Ulysses please explain why you're selling us out

[idleidolidyll]

Thankyou Ulysseus for confirming that the following is nothing less than more Nick Smith lies and that Ulysseus is not working with the liar in charge to push through levy increases: you have my apology and support

Tonight Nick Smith told the crowd at the Akarana Royal Yacht Club that Ulysseus had agreed to accept levy increases in exchange for a portion of that money being set aside for accident prevention.

While that may seem worthy at first glance, shouldn't we ALREADY have said accident prevention programmes without having to pay extra levies?

National sells itself as fiscally responsible and is actively cutting social service costs (often by cutting services) to reduce government spending.

However, in the levy issue, instead of cutting costs by cleaning roads and educating riders and motorists; they are massively overcharging bikers for accidents which are to a great extent; not their fault.

Ulysseus; you don't represent me and you don't represent most motorcyclists; please don't sell us short. The only acceptable result is no increase at all.

In fact, going further, the MOST acceptable result is for motorists not to be singled out when rugby players, horse riders, cyclists and other risky groups are not charged at all.

[hayd3n]

somthings not right y would uselesess do that to us?

[Mully]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Tonight Nick Smith told the crowd at the Akarana Royal Yacht Club that Ulysseus had agreed to accept levy increases in exchange for a portion of that money being set aside for accident prevention.

I'd like to know if this is even true. It's not like politicians are bastions of truth and honesty. I suspect Smithy has twisted something that has been said to him. (i.e. "We accept the need for a possible minor increase" and "we want money for accident prevention training" as two stand-alone statements)

(Do you use the "Dark Universe" view? That orange is a bit of a prick to read in the "Light Universe")

[idleidolidyll]

Maybe Smith is lying; he was caught in about 3 lies on the night

Ulysseus please explain..................are you negotiating as above?

[AD345]

Fragmentation is always a threat in a community as diverse as motorcyclists.

Ulysses can fairly claim to represent its membership but that's as far as it goes IMO. They do, however, have a reasonably large public profile and, to their credit, they have been very proactive in leading protests against the ACC changes.

It would be nice if the different representative groups (BRONZ, Ulysses, HOG et.al.) got together to thrash out a common message and goal.

Mind you - just cos Nick says something doesn't make it so...

[Grahameeboy]

And how do they think that money will help prevent accidents....money cannot buy attitude.

Yesterday coming back from a ride a woman driving a 4WD comes onto the motorway, goes into the left lane, then the middle lane...I was about to pass in the fast lane when she indicates and starts to move across..I sounded my noisy horn..she looks in her mirror...carrys on moving into my path..money will not solve that.

If you cannot see a red bike with twin headlights, LED running lights with a 6ft guy wearing red leathers...even spec save will not offer a solution.

On the other side of the coin, if it is generally accepted that 60% of accidents are caused by car drivers...to be honest if 40% of accidents are caused by bikers this is nothing to write home about given that we are a minority...

[Blackbird]

Who is "us"? The problem is that motorcyclists are as diverse as the rest of the population in their views. I wouldn't actually object to paying more if it was equitable i.e if the groups you mentioned paid their share too.

However, there is something I object to even more. However much money we pay, it's simply "cost plus" inasmuch that it's not addressing the root cause of accidents so the position will never improve unless there are initiatives to reduce accidents by raising driving standards. Just paying out as ACC suggest is simply a gross waste of taxpayer money and there's no way I would support that on its own.

I didn't know about the Ulysses suggestion but it sounds that they're trying to address the route cause.

You say that Ulysses don't represent you. Possibly not, but your views as stated don't represent me either. No offence intended.

[P38]

As a Ulysses member I suspect it is not true and I certainly would not support this view.

However you can check out yourself what the offical Ulysses stance is by contacting Peter McIntosh at "president{at}ulysses.org.nz*"

or via our website http://www.ulysses.org.nz/national.html

You can also read Howard Mansels (National Ulysses Secretary) report here.
Howard attended the meeting with Nick Smith at Parliament on the day of the Bikeoi.
http://www.ulysses.org.nz/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=792

[idleidolidyll]

I take no offence blackbird; i don't offer my opinions as anything but my own.

I am not negotiating with Govt but sadly a few groups ARE negotiating on all our behalfs (as far as Govt is concerned) with no agreement across the general biker community on what we would accept.

As noted; Smith may be distorting or perhaps lying outright as he has done tonight and in the past.

I'd like Ulysseus to explain what they are negotiating because Govt seems to think they ARE representative and they WILL use whatever they agree on with Ulysseus to justify the inevitable increases.

Of course it is equally fair for Ulysseus to state clearly to Govt that they are negotiating ONLY on behalf of their organisation which represents a minority of bikers.

[retro asian]

I thought he said Ulysees were happy to work with them on a portion of the ACC levy going to funding for accident prevention.
That does not imply they are negotiating with anyone.

He then thought tha BRONZ had given them the finger, to which Les replied "No we have not, you've lied..."


idleidolidyll I'm sure you misheard, and it might be a good idea to delete this thread mate....

[NighthawkNZ]

As a Ulysses member I suspect it is not true and I certainly would not support this view.

However you can check out yourself what the offical Ulysses stance is by contacting Peter McIntosh at "president{at}ulysses.org.nz*"

or via our website http://www.ulysses.org.nz/national.html

You can also read Howard Mansels (National Ulysses Secretary) report here.
Howard attended the meeting with Nick Smith at Parliament on the day of the Bikeoi.
http://www.ulysses.org.nz/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=792

from the website


Statement of Position from the National Committee 8th November 2009

The Ulysses Club is against the current changes to ACC put forward by the government. They will adversely impact on many New Zealanders by increasing levies and/or reducing services. In particular, we are very concerned at the punitive approach being taken with regard to the heavy increases in ACC levies being proposed on motorcycle registration. This has been done without consultation with the motorcycling fraternity and totally disregards the efforts made by this club and others to improve safety on the road for all riders. We believe that it is time for a comprehensive review of ACC and the way in which it is now operating. The government should establish a robust and transparent public investigation to conduct this review and to include the accuracy of ACC’s stated statistics on its present costings, the methodology of acquiring the statistics, and the analysis of them in the review. We offer the opportunity to ACC and the government to engage in comprehensive dialogue on all matters relating to motorcycles and to work towards a fair and equitable resolution for all concerned. The Ulysses Club would also support a return to injury prevention and other programmes focussed on reducing the risks to motorcyclists.

[idleidolidyll]

I thought he said Ulysees were happy to work with them on a portion of the ACC levy going to funding for accident prevention.
That does not imply they are negotiating with anyone.

He then thought tha BRONZ had given them the finger, to which Les replied "No we have not, you've lied..."


idleidolidyll I'm sure you misheard, and it might be a good idea to delete this thread mate....

Actually he was very specific:

he said Ulysseus had agreed to negotiate the "ringfencing" of some of the levy increase for use in safety initiatives.

[P38]

from the website

Yep thats what I heard at our last meeting too.

[KoroJ]

And how do they think that money will help prevent accidents....money cannot buy attitude....

Can't buy or change attitude of dickhead cage drivers like the tart you mentioned, but would you have seen it coming and known how to react had you not been an experienced rider?

Any money spent on rider development has to be a positive step toward reducing biker accidents by improving the level of rider competence.

[jafar]

Nick is playing the game of divide & conquer, he gets us all fighting amongst ourselves & then does whatever he likes.
It would pay to get confirmation from the heirachy of Ulysses BEFORE this gets out of hand !:Oops:

Wouldn't be a bad idea to get the groups together so we can show a united front.... Mabey Ulysses & Bronz can organize this ?

[Conquiztador]

Actually he was very specific:

he said Ulysseus had agreed to negotiate the "ringfencing" of some of the levy increase for use in safety initiatives.

This is concerning. If this is not right, then I would recommend Ulysseus to clear this out by whatever means possible ASAP, because if it is a blatant lie from Smitty, then he clearly has the intention of causing cracks in the biker ranks.

But if this is true, then I would be very disappointed as I do not speak for Ulysseus and they do not speak for me or for the rest of the NZ bikers.

[Grahameeboy]

Can't buy or change attitude of dickhead cage drivers like the tart you mentioned, but would you have seen it coming and known how to react had you not been an experienced rider?

Any money spent on rider development has to be a positive step toward reducing biker accidents by improving the level of rider competence.

That's the point..it's experience and learning to ride in the UK that helps me....the other day I had these guy on a GXSR..oldish guy...he was so close and to my left he was just about visible in my mirror....he wwould be regarded as experienced.

The way I see it if you have a bad attitude no amount of training will work and to be honest I am not sure that NZ is upto it.

In the UK the Police ran training sessions...they would take us out..within reasons...no speed limits...comment on our riding..class stuff etc...standard training..even the Part 1 and Part 2 tests in the UK don't give you the right experience so that is when bad attitude comes in....

Not saying that no traing will not help but attitude is a whole picture thing

[ManDownUnder]

Smith can negotiate with Ulysses all he wants. Nothing against them - they're a great bunch of people but they can speak for other motorcycling groups just as much as the others can speak for them. I respect their right to speak for themselves - but did Nick Smith just appoint them spokespeople for us all?

In which case I want to be ACC spokesperson

[PhantasmNZ]

wasn't there so can't comment on the quote personally - but it sounds like nicky is answering a different question to the one he was asked (SOP for politicians) - and using carefully crafted spin in order to divide an conquer.

I assume Ulysses don't suddenly support the levy increases, and that their point is that some of the levy money should go to education (which is a sentiment shared I believe by Bronz). What would be useful if the Ulysses admin are reading this, would be an official press release countering these statement (or at least clarifying the intention behind the comments).

It's easy for us all to slip into the mindset we're dealing with morons here... but we need to remember to beware these are all very intelligent people - with sinister agendas and loost of experience in "perception management"

[ManDownUnder]

ote objects 3(e) on page two of http://www.ulysses.org.nz/pdf/rules-ulysses-club.pdf

"e) To communicate, affiliate or enter into other relations,

Clubs, associations, or other bodies having a similar
member of, or cooperate, with any such Clubs, associations,
may be likely to further the purposes of the Club."

I respectfully request that be done if there is any substance to Nick Smith's assertion

[Brian d marge]

Back when this all started wasn't Ulysses saying it was a non political group and want to keep it that way

Then when it realized the enormity of the situation ,,, fronted up

Who said what to whom and when I don't know, I do Know that our very own Scarlet Pimpernel is the one I am backing

Has done a lot and been consistent through and through

Stephen

[Ixion]

Well, I didn't let it out.

But since it is out I may now comment.

I am not a member of Ulysses , or associated with them in any way. I know quite a lot of Ulyssians , and have a great respect for them (even the bearded one who keeps turning up like a bad penny. Especially him, actually)

So, this is my own understanding and 'take' on it.

It is quite certain that Mr Smith believed that he had an understanding with the National President of Ulysses. That understanding was based , very generally, on a context that Ulysses, who Nick thought was the only significant biker association in the country, would not enter more than pro forma objections to the proposed levies .

In particular Ulysses undertook that there would be no protest rides (that was only partly a concession to the Minister, it was also because of genuine concern that a major ride could go badly wrong - a valid concern)

However, once the levies were announced individual Ulyssians and the branches (Auckland especially, I think) were not happy with the position. It was essentially the Ulysses National President's personal position, and one that he found (IMHO) unsustainable

And then KB started the BIKEOI , and BRONZ came in punching , and Nick's hopes of a nice cosy arrangment were shattered. Ulysses official position is now is as stated below.

Mr Smith then discovered that Ulysses did not speak for the country's motorcyclists (and even its own members were joining the protests).

This has made Mr Smith very cross indeed. He is especially cross with BRONZ who he says is "not respectful". I think that he is also very cross with KB, though he seems very confused about the difference between KB and BRONZ (I think he thinks KB is the BRONZ forum) . He considers that Ulysses Wellington is "respectful" (his phrasology) . I think that he is even crosser becuase his cosy arrnagment has blown up in his face .

As to BRONZ giving him the finger, no that is not true (we wouldn't actually be that disrespectful). Mr Smith floated the idea of a separate "safety levy" to us. We replied , in person, and by email , that we would be interested in exploring the idea, and offered to meet with him (in a non protest context) for that purpose . After tonight's meeting I tackled Mr Smith (he made a serious effort to run away , but I positioned myself in such a position that he could not get past. He was very uncomfortable , enough so that the hovering police moved over to stand close by). Mr Smith then admitted that he had indeed received the email. Mr Smith says that he objects to the "conditions" in that offer , though I'm not sure what conditions those were since we made none - though admittedly did not unconditionally agree to support his idea. I've attached a copy of the email for those interested.


I emphasise again that I am not party to internal Ulysses activities , so the above , where it concerns Ulysses is my take on what happened, as an outsider. I can say that Howard Mansell (and I think most if not all the Auckland Ulysses people are as opposed to the levies as we are- though they perhaps have more faith in the powers of submissions and such like than we do.

EDIT Forgot the attachment, included now. Oh, no, I didn't. How silly, you can't uplaod a .txt file. Renamed to .doc , but it's a notepad file

[caseye]

Great work tonight Ixion, Mr sMyth went home with a clearer understanding of what he is up against and I dont believe he got away with anything tonight.He did stay the distance but he didn't win any major points.
We on the other hand did and the news reporters thought so too, claiming that the meeting was attended by several hundred(TV3's own words on their late news) people most of them bikers, who took the minister to task and won many points, that went for the most part unanswered.I hear theres another national party public meeting in Papatoetoe tomorrow night.I'm available if required.

[Conquiztador]

So that explains the lack of comment to this by Ulysses. Were they offered some land and dollars perhaps?

[Ixion]

I do not think it is fair to say that there has been a lack of support from Ulysses, per se. Many members of Ulysses have stood shoulder to shoulder with us - Howard Mansell and many others rode on the BIKEOI, that troublesome bearded gentleman was at the Yacht Club tonight giving Nick what for.

And Ulysses were the first off the mark to organise meetings - they did not want to do rides but that was because of fears that if one went wrong and someone was injured it could all backfire, a reasonable concern.

SO I think Ulyssians have fronted up. Any deals between their President and Nick seem to have been on a personal level.

[Brian d marge]

And Ulysses were the first off the mark to organise meetings - they did not want to do rides but that was because of fears that if one went wrong and someone was injured it could all backfire, a reasonable concern.
.

A very valid concern

but in this case , we need to go French on Master sMyth ,,, and the Bastille was never won over a cup of tea with Lord Chamberlain ( or his equivalent during the reign of terror )

Mass Disobedience and a clogging up of the courts !

Stephen

[Reckless]

Yep I heard it loud and clear from Nick Smiths mouth.
The first thing I thought was, here we go, where going to end a up a smaller ACC increase and an additional safety education levy that adds up to the original amount!

I think Nick Smith is going to come out and say we mis heard a lot of things he said last night!

Ixion would be great if you could get your hands on a copy of that TV3 tape from the whole of the night???

[DIN PELENDA]

Maybe Smith is lying; he was caught in about 3 lies on the night

Ulysseus please explain..................are you negotiating as above?

Why are u on KB asking Useless to explain, as you self should do some investigation. You are old enough to join Useless and found out :lol::shutup::Oops:
I'm with you on this, we like to know answer to it, Mike get you self fluro vest.

Just out of curiosity how much is it to register bike in OZZY.

[idleidolidyll]

A very valid concern

but in this case , we need to go French on Master sMyth ,,, and the Bastille was never won over a cup of tea with Lord Chamberlain ( or his equivalent during the reign of terror )

Mass Disobedience and a clogging up of the courts !

Stephen

something I suggested from the outset but both Ulysseus and BRONZ condemned

[idleidolidyll]

Why are u on KB asking Useless to explain, as you self should do some investigation. You are old enough to join Useless and found out :lol::shutup::Oops:
I'm with you on this, we like to know answer to it, Mike get you self fluro vest.

Just out of curiosity how much is it to register bike in OZZY.

Din,

why should I be forced to join Ulysseus? It's not my kind of organisation.

I have no intention of joining but I do want to know if the statement from Smith is true or whether it is actually more of Smiths lies and manipulation.

I am actually MORE prepared to accept that Smith is full of shit than Ulysseus

[StoneY]

From day one, Peter Macintosh objected to the BIKEOI

However many Ulysses members stepped up as individuals and represented

Peter and myself had a discussion the night before the Oct 31st rally
The mans ego knows no bounds

He told me he believe Ulysses are the real voice of the bikers

Thank god Howard, Ken and John all have a saner view on the world

Nick Smith is quite likely to jave grasped at anything Peter Mac says as gospel, BRONZ will ensure this is not the case

Well done again Les

Represented mate

[idleidolidyll]

Yep I heard it loud and clear from Nick Smiths mouth.
The first thing I thought was, here we go, where going to end a up a smaller ACC increase and an additional safety education levy that adds up to the original amount!

I think Nick Smith is going to come out and say we mis heard a lot of things he said last night!

Ixion would be great if you could get your hands on a copy of that TV3 tape from the whole of the night???

So there ya go: it is confirmed from multiple sources on the night that Nick Smith said Ulysseus and Govt had agreed to enter into discussion/negotiations ringfencing a portion of the levy increase for use in safety/training progerammes.

The onus on Ulysseus is therefore to explain to its members whether this is Nick Smith bullshit or is indeed something being negotiated. I don't expect Ulysseus to post an answer here as they are not answerable to us in the same way BRONZ is not. However, I and I'm sure others here, would appreciate a member advising us of the efficacy of Smiths statements.

[Nasty]

So there ya go: it is confirmed from multiple sources on the night that Nick Smith said Ulysseus and Govt had agreed to enter into discussion/negotiations ringfencing a portion of the levy increase for use in safety/training progerammes.

The onus on Ulysseus is therefore to explain to its members whether this is Nick Smith bullshit or is indeed something being negotiated. I don't expect Ulysseus to post an answer here as they are not answerable to us in the same way BRONZ is not. However, I and I'm sure others here, would appreciate a member advising us of the efficacy of Smiths statements.


BRONZ is also not answerable to us (many of us are not members at this stage), and don't need to post here, that they choose to is to their benefit.

There is a HUGE proportion that Ulysses can not represent ... and will never represent ... those of us who are too young - or don't believe that we want to be part of a group that wants to grow old disgracefully. Thing is that they have plenty of money and do a lot of rider training and ongoing training, which is great for their group. But claiming to represent others is pathetic - and a mis-representation of their remit.

[knuckles24]

ullysses president and give us the answers to all this, have you sold your soul to nick smith or not and as far as being the voice for all bikers ullysses are not my voice i can speak for myself. :argh:

[zzzz]

Ullysses is not my voice either and would like to know the answer as well.
Have thought about joining in the past.

[awayatc]

FFS, of course Nick Smith was lying........
A dead give away...
His lips were moving....

[idleidolidyll]

perhaps he was but other comments on this thread, some from inside sources, seem to suggest there is some truth in the statement.

[CookMySock]

So there ya go: it is confirmed from multiple sources on the night that Nick Smith said Ulysseus and Govt had agreed to enter into discussion/negotiations ringfencing a portion of the levy increase for use in safety/training progerammes.Ulysseus has been pulling funding from govt agencies for some years. It seems to me they are more interested in exploiting another source of revenue, than resolving the issue at hand. If they don't watch out, the whole thing will backfire on them and they will be high and dry. The govt tends to dump external service providers when they look bad.

Steve

[Reckless]

I still think we have to be very careful here. As said before a lot of what Nick Smith said can be interpreted in different ways, typical Parliament talk.
A lot of groups have had some sort of discussion with Nick Smith about rider education and he's come up with the bullshit (which could be interpreted two ways) he spouted on the night.

Be very careful our anger at National is not dividing and conquering us by alienating Ulysses. If that becomes the case all the good done at last nights meeting is undone and Dickhead Smith has won. The comments about the Ulysses president are uncalled for on a public forum. They still are a very respected group and a powerful Allie. Bronze and them together are probably the best representation we have and they need to be united and communicating with each other. If this thread hasn't wrecked that already.

Maybe Ixion should simply ring him up and ask if what we thought Nick smith said was true, before this gets out of hand.

IMHO a thread entitled "please explain why you're selling us out" is not the way to enter into the issue when its only Nick Smith's words that this is based on.
And Steve (DB) is there any basis in fact whatsoever for your assumptions? That was very broad and very offensive.

Many of you must realise KB is a factor in this and the opinions expressed here are being monitored, reported and may be destructive to the cause.

Ps I have nothing whatsoever to do with Ulysses, I just think all bikers just need to be united at this time!
Just my 2c

[Mully]

The onus on Ulysseus is therefore to explain to its members whether this is Nick Smith bullshit or is indeed something being negotiated. I don't expect Ulysseus to post an answer here as they are not answerable to us in the same way BRONZ is not. However, I and I'm sure others here, would appreciate a member advising us of the efficacy of Smiths statements.

Just a thought:

Doesn't ACC/The Minister have to consult with "Industry Groups" on changing the levy structure (which they are doing by proposing a scale, not just the amounts)?

Anyone think that maybe Smithy thought he was away laughing because he'd "consulted" with a single person from Ulysses?

[ManDownUnder]

Which raises a question - who are the industry groups that could be consulted?

I don't think KB would claim to be one. BRONZ certainly is, given that their raison d'etre, Ulysses I'm not so sure of given their mantra of growing old disgracefully. I know it's a bit of fun but given an entry criteria is the need to be 40 or over they simply can NOT claim to speak for all motorcyclists.

They ruled themselves out

[avgas]

Bluff has been called?

[duckonin]

I do not think it is fair to say that there has been a lack of support from Ulysses, per se. Many members of Ulysses have stood shoulder to shoulder with us - Howard Mansell and many others rode on the BIKEOI, that troublesome bearded gentleman was at the Yacht Club tonight giving Nick what for.

And Ulysses were the first off the mark to organise meetings - they did not want to do rides but that was because of fears that if one went wrong and someone was injured it could all backfire, a reasonable concern.

SO I think Ulyssians have fronted up. Any deals between their President and Nick seem to have been on a personal level.

Yes a lot of ulysses members rode to Welly in protest, not just those from the Auck's branch, the president of ulysses can speak for himself if his veiws differ from the majority,:argh: most others have their own view on the matter and that is RIDE, RIDE HARD AND PROTEST....Not all of us have big paying jobs, a dollar is a dollar.:angry2:

Ulysses was formed as a social club not a political allegiance to the Govt of the day.:whistle:

[duckonin]

Ulysseus has been pulling funding from govt agencies for some years. It seems to me they are more interested in exploiting another source of revenue, than resolving the issue at hand. If they don't watch out, the whole thing will backfire on them and they will be high and dry. The govt tends to dump external service providers when they look bad.

Steve

Back your statment up with figures Steve !!!!!!

[CookMySock]

And DB is there any basis in fact whatsoever for your assumptions? That was very broad and very offensive.Well it is important not to offend, and I agree with your cautious approach.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS they get funding from a govt department to run their training courses. MY UNDERSTANDING IS it is from ACC.

You, or any interested person, should verify this yourselves. On the Internet, my opinion is ONLY MY UNVERIFIED OPINION.

YMMV, do the math, cap fits or not, square peg/round hole, etc, shoot own foot etc, standard disclaimer applies.

But who wouldn't exploit a new funding source?

Steve

[RiderInBlack]

Obviously a "Divide And Concur" tactic by Nick Myth. I wouldn't buy into it. Can't see the Ulysses Riders up here going for that.

[Tank]

Ulysseus has been pulling funding from govt agencies for some years.


Back your statment up with figures Steve !!!!!!




MY UNDERSTANDING IS they get funding from a govt department to run their training courses. MY UNDERSTANDING IS it is from ACC.

You, or any interested person, should verify this yourselves. On the Internet, my opinion is ONLY MY UNVERIFIED OPINION.




FFS - If you dont know something dont put it forward as you did in your first post as FACT (until someone calls you out on it).

It dosnt help at all and as is the way with the internet - Someone may actually believe you and repeat it as fact to back up a valid argument - then they start laughing at us as we cannot even get basic facts right.

Of course this is assuming anyone actually believes you - its a remote possibility - but I guess its possible that someone would.

So - PLEASE try - along with everyone else (at least in the ACC threads) to only post information that you KNOW to be correct.

Not something you may have heard off a bloke at the pub who once dated the sisiter of a guy who knew someone.

[Tank]

For what it is worth - their official position is:


Statement of Position from the National Committee 8th November 2009

The Ulysses Club is against the current changes to ACC put forward by the government.

They will adversely impact on many New Zealanders by increasing levies and/or reducing services.

In particular, we are very concerned at the punitive approach being taken with regard to the heavy increases in ACC levies being proposed on motorcycle registration.

This has been done without consultation with the motorcycling fraternity
and totally disregards the efforts made by this club and others to improve safety on the road for all riders.

We believe that it is time for a comprehensive review of ACC and the way in which it is now operating.

The government should establish a robust and transparent public investigation
to conduct this review and to include the accuracy of ACC’s stated statistics on its present costings, the methodology of acquiring the statistics, and the analysis of them in the review.

We offer the opportunity to ACC and the government to engage in omprehensive dialogue on all matters relating to motorcycles and to work towards a fair and equitable resolution for all concerned.

The Ulysses Club would also support a return to injury prevention and other programmes focussed on reducing the risks to motorcyclists.

[mashman]

Anyone think that maybe Smithy thought he was away laughing because he'd "consulted" with a single person from Ulysses?

It had crossed my mind!!! The guy seems ignorant enough!

[firefighter]

They have no right to accept anything on behalf of anyone apart from their own members, and to sit there and "accept the new levies" is just crap.

From what iv'e seen from them so far, they need to take a back seat, sit down and shut the fuck up.

Going by the fact they're all 1000 years old, with all that "life experience" and mid-life crisis professional members, they would surely have something intelligent and valuable to add to the cause. So far all they've done is embarrass themselves on television and then show a total lack of will to fight for a fair deal.

With the cirtieria of being over 40 being a pre-requisite, surely Ulysses have some members of high calibre to step forward?

A lawyer? Polly? Surely.

I'm sure they could find a more media savvy and well groomed member for any further talks.

BRONZ are the only organisation in my eyes who represent us all without prejudice, so only they can accept the new fees, in leiu of motorcycle training......



NOTE: If it is bollox then apologies where appropriate.

[Tank]

I have had Ulysses emailed asking them if this is indeed correct - I will post when I receive a reply.

[duckonin]

They have no right to accept anything on behalf of anyone apart from their own members, and to sit there and "accept the new levies" is just crap.

From what iv'e seen from them so far, they need to take a back seat, sit down and shut the fuck up.

Going by the fact they're all 1000 years old, with all that "life experience" and mid-life crisis professional members they would have something intelligent and valuable to add to the cause. So far all they've done is embarrass on television and then show a total lack of will to fight for a fair deal.

BRONZ are the only organisation in my eyes who represent us all without prejudice, so only they can accept the new fees, in leiu of motorcycle training......

Fucken idjits.

Next they'll be voting Winnie back in.

Sit down you old farts brfore you break another hip. :angry2:

NOTE: If it is bollox then apologies where appropriate.

Bronz also has ulysses members on the committee, the 1000 year old saying is united we stand divided we fall, and in time u yourself shall be a 1000 years old not long from now, then you shall hear the same crap from someone like yourself.....It will be your turn to listern to the words of wisdom coming from another like yourself, to sit down and shut the fuck up.:whistle:."Fucken idgit"

Any contribution to a problem is welcome as long as it is constructive;)

[firefighter]

Bronz also has ulysses members on the committee, the 1000 year old saying is united we stand divided we fall, and in time u yourself shall be a 1000 years old not long from now, then you shall hear the same crap from someone like yourself.....It will be your turn to listern to the words of wisdom coming from another like yourself, to sit down and shut the fuck up.:whistle:."Fucken idgit"

Any contribution to a problem is welcome as long as it is constructive;)

I merely ask for it's "wise" members to be put forward. Rather than hairy rough bastards. I can only assume there must surely be some legal professionals etc amoungst the ranks?

I have'nt offered "words of wisdom" because i'm still waiting for the oldies to cough it up. It seems there is none.

Oh, and I am the old bastard amounst my circle, so I already have to hear the same crap coming from someone like myself!

Ulyssess members may be on BRONZ's commitee, which is great (really) but only BRONZ should be representing motorcyclists and making deals. (unless there is another group of equal stature out there)

[duckonin]

I merely ask for it's "wise" members to be put forward. Rather than hairy rough bastards. I can only assume there must surely be some legal professionals etc amoungst the ranks?

I have'nt offered "words of wisdom" because i'm still waiting for the oldies to cough it up. It seems there is none.

Oh, and I am the old bastard amounst my circle, so I already have to hear the same crap coming from someone like myself!

Ulyssess members may be on BRONZ's commitee, which is great (really) but only BRONZ should be representing motorcyclists and making deals. (unless there is another group of equal stature out there)

There in lies some of the problem.( legal professionals amongst the ranks) better to use opinions of the hairy rough bastards, more words of wisdom can be obtained at times...:sweatdrop

[STJim]

Well it is important not to offend, and I agree with your cautious approach.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS they get funding from a govt department to run their training courses. MY UNDERSTANDING IS it is from ACC.

You, or any interested person, should verify this yourselves. On the Internet, my opinion is ONLY MY UNVERIFIED OPINION.

YMMV, do the math, cap fits or not, square peg/round hole, etc, shoot own foot etc, standard disclaimer applies.

But who wouldn't exploit a new funding source?

Steve

With respect steve an unverified opinion are dangerous. At this stage most Ulysses Traing courses have been funded at a local level.
Hamilton branch has been running courses for some years. The funding has all been negotiaed at a local level -some from ACC a lot from another local source

[Reckless]

You, or any interested person, should verify this yourselves.

I would generally let it go, but you directly quoted me, so I respond thus

I don't think its up to me (or anyone else) to verify your accusations my friend.
You made serve, I returned the ball, its still your court to substantiate the claims IMHO.

[Ixion]

I do not think BRONZ would consider itself to have a mandate to "make deals" on behalf of motorcyclists.

We can advocate for motorcyclists in general, and express what we believe to be the opinion of the motorcycling community ; and convey information and opinion to that community.

But I do not think that any motorcyclist has expressed any agreement for BRONZ (or any other organisation) to strike a deal on his or her behalf.

We may intimate to TPTB that we think that such and such would be generally acceptable or unacceptable to motorcyclists, but that would as far as we would go.

[StoneY]

Bottom line is Nix Myth will desperately grab at any straw to assist with justifying his increases

I know Peter Mac has been 'keen' to work with Minister Smith all along as where the rest of us want to hang the pratt so Nicky boy will cling to Peter Mac's offer like a holy grail

All we can do is make sure the minister is aware, Ulysses are NOT representative of the NZ Motorcycle community, theye are a club that represents it own members, and ONLY its membership

I have sent Nick an e-mail stating as such, and as I am the person he INVITED to negotiate at the BIKEOI with up to 11 colleagues.....it will carry a little weight I would hope.....

[Bald Eagle]

Bottom line is Nix Myth will desperately grab at any straw to assist with justifying his increases

I know Peter Mac has been 'keen' to work with Minister Smith all along as where the rest of us want to hang the pratt so Nicky boy will cling to Peter Mac's offer like a holy grail

All we can do is make sure the minister is aware, Ulysses are NOT representative of the NZ Motorcycle community, theye are a club that represents it own members, and ONLY its membership

I have sent Nick an e-mail stating as such, and as I am the person he INVITED to negotiate at the BIKEOI with up to 11 colleagues.....it will carry a little weight I would hope.....

I still have a concern that he is going to try and use the bikeoi meeting as his section 330 consultation.
A legal opinion on what constitutes consultation would be nice. We also have yet to receive / ask for the promised meeting to do that.
Given yesterdays ACC media release, which I see has been gratefully regurgitated by the Harold and others I believe it's time to stop playing nice.

[Reckless]

I still have a concern that he is going to try and use the bikeoi meeting as his section 330 consultation.

Surely for it to be legal that would have to be stated and agreed before hand?

Secondly how do we know he hasn't already had a meeting with some group somewhere and solved this Issue. Would have been a good question to put directly to him last night!

[Ixion]

Our political allies are looking at the consultation question. It only requires that the Minister consult those he considers "appropriate" . It's really only of political value.

[StoneY]

Guys, lets not bash Ulysses up

I just had a chat with Peter Mac
He is disapointed in the retoric here, his reply will come to me for posting here via e-mail

Nick has not been in direct contact with the minister at all
Ulysses have made NO deals, Nick is lying

Ulysses wish to work TOGETHER here so calm down and wait for Peters reply which I will post seperately so the clutter does not diminish it

Ulysses are as much a victim of propaganda here as we are from what I have heard direct from thier president guys (who btw gave me a telling off for my own comments earlier in thread, might be deserved too TBH)

WE, have jumped the gun, and gone on Nix Myth word, without even asking Ulysses what was said to whom, they are adamant they made NO agreement with Nicky

[Mully]

Our political allies are looking at the consultation question. It only requires that the Minister consult those he considers "appropriate" . It's really only of political value.

Except that he would be opening himself (and the Gummint) up to potential legal action if he failed to "reasonably" consult "in good faith".


Guys, lets not bash Ulysses up

Nick has not been in direct contact with the minister at all
Ulysses have made NO deals, Nick is lying

Ulysses wish to work TOGETHER here so calm down and wait for Peters reply which I will post seperately so the clutter does not diminish it

Ulysses are as much a victim of propaganda here as we are from what I have heard direct from thier president guys

Which is pretty much what I surmised.

Onya StoneY

[Reckless]

Guys, lets not bash Ulysses up

I just had a chat with Peter Mac
He is disapointed in the retoric here, his reply will come to me for posting here via e-mail

Nick has not been in direct contact with the minister at all
Ulysses have made NO deals, Nick is lying

Ulysses wish to work TOGETHER here so calm down and wait for Peters reply which I will post seperately so the clutter does not diminish it

Ulysses are as much a victim of propaganda here as we are from what I have heard direct from thier president guys (who btw gave me a telling off for my own comments earlier in thread, might be deserved too TBH)

WE, have jumped the gun, and gone on Nix Myth word, without even asking Ulysses what was said to whom, they are adamant they made NO agreement with Nicky



Which is pretty much what I surmised.

Onya StoneY

Agreed same as what I said earlier. Thats good enough for me! Even two people's word I have never met over that dodgy Nicks Myth bloke!

Thanks for getting onto it and letting us know Stoney!

[avgas]

WE, have jumped the gun, and gone on Nix Myth word, without even asking Ulysses what was said to whom, they are adamant they made NO agreement with Nicky

Its called transparency.
Sounds to me like Ulysses have some governance issues. Either that or they have got with their hand in the jar.
Frankly I thought a group like Ulysses would be a bit more vocal about what they have found talking to Nick. What do they gain by keeping it quiet?

[StoneY]

In all honesty Peter Mac rang me up and tore me a new one, and deservedly so

Ulysses stepped up on the BIKEOI
We swallowed Nick's hook, line and sinker, and he reeled us in, and were meant to know a troll when we see one...sigh

Peter e-mailing me soon, I will post his statement up

[StoneY]

Dear Minister Smith

I was highly alarmed to see on the news last night your statement about ‘reaching an agreement’ with the Ulysses club of New Zealand in regards to how the ACC levy’s are to be re-directed to rider safety etc
This is a fine idea in principle, but does not address the core issue here, ACC is NOT broke, there is NO need for a levy increase, and you are still insisting on providing false data to the New Zealand public

I understand from first hand conversation with the President of Ulysses this is not an agreement or any sort of vindication from them, and that they are concerned their suggestions have been taken as ‘a unilateral agreement on behalf of all motorcyclists’ as are the rest of the motorcycle community

Ulysses are well respected members of the nationwide fraternity, but in no way do they represent the entire NZ Motorcycle fraternity, they are a small percentage of the total and are not by any stretch of the imagination a lobbying body with the authority to speak on my (or anyone other than their memberships) behalf

Our community has already seen this attempt at misinformation via media release for exactly what it is, another attempt to divide and conquer

I would urge you to continue to keep dialogue open with BRONZ, Ulysses, HOG and WIMA, but to treat any one of these bodies as a ‘official consultation’ when dealing with only one of any of the above mentioned organizations is an insult to the New Zealand public. This was discussed on the 17th and you invited the key players to continue discussion….this has not yet occurred yet you claim last night a deal has been struck!

We came in numbers with only 3 weeks to prepare our campaign sir, if we have to return again we will, and even bigger, to remind you we are not trout’s, we are not stupid, and we DO remember

Regards,

Brent Hutchison
BIKEOI Organizer

[Reckless]

Dear Minister Smith

I was highly alarmed to see on the news last night your statement about ‘reaching an agreement’ with the Ulysses club of New Zealand

Was it on the news Stoney? Where mate?

[StoneY]

Was mentioned on late news, quick summary, no video

But yep he clearly said its an 'agreement' and then I read the thread, oh bugger........

Wonder if hes gonna publish the speech on his or Nat's websites?

[RiderInBlack]

Obviously a "Divide And Concur" tactic by Nick Myth. I wouldn't buy into it. Can't see the Ulysses Riders up here going for that.So from what StoneY is saying here, I was totally right with what I posted before. "WE" (and in that term I mean KB) should owe Ulysses an appoligy here. Ya'd think we would know a "Troll" when we see one by now on KB, but Nick Myth had us hooked and played with us. We need ta make Tricky Nickie wish he hadn't "Hooked" us.

[Brian d marge]

something I suggested from the outset but both Ulysseus and BRONZ condemned

yes but you must ask them nicely first ...its only proper

Then you shit in the wash basin

Just wish this had happened 20 years ago with other issues

Stephen

On a separate note

With Cullen coming out with the Muver of all rescue packages. (IS) There really is something bigger than this ?

They cannot ( for reasons I don't know why yet ) cannot keep borrowing at this current rate

we are exporting the shoes of our kids feet and still not making ends meet ?

Wonder why

Stephen

[SPman]

Just out of curiosity how much is it to register bike in OZZY.
In WA its about $220 for a 250 or less and about $235 for over 250cc. Rego fee of $33 for small and $50 for big bikes, third party injury insurance about $150-160 and the rest in sundries and GST.

[Tone165]

Who is "us"? The problem is that motorcyclists are as diverse as the rest of the population in their views. I wouldn't actually object to paying more if it was equitable i.e if the groups you mentioned paid their share too.

However, there is something I object to even more. However much money we pay, it's simply "cost plus" inasmuch that it's not addressing the root cause of accidents so the position will never improve unless there are initiatives to reduce accidents by raising driving standards. Just paying out as ACC suggest is simply a gross waste of taxpayer money and there's no way I would support that on its own.

I didn't know about the Ulysses suggestion but it sounds that they're trying to address the route cause.

You say that Ulysses don't represent you. Possibly not, but your views as stated don't represent me either. No offence intended.

I pretty much agree with this also.

Too much "Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff" and not enough "Fence at the top" sort of thinking here.

General driver standards (of all types of road vehicles) are pretty dismal, we could take a lesson from the Yanks here, who incorporate "Driver Education" in the high school curiculum.

Calls for removal or bikeproofing of cheese cutter and Armco fencing has been largely ignored, sending the message that the authorities don't care about motorcyclist safety, yet figures that MUST contain the very data that has been presented to have something done there, is now used against us, to prove what a liability we are.

People are not as gullible or easy to mislead as the media or govt want to beleive, but as some clever person once noted..

the only thing that has to happen for bad things to happen is for good ppl to do nothing. (or words to that general effect)

[caseye]

Ulysses were simply asked to explain Mr Smiths comment.The rest of course is History.it's taken nearly 24 hours to get any sort of response from Ulysses, this is understandable but that response is critical and we must make absolutely clear that at this point in time, no One Group has the power to speak for Bikers in general at least not until all the relevant groups have meet and discussed and agreed on who actually does and should speak for us.
My own humble opinion is that the group/organisation who should be given the task of representing the majority of bikers is BRONZ.
For a measley $25.00 you and your family become BRONZ members and they get some badly needed fighting funds.
If all you hairy arsed bikers out there simply joined the organisation of your choice it would quickly become apparent which group should represent the average NZ Motorcyclist.

[Blackbird]

People are not as gullible or easy to mislead as the media or govt want to beleive, but as some clever person once noted..

the only thing that has to happen for bad things to happen is for good ppl to do nothing. (or words to that general effect)

Yep:niceone: and one definition of Insanity is: "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". I think that this also sums up both Labour and National attitude to motoring/riding initiatives.

[idleidolidyll]

what he said but without copying all of it

Thanks Tank; it is noted that this is the official position but Smiths comments were very clear and I would still like to know whether the Prez of Ulysseus thinks he is negotiating for us all, whether he is indeed conceding increases for training funds etc

The clubs position may not square with what is actually being said and only a comment from the horses mouth will really put this to bed.

As I've already said: Smith was caught lying again last night so his credibility is low: I'm prepared to believe and accept the Prez over and above Smith if he deigns to comment but if thew general riding public discover Ulysseus do in fact sell out for some training $$$$; I reckon there will be hell to pay.

I'm not a member but I'd like to know if people think they speak for me and if organisations are negotiating their own cosy settlement like the Maori Party did on this very issue.

[idleidolidyll]

I do not think BRONZ would consider itself to have a mandate to "make deals" on behalf of motorcyclists.

Now THAT is right thinking stuff

We can advocate for motorcyclists in general, and express what we believe to be the opinion of the motorcycling community ; and convey information and opinion to that community.

But I do not think that any motorcyclist has expressed any agreement for BRONZ (or any other organisation) to strike a deal on his or her behalf.

We may intimate to TPTB that we think that such and such would be generally acceptable or unacceptable to motorcyclists, but that would as far as we would go.

ya see, this kind of talk makes me want to send you a membership fee but i suspect it'd be returned with a polite letter

[idleidolidyll]

Nick has not been in direct contact with the minister at all
Ulysses have made NO deals, Nick is lying



Thanks stoney and thanks to the prez at ulysseus for stating absolutely that Smith is a liar.

I hereby retract all implied or spoken condemnation of Ulysseus and offer my apologies to all members.

Mind you; the one thing I don't retract is that Ulysseus do not represent me.

[idleidolidyll]

In all honesty Peter Mac rang me up and tore me a new one, and deservedly so

Ulysses stepped up on the BIKEOI
We swallowed Nick's hook, line and sinker, and he reeled us in, and were meant to know a troll when we see one...sigh

Peter e-mailing me soon, I will post his statement up

Actually it has NOT been a wasted debate: it has clarified that Smith IS indeed a bald faced liar and made it clear that Ulysseus are not gonna play his game.

I don't regret the first post and PM should NOT have torn you a new one; he should be more pissed at Smith and send us a copy of his angry email to Smith refuting his bullshit

[idleidolidyll]

Dear Minister Smith

We came in numbers with only 3 weeks to prepare our campaign sir, if we have to return again we will, and even bigger, to remind you we are not trout’s, we are not stupid, and we DO remember

Regards,

Brent Hutchison
BIKEOI Organizer

Big credit to you for that

[Mom]

I keep getting asked by the media what organisation I belong to, who am I affilliated to? My honest answer is NONE, NOT ONE. I am here representing myself as a motorcyclist, though it appears I have many friends. I have managed to get some media attention. I dont plan to change my approach to the media, this is not about organisations, or groups or any other damn thing! This is about ACC being turned into something it was never designed to be while the biking community gets royally screwed in the process. Well fukem I say! I am here for long haul.

[idleidolidyll]

the media like well tied up little bundles: they are impotent when dealing with a 'club' without a leader

if BRONZ dropped the objection to disruption I'd be happy for them to negotiate for me

[Flip]

Has anybody got a friendly Labour MP? Would they like to ask tricky Nick in the house why he is lying to the media again?

[StoneY]

Has anybody got a friendly Labour MP? Would they like to ask tricky Nick in the house why he is lying to the media again?

Done
Meeting Phil Goff tomorrow night for a wee chat
Also have 4 of the Labour caucus that have me on 'trusted sender' list now
;)

[StoneY]

Actually it has NOT been a wasted debate: it has clarified that Smith IS indeed a bald faced liar and made it clear that Ulysseus are not gonna play his game.

I don't regret the first post and PM should NOT have torn you a new one;

Oh he was actually a lot nicer about it than I would have been man
And after his two TV stints today, even more credit to him

Anyway, he made a good reply, and I think you will soon see a more targeted response to Nicks so called 'agreement'

[Ms Piggy]

Tonight Nick Smith told the crowd at the Akarana Royal Yacht Club that Ulysseus had agreed to accept levy increases in exchange for a portion of that money being set aside for accident prevention.

Hi idleidolidyll - can I respectfully request that you change the title of your post to reflect the fact that Ulysses do not support the proposed ACC Levy increase? Thanks, Ms Piggy.

[idleidolidyll]

Hi idleidolidyll - can I respectfully request that you change the title of your post to reflect the fact that Ulysses do not support the proposed ACC Levy increase? Thanks, Ms Piggy.

I actually tried to do as soon as I saw Brents replies that but you can't edit the Title: only the post

Hang on a sec; I'll change the post itself............................done!

[Mully]

I actually tried to do as soon as I saw Brents replies that but you can't edit the Title: only the post

Hang on a sec; I'll change the post itself............................

Pretty sure a Mod can do it if you ask nicely.....

[idleidolidyll]

Pretty sure a Mod can do it if you ask nicely.....

my relationship with most of the mods would probably preclude that and I can't think of many from whom I'd ask nicely for much of anything

however; methinks the new first sentence will do

[Ms Piggy]

I actually tried to do as soon as I saw Brents replies that but you can't edit the Title: only the post

Hang on a sec; I'll change the post itself............................done!

I'm pretty sure you can if you hit the "go advanced" button after you're in 'edit'.

[Conquiztador]

idle: This has NOT been a wasted exercise or a process of wrongful accusations. It has been a well deserved clarification of the standpoint of the Ulysses prez, and as such has united the bikerdom even more. Smittys intent to divide has backfired and he is digging him self deeper. He still has not understood that we do not walk around 24/7 in black leathers.

Cheers to you for voicing this and cheers to Peter Mac of clarifying it all. There is still the small matter of Les's posting with some background info. But I will ignore any of that for the purpose of the end goal of this all.

United we go forward!

[Mom]

the media like well tied up little bundles: they are impotent when dealing with a 'club' without a leader

if BRONZ dropped the objection to disruption I'd be happy for them to negotiate for me

BRONZ are following a mandate that was voted on by majority at that meeting. BRONZ have a role to play in all this and should be supported in their attenpts to advocate for bikers rights. I bet if you pushed BRONZ though they will admit that they have no control over individuals and their actions. I am individual, I dont intend to be quiet.

BRONZ are not against disruption persay. They admit that some disruption is inevitable. They wont support any action that deliberatly sets out to disrupt. Cant be helped if some disruption happens though.

[Flip]

Joined Bronz a few weeks ago, stuck the patch on my vest and have alredy had to explain why I have BRONZ AUCKLAND on it. Its the Auckland that raises hackels down here.

[idleidolidyll]

idle: This has NOT been a wasted exercise or a process of wrongful accusations. It has been a well deserved clarification of the standpoint of the Ulysses prez, and as such has united the bikerdom even more. Smittys intent to divide has backfired and he is digging him self deeper. He still has not understood that we do not walk around 24/7 in black leathers.

Cheers to you for voicing this and cheers to Peter Mac of clarifying it all. There is still the small matter of Les's posting with some background info. But I will ignore any of that for the purpose of the end goal of this all.

United we go forward!

Indeed: I agree and actually I think it helps to cement us together in light of Nick Smiths lies

[Ixion]

Joined Bronz a few weeks ago, stuck the patch on my vest and have alredy had to explain why I have BRONZ AUCKLAND on it. Its the Auckland that raises hackels down here.

OK. Is easy . Restart BRONZ Christchurch. Stoney has got BRONZ wellington up and running again. Not hard. You are now the first President of BRONZ (Christchurch). Congratulations

Deadly serious.

(You could transfer to Timaru)

[mikeey01]

Flip where's the first meeting mate, I wanna join.

[StoneY]

Les aint joking either, BRONZ is rebuilding

Aucks have been uber supportive of our fledgling effort here in Welly

First meeting next week at PnJ
Monday 7pm

[Ixion]

Just needs someone to step up to the plate to call an inaugural meeting.

[izzyc]

Well i wont agree with the ulysses...if they have that outlook then they need to re-name themselves to USE-LESS, hey they have over 100k in their bank acc ....how about if they want the increase to promote safer riding, DONT TAKE IT OUT OF BIKE REGO'S.....TAKE it out of their COFFERS! ! ! ! !

[caseye]

Well i wont agree with the ulysses...if they have that outlook then they need to re-name themselves to USE-LESS, hey they have over 100k in their bank acc ....how about if they want the increase to promote safer riding, DONT TAKE IT OUT OF BIKE REGO'S.....TAKE it out of their COFFERS! ! ! ! !

Ho Hum, here we go again.
:Pokey::Pokey:

[Reckless]

I won't quote Izzy-c again I suppose everyone has their opinion but the thought occurred if Ulysses can get 100k (if this figure is accurate) why can't bronze from the same sources?? I don't know what the membership of both entities is, but you could well find Ulysses has a far larger following (over 4000 back in 1997 according to their website). IF the above is the case from the Govt's point of view, who really does have the larger representation for Motorcyclists???

If Ulysses money came from membership fees-everyone needs to front up and join Bronze (its only 20 bucks)-maybe bronze also needs to take this opportunity while they are at the forefront to think about doing some more group type activities etc.

If this 100k came from the Govt why can't Bronze get their hands on some of the same handouts?

If Ulysses have saved 100k from membership fees. Do the math 4000 x $55 = 200k on its own. They can spend it however the hell they like, its simply not anyones money but theirs! If it came from Acc or somewhere they may have no choice but to spend it where its supposed to go!
Mute argument as I see it!

Jeepers I for one applaud Ulysses stand after all the shit on this thread if I had 4000 plus members and 100k in the bank I'd have been tempted to tell you all to get fucked.

[Ixion]

The reason's fairly simple. Ulysses is a club. And has the usual club activities - rides, club nights and so on. People are conditioned to pay for that.

BRONZ isn't a club, it's an advocacy group. Most of the time , bikers aren't being targeted. So no-one sees any reason to join BRONZ. Then of course when we ARE targeted , everyone wants BRONZ to "do something" - but still very few actually join up.

Same thing as KiwiBiker - how much money has that raised from the thousands of "members" it has? Mr Spankme has to scramble to even try to cover costs on his T shirts.

If there's 100000 riders in the country and 10% of them put in $50 each, we'd be able to fund a proper professional publicity campaign. They won't, we can't.

[Katman]

BRONZ isn't a club, it's an advocacy group. Most of the time , bikers aren't being targeted. So no-one sees any reason to join BRONZ. Then of course when we ARE targeted , everyone wants BRONZ to "do something" - but still very few actually join up.



While we're on that subject, can you give us any idea how many motorcyclists have bothered to join BRONZ since this ACC thing started?

[Reckless]

The reason's fairly simple. Ulysses is a club. And has the usual club activities - rides, club nights and so on. People are conditioned to pay for that.

BRONZ isn't a club, it's an advocacy group. Most of the time , bikers aren't being targeted. So no-one sees any reason to join BRONZ. Then of course when we ARE targeted , everyone wants BRONZ to "do something" - but still very few actually join up.

Well that clears that up, and fair enough to. I can see your position and the difficulty of it. Makes your position tricky, but all the more reason for you and them to work together. I was very pleased to see your water under the bridge approach when you could have got a little aggrieved at a few things.
I'm glad I finally joined up last Wednesday. If you need a hand with anything PM me!



If there's 100000 riders in the country and 10% of them put in $50 each, we'd be able to fund a proper professional publicity campaign. They won't, we can't.

They should, then We could!!

[STJim]

Well i wont agree with the ulysses...if they have that outlook then they need to re-name themselves to USE-LESS, hey they have over 100k in their bank acc ....how about if they want the increase to promote safer riding, DONT TAKE IT OUT OF BIKE REGO'S.....TAKE it out of their COFFERS! ! ! ! !
As a member of Ulysses I am able to say that Ulysses funds are accumulated from membership fees and interest earned on those fees.
The club has an arragement which allows members to pay up to 3 yeeasr is advance.
The Ulysses Club of New Zealand is an Incorporated society.
It records including it's financila position is public information which can be seached for free on the Companies Office web site.
This would be one of the most uniformed rants that I have seen on this forum

[StoneY]

While we're on that subject, can you give us any idea how many motorcyclists have bothered to join BRONZ since this ACC thing started?


There will be a few on Monday in Wellington, that's for sure!

I been getting hammered with PMs and replies saying 'in joining'

[Ixion]

While we're on that subject, can you give us any idea how many motorcyclists have bothered to join BRONZ since this ACC thing started?
Between 100 and 200 in Auckland. Peggy's a bit behind, not used to ahving so many to process.

[Elysium]

While we're on that subject, can you give us any idea how many motorcyclists have bothered to join BRONZ since this ACC thing started?

Thinking of joining there ol Katman? :shifty:

Hmmm just a question while on the subject, does the Palmy area have a BRONZ presence?

[StoneY]

Thinking of joining there ol Katman? :shifty:

Hmmm just a question while on the subject, does the Palmy area have a BRONZ presence?

I don't believe so, but talk to Les.
Or join us in Wellington, not too far away

[Ixion]

Thinking of joining there ol Katman? :shifty:

Hmmm just a question while on the subject, does the Palmy area have a BRONZ presence?

Taranaki would cover it I imagine?

EDIT. I think Mr Katman has already joined up.

[caseye]

So it's safe to say that though most every ordinary motorcyclist in NZ now knows that the event they attended in Wellington was organised by BRONZ only a mere 200 have actually bothered to join up.
WOW, they're really serious.
We should become pro active and encourage anyone who doesn't have an affiliation with ANY motorcycle group to do so!
Obviously for our own(BRONZ) devious ends it'd be best if they joined us.

[Elysium]

I have to admit the thought of having a nice little patch sewed onto my jacket sounds tempting.

[NONONO]

The reason's fairly simple. Ulysses is a club. And has the usual club activities - rides, club nights and so on. People are conditioned to pay for that.

BRONZ isn't a club, it's an advocacy group. Most of the time , bikers aren't being targeted. So no-one sees any reason to join BRONZ. Then of course when we ARE targeted , everyone wants BRONZ to "do something" - but still very few actually join up.

Same thing as KiwiBiker - how much money has that raised from the thousands of "members" it has? Mr Spankme has to scramble to even try to cover costs on his T shirts.

If there's 100000 riders in the country and 10% of them put in $50 each, we'd be able to fund a proper professional publicity campaign. They won't, we can't.

For Fucks Sake Les..Ask for the donation!
Start the fighting fund, my $50.00 is here and waiting.

[Mom]

I have not joined BRONZ. It is quite deliberate too. I want to be able to do my own thing without being hampered (for want of a better word) by the mandates that they operate under. I may reconsider my position later down the track, but for now I want to be me - Mom - biker of NZ. When I am asked what group I belong to I can hand on heart say none. I am just me, a pissed off biker who seems to have lots of pissed off friends.

I fully support BRONZ and what they are doing, I do that in person, hands on when I can.

[Mom]

For Fucks Sake Les..Ask for the donation!
Start the fighting fund, my $50.00 is here and waiting.

There is already a fighting fund, it has been fundraising since this began.

If you want to donate:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=111363

If you want to buy protest materials

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=111452

We have a war chest, feel free to use it.

[Katman]

When I am asked what group I belong to I can hand on heart say none.



I only ever saw my $20 as a donation.

I don't belong to anyone.

[Mom]

I only ever saw my $20 as a donation.

I don't belong to anyone.

Oh really? Thats not what you told me last time we met :blip:

[NONONO]

There is already a fighting fund, it has been fundraising since this began.

If you want to donate:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=111363

If you want to buy protest materials

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=111452

We have a war chest, feel free to use it.

Sorry Mom had a look at that link and it looks like a fund raiser for the Welly ride.
Think we need something updated, raising funds for specifics, such as the newspaper add or a lobbyist's fees.
Maybe a new thread with specifics eh?

[MadDuck]

Sorry Mom had a look at that link and it looks like a fund raiser for the Welly ride.
Think we need something updated, raising funds for specifics, such as the newspaper add or a lobbyist's fees.
Maybe a new thread with specifics eh?

It was intended to carry through beyond the Welly protest ride but bear in mind this all happened rather quickly. But I can see what you mean from the initial thread.

I am more than happy to continue to administer any fundraising required to fight the ACC campaign.

For some strange reason I can no longer update the thread - I have advised the Mods. So a new thread is more than probable

[Mom]

Sorry Mom had a look at that link and it looks like a fund raiser for the Welly ride.
Think we need something updated, raising funds for specifics, such as the newspaper add or a lobbyist's fees.
Maybe a new thread with specifics eh?

Not a new thread, I am sure the mods have enough to do. Maybe a re-vamp of the original. Thank you for pointing it out. I have not been near it since it started, though I no longer have a functioning iron, mine died ironing transfers :laugh:

[NONONO]

It was intended to carry through beyond the Welly protest ride but bear in mind this all happened rather quickly. But I can see what you mean from the initial thread.

I am more than happy to continue to administer any fundraising required to fight the ACC campaign.

For some strange reason I can no longer update the thread - I have advised the Mods. So a new thread is more than probable

Jut thinking aloud..
A newly named fighting fund.
Les asked for $50 per biker, mines waiting.
Specific goals for the fund.
Start it today, advertise it at Toy Run on Sat.
I think if we are fund raising a war chest it needs to be organized and in our faces. No good, the sewing circle and the T shirt guys working their arses off for a few dollars ( all credit to them, and for all I know they may have raised thousands). Lets get some decent money up and working for us.
On another thread people are costing billboards and it looks like serious money, but not if we all chip in what we can.
Good on yer all for the work so far.

[pritch]

With the cirtieria of being over 40 being a pre-requisite




I understand that the average age of motorcyclists in this country is currently around 43 and rising. Obviously some of us are below average in this respect. And possibly other respects as well?

[caseye]

My $50.00 is ready and waiting too Ixion.
Does the poor buger have to ASK us, come on you lot, hands in deep, deeper, thats it get it out!
Lets give our representatives something to fight properly with.

[caseye]

I understand that the average age of motorcyclists in this country is currently around 43 and rising. Obviously some of us are below average in this respect. And possibly other respects as well?

pritch the over 40 to join relates specifically to Ulysses, not BRONZ or any of the other groups represented here. The average age of NZ's motorcycling enthusiasts is 46 yrs or thereabouts. yes.
Aged bikers , slow down and don't do nearly as much silly stuff as they used to.
Is this what you were referring to by any chance, we didn't get to be old bikers by staying silly and bullet proof.

[StoneY]

Aged bikers , slow down and don't do nearly as much silly stuff as they used to.


Speak for yaself Cas!

Only time I ever got me a 'timeout' was the day after I turned OLD!

Sigh...I farkin hate the bus!

[StoneY]

though I no longer have a functioning iron, mine died ironing transfers :laugh:

I have a spare Mon!
PM address, saves me placing it on trademe LOL

[Mom]

I have a spare Mon!
PM address, saves me placing it on trademe LOL

:o shucks! You are a lovely thang. Friggen Fly Buys did not come to the party for a new one...LOL

[FastBikeGear]

Les, just a thought

Although I have yet to join BRONZ or Ulysses is there some way on KB for those who are paid up members or who have made a donation to indicate they are.

Could they put a BRONZ or Ulysses icon in their signatures or something.

It might help promote your membership.

[kinger]

Could they put a BRONZ or Ulysses icon in their signatures or something.

You'd need to be careful there mate, apparently permission from on high is needed to use the Ulysses logo for non approved stuff.
As a member of the club, I'm glad the animosity in this thread seems to have died down, and would once again reiterate that it is a social club for over 40s with an interest in bikes, not a political forum.

No one in the club speaks for me. The few fellow branch members who rode to Welly did so of their own accord, not under instruction.

[duckonin]

Les, just a thought

Although I have yet to join BRONZ or Ulysses is there some way on KB for those who are paid up members or who have made a donation to indicate they are.

Could they put a BRONZ or Ulysses icon in their signatures or something.

It might help promote your membership.

Hi Matey if you asked the right Q u you would get an answer.

I am a member of Ulysses.. Yesterday I paid a family membership to BRONZ Auck's, knowing my subs to both will be put to good use, motorcyclists do need to have a leader speaking for them on matters that are upon us now ACC .. to do this alone is futilty.Yes I know my subs do not amount to much, but if more joined then collectively the fighting fund for the future will help , if in the event it is not needed then I am sure BRONZ will put it to good use with rider training or to a needy charity...

[idleidolidyll]

duckonin: it isn't insubstantial, it's exactly what's needed

however, along with your subscription, you get the right to participate and help steer either organisation toward your perception of the 'right way'

motorcycling does need leadership but the term itself is often misconstrued: a leader is not someone who acts as a dictator or despot, a leader is someone the members will follow because he or she sets a shining example

the best leaders are often those who don't even want to be leaders

i've never been much of a clubby but recent events have shifted my ideas a bit.
i don't agree with all BRONZ is doing but they are doing what their membership voted for and they gave all of us an open opportunity to participate even though we were not members (penrose a month or so ago).

in the last week i've slowly thawed to the idea of joining and participating.
however, where we disagree, i will act as an individual once i'm a member

ulysseus isn't my kind of org; too many grandads and grammas (joke, i am one). ulysseus is not an org convened on behalf of all motorcyclists; its a club, BRONZ has at its heart the philosophy required to be the national voice of everyone regardless of which club you also belong to

[flyingcrocodile46]

duckonin: it isn't insubstantial, it's exactly what's needed

however, along with your subscription, you get the right to participate and help steer either organisation toward your perception of the 'right way'

motorcycling does need leadership but the term itself is often misconstrued: a leader is not someone who acts as a dictator or despot, a leader is someone the members will follow because he or she sets a shining example

the best leaders are often those who don't even want to be leaders

i've never been much of a clubby but recent events have shifted my ideas a bit.
i don't agree with all BRONZ is doing but they are doing what their membership voted for and they gave all of us an open opportunity to participate even though we were not members (penrose a month or so ago).

in the last week i've slowly thawed to the idea of joining and participating.
however, where we disagree, i will act as an individual once i'm a member

ulysseus isn't my kind of org; too many grandads and grammas (joke, i am one). ulysseus is not an org convened on behalf of all motorcyclists; its a club, BRONZ has at its heart the philosophy required to be the national voice of everyone regardless of which club you also belong to

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[caseye]

duckonin: it isn't insubstantial, it's exactly what's needed

however, along with your subscription, you get the right to participate and help steer either organisation toward your perception of the 'right way'

motorcycling does need leadership but the term itself is often misconstrued: a leader is not someone who acts as a dictator or despot, a leader is someone the members will follow because he or she sets a shining example

the best leaders are often those who don't even want to be leaders

i've never been much of a clubby but recent events have shifted my ideas a bit.
i don't agree with all BRONZ is doing but they are doing what their membership voted for and they gave all of us an open opportunity to participate even though we were not members (penrose a month or so ago).

in the last week i've slowly thawed to the idea of joining and participating.
however, where we disagree, i will act as an individual once i'm a member

ulysseus isn't my kind of org; too many grandads and grammas (joke, i am one). ulysseus is not an org convened on behalf of all motorcyclists; its a club, BRONZ has at its heart the philosophy required to be the national voice of everyone regardless of which club you also belong to

Well put Ideli.BRONZ are leading the way on the ACC thing when it comes to organising the main events, so far as I'm aware.(I know that Ulysses and other clubs have and do organise other protest activities, I 've attended a few of em)
Leading the charge isn't the plum job here though, it's going to get low down and dirty.
The suggestion that the major clubs organisations get together and sort out who takes point is a good one.

[Ixion]

..
i've never been much of a clubby but recent events have shifted my ideas a bit.
i don't agree with all BRONZ is doing but they are doing what their membership voted for and they gave all of us an open opportunity to participate even though we were not members (penrose a month or so ago).

,

Nor would BRONZ want you to do anything else. BRONZ stands for Bikers' RIGHTS. You can hardly have rights if you are dictated to.

BRONZ is not an organisation that dictates to bikers. BRONZ is an organisation that tries (It's hard, folks, cut us some slack) to assess what bikers want, and articulates that to TPTB.

To try to stifle the opinions of those that do not agree would be contrary to every precept of rights and free speech.

It's not a club!
]

It is, perhaps , a megaphone where inidividualk voices can be amplified.

[DEVVIL]

Jut thinking aloud..
A newly named fighting fund.
Les asked for $50 per biker, mines waiting.
Specific goals for the fund.
Start it today, advertise it at Toy Run on Sat.
I think if we are fund raising a war chest it needs to be organized and in our faces. No good, the sewing circle and the T shirt guys working their arses off for a few dollars ( all credit to them, and for all I know they may have raised thousands). Lets get some decent money up and working for us.
On another thread people are costing billboards and it looks like serious money, but not if we all chip in what we can.
Good on yer all for the work so far.

Bikeoi 2 $10 per bike on a weekend 10,000 bike's
or a toy run at each city $10 each bike $$$$

[NONONO]

Bikeoi 2 $10 per bike on a weekend 10,000 bike's
or a toy run at each city $10 each bike $$$$

How bout Taupo, sometime late Jan as a fund raising event?
Close enough for all the north island to get together( I'm sure Auckland will accommodate the far north), ride home same day or stay the night and party?
Taupo, as from 2010, the Motorcycle Mecca of NZ.
Bulldog Bash and Sturgis, fuck em, we have ....ermmm Taupo?

[Katman]

It is, perhaps , a megaphone where inidividualk voices can be amplified.

Can you turn mine up please?

:eek:

[Ixion]

Can you turn mine up please?

:eek:

I'm quite willing to do so. I don't personally agree with the message but that is irrelevant. BRONZ is the voice of BIKERS not it's officers.

Tell me the message and I'll do my best to megaphone it. (Though maybe not to the politicians, they would misinterpret it , and I think your message is for internal consumption)

[Ixion]

Following on from that, would you take on the role of President , BRONZ , Taupo? Bearing in mind that the National body of BRONZ is very minimalist?

[NONONO]

Following on from that, would you take on the role of President , BRONZ , Taupo? Bearing in mind that the National body of BRONZ is very minimalist?

Gladly Les, but as you can see I live in Auckland.
President BRONZ Taupo (Nomads). Temporary Appointment (Expired)
But seriously would love to be involved more, any ideas?

[Katman]

I don't personally agree with the message but that is irrelevant.

At the risk of pissing you off Les, I actually think you agree with a lot more of the message than you're prepared to openly admit to.

Would it help if I let you be Arnie?

[Pixie]

I'm quite willing to do so. I don't personally agree with the message but that is irrelevant. BRONZ is the voice of BIKERS not it's officers.

Tell me the message and I'll do my best to megaphone it. (Though maybe not to the politicians, they would misinterpret it , and I think your message is for internal consumption)

As long as you leave it till the end and we need something soporific to send us to beddy byes.

[Ixion]

Gladly Les, but as you can see I live in Auckland.
President BRONZ Taupo (Nomads). Temporary Appointment (Expired)
But seriously would love to be involved more, any ideas?

The proposal was to Mr Katman, who lives in Taupo (I believe)