How to break it to your wife

[mashman]

My wife has just been accepted for college... to become a kindy school teacher no less. Personally i think she'll be great, if somewhat loud, but having done a few calculations using the "proposed" levy hikes, we just simply won't be able to afford for her to go.

We've been planning this for the last year or so as my youngest is almost 2. We're not guaranteed a space at the college creche, so we've been financially reigning ourselves in over the last year to prepare for having no money for the next 3 years...

This is the real COST of the ACC levy's, the human cost. This wasn't just a whim, she's shit scared of the study and what it means to the family in terms of quality time.

I'd REALLY go into what it means, but i'm just a little distraught, stunned, call it disbelief, that the government are prepared to screw the present for the future... not fully realising the pressures that they're putting on people, or moreover not caring!

How the hell can i tell her that we can't afford for her to go to college? I honestly can't bear the thought!!!

This has to be one of the most disgusting governmental decisions i've ever seen, and all in the pursuit of MORE MONEY!!!! For the people by the people MY FAT FUCKING HAIRY WHITE ASS YOU BLOOD SUCKING WHITE MOTHER FUCKING GOVERNMENT!!!

[AllanB]

Put your bike rego on hold for 6 months over winter. Half the cost. Then send her to College. If need be put it on hold for the year to support her.


Make it happen, motorcycle rego should be only a small part of your relationship.

[allycatz]

There are other options for study to be an ECE teacher that don't involve full time study at Polytech or Uni. I know Ive just done the research. There is centre based training ie. full time work at daycare and attend uni one day per week, work at kindy and do study through Open polytech..requires only one day a week work in centre. The pay rates are not great when you are not qualified but will increase slightly (around $14 per hour). There is also places such as Ransted education who will employ you as a temp and pay half your fees at the completion of training if you bond to them for 3 years. Also look at Dept. Educ web site and check out the $10K teacher training scholarship....Ive have just applied at Open Polytechnic and will be working 2-3 jobs while training as Im on my own and one income

[mashman]

Make it happen, motorcycle rego should be only a small part of your relationship.

ha ha ha ha...

finances have absolutely no bearing on peoples lives these days, what was i thinking :wacko:

[p.dath]

Get a student loan ...

[mashman]

There are other options for study to be an ECE teacher that don't involve full time study at Polytech or Uni. I know Ive just done the research. There is centre based training ie. full time work at daycare and attend uni one day per week, work at kindy and do study through Open polytech..requires only one day a week work in centre. The pay rates are not great when you are not qualified but will increase slightly (around $14 per hour). There is also places such as Ransted education who will employ you as a temp and pay half your fees at the completion of training if you bond to them for 3 years. Also look at Dept. Educ web site and check out the $10K teacher training scholarship....Ive have just applied at Open Polytechnic and will be working 2-3 jobs while training as Im on my own and one income

Cheers for that. I'm assuming that she's already researched that, she's generally pretty thourough... but i'll pass it on just in case...

[The Pastor]

ffs, people are way more important than bikes.

[Tank]

Sorry to say this - but its true.

If you are cutting it so fine that a few extra hundred dollars is the difference between your wife being able to go to college or not being able to go - then you simply couldnt afford it in the first place.

What happened if your washing machine broke - or needed new tyres on the car?

To blame the new ACC levies on her not being able to afford to go is plainly a silly argument.

[Tank]

How the hell can i tell her that we can't afford for her to go to college? I honestly can't bear the thought!!!


OK - lets put this in perspective - what about selling the bike? If it was my wife and our future - Id do that in a heart beat. (and since its a few years of rego that is the difference between going or not according to your post - this will cover it easily)

Or - is the bike more important than her going to college?

[mashman]

Get a student loan ...

Already have. But in all honesty, that's not the point. Even with a student load, even with lower interest rates, even with proposed tax cuts etc... it'll only take 1 more rise to really screw our financial situation.

You can point the finger all you like, maybe you should have saved for the future, maybe you should have gotten a better paid job etc... But why should any family have to dig in to their savings to subsidise the government even further than they already are? Because we are subsidising them! As has been noted, bikes are getting the bigger hit because the govt seem to think that we can afford it... it's none of their fucking business what i can and can't afford... how dare they try to screw people for more money!

My situation isn't ideal, but i can damned sure that when some people see the new levy's, they'll be mentally hurling themselves from atop a large building. It's honestly unthinkable what people are going to go through. I've been the student with a kid before, state housing etc... and it's fuckin tough going, raking down the back of the couch for money to buy nappies, living on the cheapest shit money can buy just so that you've eaten, walking an 8 mile round trip to unit to save 2 quid because that 2 quid can buy 6 loaves of the cheapest bread...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[crazyhorse]

My wife has just been accepted for college... to become a kindy school teacher no less. Personally i think she'll be great, if somewhat loud, but having done a few calculations using the "proposed" levy hikes, we just simply won't be able to afford for her to go.

We've been planning this for the last year or so as my youngest is almost 2. We're not guaranteed a space at the college creche, so we've been financially reigning ourselves in over the last year to prepare for having no money for the next 3 years...

This is the real COST of the ACC levy's, the human cost. This wasn't just a whim, she's shit scared of the study and what it means to the family in terms of quality time.

I'd REALLY go into what it means, but i'm just a little distraught, stunned, call it disbelief, that the government are prepared to screw the present for the future... not fully realising the pressures that they're putting on people, or moreover not caring!

How the hell can i tell her that we can't afford for her to go to college? I honestly can't bear the thought!!!

This has to be one of the most disgusting governmental decisions i've ever seen, and all in the pursuit of MORE MONEY!!!! For the people by the people MY FAT FUCKING HAIRY WHITE ASS YOU BLOOD SUCKING WHITE MOTHER FUCKING GOVERNMENT!!!

If its something you've both been planning for, for over a year, you can't tell her she can't go. Maybe you'll both need to get a part time job or cut back in any other way possible, take in a boarder or something, but she's been accepted, and something will always come up as an excuse why not to do it. Life will be tough for a while, but the sun will shine again when you come out the other side .....

[EgliHonda]

OK, I haven't been married that long, but I have learned one thing... If the wife isn't happy, you do not get to go for rides/rallys etc.

I recently found this out after spending a bit long in the shed working on the bucket, and then expecting a weekend on Munro rally escapades... Wasn't going to happen without some major compromises, you may have to follow suit...

[crazyhorse]

OK, I haven't been married that long, but I have learned one thing... If the wife isn't happy, you do not get to go for rides/rallys etc.

I recently found this out after spending a bit long in the shed working on the bucket, and then expecting a weekend on Munro rally escapades... Wasn't going to happen without some major compromises, you may have to follow suit...

Well, you should've taken her with you :sunny:

[EgliHonda]

Well, you should've taken her with you :sunny:

That's why she was shitty, has her own bike, but 3 month old bub prohibits rides a bit... Can see her point really...

[neels]

Well, you should've taken her with you :sunny:
That's how it works at our place, I have no problem going to rallies 'cos she wants to go too :rockon:

[Tank]

OK - lets put this in perspective - what about selling the bike? If it was my wife and our future - Id do that in a heart beat. (and since its a few years of rego that is the difference between going or not according to your post - this will cover it easily)

Or - is the bike more important than her going to college?

Just thinking about this more - This is a serious matter - I can appreciate that its a terrible situation to be in and Im not pointing fingers.

But there comes a point for all of us that require us to make hard decisions. You have to prortize yourself and take ownership or the directioon of your own future.

I had to get some $$$ for something. at short notice I had to choose - I sold my nice almost brand new boat. I loved that boat - but at the end of the day its just a toy - and my family comes first.

Looking at the detail you have posted - you have it in your ability to make it work - but you would have to lose the toy.

If you dont want to - thats fine - thats your decision - but really you shouldn't moan that your wife cannot afford to go - she can - its just that you prortize other things as more important.

[mashman]

Sorry to say this - but its true.

If you are cutting it so fine that a few extra hundred dollars is the difference between your wife being able to go to college or not being able to go - then you simply couldnt afford it in the first place.

What happened if your washing machine broke - or needed new tyres on the car?

To blame the new ACC levies on her not being able to afford to go is plainly a silly argument.

I see what you're saying, but there's other considerations, there always are, listing them is fruitless... In my case it's a leaky fork seal...

We've been a single income family for 6 years and we've managed. We were in a position to be able to afford my wife going to college agreeing that it'll be a tough 3 years. If the youngun doesn't get a kindy place, someone needs to be paid to look after her.

With the new levy coming in, i reckon i'm looking at having to find an additional 4 - 5 grand a year (guesstimate)... it's not just a couple of hundred a month to some, we can stretch a couple of hundy to go a long way...

[Tank]

With the new levy coming in, i reckon i'm looking at having to find an additional 4 - 5 grand a year (guesstimate)... i.

Im sorry - 4 - 5 grand per year? How do you get that figure?

[allycatz]

many day care centres offer a 50% discount for employees kids....centre based training may be the option for you.

[crazyhorse]

That's why she was shitty, has her own bike, but 3 month old bub prohibits rides a bit... Can see her point really...

yes, well, I guess life has changed for her then, so I guess your rides have decreased too :whistle: (and I said decreased, not stopped :yes) Kids will eventually grow up and things will go back the way they were........


That's how it works at our place, I have no problem going to rallies 'cos she wants to go too :rockon:

Good on ya - makes for a more peaceful and fun time too

[mashman]

OK - lets put this in perspective - what about selling the bike? If it was my wife and our future - Id do that in a heart beat. (and since its a few years of rego that is the difference between going or not according to your post - this will cover it easily)

Or - is the bike more important than her going to college?

ha ha ha. I've already mentioned it to my wife and been overruled (likely gonna have to review that decision). There's absolutely no contest between my possession and my bike... My wife will win every the time...

[mashman]

If its something you've both been planning for, for over a year, you can't tell her she can't go. Maybe you'll both need to get a part time job or cut back in any other way possible, take in a boarder or something, but she's been accepted, and something will always come up as an excuse why not to do it. Life will be tough for a while, but the sun will shine again when you come out the other side .....

You mean working to live... never again!

[Ragingrob]

So wait... How does the levy equate to an additional 4-5 grand per year???

Mate just sell your bike if need be even just to get not a late model Aprilia.

[crazyhorse]

You mean working to live... never again!

To get to where you want in life, sometimes this has to happen - and clearly it looks like it might have to be the case for your wife to achieve what she wants in life.

I've just bought a house, so this has to happen for me, at least for a little while, until I get ahead again. Its called sacrifice..........

Then you can go on to reap the rewards later :yes:

[mashman]

Im sorry - 4 - 5 grand per year? How do you get that figure?

Ok,

Working levy will go up by say $1200 a year.
Bike levy goes up by say $500
Car levy goes up by say $200
My fuel levy will go up by say $200

and any other levy's/tax's that start to appear

plus my wifes uni expenses (student loan yeah yeah), but with sundry expenses more than likely getting up around the 4k mark... add on day car the the littlun and we're up around 5 - 6 maybe!!!

granted it's a rough guesstimate, but that's what it's going to mean to my household

[crazyhorse]

Ok,

Working levy will go up by say $1200 a year.
Bike levy goes up by say $500
Car levy goes up by say $200
My fuel levy will go up by say $200

and any other levy's/tax's that start to appear

plus my wifes uni expenses (student loan yeah yeah), but with sundry expenses more than likely getting up around the 4k mark... add on day car the the littlun and we're up around 5 - 6 maybe!!!

granted it's a rough guesstimate, but that's what it's going to mean to my household

And in a few years when she graduates, her income would be, oh, say, $60k - things will even out..........

[mashman]

To get to where you want in life, sometimes this has to happen - and clearly it looks like it might have to be the case for your wife to achieve what she wants in life.

I've just bought a house, so this has to happen for me, at least for a little while, until I get ahead again. Its called sacrifice..........

Then you can go on to reap the rewards later :yes:

Honestly, that's preaching to the crowd, i've been there and done that on more occassions than i care to mention... I wouldn't mind if it was our choice, but it's being forced upon us financially...

I know it's a whinge, it's a moan it's a venting of frustration... i'm just sick of changing my lifestyle to fit in with what the government are doing... sick of dipping into what i have saved (already been taxed etc...) to pay for yet another governments whims!!! it has got fuck all to do with a change in my personal circumstances and I truly fear for those that don't have my options...

I fully understand what you're saying and this is most likely a storm in a tea cup, but it's a storm i'd rather not be having just now ta!

[mashman]

And in a few years when she graduates, her income would be, oh, say, $60k - things will even out..........

It's not the money, i don't know how much she'll be earning! it's the removal of our choice to decide! She could go out and get a job now, a pretty decent one, but she wants to do something a little more fulfilling. I'm as supportive as any man can be... but if the government wants to remove my ways of supporting my family for their own ends, i don't see i have any choice at all and i won't be the only one!

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer... tis all rather disheartening is all :bye:

[Mully]

And in a few years when she graduates, her income would be, oh, say, $60k - things will even out..........

Do kindy teachers get $60K on graduation?

Holy Crap. I wish I'd started on $60 Grand.

Mashman - you gots ta do, what ya gots ta do. If it was me, I'd be flogging off the Aprilia and buying a cheaper, older bike to run around on for a couple of years (actually, if the levies go ahead, probably a 600)

You can always come back to a newer bike once the sprog's a bit older and the Missus is earning a bit more coin.

[allycatz]

My daughter has just graduated....starting rate in Under two centre $22 per hour. Rates depend on xperience and where the centre is. Auckland pays more than Welly. $60k is what a centre manager would expect, unless its an extremely high end centre in Remmers

[Reckless]

tis all rather disheartening is all :bye:

I can help you out mate! :whistle: I''ll give you $1000 for the RSVR :pinch:, you won't have the future rego worries (a big saving) :woohoo: and you can devote all your time to that lovely wife! :yes:
Just as a favour like, I'll even come down and pick it up!! PM me LOL!

[crazyhorse]

Do kindy teachers get $60K on graduation?

Holy Crap. I wish I'd started on $60 Grand.



It was purely hypothetical - I'm not a teacher of any sorts, but was rather guessing this - my sister is a teacher and I know what she earns.... :innocent:

[mashman]

You can always come back to a newer bike once the sprog's a bit older and the Missus is earning a bit more coin.

I saved for 7 years for this bike, i'm 39, i'm not going to get another bike as i'll be 60 by the time the girls relinquish my wallet. I was looking forward to taking them to school on the back, just like my dad did with me, it's much much much more than my toy... it's not just a toy for me, it's my commute, my morning wake up call, my quick 30 minute blast when there's a kids birthday party on, and so much more.... It's the thing that brings "that" smile to my face and my wife comments on it. If i sell the bike, i'll never come back to motorcycling (some may say that's a good thing after seeing me ride)...

Perhaps this is the whole reason for the rant... i'll be giving something up for my wife... nope, i'm being forced into giving up my 1 tiny pleasure for any given day to line someone else's pockets and there's fuck all i can do about it!

[mashman]

I can help you out mate! :whistle: I''ll give you $1000 for the RSVR :pinch:, you won't have the future rego worries (a big saving) :woohoo: and you can devote all your time to that lovely wife! :yes:
Just as a favour like, I'll even come down and pick it up!! PM me LOL!

HEARTLESS CNUT!!! :lol::lol: leave me alone Smithy, haven't you got enough already!!!

[Reckless]

HEARTLESS CNUT!!! :lol::lol: leave me alone Smithy, haven't you got enough already!!!

Haha hopefully it generated a little smile!
I feel for you mate I'm not riding because of our renovations at the moment so its a real bummer with no bike to ride!
Pity her indoors doesn't realise how hard it is, ah well testing times! We will all muck on through no doubt! Good luck!

[avgas]

I'm sorry but an RSV owner complaining about money is like a child complaining that the silver spoon makes the milk sour.

I understand that the bike is probably hard earned - but lets put it this way. On KB there is a GPZ600 going for $2.5K - sell your bike, buy this one and you have rego for about 5-10 years? no?

[Oakie]

Sorry dude. I think that instead of breaking the news to your wife, you need to break the news to your bike.

[mashman]

I'm sorry but an RSV owner complaining about money is like a child complaining that the silver spoon makes the milk sour.

I understand that the bike is probably hard earned - but lets put it this way. On KB there is a GPZ600 going for $2.5K - sell your bike, buy this one and you have rego for about 5-10 years? no?

Pretty ignorant statement AVGAS... you know nothing about me... and in point of fact the RSVR (it's not the 30 grand factory version) cost me a $1000 more than the R1 that i'd seen the day before!!!

I don't want ANY other bike (stamping feet like little the rich kid that i obviously am), it's not JUST the riding i enjoy, it's risding the Prila that makes the ride "comfortable" for me... i earned this the hard way and still thought i had a few years to save for it, until i found her! I will sell her to put my wife through school make no mistake about it... but the fact that i have to sell her because some fuckwit in a pin striped suit, using incorrect figures, claiming he's doing it for the people pricing me off the road whilst my wife goes to train to educate the next lot of kiwi kids really shouldn't be on... it's not like i have a choice. My dreams go down the lav because of a reporting error!!!

[mashman]

Sorry dude. I think that instead of breaking the news to your wife, you need to break the news to your bike.

It could end up being both! I need to sit down with the wife and think it all through... really glad I vented on a forum :lol: :bash:

[Skyryder]

My wife has just been accepted for college... to become a kindy school teacher no less. Personally i think she'll be great, if somewhat loud, but having done a few calculations using the "proposed" levy hikes, we just simply won't be able to afford for her to go.

We've been planning this for the last year or so as my youngest is almost 2. We're not guaranteed a space at the college creche, so we've been financially reigning ourselves in over the last year to prepare for having no money for the next 3 years...

This is the real COST of the ACC levy's, the human cost. This wasn't just a whim, she's shit scared of the study and what it means to the family in terms of quality time.

I'd REALLY go into what it means, but i'm just a little distraught, stunned, call it disbelief, that the government are prepared to screw the present for the future... not fully realising the pressures that they're putting on people, or moreover not caring!

How the hell can i tell her that we can't afford for her to go to college? I honestly can't bear the thought!!!

This has to be one of the most disgusting governmental decisions i've ever seen, and all in the pursuit of MORE MONEY!!!! For the people by the people MY FAT FUCKING HAIRY WHITE ASS YOU BLOOD SUCKING WHITE MOTHER FUCKING GOVERNMENT!!!


It's why this country will always have social problems. The most formative years are in the pre school years and no government has fully addressed this problem. It is not just a matter of crech funding etc although that is part of it, it gets down to good basic parenting, decent food for child development, learning and cognitive skills but most of all showing 'consistancy' with your decisions in raising children.


Skyryder

[Forest]

Pretty ignorant statement AVGAS... you know nothing about me... and in point of fact the RSVR (it's not the 30 grand factory version) cost me a $1000 more than the R1 that i'd seen the day before!!!

I don't want ANY other bike (stamping feet like little the rich kid that i obviously am), it's not JUST the riding i enjoy, it's risding the Prila that makes the ride "comfortable" for me... i earned this the hard way and still thought i had a few years to save for it, until i found her! I will sell her to put my wife through school make no mistake about it... but the fact that i have to sell her because some fuckwit in a pin striped suit, using incorrect figures, claiming he's doing it for the people pricing me off the road whilst my wife goes to train to educate the next lot of kiwi kids really shouldn't be on... it's not like i have a choice. My dreams go down the lav because of a reporting error!!!

Sorry mate, but I've got no fucking sympathy for you. You've got more bike than you need, and more bike than you can afford.

Go ahead and stamp your feet all you want.

[Pedrostt500]

ffs, people are way more important than bikes.

What are You Thinking Man!!.

[bull]

Seems pretty simple - flick the bike off and if you must get a cheaper smaller cc bike to use. Little bit of sacrifice now will be owrth it once your wife gets quals. Even just her being happy youll notice the difference.

Bikes just a bike! flick it off.

[Karl08]

It could end up being both! I need to sit down with the wife and think it all through... really glad I vented on a forum :lol: :bash:

Better to vent here, so you can talk with your wife- as opposed to the other way round.

[CookMySock]

having done a few calculations using the "proposed" levy hikes, we just simply won't be able to afford for her to go.Don't be an ass.

If she wants to go do something like that, you should fuck off and juggle the maths until it works out for her. Sell ALL the bikes if necessary, but make it happen.

Think about it.

Steve

[mashman]

My message kind of got lost with my emotion, what i was really trying to say was:

This is the real COST of the ACC levy's, the human cost. This wasn't just a whim, she's shit scared of the study and what it means to the family in terms of quality time.

I'd REALLY go into what it means, but i'm just a little distraught, stunned, call it disbelief, that the government are prepared to screw the present for the future... not fully realising the pressures that they're putting on people, or moreover not caring!

I'm comfortable, have backup plans etc... there are some that aren't and don't. If i have to make what looks like a childish sacrifice, then what the hell is the effect going to be on those less fortunate than myself...

And for the record, my reason in times of emotional outburst and my logic in times chaos has told me that the bike is to stay, but only as long as the family aren't paying for it... My Wife knows i'll sell the bike in a heartbeat for the benefit of the family, there's never been any doubt about it... but it's the above that worries me.

[imdying]

A man puts his wife first in every regard. If you want to be one, you know what to do. Buy a bike you can afford to run in the mean time... shit even a mini moto or bucket racer could help stave off the beast for a few years.

[Jonno.]

I'm sorry for bumping this but this has got to be a piss take?
What a dick
Trying to blame ACC for the fact you don't want your missus to go to university is almost beyond belief. Especially with a 2005 aprilla.

Get a student loan.
1000$ for course related costs.
160$ a week for living costs.
There's scholarships out there for ECE (10k allowance + fees paid for)
You can get subsidized childcare for the little one.

There is no way in hell you can use ACC as an excuse:angry2:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ynmpgy.jpg

[mashman]

I'm sorry for bumping this but this has got to be a piss take?
What a dick
Trying to blame ACC for the fact you don't want your missus to go to university is almost beyond belief. Especially with a 2005 aprilla.

Get a student loan.
1000$ for course related costs.
160$ a week for living costs.
There's scholarships out there for ECE (10k allowance + fees paid for)
You can get subsidized childcare for the little one.

There is no way in hell you can use ACC as an excuse:angry2:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2ynmpgy.jpg

ha ha haaaaa, i was just saying that at that particular point in time that extra levy hike could have put us in a financially precarious position. Turns out that there were even more levy hikes in the pipeline... who would have thought eh!

As a footnote though, she never went to college. Things kinda screwed the timetable, still are screwing the timetable, so she has postponed her course for a year... shit happens i guess.

To be fair you don't know the ins and outs of our situation and it's never that easy... which is why, when i went on about the human cost of ACC rises, I was actually thinking about people in general. things you have to give up because some fucker can't get his sums right etc...

As for the bike argument... how much do you think Aprilias cost... the way you're going on it's as if i could sell the thing and buy the college... fook me!

But, a hearty fuck you very much for your concern :2thumbsup

[Mully]

I'd REALLY go into what it means, but i'm just a little distraught, stunned, call it disbelief, that the government are prepared to screw the present for the future... not fully realising the pressures that they're putting on people, or moreover not caring!

Sorry to continue with the thread dredge, but IMHO, this is what happens with governments (all of them) are focussed on a three year cycle.

Look at it this way - to really "solve" the underclass problem in NZ and the problems that go with it (drugs, beaten children, disease and so on) would take years and would require a fundamental shifting in thinking (and a fundamental shift in where the $$ go). It's just about a generation to solve.

So they all (Red, Blue, Green, Yellow) come up with a "band-aid" (do they know it's Xmas?) solution to the problem so they can say "hey look, we're doing stuff" without costing millions of dollars and thousands of votes from the people who think it's unfair to throw money at the underclass.

If any goverment got in and said "We're going to commit billions of dollars to this over, say, 20 years" it'd be political suicide.

Short-term thinking gets short-term "solutions"

[mashman]

Look at it this way - to really "solve" the underclass problem in NZ and the problems that go with it (drugs, beaten children, disease and so on) would take years and would require a fundamental shifting in thinking (and a fundamental shift in where the $$ go). It's just about a generation to solve.

Short-term thinking gets short-term "solutions"

I agree completely. BUT, you are talking about a MONMENTAL shift in thinking. But whilst you're at it, why not make a short-term solution actually work, ya know, in a permanent way? Everything you talk about "(and a fundamental shift in where the $$ go)"... why not do the same but remove $$$ from the equation permanently. then you don't have to think about "(and a fundamental shift in where the $$ go)", you just do it. And " (drugs, beaten children, disease and so on)" would all but go away perhaps? Somewhere along the line, as we get to about 18 (and earlier), something changes people i.e. what to do with our time... oo, somewhere to live... food to eat... easy, get a job (policeman, carpenter etc...), go on the dole, become a drug dealer, become a student, become a humanitarian etc... it's about survival and that's what you have to do to survive in THIS day and age. In other words, it all takes money. Lack of it creates poverty, homelesness, stresses trying to make ends meet, a high rate of unwanted births???, dunno, fill it in yourself i guess. We all want everyone to be inherently happy, having at least the bare essentials... we all want ACC to remain ACC (but theres a $ in it), we all want top of the line suspension... whatever we all want we can just have... as long as money or a variant of never exists.