Hampton Downs: is there an issue?

[gixerracer]

Really,So you didnt crash the first GSXR750 you raced there after fitting Simon Turners derestricted gear shift sensor ???

Not down the front no, it was after the second hump doqn the back i run wide at the kink and crashed ended up at the hairpin with bike on top of me:facepalm:

[Tony.OK]

So hows this corner different to the "dangerous" corner at Puke that so many say is a death trap? Or is it just a newer version of the same?

Just curious :blink:

[Quasievil]

So hows this corner different to the "dangerous" corner at Puke that so many say is a death trap? Or is it just a newer version of the same?

Just curious :blink:

Its the same, Puke is another track with stupid walls to close to it

[DEATH_INC.]

So hows this corner different to the "dangerous" corner at Puke that so many say is a death trap? Or is it just a newer version of the same?

Just curious :blink:
It's a fair bit different (I'm assuming you're talking about the 'hill' at puke?) but all too much the same. Have you not ridden hampton Tony?
For those that haven't, you crest the hill on the front 'straight' at 220-230ish kph over this 'hump' which will get a superbike/fast 600 airborn a few inches, at least the front will come up, then the track has a light/medium r/h turn that you take flat out (4th/5th gear on the 10) around 250kph?- but there is no runoff to the concrete wall on the outside.
At Puke, the corner is on the crest of a small hill you come over it at (3rd gear) 160ish kph? (someone can correct me here, I've only done puke once...) at full lean (knee on the ground etc) again, almost no runoff to the armco barrier.

How's that sound to you guys?
The speeds are my best guess, I don't really ride around looking at the speedo....

[DEATH_INC.]

I think the difference is that it's fairly easy to crash at puke pushing it around the corner, but at hampton you'd have to be pushing pretty hard for the actual corner to be a problem.

[Kickaha]

So hows this corner different to the "dangerous" corner at Puke that so many say is a death trap?

The entry speed is faster




How's that sound to you guys?

Pretty accurate

Although on the sidecar for some reason Puke gives me the shits while Hampton Downs doesn't bother me

[cowboyz]

Well then the same argument applies to the IOM, Irish road racing, Wanganui and Paeroa to name a few.

did I miss something or is HD (the purpose built racetrack) now liken to street circuits?

[slowpoke]

Edit: shoulda kept my gob shut.

[BoristheBiter]

As just a part of the equation of track safety how about having the bike setup so that its chassis is only minimally disturbed by that hump? Plenty of Superbikes have traversed that hump without too much chassis aggravation.
Im not justifying the hump or any intrasigence to either remove it etc but it seems to be overlooked that chassis setup may have been a mitigating factor of no insignificance.
Just last night at HD I readjusted the rear suspension of a trackday bike that had been maladjusted by a former racer who should have known better. Had it been ridden at race pace over that hump it too would have got into a tankslapper.
How many accidents are caused or majorly contributed to by badly setup bikes?

All talk of racing and bike set up is all well and good but what you all fail to see is that this and other tracks are used by road riders on road bikes learning to better there skill and therefore will push themselves and their bikes past what they are able to responed to when something goes wrong.

Yes it is good to get your bike set up correctly, mine was set up at puky and handles so much better even on the road but at full noise (well my full noise) the bike still comes up at HD so because of that i am never flat out.

in light of what happened i am glad that i have a new bike that can handle these sorts of things without to much input from myself as the first time i put the front wheel up i crapped myself and dropped the throttle, wrong i know but as i am new and have never had my front come up like that it and it was the natural thing for me to do.

If they are not going to fix the hump/walll/fence then a safer solution will have to be found and until then i will not be back at HD and yes i know some of you like this track and i can see why but our safety is praramount and there is only one way they will listen.

[FROSTY]

So hows this corner different to the "dangerous" corner at Puke that so many say is a death trap? Or is it just a newer version of the same?

Just curious :blink:
I think the difference is that pukie is a very old track and I must say in its defence that the wall you hit at Pukie is not trackside and as Death said you are going slower. I have seen on several occassions riders stuff it up and run onto the grass trackside there. One guy that stuck in my memory "rode" alongside the track on his 600 as far as the track crossing before he was able to get the bike off the grass.
I suspect the brown marks he left in the dirt trackside were mirrored in his jockeys.
The point?? There is a margin for error at pukie--not big (about 2.4m) but it is there.
However on the S/ fin line its armco and you will recall that someone died as a result of getting pinned between his sidecar and that wall.
HD is a new facility. If compareing it to any track in NZ the most current one is Taupo.

[Robert Taylor]

did I miss something or is HD (the purpose built racetrack) now liken to street circuits?

No I was in no way drawing a comparison in those terms. I just found an irony in a suggestion that the track should be shut pending any possible alterations etc when the street circuits that I made mention of have over the years created an awful number of injuries and fatalities.

[woodyracer]

key-board cowboys....

Hamptons is safe, puke is not.........:facepalm:

if you want every track in NZ to be as bland as manfeild i suggest you make the winter series your own little safe haven, and leave us to enjoy the interesting world class race circuit...

[Quasievil]

and leave us to enjoy the interesting world class race circuit...

:facepalm:Oh, so you havent travelled then

[FROSTY]

key-board cowboys....

Hamptons is safe, puke is not.........:facepalm:

if you want every track in NZ to be as bland as manfeild i suggest you make the winter series your own little safe haven, and leave us to enjoy the interesting world class race circuit...
I'd suggest you look CLOSELY at those who are showing concern.Billy for example has been DIRECTLY involved in the racing scene for about three times as long as you have been alive. When somebody with that experience level shows concern then I'd suggest its time to pay attention.
Or Shaun --I guess he wouldn't have a clue either.
I myself have been racing and involved in organising trackdays/race meetings since I was your age.
Thats three people Who are concerned and are/have been involed in the scene for many years --so not keyboard cowboys at all.
Incidenty would YOU want to be COC at a meeeting where there was a DEADLY issue with part of the track ? I believe someone narrowly avoided jail in a situation similar (the bicycling event organiiser)
Nobody wants a bland /boring track. Show me one place where anyone is suggesting it become so,

[MSTRS]

...
Nobody wants a bland /boring track....

Fuck no. We want excitement. We want crashes. We want the illusion of real danger.
We don't want deaths tho...

[cowboyz]

Fuck no. We want excitement. We want crashes. We want the illusion of real danger.
We don't want deaths tho...

exactly.. did he miss my post on what I think makes a superb racetrack.. You need the appearance of danger while maintaining a safety margin for when it all goes wrong. there are basically 2 pinanicle scenerios that everyone loves to see.

1. a group racers going hell for leather and positions changing on the last lap
2. a group of racers going nuts on it till someone screws it up and goes sliding down the track (without getting injured)

Having an obsticle where thoughts in racers heads are diverted from going as fast they can.. to going as fast as they can without killing themselves is a shift that the sport can do without

[cowboyz]

No I was in no way drawing a comparison in those terms. I just found an irony in a suggestion that the track should be shut pending any possible alterations etc when the street circuits that I made mention of have over the years created an awful number of injuries and fatalities.

TBH.. I kinda surprised IOM is still running. but it has a special flavour about it. Something that cant.. and shouldnt be recreated in a purpose built racetrack.

I take your point though.. I dont think it needs to be a throw the baby out with the bath water scenario... I just think it needs to not be ignored.

[woodyracer]

I'd suggest you look CLOSELY at those who are showing concern.Billy for example has been DIRECTLY involved in the racing scene for about three times as long as you have been alive. When somebody with that experience level shows concern then I'd suggest its time to pay attention.
Or Shaun --I guess he wouldn't have a clue either.
I myself have been racing and involved in organising trackdays/race meetings since I was your age.
Thats three people Who are concerned and are/have been involed in the scene for many years --so not keyboard cowboys at all.
Incidenty would YOU want to be COC at a meeeting where there was a DEADLY issue with part of the track ? I believe someone narrowly avoided jail in a situation similar (the bicycling event organiiser)
Nobody wants a bland /boring track. Show me one place where anyone is suggesting it become so,

i think you have miss read what i have said, i have alot to to do with billy and i know he knows what hes talking about... i wasnt directing those comments at them but to people saying hampton is as dangerous as puke!..because my opinion is its not.

Im not simply saying that Shaun and billy dont know what their talking about buddy......im just putting in what i think. So dont jump around using my age as a disadvantage because that is just too easy! :yes:

[gixerracer]

i think you have miss read what i have said, i have alot to to do with billy and i know he knows what hes talking about... i wasnt directing those comments at them but to people saying hampton is as dangerous as puke!..because my opinion is its not.

Im not simply saying that Shaun and billy dont know what their talking about buddy......im just putting in what i think. So dont jump around using my age as a disadvantage because that is just too easy! :yes:

Try racing a 200hp superbike round there at nearly 300kph you may change your mind pretty fast, it does not have as many dangerous parts as puke but the main straight at Hampton is every bit as dangerous as anything pukekohe has to offer

[BoristheBiter]

key-board cowboys....

Hamptons is safe, puke is not.........:facepalm:

if you want every track in NZ to be as bland as manfeild i suggest you make the winter series your own little safe haven, and leave us to enjoy the interesting world class race circuit...

you need a faster bike by the sounds of it.

[DEATH_INC.]

if you want every track in NZ to be as bland as manfeild i suggest you make the winter series your own little safe haven, and leave us to enjoy the interesting world class race circuit...
Lol, minefeild boring! Try running at a decent pace then.
And hampton being world class is nearly as funny. Maybe when it's finished....

[merv]

I suppose its not designed for it, but would it work better in reverse direction?

[Gremlin]

I suppose its not designed for it, but would it work better in reverse direction?
Already been discussed... but no, not really. Looking in reverse, you'd still have that hump (don't know how a bike would respond), zero run off, the (now) long left hander sweeper has zero run off at the end, and the same with the last couple of turns.

[woodyracer]

Lol, minefeild boring! Try running at a decent pace then.
And hampton being world class is nearly as funny. Maybe when it's finished....

ahahhaha 1:30 lap around manfeild on a streetstock bike is decent pace then? i think sooo....i do find it boring, ive ridden taupo,puke,hampton, manfeild alot... i dont like it. Niether to do other people, mostly because its used to much.

Hampton is world class, i know you've traveled the world and been on every track, but lets just not bragg ey?

[Quasievil]

Hampton is world class, i know you've traveled the world and been on every track, but lets just not bragg ey?

How do you define world class ?
I would define it as being suitable for world class event, GP WSBK F1 etc

[k14]

Hampton is world class, i know you've traveled the world and been on every track, but lets just not bragg ey?
Hampton is not world class if a pretty basic design flaw can kill someone. For a start a world class track wouldn't be designed with a start/finish line in the braking zone. Having a concrete gauntlet like they have would immediately count out any world class events coming to the track. I have raced at Philip Island, now that is a world class track. I don't see any areas where the rider could come round a corner and go straight into an unshielded concrete wall.

[CHOPPA]

How do you define world class ?
I would define it as being suitable for world class event, GP WSBK F1 etc

Yeah same.... F1 cars can pit in the gravel and do 30 sec laps :woohoo:

[woodyracer]

Hampton is not world class if a pretty basic design flaw can kill someone. For a start a world class track wouldn't be designed with a start/finish line in the braking zone. Having a concrete gauntlet like they have would immediately count out any world class events coming to the track. I have raced at Philip Island, now that is a world class track. I don't see any areas where the rider could come round a corner and go straight into an unshielded concrete wall.

ummm wens the last time you went there sweetheart? ahhahhaha.....you probualy over looked it, but they moved the start finish line back quite a long time ago..

The thing is, when i was doing the superbike school, steve {owns the company} said he has personaly seen the letter from WSBK to the people at HD..and yes when the track is finished it will be able to hold the event as hold as some major sponsorship is involved. Im not making this up..ask him yourself


in the end Your entitled to your own opinion... You are right its abit small at the moment, but it stil beats puke!!

[k14]

ummm wens the last time you went there sweetheart? ahhahhaha.....you probualy over looked it, but they moved the start finish line back quite a long time ago..

The thing is, when i was doing the superbike school, steve {owns the company} said he has personaly seen the letter from WSBK to the people at HD..and yes when the track is finished it will be able to hold the event as hold as some major sponsorship is involved. Im not making this up..ask him yourself


in the end Your entitled to your own opinion... You are right its abit small at the moment, but it stil beats puke!!
You really need to loose your smartarse attitude, it is doing you no help at all. Learning proper english would help too :facepalm:

I know the start/finish line has been moved, that wasn't my point. It was that they couldn't even figure out that it would create a problem when the track was designed. If the designers were that incompetent it is just as likely they overlooked the crest and concrete wall problem too.

[woodyracer]

You really need to loose your smartarse attitude, it is doing you no help at all. Learning proper english would help too :facepalm:

I know the start/finish line has been moved, that wasn't my point. It was that they couldn't even figure out that it would create a problem when the track was designed. If the designers were that incompetent it is just as likely they overlooked the crest and concrete wall problem too.

Na i quite like my smartass attitude, it is doing me help actauly, people have come up to me at race meetings before and shaked my hand, because my humour on here has made their day better :yes:


You do raise a good point there though, it realy does seem like the track was designed for those car guys!!! Maybe now after a horrible fatality they will double check their errors!

[White trash]

You do raise a good point there though, it realy does seem like the track was designed for those car guys!!! Maybe now after a horrible fatality they will double check their errors!

So....a couple of hours ago, you said there'sno problem, we're all cry babies and we should piss off so you "real racers" could get on with riding there. Now there's an error that cost a life?

Which is it Max?

If the same tradgedy should ever happen again, and should the worst ever happen to your good self, I'll be sure to point your mum and dad to this thread so they can find some solace and closure.

[woodyracer]

So....a couple of hours ago, you said there'sno problem, we're all cry babies and we should piss off so you "real racers" could get on with riding there. Now there's an error that cost a life?

Which is it Max?

If the same tradgedy should ever happen again, and should the worst ever happen to your good self, I'll be sure to point your mum and dad to this thread so they can find some solace and closure.


Carm down trashy, im abit un chosen now tbh..., on one had its a great track, but on the other hand its a construction site.... see what i mean?

Stop trying to bring out im a little kid? do you perosnaly know me? no...

[roadracingoldfart]

Carm down trashy, im abit un chosen now tbh..., on one had its a great track, but on the other hand its a construction site.... see what i mean?

Stop trying to bring out im a little kid? do you perosnaly know me? no...

I dont know you either and i rarely calm down when told to as well.
The fact i dont know you wont take away the fact your comments are very inaccurate and i can say that as i am well known , as a bastard. Wanna compare C.Vs ?

Paul.

[White trash]

Carm down trashy, im abit un chosen now tbh..., on one had its a great track, but on the other hand its a construction site.... see what i mean?

Stop trying to bring out im a little kid? do you perosnaly know me? no...

No Max, I don't know you. And I'm not trying to bring anyone out as a "liitle kid" as you put. I'd hate to have to tell any racers parents their son had died at a spot that a whole lot of experienced racers had earlier pointed out issue with.

What you're doing is putting yourself accross as an arrogant little upstart who thinks he knows it all because he's done a couple of laps of 3 tracks.

Your oppinion is as valid as anyone elses, however please try to refrain from thinking its above all others as that just implies you're the inexperienced,"can't tell me anything" teenage high school student that you actually are.

[woodyracer]

No Max, I don't know you. And I'm not trying to bring anyone out as a "liitle kid" as you put. I'd hate to have to tell any racers parents their son had died at a spot that a whole lot of experienced racers had earlier pointed out issue with.

What you're doing is putting yourself accross as an arrogant little upstart who thinks he knows it all because he's done a couple of laps of 3 tracks.

Your oppinion is as valid as anyone elses, however please try to refrain from thinking its above all others as that just implies you're the inexperienced,"can't tell me anything" teenage high school student that you actually are.

4 tracks that is :yes:..

But yes trashy it was very tragic, after meeting the rider afew weeks earlier and racing against him......it was specialy horrible to find out that he was killed.

So before i change my opinion again {:facepalm: aha } i do think hampton downs need to make sure they have made sure the track is as safe as they can make it!

[Robert Taylor]

It's a fair bit different (I'm assuming you're talking about the 'hill' at puke?) but all too much the same. Have you not ridden hampton Tony?
For those that haven't, you crest the hill on the front 'straight' at 220-230ish kph over this 'hump' which will get a superbike/fast 600 airborn a few inches, at least the front will come up, then the track has a light/medium r/h turn that you take flat out (4th/5th gear on the 10) around 250kph?- but there is no runoff to the concrete wall on the outside.
At Puke, the corner is on the crest of a small hill you come over it at (3rd gear) 160ish kph? (someone can correct me here, I've only done puke once...) at full lean (knee on the ground etc) again, almost no runoff to the armco barrier.

How's that sound to you guys?
The speeds are my best guess, I don't really ride around looking at the speedo....

Something akin to that yes. The dynamics are the bike is still tavelling upwards as the rider accelerates over the crest of the hill, but the track is falling away downwards. A few metres before that the bike is ''planting'' itself into the ''upramp'' of the hill and compressing its suspension. The calibration of the suspension has to resist too much compression but also allow enough and to do it in a balanced way.
Now people forget that suspension works in both directions, as the bike travels over that hill and the road drops away its a little akin to ''skating on ice''. The rebound setting has to be fast enough that the tyre finds the track as quickly as possible, but also not so quick that it causes instability on other parts of the track. THERE IS MORE TRACTION ON TARMAC THAN THERE IS IN AIR!!!
The dynamics of travelling up that hill at HD approaching the pit straight will in many ways be similiar. I have suggested in other threads and many conversations that over-slow rebound is arguably one of the biggest contributors to crashing. Over slow rebound takes away traction.

[DEATH_INC.]

Hampton is world class, i know you've traveled the world and been on every track, but lets just not bragg ey?
No, it isn't.
And You don't know what I've done. But this isn't about me. or you. it's about the track.

[BoristheBiter]

4 tracks that is :yes:..

But yes trashy it was very tragic, after meeting the rider afew weeks earlier and racing against him......it was specialy horrible to find out that he was killed.

So before i change my opinion again {:facepalm: aha } i do think hampton downs need to make sure they have made sure the track is as safe as they can make it!


but there is noththing wrong with it right:facepalm:

[Robert Taylor]

All talk of racing and bike set up is all well and good but what you all fail to see is that this and other tracks are used by road riders on road bikes learning to better there skill and therefore will push themselves and their bikes past what they are able to responed to when something goes wrong.

Yes it is good to get your bike set up correctly, mine was set up at puky and handles so much better even on the road but at full noise (well my full noise) the bike still comes up at HD so because of that i am never flat out.

in light of what happened i am glad that i have a new bike that can handle these sorts of things without to much input from myself as the first time i put the front wheel up i crapped myself and dropped the throttle, wrong i know but as i am new and have never had my front come up like that it and it was the natural thing for me to do.

If they are not going to fix the hump/walll/fence then a safer solution will have to be found and until then i will not be back at HD and yes i know some of you like this track and i can see why but our safety is praramount and there is only one way they will listen.

I think that irrespective there is a broad consensus that the hump and the wall are deserving of attention but there is no doubt that for other reasons the crash was avoidable.

With all respect Im not failing to understand the diversity of riders etc. Talking about road race and set up is 100% all well and good as our time in it ( 25 years and counting ) has given us a lot of understanding and that also relates to our major customer base, everyday road riders who are seeking more suspension compliance on our bumpy roads but also with enhanced chassis stability. Plus road riders who are getting involved in trackdays.

I just shake my head at the antics of a trade competitor who has done all but 2 days of formal training of part of a Race Tech course. To try and earn ''bragging capital'' my company has been mocked for pulling racebike suspension apart very very often at race meetings. But what is not understood is that often we are testing development parts for Ohlins, who we have a very special relationship with. And we are not averse neither lazy in pulling stuff apart often to seek better settings as there is always scope to improve and push the boundaries. In concert with the inside information we get from Ohlins as their exclusive NZ distributor what we learn is invaluable. Not only for the Ohlins product but it also assists markedly with setting up oem suspension. We dont claim to know everything but long experience and full and ongoing factory training sure helps.

Not everyone can afford top shelf pedigree brand suspension of even upgrade piston kits but its VERY IMPORTANT that with the oem stuff the settings are as best as they can be for the given situation. Check out my immediate last post, such a scenario of over slow rebound is something we find all the time and really highlights the dangers of maladjustment.

Buying a new bike / latest model is also absolutely no guarantee that suspension woes are expunged. Although you may not realise it yet the high speed rebound valving in the front forks of your GSXR is too weak and at elevated track speeds ( that you may attain as you get more confident ) it causes the bike to ''stand up'' mid corner and run wide on corner exit after you have released the brakes and powered on. Closing in the rebound adjusters at the top ''fudges it'' but then makes the low speed rebound too slow at the last 10% or so of re-extension. That takes away edge grip as you accelerate off the turn. No intention to take the wind out of your sails but this is not only a raceteack scenario, internal recalibration of the shim stack improves the bike on road as well. More compliance, more grip, more control. For clarification on just how well this mod works check out historic threads about it in the suspension section.

The real thing that scares me is we now have bikes that are sharper in steering, have more power and have wider grippier tyres that put a lot more energy into their suspension. I did a motorcycle engineering apprenticeship in the 70s so am abundantly familiar about what was taught about suspension coming up 40 years ago. It has changed little since and I am familiar with the new syllabus, being part of an industry group that oversees it. Commercial reasons or ''advantage'' should dictate that I keep my trap shut about it but in reality things have got to change because frankly the understanding of bike setup at dealer level ( as a whole ) is deplorably bad. There are a few good guys, few being the operative word. And Ill get vilified for saying so, having an ex racer set up your bike is also no guarantee of a good job because in reality very few have a good enough understanding of suspension dynamics beyond rudimentary external clicker and preload settings( it kinda helps! ) The bike that I found to have overslow rebound was ''set up'' by a high profile ex racer from the 80s, a time when there were no adjustments available to speak of.

For any rider we have available a suspension setup and troubleshooting booklet, transmittable by e-mail. Its not a copy of ''War and Peace'' but gives information on cause and effect. We are also available at anytime to answer questions / issues re setup and contrary to some deliberately perpetuated misconceptions we are not there to sell everybody Ohlins suspension come hell or high water. We will help anybody, irrespective of suspension brand fitted.

One thing is for sure, the industry needs to improve immensely in this respect. Another post suggested that Hampton Downs should be shut down until the situation with the hump was sorted, but that it wont happen because its all about earning money. In line with the same thinking how many badly setup bikes have been ridden around on that circuit because the selling dealer wasnt prepared to invest money in having training in the skills of proper bike setup??? Etc etc

Food for thought........

[DEATH_INC.]

I think that irrespective there is a broad consensus that the hump and the wall are deserving of attention but there is no doubt that for other reasons the crash was avoidable.

With all respect Im not failing to understand the diversity of riders etc. Talking about road race and set up is 100% all well and good as our time in it ( 25 years and counting ) has given us a lot of understanding etc...

Not having a go at ya Robert, in fact I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think the track is the real issue rather than suspension issues. Despite what was hopefully a one-off accident, the potential for another at the same place remains. Imagine a group of racers dicing for places coming into that corner....a bit of fairing banging could easily end in the same result. Even without the hump. Even worse if it's wet. Or just a simple mistake. It really needs to be fixed/sorted.

[Robert Taylor]

Not having a go at ya Robert, in fact I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think the track is the real issue rather than suspension issues. Despite what was hopefully a one-off accident, the potential for another at the same place remains. Imagine a group of racers dicing for places coming into that corner....a bit of fairing banging could easily end in the same result. Even without the hump. Even worse if it's wet. Or just a simple mistake. It really needs to be fixed/sorted.

Both are issues, agreed.Im not in any way trying to take blame away from the proximity of the wall to bikes that veer off line but am just highlighting why bikes can do such things as veer off line. Indeed the design of the circuit probably pays more ''respect'' to the car racing fraternity who generally come off a lot better if they make contact with closely displaced walls.

As an adjunct to what I have rattled off in my last post we have talked internally about HD for well over a year. We are not surprised ( for example ) that many riders who have previously spent a lot of time riding at Pukekohe ( then the only track in the greater Auckland area ) have found a whole new raft of machine setup and rapid tyre degradation issues at HD. Pukekohe generally requires a very soft and compliant setup to ride the bumps and is generally also very kind on tyres and will not overly challenge the limitations of oem suspension. Take a bike to HD that feels great at Pukekohe and ride it at speed. It will be a wobbly jelly that screws its tyres very quickly.

The above reasoning and subsequent proof of such assertions is exactly why I went into battle with the ex CEO of MNZ who just didnt get it.

Similarly so for taking a bike off the road and riding at Pukekohe, it was do-able with not too much drama. Now this new circuit with elevation changes and a grippy surface is a whole lot less forgiving of setup that is maladjusted for it.............

The stakes are now higher in machine setup issues and all those involved have to lift their game.

[10bikekid]

Not wanting to interrupt , but Its been suggested that HD is being circulated in the opposite direction to which it was designed, which would make sense considering the pit entrance and exits being opposite to what they should be, (90deg wall on main straight a big no no)

PS, if you back of on the hump that would be bad also.
My Aprilia lifts the front while still being cranked over at about 180- 200kph but I wouldn't dare back off and load up it up on touch down

[Kickaha]

(90deg wall on main straight a big no no)


What 90deg wall?

[CHOPPA]

What 90deg wall?

On the pit entrance, if you turned the corner to tight or got squeezed to the inside you would hit the wall. Sorta the same at manfield if you went wide

[10bikekid]

On the pit entrance, if you turned the corner to tight or got squeezed to the inside you would hit the wall. Sorta the same at manfield if you went wide

At 200 plus Ks :shutup: Crazy Youd what strong forks to take that

[Brett]

Both are issues, agreed.Im not in any way trying to take blame away from the proximity of the wall to bikes that veer off line but am just highlighting why bikes can do such things as veer off line. Indeed the design of the circuit probably pays more ''respect'' to the car racing fraternity who generally come off a lot better if they make contact with closely displaced walls.

As an adjunct to what I have rattled off in my last post we have talked internally about HD for well over a year. We are not surprised ( for example ) that many riders who have previously spent a lot of time riding at Pukekohe ( then the only track in the greater Auckland area ) have found a whole new raft of machine setup and rapid tyre degradation issues at HD. Pukekohe generally requires a very soft and compliant setup to ride the bumps and is generally also very kind on tyres and will not overly challenge the limitations of oem suspension. Take a bike to HD that feels great at Pukekohe and ride it at speed. It will be a wobbly jelly that screws its tyres very quickly.

The above reasoning and subsequent proof of such assertions is exactly why I went into battle with the ex CEO of MNZ who just didnt get it.

Similarly so for taking a bike off the road and riding at Pukekohe, it was do-able with not too much drama. Now this new circuit with elevation changes and a grippy surface is a whole lot less forgiving of setup that is maladjusted for it.............

The stakes are now higher in machine setup issues and all those involved have to lift their game.

I hear what you are saying Robert. I suppose the question that I would have as a track-day-lover who likes to ride at a quick pace on track but is still predominantly a road rider is whether it is possible to set a bike up well enough to do a reasonable job around the likes of HD and still be a decent bike on the road. I suppose this question is somewhat like the proverbial length of string; can't account for all situations.
My view is simply that I want to go fast and smoothly on the track and have a bit of fun in the twisty stuff on some of the bits of road I enjoy riding, that is I am not a racer and don't really care about shaving 'x' tenths of a second off my time and I am not a road racer, but I want the bike to have feeling and stability.
Or would setting a bike up to be decent on the likes of HD be to the detriment of its road riding feel? (Without throwing thousands of dollars worth of gear on the thing)
I found that the bike could work well on Pukekohe and the road which would agree with your comments about it being a less demanding track.

[BoristheBiter]

I think that irrespective there is a broad consensus that the hump and the wall are deserving of attention but there is no doubt that for other reasons the crash was avoidable.


One thing is for sure, the industry needs to improve immensely in this respect. Another post suggested that Hampton Downs should be shut down until the situation with the hump was sorted, but that it wont happen because its all about earning money. In line with the same thinking how many badly setup bikes have been ridden around on that circuit because the selling dealer wasnt prepared to invest money in having training in the skills of proper bike setup??? Etc etc

Food for thought........

Ummm like thanks for that, so off topic but thanks anyway.

As brett says you set your bike up for HD then have to change it again for on the road then again for Puky then for the road then for Taupo then for the road just to take off 2 sec a lap that i don't care about.

This thread is about what happened to a rider that had problems while riding around a supposedly world class track and if it is safe to ride.

While i understand what you are meaning and it may or may not have been the reason he came off, it is more on what happend after and no setup in the world will protect you from that.

[Robert Taylor]

I hear what you are saying Robert. I suppose the question that I would have as a track-day-lover who likes to ride at a quick pace on track but is still predominantly a road rider is whether it is possible to set a bike up well enough to do a reasonable job around the likes of HD and still be a decent bike on the road. I suppose this question is somewhat like the proverbial length of string; can't account for all situations.
My view is simply that I want to go fast and smoothly on the track and have a bit of fun in the twisty stuff on some of the bits of road I enjoy riding, that is I am not a racer and don't really care about shaving 'x' tenths of a second off my time and I am not a road racer, but I want the bike to have feeling and stability.
Or would setting a bike up to be decent on the likes of HD be to the detriment of its road riding feel? (Without throwing thousands of dollars worth of gear on the thing)
I found that the bike could work well on Pukekohe and the road which would agree with your comments about it being a less demanding track.

Yes youve pretty much nailed the reasonable expectations of many track day riders who also use their bike to ride on the road.

Its all about understanding the suspension adjustments available on the machine and using them to advantage for given situations. Maladjustment is my biggest fear, especially slowing down rebound too much, the biggest common mistake we find. And I believe a big cause of crashing.

Of course there are limitations with many oem suspension units but its all about optimising what you have and recognising the limits. If you get more serious then there are levels of upgrade available from respringing ( often very neccessary with a wide variance of rider heights and weights ) through to reworking the stock internals with different valving and / or piston kits through to complete replacement.

Most often such mods can have as much benefit on the road as well. We often hear ''Im not fast enough for an Ohlins'' ( or whatever other top shelf pedigree brand ) Thats a huge misconception when in fact the best part of our customer base are everyday road riders who are looking for suspension that will actually absorb bumps on our high ratio of bumpy and challenging roads, but still with superb chassis and pitch control.

Whatever, the industry needs to do more to educate customers about the importance of well adjusted suspension or more to the point the very real dangers of very badly adjusted suspension. If we dont there will be more central Government regulation in our lives.

[Robert Taylor]

Ummm like thanks for that, so off topic but thanks anyway.

As brett says you set your bike up for HD then have to change it again for on the road then again for Puky then for the road then for Taupo then for the road just to take off 2 sec a lap that i don't care about.

This thread is about what happened to a rider that had problems while riding around a supposedly world class track and if it is safe to ride.

While i understand what you are meaning and it may or may not have been the reason he came off, it is more on what happend after and no setup in the world will protect you from that.

No, its all totally relevant and its not just about lap times. To my mind this is also about what set off the accident, a not unrelevant point

[Robert Taylor]

Not wanting to interrupt , but Its been suggested that HD is being circulated in the opposite direction to which it was designed, which would make sense considering the pit entrance and exits being opposite to what they should be, (90deg wall on main straight a big no no)

PS, if you back of on the hump that would be bad also.
My Aprilia lifts the front while still being cranked over at about 180- 200kph but I wouldn't dare back off and load up it up on touch down

Its lifting the front wheel ( in part ) because there is not enough low speed compression squat control in the rear shock. Or your personal stats may not match the fitted spring rate.

[BoristheBiter]

No, its all totally relevant and its not just about lap times. To my mind this is also about what set off the accident, a not unrelevant point

So basicl what you are saying is there is nothing wrong with HD it was his suspension?

[FROSTY]

No, its all totally relevant and its not just about lap times. To my mind this is also about what set off the accident, a not unrelevant point
Robert I 100% agree with what you are saying RIGHT UP TO THE POINT HE/HIS BIKE HIT SOMETHING SOLID.
This has been discussed round and round in circles. Bad suspenders,a big drop off,slippery patches on the track surface,rider error even potholes can, have, and will continue to contribute to crashes all round NZ. Hey thats what I concider acceptable risk.
Hitting something hard (thats a permenant fixture) that will badly injure or kill you if you combine one or more of the above factors That I don't concider acceptable risk.
The catchcry of trackday companies is "Practice your skills in a SAFE controlled enviroment." Which I why I for one have never run a trackday at Pukie. AMCC for their ART days were and are aware of the safety issues and by using safety bales have reduced the risk in key safety areas to an acceptable level.
I hope from this tragedy HD will do the same.

[Robert Taylor]

So basicl what you are saying is there is nothing wrong with HD it was his suspension?

Read my posts again. I am in agreeance that the wall is in a bad place. But all of the blame for the accident itself should not be against the track itself.

[Shaun]

Read my posts again. I am in agreeance that the wall is in a bad place. But all of the blame for the accident itself should not be against the track itself.



YES it should, the fuckin concrete wall killed him.

Please carry on with your sales pitches now

[BoristheBiter]

Read my posts again. I am in agreeance that the wall is in a bad place. But all of the blame for the accident itself should not be against the track itself.

As frosty said above

"This has been discussed round and round in circles. Bad suspenders,a big drop off,slippery patches on the track surface,rider error even potholes can, have, and will continue to contribute to crashes all round NZ. Hey thats what I concider acceptable risk.
Hitting something hard (thats a permenant fixture) that will badly injure or kill you if you combine one or more of the above factors That I don't concider acceptable risk."

You are right, the blame for the accident should not be just the fault of the track as as discussed there are many variables to why we crash, the outcome however is a completely different topic and does lie IMHO completely at the feet of HD.

[MSTRS]

YES it should, the fuckin concrete wall killed him.

Please carry on with your sales pitches now

That's a bit harsh. Although essentially on the money.
The rider's crash was caused by a number of combining factors - aren't they all? Change any one of those factors and the crash may not have happened.
The factor in his death, though, is 100% down to the placement of that wall.

[Mort]

YES it should, the fuckin concrete wall killed him.

Please carry on with your sales pitches now

Whilst I'm inclined to say the track is more to blame than the bike (and I think Robert agrees there) his contribution to this discussion is very valid and informative and valued (by me at least).

I don't think there's a hope in hell that wall will be moved but there are other strategies such as slowing the approach to the section (which is feasible) - any thoughts on that ?

[Shaun]

That's a bit harsh. Although essentially on the money.
The rider's crash was caused by a number of combining factors - aren't they all? Change any one of those factors and the crash may not have happened.
The factor in his death, though, is 100% down to the placement of that wall.

Reality can be harsh

[FROSTY]

Ok Guys I've hinted here but lets be clear. I think you will find that the official report will show It was NOT the wall itself that killed him.
Perhaps the wall isn't ideally placed --Ok it is NOT anywhere near ideally placed.
But again look at the S/F straight of tracks worldwide
The best/most recent example has to be Taupo
What killed the poor guy was the brackets on the wall.
Have a look at the pictures of that section of track.
They are ugly and deadly and will (did) cause instant 200km/k to zero deceleration.
I bet any amount of money said brackets are being moved as we speak.

Rather than a poo fight I'd like to suggest using the combined milenia of experience and bright eyed bushy tailed newbees to offer practical solutions.
Robert has highlighted a risk reduction comment---(sort ya suspenders) but what about the other ways to reduce the risk of a repeat??
I bet any amount of money that track day organisers,Race clubs and track management would really apreciate ways to prevent the problem comeing back.
Personally I feel running bikes in reverse with one section of T barrier (concrete) moved back onto the new track would help

[MSTRS]

Brackets? Why the hell would anyone have a wall like that with shit sticking out from it?

[Robert Taylor]

The police and coroners investigation will focus not only on the wall and the tragic end result but also what set off the chain of events.

[BoristheBiter]

The police and coroners investigation will focus not only on the wall and the tragic end result but also what set off the chain of events.


Well i would say the hump as that would have started it all off.

[MSTRS]

Well i would say the hump as that would have started it all off.

Nope. It started with the rider's speed.

[Mort]

... is it the bike ? Is it the hump ? Is it the wall ? or is it the fact that 200kph+ through that section is bound to end one way if there is any kind of a problem which causes the bike & rider to crash.

That is not to say that the riders speed is the problem.... that would be a cop out. Riders will ride at the maximum speed allowed by the track... thats the whole point of course.

[DEATH_INC.]

Nope, it started by riding one of those dangerous two wheeled contraptions.
The easy cure for the time being for the track is simple, it's more than wide enough to make a chicane near the top of the hill with bales.

[BoristheBiter]

Nope. It started with the rider's speed.

It started with him getting on the bike, if he didn't do that he wouldn't have crashed.

[MSTRS]

I was being flippant...
For the rider, there are a number of things that lead to the crash. None on their own necessarily being significant problems. But in the particular combination that day, at that spot...perhaps a crash was inevitable.
The easiest thing of all to change, is the speed at that point.
Death's chicane sounds like a good idea.
Protecting the wall/ensuring it has no projections is also a must.

[BoristheBiter]

I was being flippant...
.

I had got that and so was I.

[Mort]

Death's chicane sounds like a good idea.

*cough* actually it was my idea first (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/113858-Hampton-Downs-is-there-an-issue?p=1129903885#post1129903885)

:yes:

[Robert Taylor]

Well i would say the hump as that would have started it all off.

It was a combination of factors, I think I just may have a lot more info on this than you realise

[BoristheBiter]

It was a combination of factors, I think I just may have a lot more info on this than you realise

yes i guess you proberly do but not as much as you think.

[woodyracer]

*cough* actually it was my idea first (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/113858-Hampton-Downs-is-there-an-issue?p=1129903885#post1129903885)

:yes:

ahahahaa true that:shit:

[gixerracer]

It was a combination of factors, I think I just may have a lot more info on this than you realise

shut up robert your a dick:facepalm::yes:

[FROSTY]

Actually what is funny (ironic not ha ha) is that in 2 other sports I'm involved in we are discussing exactly this senario. Its about risk management. Lots of factors involved that if the stars alighn right and the combination of factors comes up somebody dies. Remove any one or more of the factors and the person has a bit of a fright or an expensive day but is still alive preferably unhurt and their gear/vehicle undamaged
SO what can be done in the real world to reduce the risk in THIS senario??
NOT ride ??--clearly not an option anyonereally wants to concider.

Why is this so important? why worry??
Theres a round of the AMCC club series coming up pretty soon. Will COC accept the track without risk reduction strategies in place??
Last round of the nationals is gonna be early next year. Will it be at HD or will AMCC concider the risk of injury too great?
If I was a track day organiser I'd be very nervous about HD for fear of a repeat.
So this is an opertunity for KB to actually do some good.

[codgyoleracer]

shut up robert your a dick:facepalm::yes:

You could at least have the manners to say he's a big dick....... :-)

[codgyoleracer]

Actually what is funny (ironic not ha ha) is that in 2 other sports I'm involved in we are discussing exactly this senario. Its about risk management. Lots of factors involved that if the stars alighn right and the combination of factors comes up somebody dies. Remove any one or more of the factors and the person has a bit of a fright or an expensive day but is still alive preferably unhurt and their gear/vehicle undamaged
SO what can be done in the real world to reduce the risk in THIS senario??
NOT ride ??--clearly not an option anyonereally wants to concider.

Why is this so important? why worry??
Theres a round of the AMCC club series coming up pretty soon. Will COC accept the track without risk reduction strategies in place??
Last round of the nationals is gonna be early next year. Will it be at HD or will AMCC concider the risk of injury too great?
If I was a track day organiser I'd be very nervous about HD for fear of a repeat.
So this is an opertunity for KB to actually do some good.

A 75km long piece of straight race track with no corners whatsoever should eliminate all corner related incidents....... , boredom & going to sleep at the bars at 300kph could be a slight issue though.

[BoristheBiter]

A 75km long piece of straight race track with no corners whatsoever should eliminate all corner related incidents....... , boredom & going to sleep at the bars at 300kph could be a slight issue though.

Street race in the US of A??

[Blackflagged]

Try make it straighter from the Sweeper past the wall to start finish ,would decrease injury risk, without sucking to much fun out of things.

[Robert Taylor]

Actually what is funny (ironic not ha ha) is that in 2 other sports I'm involved in we are discussing exactly this senario. Its about risk management. Lots of factors involved that if the stars alighn right and the combination of factors comes up somebody dies. Remove any one or more of the factors and the person has a bit of a fright or an expensive day but is still alive preferably unhurt and their gear/vehicle undamaged
SO what can be done in the real world to reduce the risk in THIS senario??
NOT ride ??--clearly not an option anyonereally wants to concider.

Why is this so important? why worry??
Theres a round of the AMCC club series coming up pretty soon. Will COC accept the track without risk reduction strategies in place??
Last round of the nationals is gonna be early next year. Will it be at HD or will AMCC concider the risk of injury too great?
If I was a track day organiser I'd be very nervous about HD for fear of a repeat.
So this is an opertunity for KB to actually do some good.

Risk management

1) Track, move the wall / air fences etc as neccessary. Remove the lip.

2) Ensure that machines being ridden are set up in a safe manner that will not cause instability or if they get out of shape they are responsive enough to regain some stability. Currently this is to a major degree self policing but it scares me how many machines are badly set up with external adjustments only and that often raises the possibility of getting into grief. What also has to be considered is the safety of other riders in your immediate vicinity.

More education needed for riders and much more setup knowledge at dealer level. How could anyone argue with that?

This is more than about the track itself

[Robert Taylor]

You could at least have the manners to say he's a big dick....... :-)

At least all the girls afford me that courtesy! Luckily Craigs only association with me is twiddling with his suspenders!

[BoristheBiter]

Risk management

1) Track, move the wall / air fences etc as neccessary. Remove the lip.

2) Ensure that machines being ridden are set up in a safe manner that will not cause instability or if they get out of shape they are responsive enough to regain some stability. Currently this is to a major degree self policing but it scares me how many machines are badly set up with external adjustments only and that often raises the possibility of getting into grief. What also has to be considered is the safety of other riders in your immediate vicinity.

More education needed for riders and much more setup knowledge at dealer level. How could anyone argue with that?

This is more than about the track itself

Your having a laugh aren't you?
I thought this was the reason for riding on a track.
Guess you do know more than me.

[Robert Taylor]

Your having a laugh aren't you?
I thought this was the reason for riding on a track.
Guess you do know more than me.

No, Im being deadly serious. I dont think there is any excuse for being blase or flippant about machine setup when it can endager your safety and that of others by increasing the risk of having an accident. Be it on road or on track.
I aplogise profusely for actually being concerned about such issues.
The culture of blame is alive and well in New Zealand but the whole context has to be looked at, as will the coroner if he is diligent in his duty.

[Gremlin]

I reckon a tight chicane after the sweeper, perhaps on the bottom of the hill or on the start of the hill, a proper permanent one, something as tight like the one near the end of the Donington course.

Wheelies would be an issue, but it would be right in front of the stands so great for spectators, make the pit entry safer, as you have the entry before the chicane (well, possible to have it afterwards I guess). Speeds past the wall/hump would be lower and the start line wouldn't be so much of an issue position wise, as speeds would be lower entering turn 1. Actually, a fair bit like the end of the Taupo full track...

I reckon it would make it pretty mint.

[White trash]

You and I agree on almost everything Robert, I'm lucky enough to ask for your expertise and guidance on a raft of issues and believe you'd never wittingly put me crook.

However. Regardless of what caused the loss of control, the fact is that a fucking great wall resides a mere 2 feet from the track edge. On a bend.

[Robert Taylor]

You and I agree on almost everything Robert, I'm lucky enough to ask for your expertise and guidance on a raft of issues and believe you'd never wittingly put me crook.

However. Regardless of what caused the loss of control, the fact is that a fucking great wall resides a mere 2 feet from the track edge. On a bend.

Correct and I think no-one disagrees that the proximity of the wall is a substanial issue. Im highlighting that accidents can ''start'' because of other issues.

Both issues are extremely valid

[Kickaha]

I reckon it would make it pretty mint.

It's pretty fucking mint as it is without having chicanes added to fuck it up

[Pussy]

However. Regardless of what caused the loss of control, the fact is that a fucking great wall resides a mere 2 feet from the track edge. On a bend.

Spot on, Jimmy. That IS the problem!

When you're up to your arse in alligators, one must never lose sight of the original intention to drain the swamp.

A concrete wall killed Tim

[Quasievil]

No, Im being deadly serious. I dont think there is any excuse for being blase or flippant about machine setup when it can endager your safety and that of others by increasing the risk of having an accident. Be it on road or on track.
I aplogise profusely for actually being concerned about such issues.
The culture of blame is alive and well in New Zealand but the whole context has to be looked at, as will the coroner if he is diligent in his duty.

Am I completely reading this wrong but to put this into the discussion as back up for RT
I think I understand the point your making,your right, machine setup is a fundamental part of riding safely at speed on any track, whats hard to understand about that people ?
If your going to go and thrash your stead of choice on a track it is prudent to make sure your machine is setup right, that includes suspension.............accept the fact that RT knows about this subject embrace it and learn from him and others with such expertise, or ignore it at your peril...........you decide.

While Im at it, some of the gear you lot wear leaves ALOT to be desired :shutup:

[Pussy]

Am I completely reading this wrong but to put this into the discussion as back up for RT
I think I understand the point your making,your right, machine setup is a fundamental part of riding safely at speed on any track, whats hard to understand about that people ?
If your going to go and thrash your stead of choice on a track it is prudent to make sure your machine is setup right, that includes suspension.............accept the fact that RT knows about this subject embrace it and learn from him and others with such expertise, or ignore it at your peril...........you decide.

While Im at it, some of the gear you lot wear leaves ALOT to be desired :shutup:
The best suspension set up in the world won't help you when you plough in to a dirty big concrete wall

[roadracingoldfart]

shut up robert your a dick:facepalm::yes:

Hahahaha , tell it like ya mean it Craig.


A 75km long piece of straight race track with no corners whatsoever should eliminate all corner related incidents....... , boredom & going to sleep at the bars at 300kph could be a slight issue though.

its simple mate, take a book to stay awake.


At least all the girls afford me that courtesy! Luckily Craigs only association with me is twiddling with his suspenders!

That just sounds wrong Robert.


The best suspension set up in the world won't help you when you plough in to a dirty big concrete wall

Thats 100% acurate. Also even with the correct suspension setup the chance of machine or rider fault still equals a concrete stop point. Mindless.
I assume the wall at Taupo (our other international track ) has slipped the mind of you all. Its a track design mindset we have in N.Z. that allows cockups to be built cause fuckin ACC will take the sting away and pay the bills. Then nobody has to put the hand up to take the sword falling syndrome.
Tim may just make a differance now.

[White trash]

Am I completely reading this wrong but to put this into the discussion as back up for RT
I think I understand the point your making,your right, machine setup is a fundamental part of riding safely at speed on any track, whats hard to understand about that people ?
If your going to go and thrash your stead of choice on a track it is prudent to make sure your machine is setup right, that includes suspension.............accept the fact that RT knows about this subject embrace it and learn from him and others with such expertise, or ignore it at your peril...........you decide.

While Im at it, some of the gear you lot wear leaves ALOT to be desired :shutup:

I know you're fucking joking now mate. Had poor old Tim been wearing a full Knox suit, complete with Knox restraint system and a Knox pair of sunglasses, he still would not have survived HITTING A FUCKIN WALL at that speed.

Yes. Riders need to take some responsibilty for their setup. At worst, enjoying their track day more and saving tyre wear. At best, avoiding an incident that could kill them.

They also need to invest a bit of forethought in their riding aparel, making their day more comfortable and potentially saving their life or nasty injury.

Fact remains, a man was tradgically killed after coliding with a solid object that arguably should not have been there.

[Quasievil]

I know you're fucking joking now mate. Had poor old Tim been wearing a full Knox suit, complete with Knox restraint system and a Knox pair of sunglasses, he still would not have survived HITTING A FUCKIN WALL at that speed.

Yes. Riders need to take some responsibilty for their setup. At worst, enjoying their track day more and saving tyre wear. At best, avoiding an incident that could kill them.

They also need to invest a bit of forethought in their riding aparel, making their day more comfortable and potentially saving their life or nasty injury.

Fact remains, a man was tradgically killed after coliding with a solid object that arguably should not have been there.

I dont think RT was referring to the actual crash involving Tim was he??
If so I stand down

[Gremlin]

It's pretty fucking mint as it is without having chicanes added to fuck it up
I have a supermoto... I like corners, the more the better :yes: Them horrible sportsbikes fucked off down the straights then held me up in the corners :angry:

[Robert Taylor]

The best suspension set up in the world won't help you when you plough in to a dirty big concrete wall

That is correct John and I have been at pains to point out that I too have issue with the proximity of that wall. But great suspension and overall bike setup may just preclude veering off line and making contact with that wall. Or any immovable object, on track or on road for that matter.
Im merely highlighting that badly maladjusted suspension often sets up the start of a crash, yes the end of that crash was tragic because it was a solid object in close proximity. And that issue needs attention.

[White trash]

I dont think RT was referring to the actual crash involving Tim was he??
If so I stand down

Well, all of the comments are in a thread discussing perceived design flaws with a race track, revisited following Tims untimely demise. I think there's a tie in yeah.

And I've never known you to be one to stand down mate.

[suzuki21]

shut up robert your a dick:facepalm::yes:

A few people are saying odd stuff. "It was the hump" "it was the wall" "it was suspension"
Here is something really out there................ maybe he had cold tires, maybe he turned in to soon, went wide, and :-(

[Quasievil]

Well, all of the comments are in a thread discussing perceived design flaws with a race track, revisited following Tims untimely demise. I think there's a tie in yeah.

And I've never known you to be one to stand down mate.

True

To sum up then give me 5 minutes with a pen and paper and I could design a better track than Hampton, and so could my Lakeland terrier :yes:

Oh, and fix the fucking wall and the stupid pit lane entry cock up.

[gixerracer]

A few people are saying odd stuff. "It was the hump" "it was the wall" "it was suspension"
Here is something really out there................ maybe he had cold tires, maybe he turned in to soon, went wide, and :-(

I doubt there was any thing specifc other than the fact the poor bugger got out of shape and there was no where for him to go which is a very very sad thing indeed.
I didnt seem to think the track was that bad the first time I rode there on my superbike but having watched the first round of the AMCC recently in the rain I think the whole main straight is very unsafe with the painted lines etc and if you have a group going in there and one spins up and gets a bit out of shape this is going to end again in tears

[Pussy]

Here is something really out there................ maybe he had cold tires, maybe he turned in to soon, went wide, and :-(

..... which wouldn't have been an issue with a safer run-off area

the wall isn't very well placed

[Brett]

That is correct John and I have been at pains to point out that I too have issue with the proximity of that wall. But great suspension and overall bike setup may just preclude veering off line and making contact with that wall. Or any immovable object, on track or on road for that matter.
Im merely highlighting that badly maladjusted suspension often sets up the start of a crash, yes the end of that crash was tragic because it was a solid object in close proximity. And that issue needs attention.

I think that the immediate issue to be addressed is the safety issue of the wall. In a risk assessment, that is the surely the blaring safety issue and I think that HD management need to review this fairly urgently. I would be very surprised if WSBK or the likes would attend HD in its present state.

However I absolutely agree with your statements about riders needing to have a better understanding of how their machines work. Personally it is something that I take very seriously because I want to understand how my bike works and thus how to set it up best for me and my riding style. Not all track day riders will be the same though.

However, this is not an overnight fix. Many riders at trackdays are new to the track and probably wouldn't know what rebound or suspension travel is. Robert, the likes of yourself and Shaun have years and years of experience that cannot be replicated in others in days, weeks or months.

Because of this, bike setup will continue to be a cause of some crashes. A new rider who has just upgraded to their shiny new 600cc SS can't be expected to know how best to set the thing up and so any race track needs to be designed with people crashing in mind.

I think the idea of a chicane is a great temporary (or possibly longterm) fix.

[Robert Taylor]

A few people are saying odd stuff. "It was the hump" "it was the wall" "it was suspension"
Here is something really out there................ maybe he had cold tires, maybe he turned in to soon, went wide, and :-(

For once you make sense Steve Sangster, there are possibly a whole cocktail of reasons for Tim getting into a situation that sent him on a trajectory towards the wall.

[Tony.OK]

Man this thread is just going in circles............

People can blame all the bike issues in the world, tyre, suspension, green rider...........what if a bike had a mechanical prob at that point? No drama, may crash because of it. BUT that crash should not result in a tragedy because of a design fault of the track. Shit tracks and crashing go hand in hand almost.

Ok there are tragedies that occur from freak mishaps at tracks, but simply put a rider shouldn't be on that list just because of a setup problem or bad line etc. FACT!!

[Kickaha]

To sum up then give me 5 minutes with a pen and paper and I could design a better track than Hampton, and so could my Lakeland terrier :yes:

I'd put my money on the dog designing the better one of the two

[Robert Taylor]

I think that the immediate issue to be addressed is the safety issue of the wall. In a risk assessment, that is the surely the blaring safety issue and I think that HD management need to review this fairly urgently. I would be very surprised if WSBK or the likes would attend HD in its present state.

However I absolutely agree with your statements about riders needing to have a better understanding of how their machines work. Personally it is something that I take very seriously because I want to understand how my bike works and thus how to set it up best for me and my riding style. Not all track day riders will be the same though.

However, this is not an overnight fix. Many riders at trackdays are new to the track and probably wouldn't know what rebound or suspension travel is. Robert, the likes of yourself and Shaun have years and years of experience that cannot be replicated in others in days, weeks or months.

Because of this, bike setup will continue to be a cause of some crashes. A new rider who has just upgraded to their shiny new 600cc SS can't be expected to know how best to set the thing up and so any race track needs to be designed with people crashing in mind.

I think the idea of a chicane is a great temporary (or possibly longterm) fix.

In that light I think there is a very real responsibility for the industry at large to themselves have much better understanding of overall bike setup and a few very emphatic donts such as my pet hate of screwing the rebound down too far. That alone is a big cause of crashing.

In this light the industry at large is a little wanting and in the end event the end users ( riders ) should be better informed before they venture out onto road or track

[ellipsis]

.....dunno if im being a little cynical but...will anyone who should take notice , take notice, or do we have to wait til a car driver buys the farm, before a 'serious issue is evident'....after all , we're only motorcycles.....or is their not an issue....so many tracks in so many places have ridiculously dangerous bits that are part of the deal, mainly older tracks that have kept up with what japan threw at them over the last three decades....pretty sad state of affairs that a new track should have an issue built into it....total cynicism coming up....if the car clubs dont like it , problem solved...

[CHOPPA]

.....dunno if im being a little cynical but...will anyone who should take notice , take notice, or do we have to wait til a car driver buys the farm, before a 'serious issue is evident'....after all , we're only motorcycles.....or is their not an issue....so many tracks in so many places have ridiculously dangerous bits that are part of the deal, mainly older tracks that have kept up with what japan threw at them over the last three decades....pretty sad state of affairs that a new track should have an issue built into it....total cynicism coming up....if the car clubs dont like it , problem solved...

Cars are not fast enough and the wall is not enough of an angle to be that bad, well hopefully not

[Maido]

Out of all the people who think that the track design is dangerous, who would be prepared to boycott riding there at the next series/national event due to this and possibly present the track owners with a reason why they aren't going?
Noone, amirite?

[merv]

At least all the girls afford me that courtesy! Luckily Craigs only association with me is twiddling with his suspenders!

Does he wear his stiletto heels too when you are doing this?

[Kickaha]

Cars are not fast enough and the wall is not enough of an angle to be that bad, well hopefully not


You sure about that?, the fastest cars (single seaters) are close to 260kmh thats down on the Superbikes but it'd have to be close to 600 speed

"The lap record has been broken again by Mitch Evans during the NZ Motor Cup weekend.

Evans clocked in at 1:01.846, set on lap 12 of the second race with a best speed of 153.090 km/h"


"The lap record for Motorbikes was recorded on a Prod Superbike ridden by Andrew Stroud during the NZ Superbike Championship 2010 at 1:04.693

Top recorded speed is 287 kph by Andrew Stroud on his Suzuki!"

[merv]

In support of Kick's comment the point is the cars to make those lap times carry way more corner speed so any off at a corner could be at a far higher speed than a bike is doing. One key difference then is the person in the car has a cage around them for protection when the car slams the wall.

[Rcktfsh]

ahahhaha 1:30 lap around manfeild on a streetstock bike is decent pace then? i think sooo....i do find it boring, ive ridden taupo,puke,hampton, manfeild alot... i dont like it. Niether to do other people, mostly because its used to much.

Hampton is world class, i know you've traveled the world and been on every track, but lets just not bragg ey?

Maybe if you were on the pace at 1.27's youd find it a little more exciting.

[Shaun]

1 Car streight into the end of an exsposed armcoh? barrier, 1 rider Killed?

The track design is 100% NOT safe as the facts proove.

Thanks to Craig Shirrifs comments on the front streight, and he is a man with balls and a brain!

The track is being run in the WRONG design direction

we can go on about this and that being the cause, but like my TT crash, if there was NO CONCRETE wall there, There would be NO RIP THREAD TO TIM

[Kickaha]

The track design is 100% NOT safe as the facts proove.

No track is 100% safe as accidents all around New Zealand tracks prove


The track is being run in the WRONG design direction

If it truly had been designed to be run the other direction then we'd be doing it

[Shaun]

No track is 100% safe as accidents all around New Zealand tracks prove


# I did not say that tracks should be 100% safe, what I said was, this NEW track, has proven itself NOT to be as safe as a track should/could be



If it truly had been designed to be run the other direction then we'd be doing it

Not after it was thought that cars could loose a wheel which could end up on the MOTORWAY if run in the anti clock wise direction?

Just take a good look at the design/flow of corners, it was designed to be run in anti clock direction I believe, but the above put them off. It would have been cheaper and better to just build a bloody big fense beside the motorway, but i suppose when you have NO money to spend, and need to find a way of generating money, you do what you have to do to achieve this, buisness can be a very vicious things at times

[jellywrestler]

my Lakeland terrier

Lakeland terriers are the number one dog of choice for hairdressers!

[Mort]

Not after it was thought that cars could loose a wheel which could end up on the MOTORWAY if run in the anti clock wise direction?



Is that true ? That is shocking.

[Kickaha]

Just take a good look at the design/flow of corners, it was designed to be run in anti clock direction I believe

I would have to ride it to be convinced, I would have thought there wouldn't be enough run off at the hairpin in reverse

I also don't think it would be as interesting a track to ride

[Shaun]

Is that true ? That is shocking.



I can NOT say that is a FACT, it came out of the mouth of an accountant who was involved up there some how. And looking at the track after all the tracks I have been on around the world, I believe it to be true due to the chambers etc in certain turns as well as the pit entrance and exit design

[Gremlin]

Pit lane exit would be about the most dangerous thing on any track in NZ

[Brett]

You sure about that?, the fastest cars (single seaters) are close to 260kmh thats down on the Superbikes but it'd have to be close to 600 speed

"The lap record has been broken again by Mitch Evans during the NZ Motor Cup weekend.

Evans clocked in at 1:01.846, set on lap 12 of the second race with a best speed of 153.090 km/h"


"The lap record for Motorbikes was recorded on a Prod Superbike ridden by Andrew Stroud during the NZ Superbike Championship 2010 at 1:04.693

Top recorded speed is 287 kph by Andrew Stroud on his Suzuki!"

Guy I work with used to regularly take his Porsche 911 turbo around HD and used to struggle with tail end issues over the hump. Thus I would imagine many race cars would struggle just as much.

[Cleve]

Guy I work with used to regularly take his Porsche 911 turbo around HD and used to struggle with tail end issues over the hump. Thus I would imagine many race cars would struggle just as much.

Any one know what the car racing forums (if such things exist) are saying about HD?

[Mort]

I bet these two would have something to say about the design.... would this have happened if the circuit was run the other way round ?

PBHkNOnKxlo

Its shocking to think the accident with Tim would not have happened if the circuit was run as designed..... there needs to be an explanation from the circuit owners.

[rat]

Is that true ? That is shocking.

Yep this is true, LTSA stopped the owners running the track in the direction it was ment to run for this reason ( from one of the owners mouth). You just have to look at the pit entrance and exit. They are completly wrong for the direction as it is.
now. Yes I think when revenue has picked up and more work can be done, the track will revert to the way it was ment to run.
My 2 cents :)

[Shaun]

Yep this is true, LTSA stopped the owners running the track in the direction it was ment to run for this reason ( from one of the owners mouth). You just have to look at the pit entrance and exit. They are completly wrong for the direction as it is.
now. Yes I think when revenue has picked up and more work can be done, the track will revert to the way it was ment to run.
My 2 cents :)


Cheers Rat, there had to be some logical? Reason about this.

[Mort]

I wasn't sure at first but it makes sense to me now looking at the width of turn one, the temporary wall (on the inside of turn one (right on the apex), the width of turn 6, the wall the car hit above, the entrance to the Pit lane and the original placement of the finish line. The circuit is designed to run the other way.

http://www.hamptondowns.com/assets/image/HD%20Map%20black%20outline.jpg

You know what - that really is a disgusting monolithic fuck up which arguably cost some one their life.

[BoristheBiter]

that would make turns 2 & 3 fun if done in reverse.

[Kickaha]

I bet these two would have something to say about the design.... would this have happened if the circuit was run the other way round ?

If the dumb fuck in the Mini drove the Porsche off the track then yes quite possibly



Its shocking to think the accident with Tim would not have happened if the circuit was run as designed..... there needs to be an explanation from the circuit owners.

Might not have happened at that part of the circuit, it doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened somewhere else on it


Yep this is true, LTSA stopped the owners running the track in the direction it was meant to run for this reason ( from one of the owners mouth). You just have to look at the pit entrance and exit. They are completely wrong for the direction as it is.

Why would the LTSA have any input into it? was it the reason Shaun gave before regarding proximity to the motorway?



You know what - that really is a disgusting monolithic fuck up which arguably cost some one their life.

Getting up in the morning can cost you your life

[FROSTY]

Gosh guys this is unbelievable.
RT you can argue round n round but a propperly desighned track wont by desighn flaws lead to a death.
As I've said repeatedly Yes suspenders,yes a hump, yes potholes,yes an incorrectly tensioned chain,yes a flat tyre at the wrong moment or cold tyres are all going to result in a crash if the stars are alighned right.
What NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES should be a result of this combination of factors is somebody ending up dead.
Yea I know it has happened but in this case had there not been an immobile object on the outside of the corner he most likely would have just been going home early or maybee have busted a leg.

[FROSTY]

one question I'd like to ask-havent actually got down on hands n knees and checked.
The walls concerned are they actually bolted down or do they float? Ie could a forkhoist come along and simply shift the wall back?

[roadracingoldfart]

one question I'd like to ask-havent actually got down on hands n knees and checked.
The walls concerned are they actually bolted down or do they float? Ie could a forkhoist come along and simply shift the wall back?

I dont know the answer your asking Frosty but i can tell you a good 40 ton digger operator can move them for ya while hes taking the hump off .:innocent:

Paul.

[cowpoos]

Rather than a poo fight

Who wants a fight????

[10bikekid]

The Fact that's it a Tuono doesn't help either, and without a steering damper I'd hate to go over there pinned (fun for sure but probable not safe)
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt119/800rider/IMGP0784.jpg

[Shaun]

one question I'd like to ask-havent actually got down on hands n knees and checked.
The walls concerned are they actually bolted down or do they float? Ie could a forkhoist come along and simply shift the wall back?

It probally could Frosty, but there is NO money to even put power in the pits mate, how are they going to afford to do that????? Money is simply the issue at Hampton D, I am very very sure No one had seen the major dangerous potentuall of the lay out as it has been used

[FROSTY]

It probally could Frosty, but there is NO money to even put power in the pits mate, how are they going to afford to do that????? Money is simply the issue at Hampton D, I am very very sure No one had seen the major dangerous potentuall of the lay out as it has been used
Im working on the KISS principle here. Ie 1 forkhoist 1 day shift the wall back about 2.0m to the foot of the stairs.Then a cone chicane leading to the "hump" Sure it isn't the "answer" but maybee its enough to keep the joint able to be used by the race clubs untill they have some money to review the situation.
Then again Isn't this the whole armco at pukie argument all over again? --armco was very good for the v8 boys but pretty deadly for bike riders.
The money at HD isn't in bikes now is it . The money is in the cars

[scracha]

Out of all the people who think that the track design is dangerous, who would be prepared to boycott riding there at the next series/national event due to this and possibly present the track owners with a reason why they aren't going?
Noone, amirite?

No, you're wrong. Lotsa riders boycott Puke. Can't see why HD would be any different.


If the track was in reverse if would have just as many problems:
1) The hairpin would need its wall moved back umm....50m (with a gentle up hill slope before it to scrub off speed).
2) T3 would launch riders
3) T4 exit would need more run-off
4) the sticky out bits in the start-finish straight wall would still cause problems....no different just because they'd be on the RHS of the rider.


Basically the wall needs smoothed out ASAP. Ideally it needs pushed back with some runoff. Clearly, car money is doing the talking.

[Kickaha]

Im working on the KISS principle here. Ie 1 forkhoist 1 day shift the wall back about 2.0m to the foot of the stairs.

I thought behind the wall was full of dirt? then there's also the fence to move as well

Even if you could move it back that easily it also means the track is unusable until that extra 2.0m strip is sealed

Moving it back still means there's a wall there you can hit if it all goes wrong, an extra 2.0m doesn't take long to travel at speeds in excess of 200kmh

[Robert Taylor]

Gosh guys this is unbelievable.
RT you can argue round n round but a propperly desighned track wont by desighn flaws lead to a death.
As I've said repeatedly Yes suspenders,yes a hump, yes potholes,yes an incorrectly tensioned chain,yes a flat tyre at the wrong moment or cold tyres are all going to result in a crash if the stars are alighned right.
What NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES should be a result of this combination of factors is somebody ending up dead.
Yea I know it has happened but in this case had there not been an immobile object on the outside of the corner he most likely would have just been going home early or maybee have busted a leg.

I never was in effect ''justifying'' the wall proximity Frosty and I happen to think its dangerous as well.

There are two very valid points;

1) Safety of the circuit itself. (Heck that in NZ rules out all the street circuits.) Often leading to,
*** End result scenarios if someone crashes.***

2) Motorcycle industry and personal responsibility in ensuring that bikes that are ridden on such circuits are themselves fit to do so. ( Now thats a real can of worms and doubtless emotional to a few ) If a bike gets into a trajectory where it may be heading towards a crash is the chassis ''forgiving and responsive'' so that the crash may be averted ( for example )
*** Prevention of crashes that may and can occur because of poor bike setup***

Before someone gets off their high horse the above comments are generalised and worthy of thought

[FROSTY]

I thought behind the wall was full of dirt? then there's also the fence to move as well

Even if you could move it back that easily it also means the track is unusable until that extra 2.0m strip is sealed

Moving it back still means there's a wall there you can hit if it all goes wrong, an extra 2.0m doesn't take long to travel at speeds in excess of 200kmh
The fence is bolted to the wall and under the wall is currently sealed (to the best of my knowledge) moving it back 2.0m would mean that if deemed nessesary AMCC could use some of their Pukie crash bales. For that matter as raised a couple of years back KB vollys were prepared to be drop off points for the filling and someone was prepared to donate bags so maybee again its something positive KB could do.

[Kickaha]

The fence is bolted to the wall and under the wall is currently sealed (to the best of my knowledge) moving it back 2.0m would mean that if deemed nessesary AMCC could use some of their Pukie crash bales. For that matter as raised a couple of years back KB vollys were prepared to be drop off points for the filling and someone was prepared to donate bags so maybee again its something positive KB could do.

What is behind the wall?

Would a resource consent be needed as it is an alteration to the track?


Ok Guys I've hinted here but lets be clear. I think you will find that the official report will show It was NOT the wall itself that killed him.

What killed the poor guy was the brackets on the wall.


You've said it wasn't the wall that killed him so will moving it really help?

[FROSTY]

I never was in effect ''justifying'' the wall proximity Frosty and I happen to think its dangerous as well.
Before someone gets off their high horse the above comments are generalised and worthy of thought

Robert you yourself are only to aware of the good ol kiwi --"she'll be right mate" attitude. Gosh darn it in so many ways this is just plumb fantastic.
Where its not fantastic is this often results in issues being swept under the carpet.
So If possible I really want as many folks to get ON their high horses before this issue does the same and becomes forgotten. Getting em emotional getting em outraged may be enough for change to be put in place to the track.
Otherwise I genuinely live in fear that this senario will be repeated and this time maybee not "just" one guy.
My point ??
You have valid arguements but you are diluting the impact of this specific issue by offering the other contributing factors.

[Kickaha]

You have valid arguements but you are diluting the impact of this specific issue by offering the other contributing factors.

If you do any H & S you would know an accident is generally not caused by any one thing but a series of contributing factors remove anyone of them and the result is normally very different

[FROSTY]

You've said it wasn't the wall that killed him so will moving it really help?
No not the wall itself but what is (was) bolted to the wall so move the wall back and move the other part back as well. but this also allows room for impact protection in front of the section concerned.
To answer the question. I don't actually know the composition behind the wall but heck maybee from me saying heres an idea and you saying it won't work maybee someones gonna come up with a suggestion that can work and is cost effective

[FROSTY]

If you do any H & S you would know an accident is generally not caused by any one thing but a series of contributing factors remove anyone of them and the result is normally very different
Apsolutely agree 100%
but that doesn't get the track fixed does it?

[Kickaha]

To answer the question. I don't actually know the composition behind the wall but heck maybee from me saying heres an idea and you saying it won't work maybee someones gonna come up with a suggestion that can work and is cost effective

I haven't at any point said it won't work, I just think you're making it look a lot easier than it will be to do it

Of course all this discussion means pretty much nothing anyway unless the track owners are on board with modifications to the track and it also maybe dependent on what the coroner recommends

[MSTRS]

Of course all this discussion means pretty much nothing anyway unless the track owners are on board with modifications to the track and it also maybe dependent on what the coroner recommends

Coroner's inquest won't be for months, maybe a year. An identified problem is going to stay in place in the meantime? How many others might lose their lives to it, before something is done?

[Shaun]

Coroner's inquest won't be for months, maybe a year. An identified problem is going to stay in place in the meantime? How many others might lose their lives to it, before something is done?


The track is still being used even after the loss of Tim. It could take more lives as it is, the dangerous fault is write in every ones face!!!!!


NO Clerk of the Course will be able to approve this track as it is for Bike racing any longer, as it really is not as safe as it could or should be, and a Clerk of the Course has to make these decisions based on history and experience, and we have the history as it is now.

So how is it that Hampton Downs management can keep renting there unsafe track to the public

[Shaun]

If you do any H & S you would know an accident is generally not caused by any one thing but a series of contributing factors remove anyone of them and the result is normally very different



Cemantics? mate! The wall with the polls bolted to them Killed Tim

[Kickaha]

Cemantics? mate! The wall with the polls bolted to them Killed Tim

There was a sequence of events leading up to that which made the impact occur, it needs to be looked at in it's entirety not just the end result or you haven't solved anything

[MSTRS]

There was a sequence of events leading up to that which made the impact occur, it needs to be looked at in it's entirety not just the end result or you haven't solved anything

Agreed. But...
That series of events may have been random, and difficult to replicate. But with a bunch of bikes belting around the track, it's just a matter of time before same/similar events leads to same outcome.
There's only 2 things that can be changed to ensure no repeat.
1. Change rider 'behaviour' - ie chicane
2. Shift/alter/protect the wall.

[FROSTY]

Look guys this EXACT conversation was had about and with Taupo track management because of the issue with the end of their pit wall. The solution was T12/13 and 14 chicane. They listened before someone died.
What I would personally really hate to happen is someone being able to say in a few months or even a year or so's time--I told you so -look others have died

[Shaun]

Agreed. But...
That series of events may have been random, and difficult to replicate. But with a bunch of bikes belting around the track, it's just a matter of time before same/similar events leads to same outcome.
There's only 2 things that can be changed to ensure no repeat.
1. Change rider 'behaviour' - ie chicane
2. Shift/alter/protect the wall.


You got it, as has Frosty in his above post

[merv]

So why don't one of you guys in the know (Shaun?) ring the Department of Labour and report this as an unsafe place? If people are paying to use the facility and there are any paid employees at all then DoL can sort them quick smart (and even if it was an all volunteer outfit, which it isn't I'm sure) as the owners have to "take all practicable steps" to ensure safety.

[Robert Taylor]

If you do any H & S you would know an accident is generally not caused by any one thing but a series of contributing factors remove anyone of them and the result is normally very different

Exactly Warwick and thats what Ive been saying all along! But again I reinforce and totally agree the track needs altering.

If an A380 falls out of the sky and hits the ocean its the ocean that physically kills the passengers, but what started it falling out of the sky?

But I also cannot help but notice that there is a level of hypocrisy as more than a few who have posted on here have raced on far more dangerous circuits. So in that light why is HD being singled out ? Look at the debacle that was Paeroa the last time it ran ( for example )

How many racers on here have sold second hand race tyres that have been already through too many heat cycles and are well past their best etc etc? ( for example )

The coroners inquest will be looking not only at the track and that wall, they will be looking at the whole chain of events. FACT

[Kickaha]

But I also cannot help but notice that there is a level of hypocrisy as more than a few who have posted on here have raced on far more dangerous circuits. So in that light why is HD being singled out ? Look at the debacle that was Paeroa the last time it ran ( for example )

I think the difference being we (or at least I) are willing to accept a higher level of risk on a street circuit but expect more from a purpose built race circuit

[Grumph]

NO Clerk of the Course will be able to approve this track as it is for Bike racing any longer, as it really is not as safe as it could or should be, and a Clerk of the Course has to make these decisions based on history and experience, and we have the history as it is now. Quoting Shaun.

Sorry it's not in the hands of a clerk of the course...The MNZ senior steward for the area or designated person of that level does circuit inspection and approval. A clerk of the course can change nothing from the approved layout.

If you have concerns about the track safety you should raise them directly with your area senior steward whose name & number should be in the current book.

For a track day accident with no MNZ steward present I'd imagine the coroner may well call whoever did the MNZ circuit approval to verify there was an approval issued for bike use.

[Kickaha]

For a track day accident with no MNZ steward present I'd imagine the coroner may well call whoever did the MNZ circuit approval to verify there was an approval issued for bike use.

I would have thought there would have to be FIM approval before it could have been used after it was built

[Grumph]

FIM approval is only sought if you wish to hold a meeting on an FIM permit - eg World Superbikes.
Motorsport NZ and our MNZ however have adopted the FIA/FIM policy of only approving a circuit for one direction of use...bugger it.
In this county it's our rulebook which we work to....no one elses.

[jellywrestler]

If an A380 falls out of the sky and hits the ocean
Isn't an A380 a photocopier??????

[merv]

Isn't an A380 a photocopier??????

I reckon the GT380 of the 1970's is cooler than an A380.

[DEATH_INC.]

*cough* actually it was my idea first (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/113858-Hampton-Downs-is-there-an-issue?p=1129903885#post1129903885)

:yes:
Yes it was, and it's a bloody good one. And simple.

[Shaun]

Exactly Warwick and thats what Ive been saying all along! But again I reinforce and totally agree the track needs altering.

If an A380 falls out of the sky and hits the ocean its the ocean that physically kills the passengers, but what started it falling out of the sky?

But I also cannot help but notice that there is a level of hypocrisy as more than a few who have posted on here have raced on far more dangerous circuits. So in that light why is HD being singled out ? Look at the debacle that was Paeroa the last time it ran ( for example )

How many racers on here have sold second hand race tyres that have been already through too many heat cycles and are well past their best etc etc? ( for example )

The coroners inquest will be looking not only at the track and that wall, they will be looking at the whole chain of events. FACT

I am the person on here who raced at known potentually dangerous tracks, the TT. I choose to race there for the BUZ of it, I Know it is Dangerous, and it is my life to make this disision/choice.

I too have also sold used race tyres that are past there best heat cycle, but still GOOD ENOUGH CONDITION for a slower rider to use.

I have NOT intentianally slagged/knocked NOR blaimed HD for this loss,it was a race track incident. BUT the safety problems that have been highlighted due to the loss of Tim, now need Serious considerations before running the track as it is currently is being used.

What I have done, is voice my opinion to a Dangerous situation, as I did for a while concerning Pukekohe, Roads are Dangerous!!!! Tracks should not be:yes:

I would call on all Buisnesses that make a dollar from HD to pull out of there untill the safety issues are fixed.

[cowboyz]

There was a sequence of events leading up to that which made the impact occur, it needs to be looked at in it's entirety not just the end result or you haven't solved anything


the question is... are you trying to prevent accidents... or deaths?



If an A380 falls out of the sky and hits the ocean its the ocean that physically kills the passengers, but what started it falling out of the sky?

How many racers on here have sold second hand race tyres that have been already through too many heat cycles and are well past their best etc etc? ( for example )

The coroners inquest will be looking not only at the track and that wall, they will be looking at the whole chain of events. FACT

if a solid concrete wall is build at the end of a runways and a A380 runs into it cause they didnt take off in time and kills everyone then you start blaming the pilot for not getting the craft inthe air quick enough rather than the design of the runway to allow accidents to happen.......................

budget racing relys on those at the top of the field selling stuff than is no longer suitable to get that 0.15 sec out of a laptime. I, for instance can alter laptimes by 1.5 secs and still be happy. Theres nothing wrong with running second hand gear from those at the top of the sport.

[Robert Taylor]

the question is... are you trying to prevent accidents... or deaths?



if a solid concrete wall is build at the end of a runways and a A380 runs into it cause they didnt take off in time and kills everyone then you start blaming the pilot for not getting the craft inthe air quick enough rather than the design of the runway to allow accidents to happen.......................

budget racing relys on those at the top of the field selling stuff than is no longer suitable to get that 0.15 sec out of a laptime. I, for instance can alter laptimes by 1.5 secs and still be happy. Theres nothing wrong with running second hand gear from those at the top of the sport.

I think ( with all respect ) that is splitting hairs a little. Im just pointing out that there is also a cause that set off the accident, and that it will be investigated by the coroner, as will the placement of that confounded wall.

Of course its okay selling off secondhand gear, as long as its servicable. But I also suspect there are some tyres sold off that very firmly should be placed in the bin.

[Kickaha]

the question is... are you trying to prevent accidents... or deaths?

Both



if a solid concrete wall is build at the end of a runways and a A380 runs into it cause they didnt take off in time and kills everyone then you start blaming the pilot for not getting the craft inthe air quick enough rather than the design of the runway to allow accidents to happen

That would depend on why it didn't take off in time

The wall isn't at 90 degrees to the race track, you will only hit it if you either aim for it or something goes wrong that puts you into it

[cowboyz]

Both



That would depend on why it didn't take off in time

The wall isn't at 90 degrees to the race track, you will only hit it if you either aim for it or something goes wrong that puts you into it

right.. well preventing all accidents at tracks. being trackdays and esp racedays is, in my opinion unrealistic. Riders dont go to the track to go for a sunday afternoon pootle. The go to test the limits of their skills and bike. This is not a new thing. Its the way it is. So preventing accidents is unrealistic. Making a safe envirnoment to limit damages is not.

the wall is in a dangerous position. No one disputes that do they?

[Robert Taylor]

I am the person on here who raced at known potentually dangerous tracks, the TT. I choose to race there for the BUZ of it, I Know it is Dangerous, and it is my life to make this disision/choice.

I too have also sold used race tyres that are past there best heat cycle, but still GOOD ENOUGH CONDITION for a slower rider to use.

I have NOT intentianally slagged/knocked NOR blaimed HD for this loss,it was a race track incident. BUT the safety problems that have been highlighted due to the loss of Tim, now need Serious considerations before running the track as it is currently is being used.

What I have done, is voice my opinion to a Dangerous situation, as I did for a while concerning Pukekohe, Roads are Dangerous!!!! Tracks should not be:yes:

I would call on all Buisnesses that make a dollar from HD to pull out of there untill the safety issues are fixed.

With respect to the IOM TT everyone knows that you nearly lost your life as a result of a crash due to a mechanical ''failure''. That being a steering damper bracket that was inappropriate for that bike. So in effect the CAUSE of that accident was avoidable.
Having suffered the end result of the cause and finish of that accident Id have hoped that you were pushing not only the justifiable barrow of condemning the placement of that wall, but also highlighting that a good many accidents are avoidable if machine setup is safe and sound.

[Robert Taylor]

right.. well preventing all accidents at tracks. being trackdays and esp racedays is, in my opinion unrealistic. Riders dont go to the track to go for a sunday afternoon pootle. The go to test the limits of their skills and bike. This is not a new thing. Its the way it is. So preventing accidents is unrealistic. Making a safe envirnoment to limit damages is not.

the wall is in a dangerous position. No one disputes that do they?

Agreed, no dispute and there will always be accidents. But its also about the minimising of things that set off accidents.

[FROSTY]

Robert your A380 vs ocean argument is more applicable in the tragedy that happened last round of the 2008 nationals.
A more realistic senario would be as cowboys put.
Someone put an 8 foot high wall at the end of a short runway having been informed repeatedly that in a failure to achieve V2 situation that ANY aircraft would be unable to stop before hitting the wall.
IF at that point in time the wall was not removed and people died then those responsible for the wall would be held accountable.
Sure the engine failure or fuel delivery or wind bomb may have caused the incident that required the safety margin to be used but it diddn't become deadly untill the plane hit the wall.

[scracha]

the wall is in a dangerous position. No one disputes that do they?
In an ideal world the wall would be further back. I don't actually see the position of the wall as being the major issue. Unlike Pukekohe's, you're not likely to hit it at more than a few degrees off parallel. However, even a glancing blow along that wall is going to be nasty as it's not smooth.

With the current financial restraints, I can't see the wall getting shifted as being achievable. I can however, see the removal or rendering of the nasty bits sticking out the wall as something that can be easily achieved.

[sAsLEX]

In an ideal world the wall would be further back. I don't actually see the position of the wall as being the major issue. Unlike Pukekohe's, you're not likely to hit it at more than a few degrees off parallel. However, even a glancing blow along that wall is going to be nasty as it's not smooth.

With the current financial restraints, I can't see the wall getting shifted as being achievable. I can however, see the removal or rendering of the nasty bits sticking out the wall as something that can be easily achieved.

Until the bike glances off the wall back into the path of the bikes following.

And the current financial crisis? When was this circuit designed?
Measure twice, cut once?