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dpex
28th November 2009, 19:52
Some of you spend a lot of time bitching about what is being done to turn the tide of ACC increases, but I have yet to see much from the bitchers other than bitching about what's right and wrong.

Me? I prefer proactive.

Just tonight, after reading some of the whimpy responses to the mall protests I had another thought.

So I put it on paper (electronic) and sent it off.

What have YOU done tonight, to further the cause? Fuck all, I expect.

Anyway. Below is yet another submission to a NGG (Non Gov Group), the Employers and Manufacturers Association. EMA.

To Mr Alisdair Thompson.
CEO
EMA

Dear Sir,

As I am sure you will agree, Employer/Employee ACC levies are iniquitous.

My perceptions of these iniquitous nature of ACC levies are as follows.

1. They are in complete contradiction with the original aims of ACC because the current method of levy has an inherent notion of fault due to the variations in levy as determined by industry-type. Yet this method of determination fails to recognise the risk presented by each worker when he she is not at work.

For example, a forestry worker pays a huge levy compared to a dunny cleaner.
Yet, outside work-hours the dunny-cleaner may be involved in an extreme sport, and thus become a significant risk, while the forestry worker may lead a dull and boring private life and thus presents no specific non-work related risk.

2. Beneficiaries of all types, including superannuitants, pay no ACC source levy at all thus they are free-loading off the rest.


3. Unemployed children and students pay no ACC yet they are significant
recipients of ACC largesse (as they should be).


4. Tourists pay no ACC yet are beneficiaries of the ACC system.

5. Only registered road-users pay two extra, targeted levies. On via registration, the other via a fuel levy.

6. Seventy eight percent of all ACC claims were non-work-related.

7. Employers are the only group required to spend their own money to account for ACC levies.

The point being made in the above is that ACC liability is not being evenly shared by the inevitable recipients.

Evenly can be read in two distinct contexts. Firstly, variable employee levies are based upon assessed risk, not income levels, therefore the risk-determined levies are uneven because low-income earners are frequently employed in high-risk jobs.

Secondly, employee levies are work-based and ignore and employee’s extra-curricular activities….The forestry-worker/dunny-cleaner aparadigm.

Now allow me to bring your attention to extra ‘targeted’ levies. In fact there is but one and it is upon only all registered road-users, via registration and fuel tax. Yet pedestrians and cyclists are exempt from this extra tax. Yet cyclists are the third highest claimants of ACC (as road users).

Off-road vehicle users; who represent a significant claim proportion, go about their extra-curricular fun bereft of age-limits, warrants of fitness, registration, demanded safety equipment, licence, and just for drill, given they mostly use private land, can career here and there pissed as fiddler’s bitches, without attracting sanction.

It is noteworthy that ‘all’ Registered Road Users, who also pay ACC from source income, were recipients of less than 10% of the total ACC claims made in the last financial year. In other words ninety percent of all claims were made by accident victims ‘not’ engaged in road use.

And so businessmen are paying employee levies, direct vehicle registration levies, and fuel levies to ACC, yet their employees are costing ACC around 22% of the total ACC cost.

Beyond that is the issue of multiple vehicle ownership by employees.

Given that every direct cost against an employee’s income is a source of force directed at employers to increase that income, the cost to an employee to register multiple vehicles is currently onerous. Yet the National Government seek to increase this pain.

How does an employee make this pain go away? Simple. He demands a wage increase.

Then we have the multiple vehicle owning employee who owns a car, a motorbike, and a campervan. He can use only one at any one time, thus his risk is contained in the one, yet he pays three lots of ACC levy.

This extra ‘targeted’ levy is demonstrably unfair, unreasonable, and undemocratic and one which is inflicted upon registered road-users for but one simple and very cynical reason; which is, they can because only registered road users are so easily identifiable.

And for employers, this ‘specifically’ targeted tax represents a huge cost against business


The solution.

As noted above, some pay no ACC levy at all, while others pay through the nose. And, adding insult to injury, registered road-users and employers are further penalised.

I respectfully recommend the following as a fitting solution, and ask your opinion on this solution.

1. That GST be raised by 2.5%. Such tax to be levied for a specific targeted use.
2. That the sum of that increase be used to pay all current and future ACC costs, and also a significant sum be used to pay for specific, physical and theoretical driver education programmes.
3. That all ACC levies from source income, and road-user charges (both via registration and fuel levy) be removed.


In this way the burden of ACC costs are spread across all persons who spend any amount regardless of the source of their spending power, and will, sooner or later draw on ACC for surcease.

And, further, all will have more to spend in our economy and, of course ACC administration costs will be significantly diminished.

It is widely recognised that the National Government wishes to privatise ACC. What will such cost employers and employees?

The answer is, the cost will be huge. Many will not be able to afford what will become an insurance scheme. Many small employers will be forced out of business because they cannot afford to pay what will be a vast increase in private insurance levies. All larger employers will be required to add the extra costs to their operating costs and thus both local and exporting employers will suffer from diminished sales from high required income.

But most onerously; when ACC is privatised into an accident ‘insurance’ scheme, the door to litigation will be held wide open.

Next Steps.

It seems clear to me that the National Government must be halted in its track toward privatising ACC.

Furthermore, the ACC levy system must be forced to change to what is essentially a poll-tax system (increased GST).

In that way, all pay a contribution according to their net dispersible income and, further, with the removal of employee levies, employers can pay more (they simply shift the current levies into employee income. Employers no longer pay fuel-levies.

Employees no longer pay the targeted levies when they register a vehicle, or use one.

That provides the engine room of economics with more fuel; ergo, the entire work-force will have more to spend, while those who contribute nothing will have a little less.

Action.

If the foregoing falls upon a willing eye then the next steps require the EMA to bring it’s massive strength to bear as a lobby to parliament to achieve two ends. The first being the introduction of a general GST levy to cover ACC, while the second is to stop the National Government from privatising ACC.

I take this opportunity to thank you for your attention in this instance and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully
David Peppiatt

So what have you done, tonight; to further the cause?

AD345
28th November 2009, 20:01
*snip*

So what have you done, tonight; to further the cause?

Well I have continued my public discussion the with General Manager of ACC via the good offices of the Dominion Post.

Yours is a good letter and it will be interesting to see what, if any, reply you get.

It is worthy of note that the Business Roundtable (a different organisation I know - but chummy with the EMA) has been pushing for the revocation of the ACC act since 1987

Just so ya know.

NighthawkNZ
28th November 2009, 20:16
So what have you done, tonight; to further the cause?

The GST levy solution I put in my submissions and seperate emails... and have a some interesting responses from a few MP's... from hmmm didn't think of that idea, could work and interesting concept to "god help us all..." (Roger Douglas)

I believe it would be one of the fairest solutions it covers every one including those on ACC are still making a contribution, tourists, sports, eldery heck even my retired aunty & uncle thought that it is a fair way of doing it, they would still be contributing, you will still be paying via fuel, wof and rego as well as oil and all your maintenace, tyres so you will be more than paying your way but it is spread across every thing and not in one lump sum... every year

Business still only claim back 12.5% which is the official GST, the method of collection is already in place, and the IRD goons and treasury do the rest. ACC would be fully funded in one or two years and it would be very hard to privitise.

bezajel
28th November 2009, 21:40
I'm not sure about the GST thing for the simple reason that businesses will not be contributing, and I firmly believe that institutions/industry/corporations/companies/whatever should contribute. Otherwise they would have no incentive at all to further safe work practices etc.

What Nighthawk said though could work (or what I think he said) - GST being portioned into proper GST and ACC, with businesses only being exempt from the GST part of it.

Brian d marge
28th November 2009, 21:56
hheehehehee

Now I know ACC is a serious issue

but some ( lone ) voices out there in the wilderness have been bleating on about doing Stuff since Adam was a lad

SOE ,Student loans ,,, speeding Tax ( sorry there are no Quotas )

I hope from the bottom of my heart that Kiwis will finally realize you just cant roll over

For that reason and that reason alone , I have the utmost respect for the Maori

Party ( NOT)

The ideals set down by the older generation were good solid people focused Ideas ..ACC being one of them

Idealism spewing from the Chicago school ,,, is the biggest blight on humanity this world has seen I know why we did ,,,but really ..even a child could see it is . will end in tears

4 million people , a country to die for and its ,,,,,,, fked

Hopefully the younger generation will right the rights ,,,

( in the next twenty years would be ok with me ,,,,,!)


Stephen

Jantar
28th November 2009, 21:56
I'm not sure about the GST thing for the simple reason that businesses will not be contributing, ....
Not quite correct. More GST is paid by businesses than by private individuals.

MadDuck
28th November 2009, 22:04
If anything the ACC got it totally wrong when privitising ACC for big corporates.

Where I work we have gone for private insurance....not sure on the numbers but the biggest employer in NZ does not contribute to ACC. Hell we only kill one or two people a year at work. Seems a better option to self insure.

Thats a ton of money not going to ACC through employer levies.

Oh and Dpex...maybe some of us just needed a weekend off from the campaign. But there is plenty going on around the country.

James Deuce
28th November 2009, 22:12
No wonder the Government and a big chunk of the voting populace think motorcyclists are grumpy, ungrateful bastards with a tenuous grip on reality.

Pixie
29th November 2009, 07:11
I'm not sure about the GST thing for the simple reason that businesses will not be contributing, and I firmly believe that institutions/industry/corporations/companies/whatever should contribute. Otherwise they would have no incentive at all to further safe work practices etc.

What Nighthawk said though could work (or what I think he said) - GST being portioned into proper GST and ACC, with businesses only being exempt from the GST part of it.

There is no incentive at the moment.
Drain layer A buys expensive digging equipment so he does not have to risk being buried in a ditch.
Drain layer B digs his ditches with a spoon and his labourers die with monotonous regularity.
They both pay the same Drain layer levy and there is no no claims bonus.
Where's the advantage for A's extra expense?

paddy
29th November 2009, 08:53
There is no incentive at the moment.
Drain layer A buys expensive digging equipment so he does not have to risk being buried in a ditch.
Drain layer B digs his ditches with a spoon and his labourers die with monotonous regularity.
They both pay the same Drain layer levy and there is no no claims bonus.
Where's the advantage for A's extra expense?

Drain layer B should be prosecuted under the HSE Act. Our system is a disincentive system rather than an incentive system.

MSTRS
29th November 2009, 10:22
Moved me to get off my arse (again) and send this...

Don't penalise us for the stupid actions of a few.
Don't penalise us for poor road conditions.
Don't penalise us for road safety structures that are not safe for us.
Don't penalise us for the stupidity of other motorists.
Don't penalise us for being vulnerable.
Don't penalise us with a levy rise beyond that applied to cars, because lives will not be saved, and injuries will not be lessened by high/er ACC levies, except if less of us continue riding.

One likely alternative is, with the countless couples who ride, each on their own bike (2 levies paid), many will simply put her bike's rego on hold and she will pillion with him. This means 1 levy will be paid, but 2 people will be injured in any accident they may have. In such a case, ACC's projected take will be down and their expenditure will go up.

We are not 'motorcyclists' alone. We are just ordinary Kiwis from all walks of life, who happen to have a passion in this one thing. The vast majority of us are sensible and go to great lengths to protect ourselves. Most of us spend considerable amounts of money on specialised safety eqpuiment to mitigate injury already. Many of us volunteer to operate rider training courses, which are well-patronised by those wanting to improve their skill level and therefore, their safety on our roads.

Parking protests are proving very worthwhile in demonstrating to the general motoring public just how many extra cars could end up on our already overloaded road/park system.

We represent a valuable contribution in overall traffic infrastructure. We should be encouraged to continue, and helped to stay that way.

I appeal to you to look at the people, instead of the numbers (which to date have been thoroughly discredited, anyway).

dpex
29th November 2009, 17:39
I'm not sure about the GST thing for the simple reason that businesses will not be contributing, and I firmly believe that institutions/industry/corporations/companies/whatever should contribute. Otherwise they would have no incentive at all to further safe work practices etc.

What Nighthawk said though could work (or what I think he said) - GST being portioned into proper GST and ACC, with businesses only being exempt from the GST part of it.

Mother of God! Yet another product of a failing education system.

First: Businesses don't have accidents. People...and those resembling people and who have access to this site...have accidents.

Second. I gather you have never become acquainted with OSH and the incredibly punitive measures they inflict on any business in which an employee fails to wear a hard-hat, a safety harness, and places strategic signs....and this just to go to the dunny.

Jesus! Go get an education before spouting off your down-with-the-rich dross.

dpex
29th November 2009, 17:46
There is no incentive at the moment.
Drain layer A buys expensive digging equipment so he does not have to risk being buried in a ditch.
Drain layer B digs his ditches with a spoon and his labourers die with monotonous regularity.
They both pay the same Drain layer levy and there is no no claims bonus.
Where's the advantage for A's extra expense?

The answer is elegantly simple. ACC is NOT an insurance scheme, thus a no-claims bonus cannot be offered.

But. Give Key and Douglas enough rope and it soon will be an insurance scheme, run by insurance companies who will then tell you....at least those of you who can afford the cover....that you losing control of your bike then flying off the road, only to drown in the custard contained in the Reparoa attempt at the Guinness Book Of Records, Largest Ever Custard Pie....was an act of God.

But that's cool. At least you will be then free to sue God.

Mom
29th November 2009, 17:50
Drain layer B should be prosecuted under the HSE Act. Our system is a disincentive system rather than an incentive system.


Interesting you should mention drainlayers. I have just got off the phone ( well ok an hour or so ago) from a drain laying plumber that has a few years on me. I have known this man for maybe 30 years now, and he grasps what is going on. He is a non biker too btw, but he is not concerned so much about our plight as what the BIG picture is. He supports us in out protest, because it affects him too!

RavenR44
29th November 2009, 18:04
Not quite correct. More GST is paid by businesses than by private individuals.

If you could explain that, I'd be forever grateful.

As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

That's you and me. And pretty much any employed (or unemployed) person who doesn't own a business, or is not self-employed.

So can you provide a link to show how businesses pay "more GST"?

TIA.

Jantar
29th November 2009, 18:23
If you could explain that, I'd be forever grateful.

As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

That's you and me. And pretty much any employed (or unemployed) person who doesn't own a business, or is not self-employed.

So can you provide a link to show how businesses pay "more GST"?

TIA.

In effect, you are right. But GST is paid all along the chain, just as the total cost of running any business is also passed on to the end consumer. There are many costs to running a business other simply buying and selling products. Services, labour etc are all charged to the end consumer, but may be paid and collected many times between the raw product and the end consumer. In most cases (except retail) the business is the end consumer and hence pays the GST. This is just a cost of running the business and of course those costs are eventually passed on to the end consumer. If this didn't happen the business would soon go broke.

NighthawkNZ
29th November 2009, 18:31
As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

They would only be able to claim the gst back not the levy back and the levy is on everything anyway.

At the end of the day there is not enough money to pay all debts... if all the debt was paid there would be no money left in circulation and people still in debt, thats they way the moneitory sysem works... its flawed. You need to watch moviedoco's "Zeitgeist Addendum (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1332128/)" interesting... very very interesting... the money in your pocket is not real... :eek: which is what is happening with ACC and National government... torrent download (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/ZDAY%202009-%20ZEITGEIST%20ADDENDUM%20DVD-PAL.torrent) (oh it is a free download)

The only people that are getting wealthy are the bankers... The monitory system is flawed and basically slavery...:crazy:

how can 1% of the people own 40% of the wealth of this 3rd rock from the sun...

dpex
29th November 2009, 18:42
If you could explain that, I'd be forever grateful.

As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

That's you and me. And pretty much any employed (or unemployed) person who doesn't own a business, or is not self-employed.

So can you provide a link to show how businesses pay "more GST"?

TIA.

See what I mean about the failing education system?

Businesses pay GST on the difference between their purchase costs and their sales incomes.

You will (hopefully) appreciate that every business has to 'sell' its goods/services for more than their entire cost of doing business. The result is called profit.

Thus a business which pays for all of it's stock, running expenses, et al, for say $100, yet makes sales of its goods/services for say $120, will pay GST on the difference. $20. (ergo $2.22)

The exceptions to the rule are financial institutions...AKA banks. They claim GST for all expenses yet pay not one jot of GST on their profits.

Thus business GST is calculated on the 'difference between income and expenses...except financial expenses, for example, overdraft costs, which are exempt GST.

The question which has arisen in my mind, from writing the foregoing is, 'Do the miserable bastards (the Gov) charge GST on ACC payments? My bet is that they do.

Hmmm. Now there's a can of worms I'd like to open.

I know they charge GST on rates, and given that rates are a tax, the GST content represents a tax on a tax.

I'll get back to you about this issue. Maybe it's a cause for yet another protest.

Bikers are allowed to protest about non-specific-biker issues, ya know.

Brian d marge
29th November 2009, 20:14
They would only be able to claim the gst back not the levy back and the levy is on everything anyway.

At the end of the day there is not enough money to pay all debts... if all the debt was paid there would be no money left in circulation and people still in debt, thats they way the moneitory sysem works... its flawed. You need to watch moviedoco's "Zeitgeist Addendum (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1332128/)" interesting... very very interesting... the money in your pocket is not real... :eek: which is what is happening with ACC and National government... torrent download (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/ZDAY%202009-%20ZEITGEIST%20ADDENDUM%20DVD-PAL.torrent) (oh it is a free download)

The only people that are getting wealthy are the bankers... The monitory system is flawed and basically slavery...:crazy:

how can 1% of the people own 40% of the wealth of this 3rd rock from the sun...

Can I add to that

I was listening to an interesting debate about growth

Does a country need to...grow? or remain stable ? ,, does a business need to grow ? larger ? or just remain stable?

Got me a thinking

ps that is an interesting download ...even if you dont believe its still a good watch

Stephen

MSTRS
29th November 2009, 20:33
If you could explain that, I'd be forever grateful.

As I understand the GST system, any GST that businesses pay (in the running of that business) may be claimed back in its entirety. So, in effect, all of the GST is paid by the end consumer.

That's you and me. And pretty much any employed (or unemployed) person who doesn't own a business, or is not self-employed.

So can you provide a link to show how businesses pay "more GST"?

TIA.Red herring. It matters not whether a business pays more/less/same GST. Under Jantars proposal there would be 2.5% collected on top of the 12.5% Gst, and that 2.5% would be unrecoverable by that business. Every single transaction that involves Gst would include the added 2.5% ACC levy.




The question which has arisen in my mind, from writing the foregoing is, 'Do the miserable bastards (the Gov) charge GST on ACC payments? My bet is that they do.


You'd win that bet. Just look at the form you are issued when your rego is due. It's spelled out quite clearly. GST is applied to the total of all charges.

avgas
29th November 2009, 20:46
I'm currently looking at the Corporate Governance and Financial's of ACC.
See if it ready for the real world wake-up outside the Govt womb.
May just shatter Key's precious little plan.

MSTRS
30th November 2009, 07:35
I'm currently looking at the Corporate Governance and Financial's of ACC.
See if it ready for the real world wake-up outside the Govt womb.
May just shatter Key's precious little plan.

You'd do well to keep Ixion informed of your progress in that regard. :2thumbsup

newbould
30th November 2009, 08:33
They would only be able to claim the gst back not the levy back and the levy is on everything anyway.


Business must be alowed ot claim back both the GST and the ACC component of their expenses. Otherwise the GST / ACC levy component of a product gets more and more.
Say we buy something for $10, work on it and sell it for $15. Next person works on it and sells it for $30. Plus levy on the final price - 2% did you say = 60c. Levy collected by Gvt. This requires each processor to be able to reclaim the acc levy on the purchase they made. Otherwise the gvt collects 20 c (on the first $10 purchase) plus 30c (on the next transaction) plus 60 c = 1.10. the acc portion of the amount finally paid by the consumer goes from 60 c to $1.10 - bacause the businesses will have to add on the acc levy part of their expenses each time they sell the product. Now the final cost of the product to the consumer is 31.10 instead of 30.60 and the acc proportion is now 3.5% instead of 2%.
Do that all with 12.5% gst and you will see that if business was not allowed to reclaim genuine business gst expenses the proportion of gst paid by the consumer would be huge.

NighthawkNZ
30th November 2009, 08:38
Otherwise the GST / ACC levy component of a product gets more and more.

It does that anyway..

however it is no different now... you are paying the business ACC levy now with every thing you buy to cover that levy... they can't claim that levy back

GST will still be at 12.5% as it is now... the levy is just added to as the collection model.


The problem being our monitory system is inherinty flawed right from the start and it is just a huge pyramid scheme and those at the top are the only ones that benefit from it

MSTRS
30th November 2009, 08:55
Business must be alowed ot claim back both the GST and the ACC component of their expenses. Otherwise the GST / ACC levy component of a product gets more and more.
Say we buy something for $10, work on it and sell it for $15. Next person works on it and sells it for $30. Plus levy on the final price - 2% did you say = 60c. Levy collected by Gvt. This requires each processor to be able to reclaim the acc levy on the purchase they made. Otherwise the gvt collects 20 c (on the first $10 purchase) plus 30c (on the next transaction) plus 60 c = 1.10. the acc portion of the amount finally paid by the consumer goes from 60 c to $1.10 - bacause the businesses will have to add on the acc levy part of their expenses each time they sell the product. Now the final cost of the product to the consumer is 31.10 instead of 30.60 and the acc proportion is now 3.5% instead of 2%.
Do that all with 12.5% gst and you will see that if business was not allowed to reclaim genuine business gst expenses the proportion of gst paid by the consumer would be huge.
I see what you are getting at.
The 2.5% is just a suggested figure. If it's too high, bearing in mind the compound nature of each selling stage, then it would be appropriately reduced, across the board. The end result, however, is that each step of the process from manufacture/import to the customer pays a given % in ACC levies. The customer pays the most in dollar terms, but that is how things are now anyway.

TOTO
30th November 2009, 10:13
Yea, apart from going to 4 auckland protests, going to the Bikeoi, distributing leafletts, contributing to BRONZ funds, e-mailing all the MPs from national and Labour party, leaving telephone messages to about 20 national MPs, plus 3x to dr. Nick and 5x times to Johney Key, wearing protest high Vizibility vests and arm bands - fuck all mr dpex.

People are alot more motivated than you think, and on average spend less time bithcing on the internet than you do !

candor
30th November 2009, 12:35
An inquisition would be good right now. KBers as the ACC experts in charge.