I must stop reading news on the internet while eating breakfast...

[PrincessBandit]

Two stories caught my attention while wolfing down my toast this morning:
1. Primary school children being encouraged to call their teachers by their first name.
2. State Services Commission wanting to restrict principals and teachers from criticising the government.

So here we have on one hand teachers having to put up with children calling them by their christian name (although it's supposed to be at the school's/teacher's choice...) and on the other not being allowed to speak out against the powers that be regarding concerns where politics have a worrying impact on the school system.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit screwy??
Maybe it's just me....

For the record, I have allowed some senior students in the past to call me by my first name as by year 12/13 some of them have earned that privilege (in my opinion); there are many other students who I would be very unhappy about taking that liberty.

Now that I've managed to clear my choking piece of toast and wipe my watering eyes I will go and continue getting ready for school.

[Trudes]

Geezus, I still call friends of my mum "Mrs and Mr whatever" and not by their first name!! I hear kids calling adults by their first names a lot... when did that start happening? The only adults we called by their first names had 'uncle' or 'aunty' put in front.

[steve_t]

Yeah, let's remove any minute trace of any remnants of respect kids have for their teachers. Teachers are to now be seen as equals (or possibly inferior) and should be known by their first name or nickname. This is my english teacher Timmy, and this is my maths teacher Big Dave. In fact, children should be encouraged to call their parents by their first names and to tell them to go fuck themselves if a parent tries to tell them what to do :stupid::2guns::stupid:

[Trudes]

hahaha, yeah, I didn't even know my parents HAD first names until I was about 8!! And teachers were NOT human.... they were these entities that must be obeyed!!

[Pussy]

Geezus, I still call friends of my mum "Mrs and Mr whatever" and not by their first name!! I hear kids calling adults by their first names a lot... when did that start happening? The only adults we called by their first names had 'uncle' or 'aunty' put in front.

Same here!
I still address some of my CLIENTS as Mr or Mrs ****!
My 26 year old nephew still calls me Uncle... although just recently I said to him that I appreciate the courtesy, but just call me John

[MisterD]

The only adults we called by their first names had 'uncle' or 'aunty' put in front.

My real Aunty and Uncle told me to drop those tags ahead of their first names about twenty years ago and it still feels a bit weird...

[Rayray401]

there goes respect, straight out the window...

[Ixion]

What becaome of "Sir" and "Ma'am"

[Number One]

Me too Trudes, though times they are a changing.

Heaps of parents I meet tell our boy to call them by their first name...might be a response to the whole don't get the title wrong thing..ya know, Miss, Ms or Mrs...some people are really touchy about that.

I have had quite a few of the kids address me as 'Ryan's mum'...it's kinda cute.

I must say I find myself introducing friends as aunty this and uncle that...but then again this is reserved only for those that are part of my chosen family.

[Mikkel]

Holy shit, I didn't realise that NZ was that bloody old fashioned. When I went to school (primary, high and university all) we certainly addressed the teachers by their first name - hell, I was on a first name basis with our principal. :innocent:

Nothing rude or disrespectful about it either. Just the way it is. Maybe, just maybe, my parents would have addressed their primary school teachers by their last name.

[duckonin]

Yes the world and respect for others has changed, I still call those unkown to me MR or Mrs unless otherwise instructed, at a greeting If the first name is used then it stands...

I would rather call JK( Mr Keys), that way it allows me to call him a prize prick a little more easily..:msn-wink:

[p.dath]

I don't think their is any correlation between the use of "Mr, Ms, Miss or Mrs" and a persons first name when defining respect.

Respect is something earned.

[James Deuce]

Point 2 needs a BIKEOI. That. Is. Horrendous.

[Maha]

Geezus, I still call friends of my mum "Mrs and Mr whatever" and not by their first name!! I hear kids calling adults by their first names a lot... when did that start happening? The only adults we called by their first names had 'uncle' or 'aunty' put in front.

Mr and Mrs Whatever is truely a funny name.
I worked some people last week and thier surname was Tantrum.

I think kids calling me Mark is kinda cute and would rather it that way to be honest, I know some adults that even call me Maha, I answer to both.

[Squiggles]

What becaome of "Sir"

I go on a power trip everytime they call me it :laugh:

[Ocean1]

Point 2 needs a BIKEOI. That. Is. Horrendous.

Oh I duno, hard to see how it could result in the wee dears having a more screwed up idea about the real world outside the school gates...

[Flatcap]

2. State Services Commission wanting to restrict principals and teachers from criticising the government.
.

In what context would teachers be criticising the government?

Unless its a Political Science class, I think it's fair enough that politics (along with religion) is removed from the classroom

[avgas]

Respect is something earned.
Not at school its not.
Under the age of about 15 - kids don't know shit about earning respect. If they are lucky they will have learnt it.
Imagine a 13 y/o comming home saying "That John is a fucken wanker, i Fucking hate him."
Atleast in the good old day the sentense read "Mr Bennett is a fucking wanker, I fucking hate him" - respect is maintained by default, not by choice

[Indiana_Jones]

What becaome of "Sir" and "Ma'am"

Agreed.

-Indy

[StoneY]

I worked for ERO (Education Review office) a very hard working and severly underappreciated govt office for 15 months

Both stories had me concerned too
Especially the one about 'not speaking against thegovt'
WTF

Nazi'ism is illegal yeah?
Since when has NZ been a facist dictatorship?

Remove the teachers voices at great peril to our freedom, and the ability of our system to improve and develop
They ARE the front line, if anyone deserves a voice its THEM

The first name issue, I think its a possibilty of the very last bastion of respect and what was once known as 'manners' falling to modern pshyco babble

Bonding.......pfffft

[James Deuce]

In what context would teachers be criticising the government?

Unless its a Political Science class, I think it's fair enough that politics (along with religion) is removed from the classroom


Plenty of contexts that have nothing to do with lecturing kids in the classroom. Removing the right to challenge Government policy for anyone in a civil society is a clear warning that everyone is about to become subjects of a dictatorship.

I'm with Avgas too. Kids friends call me Mr or they go home.

[Flatcap]

Plenty of contexts that have nothing to do with lecturing kids in the classroom. Removing the right to challenge Government policy for anyone in a civil society is a clear warning that everyone is about to become subjects of a dictatorship.
.


I agree with the right to challenge, however in a classroom the kids have no choice but to listen to whatever ramblings the teacher wants. It's not like talkback radio where they can switch it off.

If it's not in the curriculum, or in response to legitimate questions by the pupils, then it's brainwashing

[James Deuce]

I agree with the right to challenge, however in a classroom the kids have no choice but to listen to whatever ramblings the teacher wants. It's not like talkback radio where they can switch it off.

If it's not in the curriculum, or in response to legitimate questions by the pupils, then it's brainwashing
That's not what it is about. It's about Principal's objecting to Government policy in the media. Most Pricipal's don't teach.

Most classroom teachers, believe or not have enough to do without fitting their own political lectures into the classroom, though a critical view of Government process is an essential tool that needs to be included in Social Studies or whatever they call it. It's certainly vital in History oriented subjects, like History and Art History because the politics of the period help define our understanding. Passing a law or creating a regulation like that prevents teachers from comparing events and policies of the past with current policies, a really good methodology for illustrating how human behaviour at the macro level remains almost constant despite technology and political differences.

You really think it isn't the role of teachers to introduce critical thinking and use current policies and events to demonstrate how a good thought can be turned into bad policy?

[Flatcap]

That's not what it is about. It's about Principal's objecting to Government policy in the media.

Isn't the Government their employer?

I know my company would be annoyed if I criticised it in the media

[Ixion]

Hm. Not quite the same thing.

An argument might be made that teachers should not criticise educational policy, along the lines you suggest.

But my understanding is the gag covers ALL government policy.

[James Deuce]

Isn't the Government their employer?

I know my company would be annoyed if I criticised it in the media

What a ridiculous argument. A government that feels the need to even speculate on passing a regulation like that is clearly a government in crisis.

Is everyone completely unconcerned that the people teaching our children will lose their right to free speech.

[avgas]

If it's not in the curriculum, or in response to legitimate questions by the pupils, then it's brainwashing
No its not!
You are putting this perception purely on the basis that teachers will express their impression!
Good teaches don't lecture - they prompt for the student to learn.
We have past the age of "this is how you do it" good teachers and tutors now ask "how would you do it". Children are brainwashed with TV and their parents enough for teachers to worry about it.

[Flatcap]

We have past the age of "this is how you do it" good teachers and tutors now ask "how would you do it". Children are brainwashed with TV and their parents enough for teachers to worry about it.

How do we know if a teacher is good or not? Do they have acheivement reviews?

[PrincessBandit]

In fact, children should be encouraged to call their parents by their first names and to tell them to go fuck themselves if a parent tries to tell them what to do :stupid::2guns::stupid:

Don't laugh - one teacher I work with is exactly in this situation with their own kids.

[PrincessBandit]

How do we know if a teacher is good or not? Do they have acheivement reviews?

I don't think the article was aimed at what teachers might say against the government in a classroom - I'd be surprised if there are many teachers who would enter into political assassination or grievance airing to a class full of students.
But surely teachers and principals have a right to voice concern if they feel that their occupation is being meddled with in a detrimental way - the fact that they're employed by the MoE has nothing to do with the right to freedom of speech or speaking out against perceived worrying changes.

The way you put your argument sounds like you believe that lowly employees have no right to question the almighty employer....

[Hawkeye]

I worked for ERO (Education Review office) a very hard working and severly underappreciated govt office for 15 months



Shit. Is there anywhere you haven't worked.:laugh:

[Naki Rat]

Not at school its not.
Under the age of about 15 - kids don't know shit about earning respect. If they are lucky they will have learnt it.
Imagine a 13 y/o comming home saying "That John is a fucken wanker, i Fucking hate him."
Atleast in the good old day the sentense read "Mr Bennett is a fucking wanker, I fucking hate him" - respect is maintained by default, not by choice

And in the good old days said 13 y/o would have got a kicked arse from his Dad and balance would have been restored in the world :Punk:

These days Dad would risk an assault charge if he tried that on, as would Mr. Bennett, and given a couple of years of that sort of PC BS the then 15 y/o is out causing mayhem in his hotted up shitbox car and lining themselves up for the attentions of the police and judicial system who all "have it in for him/her". WTF is up with the world :no:

[Gareth51]

Some schools have always called their teachers by their first name.

[marty]

My son (just finished yr13) has a couple of teachers as facebook friends.

'Baggsy' and 'Scottish' (scottish is the teacher's nickname - he's - well - scottish...) they call him - only the yr13s though. The kids have TOTAL respect for these guys. So much so, that when they all went on sports camp, I asked my son to try to stay out of trouble - he said 'we wouldn't do that to Baggsy'

[Sidewinder]

Two stories caught my attention while wolfing down my toast this morning:
1. Primary school children being encouraged to call their teachers by their first name.
2. State Services Commission wanting to restrict principals and teachers from criticising the government.

So here we have on one hand teachers having to put up with children calling them by their christian name (although it's supposed to be at the school's/teacher's choice...) and on the other not being allowed to speak out against the powers that be regarding concerns where politics have a worrying impact on the school system.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit screwy??
Maybe it's just me....

For the record, I have allowed some senior students in the past to call me by my first name as by year 12/13 some of them have earned that privilege (in my opinion); there are many other students who I would be very unhappy about taking that liberty.

Now that I've managed to clear my choking piece of toast and wipe my watering eyes I will go and continue getting ready for school.

do you just let the ones you sleep with call you by your first name?

[shafty]

I worked for ERO (Education Review office) a very hard working and severly underappreciated govt office for 15 months

Both stories had me concerned too
Especially the one about 'not speaking against thegovt'
WTF

Nazi'ism is illegal yeah?
Since when has NZ been a facist dictatorship?

Remove the teachers voices at great peril to our freedom, and the ability of our system to improve and develop
They ARE the front line, if anyone deserves a voice its THEM

The first name issue, I think its a possibilty of the very last bastion of respect and what was once known as 'manners' falling to modern pshyco babble

Bonding.......pfffft

What He said!

I'm based in Bahrain at the mo - I get called Sir everyday, - although I treat the greeter as an equal everytime.

A stunning co-incidence is that there is absolutely minimal crime here.................

[lb99]

I hate it when other peoples kids speak out of turn...

been doing school visits with my yooungest, constantly surrounded by brats going "whats your name?",
I reply "I am ******'s Dad"
they reply "whats your name?"
"I am ******'s Dad"
"whats your name?"
"Mr *****"
(blank stare) "whats your name?"

ffs
happens at preschool too, do people not teach kids not to speak unless spoken to anymore?

drives me nuts

[MacD]

What a ridiculous argument. A government that feels the need to even speculate on passing a regulation like that is clearly a government in crisis.

Is everyone completely unconcerned that the people teaching our children will lose their right to free speech.

Yes I am deeply concerned. Unfortunately this has been creeping into tertiary education for a while too, despite their statutory role as a "critic and conscience of society".

[rustic101]

Two stories caught my attention while wolfing down my toast this morning:
1. Primary school children being encouraged to call their teachers by their first name.
2. State Services Commission wanting to restrict principals and teachers from criticising the government.

Now that I've managed to clear my choking piece of toast and wipe my watering eyes I will go and continue getting ready for school.

the piece about National wanting to privatise school management lol. Maybe we need to add Whats Next to Whos Next.

[avgas]

How do we know if a teacher is good or not? Do they have acheivement reviews?
I talk to people. You should try it sometime.
FYI kids talk too - perhaps you could try them.

Assumption.....
Or do you want a process to make everything ok with you. How about ISO cert?

[p.dath]

How do we know if a teacher is good or not? Do they have acheivement reviews?

I understand a new review system has just been introduced to grade both teachers and schools.

Surprisingly, schools and teachers were almost unanimously against the new system being introduced, and they levelled a lot of criticism against the Government for "steam rolling" it in.

[Winston001]

I don't think their is any correlation between the use of "Mr, Ms, Miss or Mrs" and a persons first name when defining respect.



The reason we use honorifics with people whom we do not personally know is to show courtesy and respect to them. We recognise their privacy and that meeting them is at a certain level removed from friendship and intimacy.

The use of first names is common enough and once invited, doesn't mean any disrespect. It means the person you are speaking to is comfortable with you knowing them a little better and on a less formal basis. However it does remove a level of remoteness and in the classroom.....well teachers have a tough enough time with discipline anyway so I can't see first names being a winner.

[Winston001]

Respect is something earned.

Not picking on you p.dath :D but I must gently disagree.

IMHO everyone - and I mean everyone - should be treated with respect. A person then only loses this right when they do something which earns your disrespect.

I think this is one of our fundamental social problems - the attitude that we don't have to respect anyone or show them courtesy until they earn it. This opens the door to verbal abuse, vandalism, a complete dismissal of the rights of individuals and property.

[James Deuce]

I hate it when other peoples kids speak out of turn...

been doing school visits with my yooungest, constantly surrounded by brats going "whats your name?",
I reply "I am ******'s Dad"
they reply "whats your name?"
"I am ******'s Dad"
"whats your name?"
"Mr *****"
(blank stare) "whats your name?"

ffs
happens at preschool too, do people not teach kids not to speak unless spoken to anymore?

drives me nuts
No, they don't. Kids also don't know how to greet each other. Simple shit like "Good Morning" can get half a class of Kindy kids balling.

I love it.

[James Deuce]

Not picking on you p.dath :D but I must gently disagree.

IMHO everyone - and I mean everyone - should be treated with respect. A person then only loses this right when they do something which earns your disrespect.

I think this is one of our fundamental social problems - the attitude that we don't have to respect anyone or show them courtesy until they earn it. This opens the door to verbal abuse, vandalism, a complete dismissal of the rights of individuals and property.

Treat everyone like God because they are.

The "look after yiouself and fuck everyone else" ethos that permeates NZ society is truly awesome to watch in action. If it wasn't for the actions of 3 people in the last 6 years I wouldn't be here. 3 people/couples. Everyone else, including family, just fucked off into the distance when it got hard.

[Flatcap]

I talk to people. You should try it sometime.
FYI kids talk too - perhaps you could try them.

Assumption.....
Or do you want a process to make everything ok with you. How about ISO cert?

Nah -kids talk jibber-jabber and their parents talk slightly less sense

[scracha]

Nothing rude or disrespectful about it either. Just the way it is.
Totally and utterly disagree. It's just basic manners. Just like keeping your mouth shut when you're eating. I wouldn't acknowledge the kids I taught if they used my first name. I address all my customers as Sir/Madam or "Mr or Mrs such and such" unless they tell me otherwise.

My other pet peeve is the ghastly Americanism where you don't prefix someone's surname with Mr/Mrs/Miss/Dr/Whatever. Referring to someone as "Jones" or "Smith" is just ignorant IMHO. They're called honorifics for a reason.

[jrandom]

I heartily applaud the sentiments of this thread.

As a newly-minted member of the working class, I, for one, like to spend a few minutes each day in front of the mirror practicing my cap-doffing.

[James Deuce]

My other pet peeve is the ghastly Americanism where you don't prefix someone's surname with Mr/Mrs/Miss/Dr/Whatever. Referring to someone as "Jones" or "Smith" is just ignorant IMHO. They're called honorifics for a reason.

Southern Bastard Englishmen are vastly worse at that than their colonial brethren from the Americas.

[scracha]

Southern Bastard Englishmen are vastly worse at that than their colonial brethren from the Americas.
Yeah, when I worked at Lucent down in southern Englandshire it was dreadful. Seemed to be white collar slaves further up the chain than me that were the worst culprits....oh...and the marketing & HR idiots.

[James Deuce]

Worked for Racal in Hythe across The Water from Southampton. We had a good little team run by a Falkland Islander. Only one of us was Southern Bastard and he was lazy shit with a miserable attitude. The bosses though - my word.

[scracha]

Hythe eh.... Small world eh moosh moosh?

[James Deuce]

Smaller than you'd imagine. The Barrista who operated the only espresso machine above or below Bar in Southampton and I got on chatting terms fairly quickly because the locals couldn't cope with the stuff.

I come back to NZ, get a job as an IT Manager, hire an admin temp for a project, and guess who it is. She's now married to a mate's brother.

[PrincessBandit]

And now this morning, The Remarkables Primary School are going to be calling teachers "expedition leaders", teaching areas (a.k.a. classrooms in the old language, I assume) will be "campfires", meeting places will be called "watering holes" and one on one meeting areas will be called "caves".

The school receptionist will be known as "Director of First Impressions".

Wow. School was never that exciting when I was there. I really feel I've missed out on something special for all those years I was at primary school.

[steve_t]

That made me LOL like the first time I heard the people at Subway were called "Sandwich Artists" and back in the day when there were 16 year olds helping put petrol in cars called "Petroleum Transfer Technicians" :laugh: Oh and the short space of time where teachers got called "Education Facilitators" :bash: