering to with the /5 and /6?

[Ixion]

Model versions. /5 was older /6 /7 later .

Can't remember the years, but someone will

Expensive now though for a /5 or /6

Someon here (Rosie ??) had a BMW (R80 ?) with a chair. So the R80/100 series can take a chair. I'd still ahve some reservations about fatigue and so on over time.

Even the Brits used to twist the frames occasionally.

Bear in mind that spirited cornering on a combo will have the chair wheel a couple of feet in the air.

That's a lot of weight levered off the frame. Even without a couple of hundredweight of passengers

[crazyhorse]

A hyosung????????????

Make sure you have a good swinger. Cause they'll need to push it along too :laugh: :rofl: :killingme :spanking:

[Ixion]

Probably the best bet nowadays would be either a Harley or a Moto Guzzi.

That said, they fit them to Vespas.

[Voltaire]

A /5 is the one shown on my profile.
1970-73ish

/6 to 76
/7 to ummmm 79

all much the same design wise.

Sidecars were not approved by BMW after 1969....veboten.
There was one at the Bikeoi or Bikehoi if you live in Wanganui.....heavily braced with a fibreglass Watsonian GP...which in the sidecar world are light.

When I got the Chaiing Jaiing Vinned I was quietly told to bring it in as a solo.... the square section tyres were strange to ride on.

[hayd3n]

ive seen this cruise around
lil gn

[Motu]

Yes,after '69 BMW specifically claimed they were not for sidecar use - from my owners manual,in bold type ''sidecar attachment not permitted'' But of course it has been done,you need a subframe for the lower mounts,and a frame for the top mounts to transfer load to the opposite side,and link front to rear.I've got a light farm box chair to go on mine.....someday.

The XS1100 was always a good sidecar tug,and these days I've seen a few Vmax tugs - with that much grunt gearing is ok standard.Anything in the 1,000cc range with a steel tube frame would be suitable.

[pete376403]

The old GS Suzuki shaft drives (850 / 1100) fit the bill - full dual cradle steel frame, torquey motor, lazy steering geometry, etc. If I ever get my arse into gear theres an 1100 in the shed waiting for a chair.

A mate has a 1100 yamaha v twin cruiser with a watsonian 1 1/2 adult chair that looks like it came from the yamaha catalog. Goes well, too.

[wingrider]

Many Goldwing gl1200 and gl1500 had cars fitted.
no gearing changes needed.

Would recommend a change to 'ezisteer" front end. Normal rake is no good.
Have a look at the NZ Goldwing riders site and click on the picture gallery.

You might want to even consider a trike

[Laxi]

R80! you can wear your german army helmet and it's useful for dealing to traffic too:niceone:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/picture.php?albumid=2249&pictureid=35349

[Ixion]

That's a Zundapp isn't it ?

[Laxi]

That's a Zundapp isn't it ?

shhhh, do you know how hard it is to find a feakn photo of an R80?:no: :rofl:

[Voltaire]

shhhh, do you know how hard it is to find a feakn photo of an R80?:no: :rofl:

or this
the Chinese knock off of the Russian knock off of the BMW r71.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Classic-vintage/auction-254061189.htm

or this little number

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Other/auction-208106417.htm

[Laxi]

or this
the Chinese knock off of the Russian knock off of the BMW r71.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Classic-vintage/auction-254061189.htm



compaired to what you'd pay for a real '35 bmw thats a farrking bargain

[Motu]

Would recommend a change to 'ezisteer" front end. Normal rake is no good.


Leading link or less trail is much better,but not a must.I didn't find lots of trail with a heavy chair too bad,but wide bars help.More trail gives more ''feel''....shit loads of trail gives shit loads of feel,and the shimmy is much more pronounced.

[nudemetalz]

Even a V11 Sport can be a sidecar :)

<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v677/turbo_NZ/?action=view&current=a9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/turbo_NZ/a9.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[The Pastor]

hey that CJ750 looks BRILLIANT.

[The Pastor]

Even a V11 Sport can be a sidecar :)

<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v677/turbo_NZ/?action=view&current=a9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/turbo_NZ/a9.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
who would get in that? looks like a penis!

[pritch]

Why muck about? Buy a Dnieper or a Ural (if they aren't one and the same) they come with a chair in place...

[Devil]

Bandit 1200? Nice low end torque...

[The Pastor]

Why muck about? Buy a Dnieper or a Ural (if they aren't one and the same) they come with a chair in place...
there is a CJ750 + car on TM atm for 7.5k thats pretty good pice - unvinned tho

[one fast tl1ooo]

how about a tl1000s:woohoo:

[crazyhorse]

or a GSXR1000 ????????? oh yeah, silly me, they already use them - good reliable bikes that they are :killingme

[Ixion]

there is a CJ750 + car on TM atm for 7.5k thats pretty good pice - unvinned tho

Vinning could be a pain in the arse. People have done it (there's a bloke posted on here about how to), but it's not easy. Basically problem is getting the info that LTNZ require out of China.

Other thing is that the Chinese machines are (a) bloody slow - you wouldn't be able to maintain 100kph and (b) pretty unreliable

[FROSTY]

One bike I always thought would be perfect as a chair hauler was the Honda V65 sabre. V4 1100cc relaxed riding position. STEEL frame

[The Pastor]

Vinning could be a pain in the arse. People have done it (there's a bloke posted on here about how to), but it's not easy. Basically problem is getting the info that LTNZ require out of China.

Other thing is that the Chinese machines are (a) bloody slow - you wouldn't be able to maintain 100kph and (b) pretty unreliable
but they look pretty cool

[Ixion]

They do . Nice if you can afford to have one just for occasional rally type outings.

If you are serious about the retro look, every so often a BSA M20 or M21 comes up on Trademe. Probably the best sidecar bike ever made. Still very reliable, and as fast as the Chiang Jian. The Ariel equivalent (can't remember the model number) was good too, but not so easy to get spares for now.

[Voltaire]

When I got my CJ vinned they initialy said no....but as I had docs saying it was 20 years old it was ok.
had to refit the headlight to a H4.
The front brake is crap and they top out at a very noisy 80kmph....go for invading ....not so good for touring.

[The Pastor]

When I got my CJ vinned they initialy said no....but as I had docs saying it was 20 years old it was ok.
had to refit the headlight to a H4.
The front brake is crap and they top out at a very noisy 80kmph....go for invading ....not so good for touring.
do you have the sidevalve engine(24hp) or the 32hp engine?

Could I come see the bike sometime?

[Ixion]

You can get a brand new Renfield 500 and sidecar, for $12k. One on Tardme now.

[pete376403]

They do . Nice if you can afford to have one just for occasional rally type outings.

If you are serious about the retro look, every so often a BSA M20 or M21 comes up on Trademe. Probably the best sidecar bike ever made. Still very reliable, and as fast as the Chiang Jian. The Ariel equivalent (can't remember the model number) was good too, but not so easy to get spares for now.

P&M Panther = even better. 650 rather than 500 so you get a bit more power. there is a good sidecar thread on ADVrider. http://www.advrider.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=56

[Ixion]

Uh, y'ever ownd a Panther. They were a very good sidecar tug, true, specifically designed for it. But keeping the engines running was a labour of love.

[Motu]

I've never seen an M21 in NZ,most of what we got were M20's.Well,I had an M21 engine,but it was a very early version and had a short stroke,and an 85mm bore same as a B33.The M20 has 13hp...that's a serious lack of HP,if you beleive that power means horsepower.Fortunatly the M20 had torque instead,and that allowed it to pull a sidecar as heavy as itself.

Doctor Big - I reckon it's got the goolies.

[Ixion]

Good thought. The r=frames on chookchasers are usually stronger and more rigid than street bikes (cos they are vicious bastards them chooks).

Only issue might be brakes. Yeah, I know we never had any back in the day, but back then nobody expected to have them.

Nowadays, people are spoilt and expect to be able to stop. Chookcahsers tend not to have very powerful brakes, cos the chookchasing fraternity never know when to stop anyway - and you can always run into a tree if you do want to (Hey it works for my Pajero - backwards even) . And the (considerable) extra weight of the chair (and passenger) means that the not terribly impressive brakes of the DR might be not terribly impressive.

[babyB]

just a thought :rofl::rofl::rofl:
:chase:

[Voltaire]

do you have the sidevalve engine(24hp) or the 32hp engine?

Could I come see the bike sometime?

SOLD IT, I have done lots of miles on a BMW/Watsonian outfit, but the CJ750 is just too underpowered,poorly built, and using 30's technology.
The novelty of taking the kids for rides and not being able to use it safely on the open road meant I only had it for a few months.

If I could only have one bike ( ACC may help with this decision) it would not be a motorcycle combination, too limiting.....unless you are doing a two month trip up as far as the top of Norway and need to carry lots of food , camping gear and beer....then they are perfect.

[martybabe]

Why muck about? Buy a Dnieper or a Ural (if they aren't one and the same) they come with a chair in place...

Totally agree, these things are purpose built, cheap and strong. None of the frame strength worries mentioned above, the only down side is weird handling, which any side-car will have, and a not to powerful engine.

Have a look at this stuff, these things are made from rusty girders and look like a lot of fun (for a while).


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[The Pastor]

part of me wants a really reliable bike that i can own for 20 years+

the poser in me wants the cj750 in ww2 spec. Damn it looks good.

http://www.cj750.net/cjprices.htm

These guys sell them internationally and have a 32hp engine (not the 24hp sidevalve) and have a performance "kit" although i just cant understand how 2 High Performance Carburetors are $60 usd.

Really wish I could see/ ride one first.

Would it be too much trouble to get them to a reilable 100km/hr cruise?

The woman part of me is saying "hell no you'll die from a frame collapse"

The man in me is saying "how much"

and the biker in me is saying HELL YEAH!

[The Pastor]

<img src='http://www.cj750.net/sitepics/ww2/11ww2delux/superr75green6001660.JPG'>

[crazyhorse]

How bout one like this?

[Flip]

Well I have one of these on order at right now:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2028/2241178580_10ec4d7fa2_o.jpg

This is interesting too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04zwCAwkxNU

Will let you know how it goes.

They seem to cruise at 80ish. I have a 80s series landrover that doesent go much faster then this and a Austin 7 that has never gone as fast as this. I have never read any frame fatigue issues, if there were the PLA would have had them sorted out, that's where these bikes come from ex chineese army. Side cars are 30's tek, The Ford T and Austin 7 both cost less than an a bike and side car in their day. I got one because a Harley WLA costs a big bucket of money.

[Ixion]

With the chair on the other side , I trust?

[Subike]

My Parts XS1000 parts bike once had a side chair, the mounts are welded to the frame. I have a chair available in Amberley for $500 cash, next winters toy.
But I thought these might give you some ideas

[Voltaire]

Here's the one I have ( currently apart).
It would run rings around the CJ750 in every way, I know I have owned both.
The CJ is heavy, poorly built ( compared to a BMW) and the brakes are crap.
The sidevalve engine will not cruise at 80kmph comfortabably, the later OHV Ural copy one might.
My R75/5 used to cruise happily at 100kmph due to the lightweight chair.
Took it all over Europe and the chair was on the left...
I remember once on the Autobahn just after the wall came down, dragged of a Trabbant...:rolleyes:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=2196&pictureid=35579

[Dodgyiti]

Peter Smith did a full review of the OHV Ural outfit in Two Wheels magazine last year. He claimed to would not cruise much above 80km/h and the brakes were a bit shit still.

Brakes not too much of a problem to upgrade, probably better drum machining and some high quality linings on the shoes will be enough.
Not sure what you can do to hot up the engine without losing torque, but if you made the whole machine lighter you could gear it up a bit:niceone:
Or just bide your time and buy a complete outfit second hand and customise it to what you want. There is not a great demand for outfits, I have seen many languish on Trademe for months which means 'open to offers':msn-wink:

[The Pastor]

Peter Smith did a full review of the OHV Ural outfit in Two Wheels magazine last year. He claimed to would not cruise much above 80km/h and the brakes were a bit shit still.

Brakes not too much of a problem to upgrade, probably better drum machining and some high quality linings on the shoes will be enough.
Not sure what you can do to hot up the engine without losing torque, but if you made the whole machine lighter you could gear it up a bit:niceone:
Or just bide your time and buy a complete outfit second hand and customise it to what you want. There is not a great demand for outfits, I have seen many languish on Trademe for months which means 'open to offers':msn-wink:
Can you give me the magazine referance? I'll order a back copy.

[Motu]

There was a ride report on ADVrider earlier this year where Mr Cob rode a new Ural around the US,visiting every state...rode at highway speeds and was pretty reliable too.I followed his whole trip,and posted a link on this site - but nobody here is interested in sidecars or Urals so it sank without a trace.

My Ural was VW powered which solved the power problem - but a Ural engine revs higher than a VW,100kph was about it with the VW on it's limit....or beyond.

[Kickaha]

My Ural was VW powered which solved the power problem - but a Ural engine revs higher than a VW,100kph was about it with the VW on it's limit....or beyond.

They're shaft drive? Did you adapt the VW to the Ural box?

Any other diffs fit them? would the BMW diffs bolt on ?

[Flip]

With the chair on the other side , I trust?

Yes. Its going to be a LH side car.

I have some experience building vintage racing cars, I will get a few more MPH from any old motor. It will dissapear off into my workshop and the first thing that will happen is it will get a port job and possibly go up a valve size. I will also look into reprofiling the cam followers to make the valves open and close a little faster. It seems that the motors overheat so I am not going to do anything that makes the motor run hotter e.g. raise the CR.

There is a guy on Kiwi biker who has one his name is CJ750.

These bikes are pre ww2 tec, when you step down in technology you travel slower. I have traveled all around NZ in a Austin 7 so believe me when I say traveling a bit slower on the road is no problem, I just keep of the fast single lane highways. As a biker I don,t have to tell you all the the journey is more important then the destination. A friend has a army indian solo he says it only goes 55mph.

I also ride a Harley so I am used to going relatively slowish.

[The Pastor]

Yes. Its going to be a LH side car.

I have some experience building vintage racing cars, I will get a few more MPH from any old motor. It will dissapear off into my workshop and the first thing that will happen is it will get a port job and possibly go up a valve size. I will also look into reprofiling the cam followers to make the valves open and close a little faster. It seems that the motors overheat so I am not going to do anything that makes the motor run hotter e.g. raise the CR.

There is a guy on Kiwi biker who has one his name is CJ750.

These bikes are pre ww2 tec, when you step down in technology you travel slower. I have traveled all around NZ in a Austin 7 so believe me when I say traveling a bit slower on the road is no problem, I just keep of the fast single lane highways. As a biker I don,t have to tell you all the the journey is more important then the destination. A friend has a army indian solo he says it only goes 55mph.

I also ride a Harley so I am used to going relatively slowish.
I'd be very intersted to see your progress and results for working on a CJ. Make sure you post on kb.

[RDjase]

My cousin had a twin shock XR250 with a chair on it in the mid 80s, was setup for carrying his RM250, a fuel can and a Swap a Crate !
I see if i can find some pics of it an post them,

[The Pastor]

My cousin had a twin shock XR250 with a chair on it in the mid 80s, was setup for carrying his RM250, a fuel can and a Swap a Crate !
I see if i can find some pics of it an post them,
that'd be briliant.

[RDjase]

that'd be briliant.

It was fun to thrash down the river , bit scary from memory tho lol

[rustic101]

What are your thoughts?

I was thinking a r100 would be ideal.

Solid on the ride we had today...

[The Pastor]

Solid on the ride we had today...
what bike is that?

[rustic101]

What are your thoughts?

I was thinking a r100 would be ideal.

It is a Honda Valkyrie

[Eurodave]

That chair was a Dusting replica that I modified to a two seater & refitted to that Velcrofly,also
heres a pic of my "Euroglass DUO" that I custom made from scratch,ie drew the plans, made the wooden plug,made the figlass molds, made the chassis & then made/painted upholstered the figlass body ... [huge complex job took me 6 months!!], for the same guys later on

[pete376403]

Mike Dobson (Motorad Wgton) has a few Urals, including one that (IIRC) has been repowered with a BMW R90.

[The Pastor]

Thats some nice work there mate, well done.

On a side note dose anyone know if the cj750 can have the side car removed and put on to suit?

[The Pastor]

http://www.imz-ural.com/sahara

I think i've just made up my mind weather to go chinese or not!

[The Pastor]

well i emailed the dealer today, a gear up, they dont make the sahara anymore, is about 70% of my income.

I wonder if i can save that over an entire year?

[Flip]

Thats some nice work there mate, well done.

On a side note dose anyone know if the cj750 can have the side car removed and put on to suit?


Yep they just unbolt. The battery has to stay in the bike. Two final reduction drives are available one high ratio for sidecar use and the other solo use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWbAh1xE7k
See what is sitting on axle stands in the background.

[The Pastor]

Yep they just unbolt. The battery has to stay in the bike. Two final reduction drives are available one high ratio for sidecar use and the other solo use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWbAh1xE7k
See what is sitting on axle stands in the background.
are they 2wd with the sidecar on?

[hayd3n]

another i saw at the burt

[Brian d marge]

another i saw at the burt

that be a biker that would be

ACC will have a field day on his wee ARSE

Bloody good Idea though !

Stephen

[Flip]

No just a basic side car. 1WD

[The Pastor]

No just a basic side car. 1WD
as i thought, the ural's look like a far far better bike, well over twice the price tho.

time will tell how much $$ i can spend on it lol

[The Pastor]

Just got off the phone with motorad - damn hes a good sales man and he dosent even sell the things!

[Ixion]

another i saw at the burt

now that's a biker's biker. Deserves a Speights he does.

Is that a Squariel towing the Rudge?

[hayd3n]

now that's a biker's biker. Deserves a Speights he does.

Is that a Squariel towing the Rudge?

* Make: ARIEL
* Model: VB
* Year: 1937
* Submodel: 600 SIDECAR
* Main colour: Black
* Vehicle type: Motorcycle
* Body style: Motorcycle
* CC rating: 600
* Fuel type: Petrol
* Assembly type: Imported Built-Up
* Country of origin: United Kingdom
* No of axles: 3

[Ixion]

Ah. Almost right. Couldn;t see much, and guessed a Squariel. The VB was very popular for combo work, must be a bit, um, ah, velocity-challenged with a chair AND a trailer?

[Flip]

Just found one of these.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Classic-vintage/auction-266501673.htm

[wingnutt]

the goldwing handles a side car pretty good I have a lady friend who runs a 84 1200cc combo, goes really well, no handling problems.

they are shaft drive, no need for change, but to get the best some change is needed to the front end, Not up with the as to why the front end
needs changing, hers has been changed, and it steers like its on power steering.

cheers,

Bob