Hampton Downs: is there an issue?

[FROSTY]

Folks i'm trying to phrase this in a diplomatic way so please don't take this as deliberately inflamatory.
I saw a rather nasty car race crash at Hampton Downs on TV last night. It was at the point in the track Ive asked questions about before now.
A mini went head on into the end of a concrete track barrier that looked to be almost trackside. It was at such an angle that it was a head on impact.
it was a very big impact. I have no doubt if it was a bike the concequences would be severe.
Having only stood trackside a couple of times recently I dont feel qualified to propperly comment but If it is an issue I think NOW is the time to address it before the track is completed.

[discodan]

I saw that too and it loked pretty serious. Funny how the 3 news just saw it in an entertaining light and didn't even state if the drivers were ok!

Concrete walls are never desireable but that one was on the inside of the turn and hopefully not much risk to riders. Also, Manfeild has the pitlane wall on the outside of the last turn, which I have personally had to avoid by riding into pitlane after running wide on the last turn. So, if you are happy to ride at Manfeild then you can't complain too much.

Still, it's a bit worrying that a brand new circuit has had such a horrific looking accident already.

[Devil]

I'm only guessing where you're talking about and yes, it is the inside of a turn and no-where near the line a bike would be on (even racing).
Not ideal, but still not as bad as puke (hill), Taupo (coming onto front straight), manfield (onto front straight again).

[FROSTY]

I'm only guessing where you're talking about and yes, it is the inside of a turn and no-where near the line a bike would be on (even racing).
Not ideal, but still not as bad as puke (hill), Taupo (coming onto front straight), manfield (onto front straight again).
mate Have a look at the TV3 news clip. it looked to me to be the exit of T7 entering the back straight and on the OUTside of a corner.

[Deano]

It looked to me like it was on the inside of the gentle curve onto a straight.

Same as Taupo and Manfeild. A wall has to start somewhere. The only was to avoid it is to have a continuous wall around the track which is not practical is it ?

The top SBK/GP tracks have a continuous wall don't they ?

[FROSTY]

It looked to me like it was on the inside of the gentle curve onto a straight.

Same as Taupo and Manfeild. A wall has to start somewhere. The only was to avoid it is to have a continuous wall around the track which is not practical is it ?

The top SBK/GP tracks have a continuous wall don't they ?
Hey you may be right --to me it looked like the exit to a corner with a hill behind. I'm MORE than happy to be proven wrong.
Its just that being a not yet complete track, If there is an issue that could be resolved easilly by reangling what looks to be concrete motorway median--Ie shiftable
Isn't it better to deal with it before someone gets hurt?

[Devil]

mate Have a look at the TV3 news clip. it looked to me to be the exit of T7 entering the back straight and on the OUTside of a corner.

Got link?.......

[steveyb]

I have to agree that there are some design issues and also that TV3 did just make light of it, so I am assuming that the drivers were OK. If they were not they would have been all over it as a dangerous new track!

The crash was indeed on the inside of the corner, the exit of the last turn just after the first kink, THe issue was that the Mini got squeezed onto the grass and maintained its line across the grass causing the other white car to catch it and they both then spun out and slammed into the end of the wall which is an almost square end rather than an angle or curve.

I don't think that there would be too many issues with bikes at that particular place as bikes will not take to the grass to maintain position as that Mini appeared to.

But there is a much more serious danger point further along the straight at the paddock entrance. I saw cars being squeezed, as they come over the brow of the hill and around the second kink, towards the pit entrance which has a square wall 'protected' by a tyre wall, which looks pretty solid to me.

I can see serious issues here if a group of bikes come over the brow and start to squeeze towards the pit wall.

Why the pit entrance cannot start at the entry or exit of the last turn is beyond me. What is wrong with having a long pit entrance road? Make it like Philip Island, the pit entry there is pretty long and really safe.

I am concerned.

Steve

[Quasievil]

I went to the Car Race meeting and from what I hear there are issues with what drivers are saying, Ive been to a bike trackday and heard the same.

I havent ridden it yet but frankly Im not that impressed with many aspects of it

bit disapointing given the hoo haa about the new track

[scrivy]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1129345710#post1129345710 My thougths on HD ages ago.

If someone was to hit that wall and bounce back into the oncoming competitors doing 200kms+...... or a sidecar passenger lying on the track unconscious..... marshalls would not be able to let following competitors know in time.....

I shudder to think what would happen to bike racing at the track after that......

For a new track, my opinion is it is not intended for motorcycles.

[marioc]

Has the track been FIA certified.
I recall hearing it was going to be an FIA grade 2 track which is one level down from F1 standard.

[scroter]

the pit entrance has a square wall 'protected' by a tyre wall, which looks pretty solid to me.




Steve

track 2 at taupo has a similar problem at the chicane where the track joins the back straight it has a concrete wall lined with tyres, you shouldnt be out there but if someone does a kamakaze inside you space could run out real quick.

[steveyb]

Yes indeed and it is plenty not good also.
Airfences would improve the situation, but then that costs money.
Maybe we are entering an era seen all too often in the USA where the track owners profits supercede the safety of the users of the tracks.
Don't get me wrong, I am in business and profits are important, but one must protect ones customers first, so that they keep coming back!!! Surely.

Cheers

Steve

[scrivy]

Yes indeed and it is plenty not good also.
Airfences would improve the situation, but then that costs money.
Maybe we are entering an era seen all too often in the USA where the track owners profits supercede the safety of the users of the tracks.
Don't get me wrong, I am in business and profits are important, but one must protect ones customers first, so that they keep coming back!!! Surely.

Cheers

Steve

Track owners profits.........???? Dude, Taupo is in the red for millions..........

[White trash]

A point to consider for my mind, is that until the thing's actually built, there is no way of knowing exactly how much of a hazard it may be.

For example, I'm sure that when looking at the plans for Taupo, the final turn onto the pit strait probably looks fine with the pit wall situated where it is. Untill the track has actually been completed and more inportantly RIDDEN, there is no way of knowing for certain what lines will be ideal for quick lap times and therefore where the actual danger areas may be or what the speeds will be.

Just a thought. I know fuck all about engineering or the like.

[sidwyz]

Got link?.......



http://www.3news.co.nz/McIntyre-takes-the-lead/tabid/317/articleID/131969/cat/70/Default.aspx

Hampton downs footage is the last 20odd seconds.
I havn't been to the track yet but personally think where the crash occured is unlikely to cause many problems as it is on the inside reasonably out of the way imho.

[Reckless]

http://www.3news.co.nz/McIntyre-takes-the-lead/tabid/317/articleID/131969/cat/70/Default.aspx

OUCH!! far out that was some impact!!

[cowboyz]

from the uninformed, why isnt that wall come round onto the infield so create an arc to bounce off?

[javawocky]

Ok, that was a big one.

Probably relatively easy to fix.

From my own (limited) experience the only area is was a little nervous was the 'wall' on the other side of the track which - from memory - is similar. I wouldn't like to run wide and go motocrossing towards that tyre wall.

To be fair to the owners, it seams pretty safe otherwise. Hopefully they will respond to these concerns.

[Devil]

http://www.3news.co.nz/McIntyre-takes-the-lead/tabid/317/articleID/131969/cat/70/Default.aspx

Hampton downs footage is the last 20odd seconds.
I havn't been to the track yet but personally think where the crash occured is unlikely to cause many problems as it is on the inside reasonably out of the way imho.
Cheers for that, now I see where it is. I dont think thats a risk for bikes at all, but you could potentially do it in a sidecar if you collided like that. Hrm I cant see in my head how they could sort that one out apart from starting with a tyre wall, then graduating to the concrete wall. The wall has to start somewhere...

[Devil]

See attached. I cant find the really good pic, but this one will have to do.

[Quasievil]

from the uninformed, why isnt that wall come round onto the infield so create an arc to bounce off?

Because the track has design floors in it, that being just one of them.

As the racing evolves more of them will come out, but having that end wall there is nothing but a fuck up and the track should be closed until they sort it out.

that Driver is lucky he isnt DEAD

[SPman]

Exactly what I was thinking......

[Devil]

One fix would be to run that wall all the way from the middle of the inside of the turn so the whole thing is parallel with the track all the way up there.

[White trash]

Because the track has design floors in it, that being just one of them.

As the racing evolves more of them will come out, but having that end wall there is nothing but a fuck up and the track should be closed until they sort it out.

that Driver is lucky he isnt DEAD
Fucken floors?! You're joking?!

Someone must be held accountable. They should also look at those design flaws while they're at it :D

[Devil]

I wish they had designer floors in it instead of that gravel shit...

[javawocky]

One fix would be to run that wall all the way from the middle of the inside of the turn so the whole thing is parallel with the track all the way up there.

or just gradually curve the wall toward the center of the track.

[Devil]

or just gradually curve the wall toward the center of the track.

The problem is you're still going to end up with a steep angle at some point...

[huff3r]

The problem is you're still going to end up with a steep angle at some point...

But if the steep angle was further from the edge of the track it'd be safer wouldnt it?

[javawocky]

The problem is you're still going to end up with a steep angle at some point...

If you arc it the angle of collision will be less closer to the track, if you get really of line and head towards the more perpendicular section you will have more time to brake. Sure you are going to get lots of options :argue:

[Devil]

COmbined with another bunker it might work, but not if it's just grass. You dont slow down very well on grass with anything that has more than two wheels...

[scrivy]

People who've raced at Bathurst are probably barring up right about now.......
:niceone::drool:

[FROSTY]

A point to consider for my mind, is that until the thing's actually built, there is no way of knowing exactly how much of a hazard it may be.

For example, I'm sure that when looking at the plans for Taupo, the final turn onto the pit strait probably looks fine with the pit wall situated where it is. Untill the track has actually been completed and more inportantly RIDDEN, there is no way of knowing for certain what lines will be ideal for quick lap times and therefore where the actual danger areas may be or what the speeds will be.

Just a thought. I know fuck all about engineering or the like.
i'm sorry bro but specific to Taupo track -I was lucky enough to be taken fro a drive round it when it was a gravel pit. The construction and desighn team were well aware there was an issue with the final turn.
Their answer was to change it from the origonal lovely wide sweeper to the chicane we have now.
I suggested to them that the wall needed to be curved back over its last 50m so it hugged the pit lane rather than trackside--at that stage the last 50m hadn't been built. They were under major time constraints to get finished.
With HD there is a small window of opertunity to fix things before its finished.

[oyster]

I was at a street circuit safety review meeting once where the circuit "designers" explained how cars routinely oversteer after a big slide which puts them going at nearly full noise into the inside of a corner. This can happen from about a third of the way in right thru to the exit. As a result , no spectators were allowed within about 50 metres on the corner insides, plus, as we all know, flag points on our circuits are heavily barriered when seemingly safe on the inside of corners. This was 20 years ago so it's no new discovery! Once I had a huge long slide on a bucket mid corner, which, once I caught it, it speared me off into the infeild. So yes, it happens with bikes too, but obviously not as common.

[FROSTY]

The idea might be to curve the leading edge of EVERY barrier so tis not pointing dirrectly at oncoming vehicles.

[Reckless]

Would four rows of bundled covered tyres do the job?
I'm surprised every 90° concrete barrier close to the track doesn't have to have protection as standard?
A redesign of the angle makes sense but the above would work meantime?

[Fatjim]

Racing on race tracks is dangerous! Keep it to the roads.

[javawocky]

Racing on race tracks is dangerous! Keep it to the roads.

You have got to be kidding - I felt much safter on the track than on the ride back home, it was like culture shock.

[enigma51]

Racing on race tracks is dangerous! Keep it to the roads.

High FIVE ......

[sharky]

You have got to be kidding - I felt much safter on the track than on the ride back home, it was like culture shock.

Yes I think he is kidding:clap:

[javawocky]

Yes I think he is kidding:clap:

walked into that one :confused:

[lostinflyz]

that wall theres a lose lose situation. going head on in a car into a wall usually isn't too big. sideways is the problem. which your not too likely to do there as is. If the wall was curved to blunt the impact it'd throw the cars back into the racing line, which is way worse. As for bikes its not good either way.

Why there are walls near any corner (esp right angle walls or walls that can throw bikes/cars back on track) is crazy. Hampton downs is flawed from the off by not having any infield making it a requirement to have walls everywhere.

So much for WSBK aspirations i think.

[Quasievil]

that wall theres a lose lose situation. going head on in a car into a wall usually isn't too big. sideways is the problem. which your not too likely to do there as is. If the wall was curved to blunt the impact it'd throw the cars back into the racing line, which is way worse. As for bikes its not good either way.

Why there are walls near any corner (esp right angle walls or walls that can throw bikes/cars back on track) is crazy. Hampton downs is flawed from the off by not having any infield making it a requirement to have walls everywhere.

So much for WSBK aspirations i think.

Forget WSBK they (Hampton) have the rights but dont have the ten million cash, and they wouldnt run it there in its current state.

[FROSTY]

that wall theres a lose lose situation. going head on in a car into a wall usually isn't too big. sideways is the problem. which your not too likely to do there as is. If the wall was curved to blunt the impact it'd throw the cars back into the racing line, which is way worse. As for bikes its not good either way.
dude You really need to look at the vid--the car hit the "sharp" end of the wall almost cutting the engne bay in two.

[lostinflyz]

yea i saw the vid. The only other option there would be to curve the wall to deflect the impact which would have thrown both cars out onto the racing line.

my point about going head on is that race cars are usually designed or heavily modified to be very strong in the front compared to the sides and somewhat the rear, meaning a head on impact is much preferable to a side on. most car deaths and significant injuries in racing are through side impacts esp. since HANS devices have become mandatory in many parts.

[huff3r]

yea i saw the vid. The only other option there would be to curve the wall to deflect the impact which would have thrown both cars out onto the racing line.

my point about going head on is that race cars are usually designed or heavily modified to be very strong in the front compared to the sides and somewhat the rear, meaning a head on impact is much preferable to a side on. most car deaths and significant injuries in racing are through side impacts esp. since HANS devices have become mandatory in many parts.

I imagine if it was curved nicely then in that situation both cars would simply slam into it and slide alongside it, seeing as they were very near to travelling in the same direction as the barrier anyway...

[wharfy]

Shouldn't the end be buried ? Then it would become a nice ramp for cool spiralling jumps that are a feature of every car chase now day's.

[sAsLEX]

I'm only guessing where you're talking about and yes, it is the inside of a turn and no-where near the line a bike would be on (even racing).
Not ideal, but still not as bad as puke (hill), Taupo (coming onto front straight), manfield (onto front straight again).




Cheers for that, now I see where it is. I dont think thats a risk for bikes at all, but you could potentially do it in a sidecar if you collided like that. Hrm I cant see in my head how they could sort that one out apart from starting with a tyre wall, then graduating to the concrete wall. The wall has to start somewhere...

hmmm in a perfect world maybe........but you seriously can't "engineer" a track that has shit like this on it.

[scracha]

Compared to Puke, it's way safter.

Outside of final turn (there's gonna be lots more bikes losing the back on the gas) and the downhill left hander (currently T5) are far more of a problem. As previously stated, IMHO
- the wall at T5 needs pushed back about 10m.
- the final turn exit wall needs the first 20m of it pushed back about 20m as currently the joining bit is at a poor angle (they currently have tyres or some $hit there...stuff hitting them at 200 kays)
- the outside wall of the main straight needs smoothed out...woudn't cost much either. Nasty little metal posts sticking out a few inches.
- any motorcycle events there need to make it a black flag offence to cross the dotted pit lane entrance unless you're actually going to pit

[johan]

I just looked at the map over the track and realised the pit entrance is right at the fastest part of the front straight right after what looks like a corner!?

But hey, at least we have apartments!

[javawocky]

... and realised the pit entrance is right at the fastest part of the front straight right after what looks like a corner!?

Yeah, if they were to spend cash on fixing safety this should probably be the place to start, while undertaking a slower rider I was edged towards the pit entry myself, had to back off a little, but could easily become dangerous with fast moving traffic + slow moving pitters.

[steveyb]

What did I say?

[FROSTY]

Compared to Puke, it's way safter.
Thats actually not much of a compliment mate
One track has been around for 50 years or more the other is a custom desighned state of the art track

[gixerracer]

Thats actually not much of a compliment mate
One track has been around for 50 years or more the other is a custom desighned state of the art track

Puke is a dangerous f--king shit hole and H-Downs rocks,: by far the best track in NZ:2guns:

[White trash]

What did I say?
I dunno, "It's only gay if your balls touch"?

[scrivy]

I dunno, "It's only gay if your balls touch"?

You ever thought of racing sidecars Trashie......... with a mouth like that, you're a shoe in!!! :shutup::Punk::laugh:

[FROSTY]

Puke is a dangerous f--king shit hole and H-Downs rocks,: by far the best track in NZ:2guns:
tell that to the poor sod that almost got cut in half by the end of a barrier.
Theres a very old saying. "proof of the pudding is in the eating"
besides AGAIN why would anyone want to compare HD to Pukie. If comparing to anything maybee tawpoo

[steveyb]

You wouldn't even give me the courtesy of a reach around!!!!:shit:

[steveyb]

Anyway, all kidding aside (but somehow I wonder if WT is kidding), all I have to say about the pit entrance issue is: Roberto Loccatelli.
Nuf said.

[turboduck]

I dunno, "It's only gay if your balls touch"?

Fuckin LMAO!! Quote of the day goes to trash!!!!:laugh:

[scrivy]

I dunno, "It's only gay if your balls touch"?

er.... what about DP???? That's not gay!!:blink:

[Kickaha]

You ever thought of racing sidecars Trashie......... with a mouth like that, you're a shoe in!!! :shutup::Punk::laugh:

There was a Mair team on the drawing board but I think they pussied out

He did a few laps at Puke with Divvo so he's fully experienced

[Shaun]

After riding there a couple of weeks ago, I personally thought the place was great. I have read a lot of comments about this turn and that turn, but do NOT have any problems with the lay out untill NOW

I had not thought about it as Scrivy has put it re, Passenger on the ground, or even a rider having a mechanical that biffed them off on the main Streight

There is potentuall for rider contact coming up the hill and past the pits entrance, as racers are racers and will push the limits, (AND FIND THEM) and this could Definately create the scene that Scrivy suggests.

Re the car crash SPOT, It would be a mirracle fluke for a bike to be any where nere there, but shite does happen, I bet within a couple of weeks that wall is modified to a curve, rather than a stop spot, these people building this place are in the RED HUGE, so any trouble/danger zones that can be recognised and modified to keep the customer coming and the dollar turning over, is in there best interest to invest in, and they are not fools.

My thoughts on the main streight to help elliminate/minimise potentuall disater

Just before Pit lane entrance, CREAT a false chicane for bikes and Side car racing, to slow the flow, this will reduce any chance of the rider/passenger scenario that Scrizy has pointed out, and his oppinion on it is very valid.

Now it is time to go find Air Fence sponsors to ellimate all Danger in the Zone:sunny:

[White trash]

You ever thought of racing sidecars Trashie......... with a mouth like that, you're a shoe in!!! :shutup::Punk::laugh:
Interestingly, that's the plan eventually.

However the two people I trust most as pilots are not yet ready to make the move from solos.

One day mate......

[White trash]

There was a Mair team on the drawing board but I think they pussied out

He did a few laps at Puke with Divvo so he's fully experienced
Get fucked. I never pussied out, my stupid brother did. Although, I think he's in the midst of learning his lesson. Time will tell.

[FROSTY]

Re the car crash SPOT, It would be a mirracle fluke for a bike to be any where nere there, but shite does happen, I bet within a couple of weeks that wall is modified to a curve, rather than a stop spot, any trouble/danger zones that can be recognised and modified to keep the customer coming and the dollar turning over, is in there best interest to invest in, and they are not fools.

I guess the crux of the question I was asking was "if it is an issue isn't NOW the time to address it ?"
Now being whilst construction is still happening rather than after its finished.

[Devil]

http://www.hamptondowns.com/Contact_Us.wse

Hampton Downs MotorSport Park
Hampton Downs Rd
RD2 Te Kauwhata
Waikato 3782
New Zealand

Phone +64-9-280 6590 Office
021 1332 895 Tony Roberts
0274 827 542 Chris Watson
0274 430800 Jamie Kett

Email info@hamptondowns.com

[gixerracer]

Get fucked. I never pussied out, my stupid brother did. Although, I think he's in the midst of learning his lesson. Time will tell.

what a load of shit jimmy drew told me you guys had a go on one but had to stop because you were crying so much because you were chicken and he was only in third gear, what a fag wanabe u r

[White trash]

what a load of shit jimmy drew told me you guys had a go on one but had to stop because you were crying so much because you were chicken and he was only in third gear, what a fag wanabe u r
Nah, what actually happened was Drew knew it'd only be a matter of time before the Honda turned you completely raving gay and he didn't wanna miss out on any of the suprise butt sex you solo riders seem to enjoy so much.

Can't see the attraction myself.......

[codgyoleracer]

Have had a ride there and the layout is great. After reading this thread, - the main comment of pertinance is that if there was an incident (onto or during the front "straight" / curve), there is potential for bikes n riders bouncing back into the racing line of following unsighted riders.
I would be good to see the pit lane entry waaaaaay down at the bottom of the hill also & eliminate the whole yellow line / pit wall end thingy as it is at the mo. Pitlane exit is fine.
Overall though - pretty darn good for a start, great surface, testing corners, and it keeps you thinking. We are all very lucky to have a multi-million dollar facility like this built for us to play on.

[Shaun]

http://www.hamptondowns.com/Contact_Us.wse

Hampton Downs MotorSport Park
Hampton Downs Rd
RD2 Te Kauwhata
Waikato 3782
New Zealand

Phone +64-9-280 6590 Office
021 1332 895 Tony Roberts
0274 827 542 Chris Watson
0274 430800 Jamie Kett

Email info@hamptondowns.com



Maybe you know some one that Know's some one, that could promt some one to respond to my email sent on the 29th of November then please, sent to

info@hamptondownsridedays.co.nz

[Devil]

Maybe you know some one that Know's some one, that could promt some one to respond to my email sent on the 29th of November then please, sent to

info@hamptondownsridedays.co.nz
Will chase it up.

Edit: It seems i'm too slow!

[Shaun]

Will chase it up.

Edit: It seems i'm too slow!


Regards:done:

[scracha]

what a fag wanabe u r
Oh that's a classic.....
He's a fag wannabe......
So you're obviously the real deal ?
:jerry:

[carver]

dude You really need to look at the vid--the car hit the "sharp" end of the wall almost cutting the engne bay in two.

cause the guy behind him gave him no racing room

[Reckless]

cause the guy behind him gave him no racing room

Trouble is that happens a lot!

[carver]

Trouble is that happens a lot!

I know, and if i was driving, i would make him crash too

[RT527]

Because the track has design floors in it, that being just one of them.

As the racing evolves more of them will come out, but having that end wall there is nothing but a fuck up and the track should be closed until they sort it out.

that Driver is lucky he isnt DEAD

Considering that the Porsche driver was not at fault and he clearly tried his hardest to avoid the accident from occurring the Mini driver is lucky but the stupid bugger never had the race line through there and all but forced Bryce from the track at which point the Porsche driver saw the wall coming up and tried to get back on the track to avoid it giving the mini a pit manouver that our police force are incapable of doing due to legislation....but if they ever introduce it ...hes my obvious choice for their trainer.
And yes both drivers were ok, but the mini driver was transported as a status 3 to waikato hospital for observation.

[RT527]

cause the guy behind him gave him no racing room

what a crock of shit he didnt have to give him racing room, the white Porsche was cleared by the accident investigator at the track on the day, and ladies and gentleman this is racing you could invent the worlds safest track with air fence here and air fence there and every other conceivable safety measure and someone would still find some way of putting their car into some immovable object at speed or hit another car at speed.....there is not much wrong with the track but any suggestions will be looked at by the owners seriously they have put a lot into the track personally and they do want it to be the best for you guys to race round, so let them know if you have a prob I`m sure they will respond at some stage, they are very busy gentleman at the moment.

[Taz]

The guy in the mini got what he deserved for driving stupidly IMO.

[slowpoke]

The guy in the mini got what he deserved for driving stupidly IMO.

So for a minor racing incident the guys car is totalled and he's in hospital......the "punishment" isn't in proportion to the incident.

Which is kinda the point of Frosty's thread I think. You shouldn't pay a huge price for a minor transgression, be it your own or someone elses. You should be able to make a reasonable mistake and not have your life, or others lives put at risk. Sure, incidents are always going to happen but where possible the effects should be mitigated not exacerbated. Walls on the outside of corners, in this case a semi-blind corner thanks to the crest, really aren't super smart thinkin'.........but I can't see too much being done about it at this late stage in construction.

It's still an interesting, challenging track that NZ badly needs though.

[Blackflagged]

These are the guys that should have sponsored , the top of the hill at Puke!
http://www.titanium.com/titanium/orthopedic.cfm

[davebullet]

I saw it (on the news) and it looked bloody horrendous! Looked like the concrete wall started "end on". What about a 45 degree or bevel start to the wall? Should not be left like that or that's a fatality in waiting.

[Devil]

I saw it (on the news) and it looked bloody horrendous! Looked like the concrete wall started "end on". What about a 45 degree or bevel start to the wall? Should not be left like that or that's a fatality in waiting.

It is a 45 degree or so corner. You just cant see it from that video...

[Shaun]

Just go and the RIDE the track your selves, and make up your own minds.

Craig Shirrif and myself, think it is bloody brilliant:woohoo:

[scrivy]

Just go and the RIDE the track your selves, and make up your own minds.

Craig Shirrif and myself, think it is bloody brilliant:woohoo:

CRAIG WHO???????:pinch:

[RT527]

So for a minor racing incident the guys car is totalled and he's in hospital......the "punishment" isn't in proportion to the incident.

Which is kinda the point of Frosty's thread I think. You shouldn't pay a huge price for a minor transgression, be it your own or someone elses. You should be able to make a reasonable mistake and not have your life, or others lives put at risk. Sure, incidents are always going to happen but where possible the effects should be mitigated not exacerbated. Walls on the outside of corners, in this case a semi-blind corner thanks to the crest, really aren't super smart thinkin'.........but I can't see too much being done about it at this late stage in construction.

It's still an interesting, challenging track that NZ badly needs though.


As I said purely precautionary that he went to hospital.
to get the facts more correct, the mini understeered coming around the corner and ran wide so the Porsche took the chance to get passed him when the mini corrected he felt that he still had the line and drove into the side of the porsche....he was in the wrong and paid for it with a racing mistake which if it had of happened on any other track in nz would have seen both cars crash anyway.

I worked the Thunder in the park on the weekend and despite the fact that a whole heap of drivers couldnt tell what colour a red flag was it wasnt too bad a day with some very aggressive racing the resulted in very little crashs although we had a couple of big ones on the sunday well 1 to be exact, car on roof , driver was ok tho.

I had some fun driving Fire 1 which is one of the chase vehicles, and had a blast (read first time doing it) I learnt a whole heap and cant wait to have another go.
I`m going to be working fire/rescue at hampton this sunday so will tell what i think next week.

["D" FZ1]

Just go and the RIDE the track your selves, and make up your own minds.

Craig Shirrif and myself, think it is bloody brilliant:woohoo:

EXACTLY. We had a YAMAHA Ride Day at the AWESOME new HAMPTON DOWNS facility on Saturday Afternoon. I did about 20 laps on my FZ1-N and loved it (Apart from the normal F###TARDS that you get at these events that think they are Super Bike Riders)

The Track is COOL and it is going to be an AWESOME Facility once it is finished. A Big Congratulations to Tony and the team for building this AWESOME Facility that we so desperately need.

[I14]

I agree with Glenn the pit entrance at the bottom of the hill would be way safer. Where it is is damn near the fastest part of the course. On my trackday there I was flat out coming up the hill when suddenly I realised we must've been session over and the guys in front were pulling into pitlane. So like a turkey I braked real hard not to overshoot and turned off about halfway along the exit path. I then realised that it was bloody stupid as if someone was coming up fast on the racing line then he would've taken me out. This sort of thing wouldn't happen in a race but the point is why have the exit at the fastest spot?
BTW had a blast, magic track, great grip. Loved it..

[gixerracer]

CRAIG WHO???????:pinch:

he is the worlds most flexible rider he gave a great demo at the butr munro:shit:

[White trash]

he is the worlds most flexible rider he gave a great demo at the butr munro:shit:
You forgot to say "he's pretty good at sucking his own cock" too.

You're welcome :D

[cowboyz]

You forgot to say "he's pretty good at sucking his own cock" too.

You're welcome :D

fuck... is there anything that guy cant do???????

[White trash]

fuck... is there anything that guy cant do???????
Not that I'm aware of, no. In fact, he's kind of like New Zealands very own Chuck Norris if you will.

[Kickaha]

fuck... is there anything that guy cant do???????

Yeah, stay on the bike

[White trash]

Yeah, stay on the bike
Then there was this pot giving a kettle a good rogering........

[scrivy]

he is the worlds most flexible rider he gave a great demo at the butr munro:shit:

Fark!!!! He did a great demo of his flexibility at the butter Munro as well as racing at the Burt Munro!! This guy sounds like a legend.....

Mind you.... butter is soft......... :shutup::innocent:

[gixerracer]

Fark!!!! He did a great demo of his flexibility at the butter Munro as well as racing at the Burt Munro!! This guy sounds like a legend.....

Mind you.... butter is soft......... :shutup::innocent:

parently he isnt very wel edumarcaterd

[scracha]

fuck... is there anything that guy cant do???????
Yeah, change his KB name to CBRracer

[Shaun]

fuck... is there anything that guy cant do???????





Just ask his women!

:argue:

[gixerracer]

Just ask his women!

:argue:

i just left your's and she was very very pleased with me :Oi:

[Shaun]

i just left your's and she was very very pleased with me :Oi:

Exellent, means I will get a fantastic Steak meal tonight, as she will be sick of looking at small sausages, thanks mate.

[Ivan]

hahaha come into the thread to see what its about and Im reading about someone havfing a small sausage KB at its finest

[Cleve]

hahaha come into the thread to see what its about and Im reading about someone havfing a small sausage KB at its finest

exactly what he said. (Good one Ivan!)

[Ivan]

Hahaha nah its allright its funny you never know what to expect lol

[RT527]

What an absolutely brilliant technical track to drive, I got about 10 drives today chasing the start at a meeting today and all i can say is ....WOW very challenging track so many ways to corner and so much flaming room to do it ...there's about 4 places on the track where if you do it right are suburb places to make a passing maneuver stick.
Also where the mini incident was....that part of the track isn't as great an angle as it looks on tv.
Its about 20-25 degs to the track and is roughly where you just start getting it back in shape if you have been going quick around turn 10(sweeper) and there is plenty of room to get about 3 and a 1/2 cars wide at that point.

Looks good , Drives Great , and I had a freaking Brilliant time out there today.

I'm going to enjoy this track.

[CHOPPA]

.................................................. ....

[Number One]

That's chilling to read.

[White trash]

That's chilling to read.

I can't be bothered reading through the thread again as I'm pretty sure I spouted a heap of shit.

I do know that the spot where the tragic accident happened today is a different piece of track to what the OP was concerned about.

That being said, I have listened to a number of different peoples concerns over the spot where the accident DID occur and now can see their point as clear as day.

[Kiwi Graham]

Is there any grounding to the theory that HD was planned to run in the anticlockwise direction?
And not knowing the facts that has brought this to the debating table again, if it had been run in the opposite direction would this of happened?

[Marknz]

shit.........................


and I haven't ridden the track yet, so I know fuck all, but is the start/finish line too close to turn one? If you have racers going balls out to get the the line and the chequered flag at the end of a race, do you practically have room to brake before T1?

[Deano]

shit.........................


and I haven't ridden the track yet, so I know fuck all, but is the start/finish line too close to turn one? If you have racers going balls out to get the the line and the chequered flag at the end of a race, do you practically have room to brake before T1?

After watching Craig and James going over the line at the Nats, yes - there is room to brake, but not enough to stay out of the kitty litter.

It might not have been the problem in this tragedy though.

[10bikekid]

Sad to hear and thoughts go out to the family,

Having ridden Hampton several times it has always seemed strange that you pass the pit entrance wall at about 220kph, and that it is at right angle to you (though admittedly way off the racing line)

Hope that was not the cause and even it wasn't, cant see it as being safe

My wife has just banned me from the Honda track day there tomorrow :shit:

[sidecar bob]

A prominent racer & multiple NZ motorcycle champion was consulted about the track while it was still bare dirt & voiced serious concerns about the wall to the L/H side on the front straight.

[Cr1MiNaL]

The owners should sort that kink out, thats a civil engineering disaster. Riding a superbike over it is evidently dangerous, more so in the wet as I have personally experienced. Peace be to the rider and hope the witnesses and Darren/Rachel and HDRD's team recover alright from the trauma. I hear they dealt with it very professionally as I would expect nothing less of Darren.

................................................

no further comment.

[c4.]

My wife has just banned me from the Honda track day there tomorrow :shit:[/QUOTE]

I hope this is not too soon.

I was there and called my wife, obvious melt down ensued.
I went on to explain that it's 'managed risk', of course riding at 200kph+ is dangerous.

Walking on the pavement at midnight in Ponsonby has cost people their legs!!

Hampton Downs ride days run a great day.
Very professional and super safety concious.

The poor rider down will leave a scar in my soul forever.
To watch the first people there put their hands on their heads straight away chilled me to the bone.

I will be back there next week.

Nothing will make you safe from death.

Huge respect and condolences to his family.

[Cleve]

Deepest sympathies to friends and family and all who were there at the time.
I have done track days at Hampton Downs and think it is a great track but I also have concerns with that main straight - the kink, the bump and the wall very close to the side. Was talking to Robbie Bugden at one of them and he reckoned that it would be pretty "gnarly in the wet"...

[10bikekid]

My wife has just banned me from the Honda track day there tomorrow :shit:

I hope this is not too soon.

I was there and called my wife, obvious melt down ensued.
I went on to explain that it's 'managed risk', of course riding at 200kph+ is dangerous.

Walking on the pavement at midnight in Ponsonby has cost people their legs!!

Hampton Downs ride days run a great day.
Very professional and super safety concious.

The poor rider down will leave a scar in my soul forever.
To watch the first people there put their hands on their heads straight away chilled me to the bone.

I will be back there next week.

Nothing will make you safe from death.

Huge respect and condolences to his family.[/QUOTE]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree completely but its not allways ones self that has to be considered.

I was at the Thundercross Dirt Bike Park, child fatality a while ago and you cant help but feel and Its never good, and hard to comprehend how those closer feel

So I guess we have to say, do your best to Ride safe guys

And Ill sure be there as support tomorrow and out of respect

[lostinflyz]

the outer wall there and the outer wall at levels after the esses have the same arguments, and very similar issues (puke looks kinda similar (albeit no bump per say, but i have never ridden it). There not going anywhere and to put an air fence there only means if you get out near it and clip it with a bar your guaranteed a big accident.

unfortunately the tracks are pretty set in stone (its just a fact), and all you can do is ride to the best of your abilities and hope luck stays with you.

All you need to do is look at peter lenz accident from indy a couple of months back to see how sometimes terrible, unlucky things are going to happen, no matter what we do with rider and track safety. More often than not all we can do is band together and support those who are hurt by such events, and realize there isn't always someone or thing to blame.

Condolences to the riders family and friends.

[FROSTY]

the outer wall there and the outer wall at levels after the esses have the same arguments, and very similar issues (puke looks kinda similar (albeit no bump per say, but i have never ridden it). There not going anywhere and to put an air fence there only means if you get out near it and clip it with a bar your guaranteed a big accident.

unfortunately the tracks are pretty set in stone (its just a fact), and all you can do is ride to the best of your abilities and hope luck stays with you.

All you need to do is look at peter lenz accident from indy a couple of months back to see how sometimes terrible, unlucky things are going to happen, no matter what we do with rider and track safety. More often than not all we can do is band together and support those who are hurt by such events, and realize there isn't always someone or thing to blame.

Condolences to the riders family and friends.
Sorry lost I don't agree. Pukie,levels etc are established tracks that have been around for a very long time.
HD on the other hand when I origonally posted and is still now in the construction stages.
9 months ago was a better time but even now is a time to look at the track safety through both a motorcycl.ists and a car racers point of view and rectify matters.

[Drew]

Perhaps Shaun needs to get clubs not to race there, since there is a chance that motorcycle racers could get hurt.

[Quasievil]

Perhaps Shaun needs to get clubs not to race there, since there is a chance that motorcycle racers could get hurt.

mmmm I dunno, I think a motorcycle racer on a track (a new one) should be able to find the limits of his/ her motorcycle without having to worry about hitting a wall whilst recovering from a JUMP
it aint the IOM, its a purpose built race facility.

[Kickaha]

Sorry lost I don't agree. Pukie,levels etc are established tracks that have been around for a very long time.
HD on the other hand when I origonally posted and is still now in the construction stages.
9 months ago was a better time but even now is a time to look at the track safety through both a motorcycl.ists and a car racers point of view and rectify matters.

The bit you were talking about in your original post isn't where the accident happened though is it?

Pukie has a had a few fatals as well and I'd be more worried about the hill at Pukie than any bump at Hampton downs


mmmm I dunno, I think a motorcycle racer on a track (a new one) should be able to find the limits of his/ her motorcycle without having to worry about hitting a wall whilst recovering from a JUMP
it aint the IOM, its a purpose built race facility.

How many laps have motorcyclists done around the place without dieing since the place was built?

[Quasievil]

How many laps have motorcyclists done around the place without dieing since the place was built?

Doesnt matter, there should be a run off not a wall.

[FROSTY]

Pukie has a had a few fatals as well and I'd be more worried about the hill at Pukie than any bump at Hampton downs
How many laps have motorcyclists done around the place without dieing since the place was built?
Pukie is -50? years old --HD is a brand new track purpose built to meet international standards.
How many laps have bikes done of pukie compared to the fatality rate.
If just playing with number I bet HD's rate is higher than pukie's
NOT that thats anything to gloat about. Im NOT in any way suggesting pukie is an icon for bike racing safety.

[Kiwi Graham]

I'm not so sure the 'wall' is the problem.

I've been lucky enough to have ridden on a lot of circuits in the UK and Europe as well has here and Aussie. Pretty much all of them have a 'wall' on either one or both sides of the start finish straight or at least where the pits are (usually the same place) and not all start finish straights are straight either.

The one race and few track days I've done at Hampton Downs have drawn my attention to the hump ,yump or jump which ever you want to call it. I cant say I've checked the clocks as I hit it but I must be doing in the 250 region. My top speed gizmo on the dash say I hit 293 as I hit the picks for T1 (Sheriffs).

The two ways I've found to manage it are to either grip the tank with my legs, in which case the whole bike leaves the ground or don't grip the tank in which case I leave the seat! I've also tried tapping the back brake but it didn't make much difference. Either way I make sure I hit that jump upright and going in a straight line.

The bike has never got out of shape other than a we wiggle as it lands sometimes. The only other circuit I got clean 'air' is Cadwell park however it is at a much slower speed.

I'm no ground works expert but how hard and how long would it take to 'skim' that 'jump' off, removing what is a clear concern for both bike and car?

Just my 2c

[sidecar bob]

Im NOT in any way suggesting pukie is an icon for bike racing safety.

Well thank fuck for that!!

[Kickaha]

HD is a brand new track purpose built to meet international standards. .

Every track in NZ is built to internationals standards, some just have a higher grading than others, built to "International standards" means bugger all


Doesnt matter, there should be a run off not a wall.

You're describing a point at every every track in NZ with the possible exception of Teretonga

[Quasievil]

You're describing a point at every every track in NZ with the possible exception of Teretonga

Probably, I ok with that thought if its the case however, I like seeing guys screaming the living fuck out of their machines, if they fuck up I prefer a wall or something else to hit wasnt there as a permanent fixture.............personally anyway:yes:

[Biggles08]

You're describing a point at every every track in NZ with the possible exception of Teretonga

oh I don't know bro...I reckon you could hit the tires at the elbow if you really wanted too! :innocent:

[CHOPPA]

Every track in NZ is built to internationals standards, some just have a higher grading than others, built to "International standards" means bugger all



You're describing a point at every every track in NZ with the possible exception of Teretonga

You cant comment cause you drive a bloody car! :sunny:

[Kickaha]

You cant comment cause you drive a bloody car! :sunny:

Not me, I let someone else twist the throttle, I have my eyes shut most of the time

[sidecar bob]

You cant comment cause you drive a bloody car! :sunny:

Well you cant comment, because you have no sunglasses. I know this because my missus has them!!

[Pumba]

Is there any grounding to the theory that HD was planned to run in the anticlockwise direction?

Yes that was the original intention to have the track ruinning in the opposite direction, but it was reversed, not sure of the reasons or when this was done in the design procces.

I still think there would have been an issue. Just the wall would have been on your right rather than your left.


The owners should sort that kink out, thats a civil engineering disaster

Clearly, like many other people, you have no fucken idea what civil engineers actually do for a crust. Yes it sounds like the vertical geometry in terms of the crest curve could be better (personally on the triumph I had no issues, but my top speed is less than a litre sports bike) but this was only a contributing factor to the death of the rider. The cause of his death is wall, and the civil engineering in that portion of the track is sound (track pavemnet, walls, eathworks, kerbs, other suporting infrastructure).

It is a track design issue, possibly created by the track owners by engaging people with insuficient experience in race track design and construction (I cant think of any NZ consultants that would have this experience, we just dont build enough tracks).

By Tony Roberts (track owner) own admission durring a open day at the cinstruction phase, the design was changing all the time durring cinstruction and they felt like at times they were just making it up as they went along.


I'm no ground works expert but how hard and how long would it take to 'skim' that 'jump' off, removing what is a clear concern for both bike and car?

Not hard, just expensive and time consuming.

My condolances to the riders friends and families.

[cowboyz]

Not hard, just expensive and time consuming.

.

its not motoX. its superbikes. There shouldnt be jumps on the track. Cost shouldnt be an issue in fixing it. It needs to be fixed. Simple as that.

[Gwinch]

its not motoX. its superbikes. There shouldnt be jumps on the track. Cost shouldnt be an issue in fixing it. It needs to be fixed. Simple as that.

Tell that to this guy.

<img src="http://www.argyllmotorsports.com/_images/accessory/510jump.jpg">

[Gwinch]

its not motoX. its superbikes. There shouldnt be jumps on the track. Cost shouldnt be an issue in fixing it. It needs to be fixed. Simple as that.

Tell that to this guy.

http://www.argyllmotorsports.com/_images/accessory/510jump.jpg

... but seriously, the jump isn't altogether that much of an issue. The tragedy on Friday was just a case of all that could've gone wrong going wrong all at once.

[jellywrestler]

Clearly, like many other people, you have no fucken idea what civil engineers actually do for a crust.
I've heard that they leave the same undies on for about five days, two to three if they're currie eaters!

[cowpoos]

its not motoX. its superbikes. There shouldnt be jumps on the track..

Have you seen brands hatch?

[cowpoos]

Tell that to this guy.

Didn't see this post....thats brands hatch.....the bikers love it!!

In saying that...I would like to here what the fast guys think of the bump....

[DEATH_INC.]

Not that I'm super fast, but I kinda like the 'hump', but like Quasi (and others) I have a real issue with the combo of hump, speed, corner and wall with no runoff.
Also, with my crap MX type lines, I'm going over it fairly straight.
I know that some of us sadly predicted this would happen sooner or later. :facepalm:

[Mort]

Didn't see this post....thats brands hatch.....the bikers love it!!

In saying that...I would like to here what the fast guys think of the bump....

Thats Cadwell Park actually...... and it aint no bump !

HRnFPgxj2BY

[TOTO]

Thats Cadwell Park actually...... and it aint no bump !

did you see a wall there ?

[lostinflyz]

from what ive seen the walls pretty close to the outside, where the camera man is behind it. That jump their is pretty straight though. If you wanna talk about walls and trees near a track watch a whole lap of cadwell.

Me i like the bumps and kicks, still kinda gutted they took the one outta levels. Sure it means you can't take it as fast a physically possible but it adds character. The ramp at hampton downs is one of the few entertaining points on the track.

[Kiwi Graham]

did you see a wall there ?

Yep, there is a steel 'wall' either side with about 4-5 metres run of on either side.

It is Cadwell park and as mentioned just a few hundred meters from this spot is a tight right hand hairpin with about 2 feet of run off to the outside.

The speed your doing by the time you hit 'the Mountain' is far less than the jump at HD, prob doing about 90-100k's

[lukemillar]

did you see a wall there ?

Actually Cadwell is one of the UK tracks that constantly gets a bashing due to it's narrowness with a lack of run-off areas.

[jasonzc]

Clearly, like many other people, you have no fucken idea what civil engineers actually do for a crust.


But shouldnt Engineer as proffessionals seen this comming? Afterall i think the modern engineer should have a wider perspective on things. And one of the key ethics to engineering is to protect safeguard human life as defined by IPENZ?

hahahah im sure the real world will prob work differently than what the stupid uni tells us though.

[p.dath]

I'm not a racer, so please excuse my naive comments.

The "features" of a track are what make it interesting, and hopefully provide the challenge to the riders. And those "features" help separate the good riders from the great riders, and give spectators something exciting to see.

Unfortunately "features" are not forgiving on riders if they have an attention lapse, get distracted or experience a machine failure of some kind. But that is part of the inherent risk - a risk I'm sure every racer knows about before they line up. And every racer has the choice to pull out if they feel the risk is greater than they can accept.

Consider a drag strip. Very fast. Straight. Very predictable. Accidents still happen. I can only watch drag racing for a little while. I get bored of it quickly.

Consider Nascar. Very fast. Very predictable corners. Throttle flat to the floor. Lots of accidents happen. I find Nascar boring.

It simply is not possible to create any high speed zone that you can guarantee will result in no accidents. And for me, those features that cause a variation in the racing are what make it interesting to watch.

And I guess part of entering a track with features is recognising your own skills. For me, with poor skills, I'd be acting like a nana. I recognise I don't have the skills to race, especially on such a track with such challenging features.
But racers do have practice sessions ... to allow them to work on improving their weak areas.

With the greatest of respect for recent events, and accepting that we don't want unreasonable risk present (risk that can not be planned for or mitigated), lets not over-react to the track design and remove the excitement.


As I say, I'm not a racer, so please excuse my naive comments.

[MSTRS]

I'm not a racer, so please excuse my naive comments.

The "features" of a track are what make it interesting, and hopefully provide the challenge to the riders. And those "features" help separate the good riders from the great riders, and give spectators something exciting to see.

...

And neither am I. But I do a fair bit of marshalling, so see a lot, trackside.
Features, as you put it, are great for everyone, BUT...
No-one can protect from everything that can/will go wrong, but putting something that is almost guaranteed to kill you, adjacent to such a feature, instead of something less dangerous like a runoff, is just irresponsible.

[FROSTY]

Guys you are all using old established tracks as your examples.Cadwell for one has a similar reputation in the UK as Pukie has in NZ for being unforgiving.
Dpath -lets put it this way. Hey crashes are all part of the deal when racing. You accept there is an element of risk you might get hurt,your bike trashed and hey we all know people die. NO racer is naive enough to think there isn't a risk.
However when desighning a brand new track you need to remove all the "this IS going to kill someone" elements.
You may or maynot recall the fuss that the then head of the AMCC road race committee kicked up about T14 at Taupo where a rider could possibly punch out a corner of the pit wall if he got things badly wrong.
Taupo management at the desighn stage did what they could to reduce the risk by reshaping the corner from a fast (200km/h) sweeper into a chicane.
Perhaps a solution for HD is a bike chicane sort of like at Levels (without the solid barrier) or maybee bikes need to run reverse direction so the bump isn't so critical.

[BoristheBiter]

I'm not a racer, so please excuse my naive comments.


As I say, I'm not a racer, so please excuse my naive comments.

Im not racer and like you do not have the experience to go that fast on the track.

I use the track days that i attend to better my riding skills. sometimes i push it a little to far but stay on track but if i lose it completely the last thing i want to be looking at is a concret wall.

I have hit that bump before and felt the front lift so if I can do it it mustn't be all that hard.

I know there is risk involved with any sport but some can be avoided.

[CHOPPA]

Going over the jump in the rain at full throttle then turning on the painted grid lines is interesting! Id like to run the track in reverse, the only concern might be the run off into the corkscrewy bit? But thats probably heaps anyway. Its not gonna happen though lol

Im happy for the track to stay as it is but air fence would be nice just in case. You shouldnt be getting snagged either, if your that wide your in trouble regardless

[FROSTY]

Hey folks the way I see it the bike racers and track dayers have a couple of options.
1) the kb way--whinge /whine bleat and complain--the KB way or
2) USE the pool of experience we have here to offer possible sollutions.
My thoughts are to either reverse the track direction for bikes or have some slowing mechanism before the "hump" so its affect is reduced to acceptable levels.

[p.dath]

2) USE the pool of experience we have here to offer possible sollutions.
My thoughts are to either reverse the track direction for bikes or have some slowing mechanism before the "hump" so its affect is reduced to acceptable levels.

We could have a double hump, and call it the breast jump. :lol:

[White trash]

Hey folks the way I see it the bike racers and track dayers have a couple of options.
1) the kb way--whinge /whine bleat and complain--the KB way or
2) USE the pool of experience we have here to offer possible sollutions.
My thoughts are to either reverse the track direction for bikes or have some slowing mechanism before the "hump" so its affect is reduced to acceptable levels.

Fucken reversed track would be cool. Imagine the mental wheelies Litre bikes would be prone for out of the hairpin and onto the start finish straight.

[Quasievil]

Fucken reversed track would be cool. Imagine the mental wheelies Litre bikes would be prone for out of the hairpin and onto the start finish straight.All said without a internet connection lol

[White trash]

All said without a internet connection lol

Got a local connection, just can't get on our cunting server in Auckland.

[Chrislost]

Going over the jump in the rain at full throttle then turning on the painted grid lines is interesting! Id like to run the track in reverse, the only concern might be the run off into the corkscrewy bit? But thats probably heaps anyway. Its not gonna happen though lol

Im happy for the track to stay as it is but air fence would be nice just in case. You shouldnt be getting snagged either, if your that wide your in trouble regardless

I think coming out of the sweeper in reverse would be a bit shadey... same with what is currently turn 2

[Gremlin]

Yeah, bit unsafe where chrislost says, if ran in reverse, possibly also what is currently turn 3, over the rise.

[FROSTY]

Would moving the catchfence posts to the inside of the wall help? Would having them heavilly padded help

[Kickaha]

Why is the "bump" there? I find it hard to believe it was design feature when if you go out a bit wider you can miss it

Reverse circuit coming up onto the start finish straight if you fuck it up you can still go into a wall just the speed will be slower and I don't think the track will be quite as interesting

[yachtie10]

I think coming out of the sweeper in reverse would be a bit shadey... same with what is currently turn 2

I have stood there (turn six) while Darren rode it in reverse
Scary in the current setup but Darren would know more

[cowboyz]

who designed this track? I would have thought if I was designing a track from scratch I would put it in the plans to run it both ways for variety.

[Devil]

I've been very silent through this for good reason, and it's going to stay that way.
But forget reverse direction.

[Blackflagged]

Doesnt matter, there should be a run off not a wall.

Yep
It`s built now.They are easy corners.But it is possible to have a Track without concrete walls on outside 2 meters from the track.
Some of the older tracks were built when bike were 1/3 the power they are now.You didn`t have to wear a helmit road riding, or were a belt in your car.

[Cleve]

The bump is wicked and scary (I have done track days on my Fireblade). I am curious to know what bike the unfortunate rider was on?

[NinjaBoy]

The bump is wicked and scary (I have done track days on my Fireblade). I am curious to know what bike the unfortunate rider was on?

He was on a CBR600 according to the article :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10684284

[cowboyz]

I really object to that article on quite a few levels.

1. racetracks are so often referred to as the place to push the boundaries in a safe environment. Are they now saying that the racetrack is not the place to push yourself. maybe it would be more responisble of them to have signposts and suggested speed limits on each corner.

2. I knew Tim. Despite taking a few lines of text out of context on an online forum he was an extremely level headed and caucious rider on the road. I never had the chance to ride wtih him on the track but he was no slug on the road. He definitely had some skills and a desire to be exilarated. I imagine that he was pushing his limits on the track - where it has been promoted to push your limits and paid a price without considering the cost of admission.

Seems very likely the organisers are covers their arses. No surprise. Next week they will be promoting how safety concious they are - and no need for any repairs or air fences.

[BoristheBiter]

I really object to that article on quite a few levels.

1. racetracks are so often referred to as the place to push the boundaries in a safe environment. Are they now saying that the racetrack is not the place to push yourself. maybe it would be more responisble of them to have signposts and suggested speed limits on each corner.

2. I knew Tim. Despite taking a few lines of text out of context on an online forum he was an extremely level headed and caucious rider on the road. I never had the chance to ride wtih him on the track but he was no slug on the road. He definitely had some skills and a desire to be exilarated. I imagine that he was pushing his limits on the track - where it has been promoted to push your limits and paid a price without considering the cost of admission.

Seems very likely the organisers are covers their arses. No surprise. Next week they will be promoting how safety concious they are - and no need for any repairs or air fences.

+1

All you will see is the arse covering by all involved.
The media always take things out of context and put it forward in a way they want it told.

if the track is as safe as they are saying (i know there are always risks) then how did he die?

[scracha]

I really object to that article on quite a few levels.


Plus they implied he was at fault

Plus there's no MotoGP races in New Zealand so it's not like air fences have been removed.

Plus they're going on about amateur riders returning to the circuit. AFAIK there's only 2 non-amateur road riders in New Zealand.

Plus they've tanken soundbytes from all and sundry

[Sketchy_Racer]

if the track is as safe as they are saying (i know there are always risks) then how did he die?

It's a race track, they are all dangerous. You could bubble wrap an entire track and someone would still die, it is just the nature of the sport! It is a calculated risk to ride motorcycles, let alone ride them stupidly fast around a race track.

Hampton Downs is not the danger track it is being portrayed as, sure it has some flaws, show me a track that doesn't! The pit wall at manfeild is pretty much in the same boat, the on difference being that there isn't the bump.

Personally I love the bump, I think it adds a cool character to the track, the biggest problem with it is that when people get a scare from it and shut the throttle, it makes the stability problems worse. Keep it pinned and it almost doesn't exist! Well, on a 600 anyway.

RIP Tim Porter

[Robert Taylor]

My condolences go out to Tims family.

An expert analysis of the setup of the bike will I think tell the story of why as I heard the bike got into quite a tankslapper. Its all about setting the bike up for the demands the circuit places upon it. If the setup of the bike was in some way deficient then that would explian rather a lot

[Peter Smith]

My condolences go out to Tims family.

An expert analysis of the setup of the bike will I think tell the story of why as I heard the bike got into quite a tankslapper. Its all about setting the bike up for the demands the circuit places upon it. If the setup of the bike was in some way deficient then that would explian rather a lot

That's why you should get off the computer and finish rebuilding my rear shock. :laugh::laugh:

[Biggles08]

My condolences go out to Tims family.

An expert analysis of the setup of the bike will I think tell the story of why as I heard the bike got into quite a tankslapper. Its all about setting the bike up for the demands the circuit places upon it. If the setup of the bike was in some way deficient then that would explian rather a lot

Although Robert, this would imply it is unsafe to take ones roadbike off the road and go hell for leather on a race track without having had your suspension set up for the track (proportionate to your skill level). So really you are saying the track is unsafe at this point in these circumstances are you not?

Personally I think Glen S was more on the money in this instance and if you 'back off' at the wrong time you will exasperate the situation. Another contributing factor no one has mentioned was where he was on the track...as I saw it he was too wide coming into that corner and most likely it all turned to custard very quickly as that kink is blind coming up the hill. I remember the first time I went around hampton I noticed that and made a mental note to be facing the right direction before the 'hump' in question.

It is fun and kinda cool getting a little wobble on over there but I would be suprised if it isn't removed now...and I wouldn't be upset about it either.

[sAsLEX]

I remember the first time I went around hampton I noticed that and made a mental note to be facing the right direction before the 'hump' in question.



Which corner on this track will cause you to slam into a wall if you fail to take a corner?

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&amp;source=s_q&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=Automotodrom+ Brno&amp;sll=49.205458,16.450911&amp;sspn=0.013234,0.05493 2&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=Automotodrom+Brno&amp;hnear=&amp;t=h&amp;cid=1552 5844137064999371&amp;ll=49.20442,16.450825&amp;spn=0.01962 7,0.036478&amp;z=14&amp;output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&amp;source=embed&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode=&amp;q=Automotodro m+Brno&amp;sll=49.205458,16.450911&amp;sspn=0.013234,0.054 932&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;hq=Automotodrom+Brno&amp;hnear=&amp;t=h&amp;cid=15 525844137064999371&amp;ll=49.20442,16.450825&amp;spn=0.019 627,0.036478&amp;z=14" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

[BoristheBiter]

It's a race track, they are all dangerous. You could bubble wrap an entire track and someone would still die, it is just the nature of the sport! It is a calculated risk to ride motorcycles, let alone ride them stupidly fast around a race track.

Hampton Downs is not the danger track it is being portrayed as, sure it has some flaws, show me a track that doesn't! The pit wall at manfeild is pretty much in the same boat, the on difference being that there isn't the bump.

Personally I love the bump, I think it adds a cool character to the track, the biggest problem with it is that when people get a scare from it and shut the throttle, it makes the stability problems worse. Keep it pinned and it almost doesn't exist! Well, on a 600 anyway.

RIP Tim Porter



As i said there are always risks but to have a design or construction fault, and face it there is a fault, is a different story all togeather, and knowing about the problem and not having safety in place is negligence.

You can harpe on about Manfields wall or Pukekohe's but how long have the been running to how many deaths.
I am not talking crashes as there are always crashes when on track, but deaths cased by the track.

[cowboyz]

Hampton Downs is not the danger track it is being portrayed as, sure it has some flaws, show me a track that doesn't! The pit wall at manfeild is pretty much in the same boat, the on difference being that there isn't the bump.

HD is a track that has been engineeered and built in the modern day.. Not 40-50 years ago. and designed for bikes. thats like says. jumping out of a plane naked and skydiving are the same thing... just one there isnt a parachute.


RIP Tim Porter
.................................................. .....

My condolences go out to Tims family.

An expert analysis of the setup of the bike will I think tell the story of why as I heard the bike got into quite a tankslapper. Its all about setting the bike up for the demands the circuit places upon it. If the setup of the bike was in some way deficient then that would explian rather a lot
I am never riding a bike without ohlins again! its just far too dangerous!

[Robert Taylor]

.................................................. .....

I am never riding a bike without ohlins again! its just far too dangerous!

That is not what I am implying, nor should such a flippant statement be made in light of a familys loss. In fact that bike had an Ohlins rear shock fitted. But what of the external settings? What about the front settings? That is what I am asking. That bump can set up some undesirable dynamics and as Sketchy stated rider reaction needs to be ''correct''. There are many factors that likely will have contributed to this tragedy but also the settings ( sag, spring preload, clicker settings, basic geometry, tyre pressures etc ) that will have needed to be in a sensible zone.

[Marknz]

I've been led to believe that keeping on the gas and gripping the tank with your knees is the best rider option in this instance. Aside from the bike set up that Robert is referring to, is that correct? Would more experienced racers like to comment?

[cowboyz]

crashing while pushing yourself is eniviable. its the cost of the crash that is in question here and apparently ... dying at hampton downs is acceptable if you ...

have recently brought a honda.

post on kiwibiker

ride as fast as you think you can on a racetrack

the article is shite. fullstop.

[White trash]

crashing while pushing yourself is eniviable. its the cost of the crash that is in question here and apparently ... dying at hampton downs is acceptable if you ...

have recently brought a honda.

post on kiwibiker

ride as fast as you think you can on a racetrack

the article is shite. fullstop.

That's how I read it too. Disgusting journalism.

[MSTRS]

So this is the first death at HD? At a place that motorcyclists have been warning about? That, right there, should be enough for the track owners to make some changes at that point to reduce the risk. Whether the track owners are negligent, in not addressing this before, is a matter of conjecture. But if they do nothing, now, then they will be.
Like all such events, there is no one thing to be pointed at, as the cause. And of all the myriad factors that could/were involved, the only one that can be changed is 'point of impact'.

[Robert Taylor]

So this is the first death at HD? At a place that motorcyclists have been warning about? That, right there, should be enough for the track owners to make some changes at that point to reduce the risk. Whether the track owners are negligent, in not addressing this before, is a matter of conjecture. But if they do nothing, now, then they will be.
Like all such events, there is no one thing to be pointed at, as the cause. And of all the myriad factors that could/were involved, the only one that can be changed is 'point of impact'.

When you say ''myriad factors involved'' I believe more than point of impact can be changed.

There is an issue with the finish line as proven by Craig Shirriffs and James Smith during the Nationals. Can anyone confirm if that has been sorted?

Yes that bump is a challenge but Im against all the blame being accorded to the track owners. One fatality is one fatality too many but have there been multiple injuries and fatalities as a result of that bump?

The thought Id like to instil or rather the question to raise is how many accidents are caused by machine setup that is a little ''wanting''??

It is indeed totally correct that myriad factors would have been involved.

[DMack]

I can confirm that the start finish line issue has not been addressed fully - amcc F1's 3 weeks ago I had it pinned to pass another rider on the line, then ended up playing sand castles at the beach on turn 1....:facepalm:, easy to reflect back on and think doh we know about the issue what was i thinking, but should we have to slow before the line - i think not. Other than that i love HD. My 2c worth.

[c4.]

Great day today.
i think the track is NOT a villain
ride at your own ' managed risk '
Or don't.
up to you.
mho
c4

[Robert Taylor]

I can confirm that the start finish line issue has not been addressed fully - amcc F1's 3 weeks ago I had it pinned to pass another rider on the line, then ended up playing sand castles at the beach on turn 1....:facepalm:, easy to reflect back on and think doh we know about the issue what was i thinking, but should we have to slow before the line - i think not. Other than that i love HD. My 2c worth.

Fully in agreeance there Damien. It was emphatically proven 8 months ago that the finish line is in the wrong place.

Why has HD management appear to have done nothing about it????

[Bykmad]

The start line has been moved back by 50 metres. This is plainly evident by the sand blast marks on the circuit.

[Kickaha]

Fully in agreeance there Damien. It was emphatically proven 8 months ago that the finish line is in the wrong place.


Do the cars have the same issue?

Even on the sidecar where our speed is slower than the Superbikes we can't cross the finish line at full throttle and make T1

[PirateJafa]

The start line has been moved back by 50 metres. This is plainly evident by the sand blast marks on the circuit.

I thought that was from the last time the sidecars went around?

[Cr1MiNaL]

I thought that was from the last time the sidecars went around?

No AMCC clearly moved the start finish back half way. The start / finish line is not the issue. That has been rectified, I speak from personal experience. The issue or debate here is about the hump just before the front straight. I love the feeling of flying over it but I didn't realise the consequences were that severe if you got it wrong going round there. It's just like Puke. Not that it's going to stop me, I just feel with all the diggers and equiptment there already, now would be a good time as any to even it out before the next round - which happens to be exactly a month away today, were having some great weather.

[CHOPPA]

No AMCC clearly moved the start finish back half way. The start / finish line is not the issue. That has been rectified, I speak from personal experience. .

Maybe at your speed but it clearly wasnt at Damiens....

[Devil]

The start/finish line thing is entirely up to who is running the event. There is another line that can be used. If you dont like what your club is doing, tell them.

There's many tracks around the world that start in one position, then have the finish line back a short distance.

[Kickaha]

The start/finish line thing is entirely up to who is running the event. There is another line that can be used. If you dont like what your club is doing, tell them.

There's many tracks around the world that start in one position, then have the finish line back a short distance.

How does that work with the transponder system?

Won't the loop be under the start/finish that is used now?

[suzuki21]

My condolences go out to Tims family.

An expert analysis of the setup of the bike will I think tell the story of why as I heard the bike got into quite a tankslapper. Its all about setting the bike up for the demands the circuit places upon it. If the setup of the bike was in some way deficient then that would explian rather a lot

An analysis will only show so much. One mans good setup will be really fucked up for someone else, so who decides if it is bad? If his steering dampener is nearly wound right off is that bad for everyone? Was the slapper caused by holding the bars too tight for example.

[Biggles08]

An analysis will only show so much. One mans good setup will be really fucked up for someone else, so who decides if it is bad? If his steering dampener is nearly wound right off is that bad for everyone? Was the slapper caused by holding the bars too tight for example.
I think he was referring to front suspension set up Suzuki21

[Robert Taylor]

An analysis will only show so much. One mans good setup will be really fucked up for someone else, so who decides if it is bad? If his steering dampener is nearly wound right off is that bad for everyone? Was the slapper caused by holding the bars too tight for example.

The bike didnt have a steering damper. If the setting is seriously f...ed up on any bike then its no good for anyone.

[Robert Taylor]

I think he was referring to front suspension set up Suzuki21

Both ends in fact.

[Biggles08]

Both ends in fact.
indeed...

I have had experience with pretty bad tank slappers recently and it can be pretty un-nerving in the midst of it for sure...a little wobble can be expected but if settings are way off and rider input is incorrect at the time then this can be the end result.

I still believe the hump is a definite contributing factor in the recent fatality and needs to be looked at with very scrutinizing eyes going forward. Hampton Downs Ride days are a very professional organization and I feel they need to be absolved from any responsibility in this incident. The fact remains, a rider was killed at Hampton Downs and if nothing changes in hindsight for the better then what have we learned and whats stopping it happening again. The track management need to make a decision and move towards making the track safer for participants. There are many options on how to achieve this and $$$ should not feature in this discussion at all.

[DEATH_INC.]

There are many options on how to achieve this and $$$ should not feature in this discussion at all.
Yes, that should be the case, but it won't. Puke is a perfect example of a track that could be made safe without huge expenditure, but never has or will.
I'll be surprised if we see any changes at hampton.

[DEATH_INC.]

Both ends in fact.
Isn't it the bit in on the top that is the issue?

[White trash]

indeed...

I have had experience with pretty bad tank slappers recently and it can be pretty un-nerving in the midst of it for sure...a little wobble can be expected but if settings are way off and rider input is incorrect at the time then this can be the end result.

.

Hate to interupt, but from what I'm told you experienced high speed weaves or wobbles, not "tank slappers". A tru "tank slapper" is bars lock to lock and commonly results in broken thumbs. I have the thumb dents in my rgv tank photographed as evidence o said "tank slapper".

[Billy]

indeed...

I have had experience with pretty bad tank slappers recently and it can be pretty un-nerving in the midst of it for sure...a little wobble can be expected but if settings are way off and rider input is incorrect at the time then this can be the end result.

I still believe the hump is a definite contributing factor in the recent fatality and needs to be looked at with very scrutinizing eyes going forward. Hampton Downs Ride days are a very professional organization and I feel they need to be absolved from any responsibility in this incident. The fact remains, a rider was killed at Hampton Downs and if nothing changes in hindsight for the better then what have we learned and whats stopping it happening again. The track management need to make a decision and move towards making the track safer for participants. There are many options on how to achieve this and $$$ should not feature in this discussion at all.

Seems obvious to me and others,The hump or machine set up were not what killed Tim,Clearly it was the concrete wall!!The only sensible resolution would be too remove the offending wall(not gonna happen) or haybale/air fence the offending section of wall.The removal of the hump will only see the lesser experienced riders that are currently backing off for it arriving at the kink carrying even more speed,The scenarios for crashing headfirst into that wall are endless.
The only question in my mind is,Who is responsible for the safety,The track owners/Managers that supply the facility for the general public to hire and use at their discretion,Or the organisation running the event??I know from my experience as Clerk of the couse and MNZ steward it was our responsibility to inspect the track and ensure evrything was up to scratch and inform the riders of anything that may reduce safety.

Does this happen at trackdays organised outside the MNZ umbrella???

[Pussy]

Seems obvious to me and others,The hump or machine set up were not what killed Tim,Clearly it was the concrete wall!!
That is the crux of it, Billy! Nothing more, nothing less

[MSTRS]

Seems obvious to me and others,The hump or machine set up were not what killed Tim,Clearly it was the concrete wall!!...


That is the crux of it, Billy! Nothing more, nothing less

Exactly. This precisely what I was saying a page or 3 back. Having a solid concrete wall in a (more than) potential high speed whoops area, instead of a restraint or run off system, is not responsible.

[Mort]

many people think there is serious safety issue here. If it happens once it can happen again. If the circuit owners are not going to step up and address this matter they can be compelled to do so by the coroner who has a duty to investigate and prevent future deaths by this cause. I think the only way it can be properly addressed is via the Coroners inquest in to this incident. We all have a right to be heard by the coroner. Write to him.

Coroners: Gordon Matenga, Peter Ryan

Tel: (07) 834 1756
Fax: (07) 834 1757

219 Collingwood Street
Hamilton

P O Box 9383
Waikato Mail Service Centre
Hamilton 3240

[Kickaha]

Seems obvious to me and others,The hump or machine set up were not what killed Tim,Clearly

No, but as (possibly) contributing factors they still need looking at

[FROSTY]

Seems obvious to me and others,The hump or machine set up were not what killed Tim,Clearly it was the concrete wall.

Hey guys has it actually been established what killed the poor bloke?
Not being a smartass here but to me yes the concrete wall is an issue but most of the time you are going alongside the wall so impact is glancing.
BUT those big ol sticking out fence brackets are face on to you and you would go from 100 km/h plus to zero pretty fast if you hit em.
I recall the damage a simple sticking out 12mm bolt did to one guy on the hill at pukie--he was sliding dwn the armco "nicely" (well crashing into anything aint nice) till his leg hit that bolt.
I'm happy to be proven wrong but I feel an instant improvement would be simply to relocate the catchfence brackets to the pitside of the wall
AGAIN --I'm happy to be proven wrong but to me slide is good -sudden stop not good

[Biggles08]

Seems obvious to me and others,The hump or machine set up were not what killed Tim,Clearly it was the concrete wall!!The only sensible resolution would be too remove the offending wall(not gonna happen) or haybale/air fence the offending section of wall.The removal of the hump will only see the lesser experienced riders that are currently backing off for it arriving at the kink carrying even more speed,The scenarios for crashing headfirst into that wall are endless.

I don't disagree with you Billy apart from your point about ignoring every other contributing factor. You can not argue with sanity that the hump potentially set up the unfortunate series of events that lead to the Concrete wall. If you think that should be ignored then you are not stepping back and looking at the entire picture.

You say by removing the 'hump' you will encourage the lesser experienced to go even faster in that section. Is this a bad thing? If by removing the hump you reduce the risk of losing control of your vehicle (bikes are not the only ones that suffer from this feature) at high speed then surely this is a good step in the right direction. After all, the whole point of a race track is to go fast regardless if you are in a race or participating in a track day. Speed is not the issue here, it is the hump AND the concrete wall. As you say, they are less likely to move the wall so lets start with reducing the contributing factors like the hump.



The only question in my mind is,Who is responsible for the safety,The track owners/Managers that supply the facility for the general public to hire and use at their discretion,Or the organisation running the event??I know from my experience as Clerk of the couse and MNZ steward it was our responsibility to inspect the track and ensure evrything was up to scratch and inform the riders of anything that may reduce safety.

Well I'm pretty sure if they were not doing so before, the track day company will be notifying riders of this feature of the track and explaining what/how to cope with it correctly. Its like the way companies have to work with Health and safety now days, Ideally remove the hazard, if this is not possible, isolate the hazard. If this is also unable to be done then and only then the last response is to notify people of the hazard so they can take correct action to ensure they take the necessary action to ensure their own safety.



Does this happen at trackdays organised outside the MNZ umbrella???

Seems it doesn't matter Billy, MNZ banned a rider earlier this year for his alleged misdemeanors at a Hampton Downs Ride day (no official investigation was done either, it was a phone call to the rider telling him he was banned for 6 months)... Does this mean they should be involved in this case to investigate?

[Biggles08]

Hate to interupt, but from what I'm told you experienced high speed weaves or wobbles, not "tank slappers". A tru "tank slapper" is bars lock to lock and commonly results in broken thumbs. I have the thumb dents in my rgv tank photographed as evidence o said "tank slapper".

So your information was from someone else on my bike at the time Jimmy? I was there, I know what happened on two occasions and believe me the handle bars were 'slapping' the tank. It was seen pretty clearly from the pit wall on one occassion and that was why I was told to pack it up for the day when the rain came (and also cause I don't like getting wet) :baby:

It wasn't a nice feeling.

[scracha]

BUT those big ol sticking out fence brackets are face on to you and you would go from 100 km/h plus to zero pretty fast if you hit em.

Post 49 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/113858-Hampton-Downs-is-there-an-issue?p=1129546847#post1129546847)

[Devil]

I'm surprised the moderators haven't stepped in here. There is an awful lot of speculation going on, along with assumptions and conclusions drawn without the facts. Any other part of KB you'd be shot down.

Let the coroner do his job, he has all the information but you are well within your right to contact him should you have facts regarding the incident that may assist with his investigation.

Mort has posted the details above.

[cowboyz]

I'm surprised the moderators haven't stepped in here. There is an awful lot of speculation going on, along with assumptions and conclusions drawn without the facts. Any other part of KB you'd be shot down.

Let the coroner do his job, he has all the information but you are well within your right to contact him should you have facts regarding the incident that may assist with his investigation.

Mort has posted the details above.

I think the 'facts' are more and more unbelieveable as NZ gets more and more PC and the media do what the media do.

[DEATH_INC.]

You say by removing the 'hump' you will encourage the lesser experienced to go even faster in that section. Is this a bad thing? If by removing the hump you reduce the risk of losing control of your vehicle (bikes are not the only ones that suffer from this feature) at high speed then surely this is a good step in the right direction. After all, the whole point of a race track is to go fast regardless if you are in a race or participating in a track day. Speed is not the issue here, it is the hump AND the concrete wall. As you say, they are less likely to move the wall so lets start with reducing the contributing factors like the hump.
Yes, but.....the 'hump' is a feature, where as the wall is a supposed safety device.

[DEATH_INC.]

You say by removing the 'hump' you will encourage the lesser experienced to go even faster in that section. Is this a bad thing? If by removing the hump you reduce the risk of losing control of your vehicle (bikes are not the only ones that suffer from this feature) at high speed then surely this is a good step in the right direction. After all, the whole point of a race track is to go fast regardless if you are in a race or participating in a track day. Speed is not the issue here, it is the hump AND the concrete wall. As you say, they are less likely to move the wall so lets start with reducing the contributing factors like the hump.
Yes, but.....the 'hump' is a feature, where as the wall is a supposed safety device.

[MSTRS]

Yes, but.....the 'hump' is a feature, where as the wall is a supposed safety device.

Bit like the open roads - where poor seal/maintenance is a feature, and cheesecutters are a safety device...

[Quasievil]

Yes, but.....the 'hump' is a feature, where as the wall is a supposed safety device.

The Hump is a Hazard and will be the failing of any significant events ever coming there.
The Wall is not a safety device, unless the competitors safety is completely disregarded, as it seems to be with this particular wall, safe for the spectators not for the competitors maybe.

As I have said before and will say again, this is NOT the IOM or MANX GP, this is a purpose built race circuit, issues with walls and humps are not acceptable, and frankly to me shows the amateur style of the track designer and possibly others in its design.
I dont mind standing up at this point and saying I told you so, first time I saw this track I said this was going to be an issue and it is (albeit very sadly) I think from memory I was told I was wrong, clearly not.

[carver]

I wana go racing!

[Quasievil]

I wana go racing!

Fuck take your time about it why dont you, you will prolly be fairly good I reckon, as long as you learn some race craft and get a decent bike.

[Luckylegs]

Yes, but.....the 'hump' is a feature, where as the wall is a supposed safety device.

Safety device for riders or the public/spectators ?

[Biggles08]

...you will prolly be fairly good I reckon, as long as you learn some race craft and get a decent bike.

I reckon you would be pretty good if you were fast Quasi!:innocent:

Carver...come on over to the dark side....don't forget your bike and race craft! Wheelies are neither clever nor smart.

[javawocky]

I wana go racing!

:scooter: Mormon Few Racing Crew? :scooter:

[DEATH_INC.]

The Hump is a Hazard and will be the failing of any significant events ever coming there.
Have they run the V8's there yet? I wonder how they cope with it :shit: I do know what you are saying....


The Wall is not a safety device, unless the competitors safety is completely disregarded, as it seems to be with this particular wall, safe for the spectators not for the competitors maybe. That's pretty much it...if you didn't have to keep the bikes/cars out of the crowds they wouldn't have 'em


I dont mind standing up at this point and saying I told you so, first time I saw this track I said this was going to be an issue and it is (albeit very sadly) I think from memory I was told I was wrong, clearly not. I said exactly the same thing, and from memory was also met with the same response....

Safety device for riders or the public/spectators ?
As above, but it is still a safety device, and a necessary one. But....


Bit like the open roads - where poor seal/maintenance is a feature, and cheesecutters are a safety device...
You got it in one, a safety device can be designed to look after everyone, or just some. I really don't think they designed the hump to be there, I think you'll find it is just the result of the usual poor construction standards we have here.
And this is really my point, the hump is most likely a mistake, the wall was put there on purpose, as part of the design.

[Kickaha]

I dont mind standing up at this point and saying I told you so, first time I saw this track I said this was going to be an issue and it is (albeit very sadly) I think from memory I was told I was wrong, clearly not.



I said exactly the same thing, and from memory was also met with the same response....


Who did either of you contact regarding your concerns about this?

[Quasievil]

Who did either of you contact regarding your concerns about this?

It was a discussion based on personal opinion, who are you supposed to discuss your opinions with?
KB of course.

[DEATH_INC.]

Who did either of you contact regarding your concerns about this?
Admittedly, no-one in particular :shutup: ....just told anyone that would listen. I wouldn't even know where to start contacting the person responsible for that area. I really haven't had much to do with the place. Do you really think it would have made a difference?

[sAsLEX]

Who did either of you contact regarding your concerns about this?

There was talk early on about the track being built to FIM standards......
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Codes_et_reglements/SRRC-NCCR_Ang.pdf

Does it meet them ?

[Kiwi Graham]

There was talk early on about the track being built to FIM standards......
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Codes_et_reglements/SRRC-NCCR_Ang.pdf

Does it meet them ?

Only read up to page 4 (have to go to work now) but so far so ................oops :facepalm:

[Kickaha]

It was a discussion based on personal opinion, who are you supposed to discuss your opinions with?
KB of course.


Admittedly, no-one in particular :shutup: ....just told anyone that would listen. I wouldn't even know where to start contacting the person responsible for that area. I really haven't had much to do with the place. Do you really think it would have made a difference?

I'm not sure, I was just wondering if it was bought to the track owners attention during the build stage and was ignored and a fatality happened as a result what the coroner would say

It's not really a valid comparison but if that was the scenario in the workplace somebody is in deep shit

[Shaun]

I'm not sure, I was just wondering if it was bought to the track owners attention during the build stage and was ignored and a fatality happened as a result what the coroner would say

It's not really a valid comparison but if that was the scenario in the workplace somebody is in deep shit


It is actually a very valid comparison. Hampton downs is a buisness run as a buisness taking money from customers to use the track.

I know people who have written letters to the track regarding safety issues there and have had NO response to the letters.

With the now Prooven safety issues there, the track management should CLOSE the track down untill it is made safe, instead of continuing to hire it out to cover there huge investment in building it, I know it takes money to make money, but not when the potentuall risk of it is as we have seen.

RIP TIM, thankyou for potentually helping to save others

[Quasievil]

It is actually a very valid comparison. Hampton downs is a buisness run as a buisness taking money from customers to use the track.


Not if said customers no longer turn up, which I think unless the safety issues are addressed should possibly be the relevant course of action, the only issue with that is of course the business that will be affected and I would not want to see them suffer i.e CSBS and Hampton ride days

[cowboyz]

Not if said customers no longer turn up, which I think unless the safety issues are addressed should possibly be the relevant course of action, the only issue with that is of course the business that will be affected and I would not want to see them suffer i.e CSBS and Hampton ride days

what planet are you on? this is not gonna stop people going to HD. This will have no effect on HD at all... as long as they ignore it properly and get the media to keep diverting blame

[ellipsis]

....as an aside to the actual perceived or real problem that I cant comment on never having been to HD....this whole thing has left me thinking about what feelings a COC would be having before deeming the track to be fit to ride on....having just had to do the Clerk of Course paperwork for MNZ myself, Im wondering if I....KNOWING THERE COULD BE A PROBLEM...would want to take the responsibility for having the risks on my shoulders...

[Quasievil]

what planet are you on? This will have no effect on HD at all... as long as they ignore it properly and get the media to keep diverting blame

on the contrary what planet are you on?

[cowboyz]

on the contrary what planet are you on?

the one where i grew up in NZ and learnt responisbily means nothing

[Billy]

....as an aside to the actual perceived or real problem that I cant comment on never having been to HD....this whole thing has left me thinking about what feelings a COC would be having before deeming the track to be fit to ride on....having just had to do the Clerk of Course paperwork for MNZ myself, Im wondering if I....KNOWING THERE COULD BE A PROBLEM...would want to take the responsibility for having the risks on my shoulders...

Yes a very valid point,Having been a COC on numerous occassions and knowing the responsibilty placed on that person,Im not sure I would want too be running an event at HD unless the organising club gave me free reign on complete organisation of safety requirements.

Having said all that,To be fair to the company behind HD they have spent millions of dollars to supply a multi purpose motor racing complex for all to use,It has to be up to the organisations using the facility to ensure it meets their minimum safety requirements and if/when it doesnt,Take the necessary steps to rectify,IE haybales/air bags etc.A classic example would be the start finsh straight at Paeroa,How safe would that be if the club didnt fence and haybale it..

Furthermore,Motorcylists do themselves no favours by racing on street circuits and a classic example of this was following the tragic death of Chris Dawes at Manfeild,Jim Tuckerman and myself approached the staff at Manfeild promotions and offered our services too fill in the offending gap in the wall on the start/finish straight that Chris hit,Free of charge if they supplied the required materials.The response was immediate.So you guys race at venues like Wanganui and Paeroa with lamp posts and gutters all over the place AND YOU WANT US TO DO WHAT !!!!

If your at an event anywhere in the country and are unhappy with any part of the venue safety,Question the organisation running the event and if you dont get a reasonable response or are not happy with the venue safety,Pack up and go home and contact MNZ and ask them too investigate it further.

[MSTRS]

A classic example would be the start finsh straight at Paeroa,How safe would that be if the club didnt fence and haybale it..


You reckon the fence at Paeroa is safe? It is there as a demarcation line only. If a bike hit it, the outcome would be little different to no fence.

[FROSTY]

Guys can someone give me a heads up on this one please.
To my knowledge there arent any tracks in NZ that DON'T have a wall alongside the start/finish and for that matter how many tracks world wide dont have a wall there?

[wharfy]

Bit like the open roads - where poor seal/maintenance is a feature, and cheesecutters are a safety device...

The walls down pit lanes and wire rope (and concrete) median barriers ARE safety devices - too protect the people on the OTHER side of them - not the people who hit them.

[Mort]

Hampton downs is a business run as a business taking money from customers to use the track.

That's a very valid point Shaun. Until now, the businesses have invited paying clients to their facility and have done so with a only a theoretical (but known) risk. From this point onwards there is a known danger. What was thought could happen, did happen and could happen again. Until physical changes to the track are made, I would suggest all riders (especially trackday riders) should be made aware of the potential hazard at this point. That is not to say HDRD are in anyway liable for what happened (they are the most safety conscious firm I have ever seen). Just to say that all riders should be aware in future and exercise their own judgement and caution.

With regard to the physical aspects of the circuit. The circuit reminds me of a circuit in the UK. Rockingham, which also had a high speed turn with a wall on the outside (This circuit is an American bowl type circuit with an in-field circuit). One section was very fast with no runoff. Just a wall. It caused a lot of concern at the time and Steve Hislop crashed there which cost him the championship if I recall correctly. Anyway, eventually the British Superbike circus left Rockingham because it was so expensive to make safe for each event. It was very unpopular with riders because of this risk. No amount of airfences and painted lines could solve the fact that there was a serious danger at that point. There is a similar situation at HD. Hampton Downs hope to attract World Superbikes. I wonder what they would think of the current situation on that turn ?

What can be physically done ? If the hump were sorted that would help but it would still leave the primary cause (high speed turn with no run off) present. If the wall cannot be moved (and I doubt it can) the only theoretical way is therefore to slow down the approach to the area with a chicane or some other feature. (eg Siverstone, Imola). The existing layout could remain as an option. It wouldn’t ruin the circuit, it may even add something to what will be (when fully complete) a really good circuit which is great for spectators and riders.

[BoristheBiter]

Guys can someone give me a heads up on this one please.
To my knowledge there arent any tracks in NZ that DON'T have a wall alongside the start/finish and for that matter how many tracks world wide dont have a wall there?

But the straight at HD is more of a long curve with a wall on the run off side.

[cowboyz]

Guys can someone give me a heads up on this one please.
To my knowledge there arent any tracks in NZ that DON'T have a wall alongside the start/finish and for that matter how many tracks world wide dont have a wall there?

while this is true the issue is the buffered 'crash zone' between the final corner and the start of pit wall. there should be a regulation length you can crash.

A *WELL* designed racetrack will have a mixture of challenging corners and striaghts and good braking zones and passing oppourtunities to lay the ground work for good racing!.. It will also allow riders to push to the absoulte limits of thier machines with areas designed to slow the bike down (kitty litter) if they do come to grief. And how did paeroa get into this conversation? Its chalk and cheese! Thats a street racing circuit where the safety is built around the track rather than a purpose built racetrack where the track *should* be built around safety.

Its not about wrapping up in cotton wool.. Its about creating the best atomphere for close, cometitive racing where the chance of being killed are lessened.

In a perfect world... There would be a track where every corner has 6 or 7 'fast' lines through it and a huge area to crash in if riders write a cheque on a pass that they cant cash. But the temptation to write that cheque has to be there. If this 'hump/wall' combo stays then all racing is going to be decided in the middle of the track cause who,,, but the very crazy, is gonna try and pass with the knowledge that if it doesnt stick.. they will probably be dead?

[Billy]

You reckon the fence at Paeroa is safe? It is there as a demarcation line only. If a bike hit it, the outcome would be little different to no fence.

Mmmmm,Probably not the best example,However the question was,How safe would it be without the fence,It clearly does the job as both Craig Shirriffs and Paul Brown from Blenheim have crash tested it for us.

[gixerracer]

Mmmmm,Probably not the best example,However the question was,How safe would it be without the fence,It clearly does the job as both Craig Shirriffs and Paul Brown from Blenheim have crash tested it for us.

wot u talkin about??

[MSTRS]

He be talking about the chicken wire strung up on the main street at Paeroa. You know - the safety fence...
Apparently you have tested it. And it won.

[gixerracer]

He be talking about the chicken wire strung up on the main street at Paeroa. You know - the safety fence...
Apparently you have tested it. And it won.

have only crashed at turn 1 and then the kink down the back straight before the hairpin and maybe going in to the esses in practice once, but thats all never down the front straight, Im never racing at Paeroa again it is too dangerous for me now:bye:

[Robert Taylor]

The Hump is a Hazard and will be the failing of any significant events ever coming there.
The Wall is not a safety device, unless the competitors safety is completely disregarded, as it seems to be with this particular wall, safe for the spectators not for the competitors maybe.

As I have said before and will say again, this is NOT the IOM or MANX GP, this is a purpose built race circuit, issues with walls and humps are not acceptable, and frankly to me shows the amateur style of the track designer and possibly others in its design.
I dont mind standing up at this point and saying I told you so, first time I saw this track I said this was going to be an issue and it is (albeit very sadly) I think from memory I was told I was wrong, clearly not.

As just a part of the equation of track safety how about having the bike setup so that its chassis is only minimally disturbed by that hump? Plenty of Superbikes have traversed that hump without too much chassis aggravation.
Im not justifying the hump or any intrasigence to either remove it etc but it seems to be overlooked that chassis setup may have been a mitigating factor of no insignificance.
Just last night at HD I readjusted the rear suspension of a trackday bike that had been maladjusted by a former racer who should have known better. Had it been ridden at race pace over that hump it too would have got into a tankslapper.
How many accidents are caused or majorly contributed to by badly setup bikes?

[Robert Taylor]

It is actually a very valid comparison. Hampton downs is a buisness run as a buisness taking money from customers to use the track.

I know people who have written letters to the track regarding safety issues there and have had NO response to the letters.

With the now Prooven safety issues there, the track management should CLOSE the track down untill it is made safe, instead of continuing to hire it out to cover there huge investment in building it, I know it takes money to make money, but not when the potentuall risk of it is as we have seen.

RIP TIM, thankyou for potentually helping to save others

Well then the same argument applies to the IOM, Irish road racing, Wanganui and Paeroa to name a few.

[Quasievil]

As just a part of the equation of track safety how about having the bike setup so that its chassis is only minimally disturbed by that hump? Plenty of Superbikes have traversed that hump without too much chassis aggravation.
Im not justifying the hump or any intrasigence to either remove it etc but it seems to be overlooked that chassis setup may have been a mitigating factor of no insignificance.
Just last night at HD I readjusted the rear suspension of a trackday bike that had been maladjusted by a former racer who should have known better. Had it been ridden at race pace over that hump it too would have got into a tankslapper.
How many accidents are caused or majorly contributed to by badly setup bikes?

Of course Robert youre right about this ,I know full well about the importance of bike set up, I learnt the hard way.
To be fair tho Im not sure many of us can afford a Ohlins setup but I know that most can afford a hour long cost for a set up guru to attend to a good set up on std suspension, something I really need on my R1 as its handling like poo

[Robert Taylor]

Of course Robert youre right about this ,I know full well about the importance of bike set up, I learnt the hard way.
To be fair tho Im not sure many of us can afford a Ohlins setup but I know that most can afford a hour long cost for a set up guru to attend to a good set up on std suspension, something I really need on my R1 as its handling like poo

My post was in no way intended to be a billboard for my services and products. The bike I readjusted at HD last night ( one of many ) had stock suspension and the person who adjusted it before me turned it into a potential death trap. Readjusting it minimised that risk.
This takes 10 minutes at most with nearly all bikes to get them into a proper zone of adjustment. Its not going to turn them into a well fettled bike with premium qualty pedigree aftermarket suspension but it makes a big difference nonetheless.

[Quasievil]

My post was in no way intended to be a billboard for my services and products.

I knew that bro, wasnt meant to read that way.
next time youre up can ya text me and figure my one out?

[Billy]

have only crashed at turn 1 and then the kink down the back straight before the hairpin and maybe going in to the esses in practice once, but thats all never down the front straight, Im never racing at Paeroa again it is too dangerous for me now:bye:

Really,So you didnt crash the first GSXR750 you raced there after fitting Simon Turners derestricted gear shift sensor ???