Speeding??????

[wkid_one]

<H2>Speed demons have bulletproof attitude </H2>02 November 2003
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<TD height=5><IMG height=5 alt="" src="http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/images/null.gif" width=5 border=0></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>By MATTHEW LOWE

<B>More than a third of Kiwi drivers say they enjoy speeding on the open road, many of them believing there's little chance of an accident when they speed.</B>


The study published by the Land Transport Safety Authority (LTSA) today has transport bosses admitting road safety campaigns about speeding may need an overhaul.

Transport Minister Paul Swain says the results show many drivers think they're "bulletproof" while breaking speed limits and more work is needed to reduce the annual death toll to 300 by 2010. More than 450 people have died on the roads in the past 12 months.

A quarter of 1640 people questioned nationwide for the annual LTSA report, including 1450 holders of a driver's licence, believe most people who get caught speeding are just unlucky. Just under one in four admitted driving drunk in the last year - the same level as four years ago.

"In the old days people felt sorry for those caught drink driving but now they think they are a bloody idiot because they could be wiping out families," said Swain.

"But with speeding we haven't quite got the attitude that excess speeding can cause death. That group still has a bulletproof attitude and we are just going to have to work harder to point out to those people that's not the case. People are perhaps now saturated by the blood and guts adverts and we are seeing a shift to more educational and informative campaigns."

Swain hopes a shift in public attitude will come off the back of an innovative educational campaign being unveiled by the LTSA later this month. It would not release details of the campaign.

The minister is also due to announce a range of enforcement measures next month that will target repeat drink-drivers and speeding.

Dave Walden, who runs Auckland advertising agency Whybin/TBWA, said the focus of road safety campaigns needed to have a more positive emphasis to get the message across.

"We hear a lot about being a bloody idiot but do not hear a lot about the amount of money being spent by the government on improving roads and safety features.

"People always want to know what's in it for them and if the effect of previous advertising campaigns wears off then you need to look at it and modify it.

"With shock tactics the first time you shock people and the second time they turn off. The blood and guts adverts can be fairly negative and that turns a lot of people off and means they avoid the message. Therefore the money behind the campaign can be wasted."

LTSA spokesman Andy Knackstedt said despite the findings the organisation was happy with its progress as alcohol and speed-related fatal crashes had dropped.

In 1995 there were 182 speed-related deaths compared to 110 in the past year, a drop from 32% to 26% of the total road toll respectively.

Fatal accidents where alcohol was a factor fell from 162 to 95 during the same period, representing 36% to 30% of all road victims for those years.

"It's obvious there is still a group of people drinking and driving and if we are going to reduce that number further then we need to look at doing more to discourage that kind of behaviour," said Knackstedt.

Automobile Association spokesman George Fairbairn said people continued to speed because they felt increasingly safe in modern cars or were too impatient.

"Driving at speed isn't safe but we're all guilty of it. People take risks and some drivers aren't necessarily always keeping their speed at a safe level to the conditions at the time.

"While you may feel more safe because the cars are more safe and have more capabilities the road isn't necessarily forgiving."

Of those surveyed, 79% agreed enforcing the speed limit helped lower the road toll and nearly two-thirds supported the use of speed cameras to reduce the number of deaths.

[SPman]

Hey, I've got an idea!

Lets have a limit of 10kmph and have a man with a red flag walking in front!.........oops, no, sorry thats been tried before&nbsp; :confused2:

[Jackrat]

As soon as I become President I will ban all non two wheeled private transport,Trade vehicules will all be under ground or restricted to boring roads and driven by ex highway patrol cops,
after all they are all going to need a job because there will be no speed limits.Any body older than me will be restricted to motor scooters,unless their my mates of course.Boy racers that owned little red jap imports will be melted down along with all ex BMW car owners and used as road fill.All people that never had a bike licence before I am elected will be made to use public transport an there won,t be any,so that sorts them fuckers out.The ministry
of works will be made to put all the corners back where they found them,only with the correct camber this time.Car makers currently operating in NZ will be encouraged to shift over to the manufacter of high performance motor cycles and parts for same,or sodd off,They would of course be given a resonable time frame to change over,say two weeks.Any body currently involed in the speeding fine industry will be escorted to a dark building where I will see to them personaly,with the help of a few stainless steel instruments formaly used in dentistry.
And then we come to child molesters,P makers an dealers,Rapists,
Murderers,Politicans I don,t belive,The royal family,Any kind of gang member,ect ect ect ect ect ect.
Campain donations will be greatfully recived an repayed in fuel vouchers when I get in.You can trust me,far go mate would I lie to you.

[Motu]

I'll be sending you some MTA vouchers soon Jack - um...El Prezident eh? maybe we could get the old Toyota factory in Thames to churn out XS 650s as public transport or sumit,like,just leave them lying around on the street for anyone to jump on an go where they want.

[Lou Girardin]

"A survey of 1640 people, 1460 of whom had licences".
Doesn't that just take the cake. What next, political polls of people that can't vote.
Typical LTSA morons.

[jrandom]

Originally posted by Lou Girardin
"A survey of 1640 people, 1460 of whom had licences". Doesn't that just take the cake.

Made oi chuckle indeed.

I also love the implicit assumption that if lots of people think it, it must be right...

That's the problem with democracy. Government of the incompetent, by the incompetent and for the incompetent.

[marty]

Originally posted by SPman
Hey, I've got an idea!

Lets have a limit of 10kmph and have a man with a red flag walking in front!.........oops, no, sorry thats been tried before&nbsp; :confused2:

someone still got killed when the limit was 10k - got ran over....

[scumdog]

I guess the big differences between drink-driving and speeding are: You can speed due to inattention - and the inattention can kill you without the speed!!
You can speed for a few minutes or so and slow down and again be 'legal'
You are 'visible' as a speeder - to public and Police.
You can easily remain under the speed limit when riding along but you can't remain so easily under the limit if you have been drinking and then ride.
At the end of the day I would hope someone going a bit quick is more predictable and less of a hazard than someone a bit drunk (who is also likely to speed.)
As a young guy (a long time ago!!!) I quickly found out I could drive fast OR drive drunk but not both at the same time. :o

[What?]

The first recorded fatal&nbsp;automobile crash involved the giddy speed of 7 miles per hour! Absolute hooliganism!! Deserved to die!!!

How soon are the presidential elections? Reckon I will vote for Jack.

Seriously (?!?) What a pack of wallies the LTSA are. ALL crashes involve speed. Stationary objects are not renowned for colliding with other stationary objects. :angry2::angry2::angry2:

[Motoracer]

I know this sounds a bit unrealistic but in my opinion those who want to take the responsibility of operating a performance or even an average motor vehicle should have to undergo training/tests to comply with racing standards. If they can pass these tests then they can have a license stateing their ability thus giving them the authority to drive/ride accordingly.

If a person is not passionate or committed to go through all this trouble then let them have a normal license. Which would mean that they will have certain restrictions preventing them from getting into too much trouble but at the same time allowing them to fill their basic needs. E.g. getting from point A to B, transfer goods etc

I mean, really... who is safer? The average inexperienced learner at 100Kmph or Valentino Rossi or Michel Shumarcar at 200Kmph. I reckon safety comes from proper training and with experience of course. Saying that, I'd also like to say that even the best rider/driver could be a menace on the road if the Attitude isn't right...

[fritter]

Of course, they could just improve driver training (racing standards wouldn't hurt!) and the roads...

Why is it that in all those accident adverts, the idiot in the car locks the brakes? If he'd learnt to drive properly, he'd know that NOT slamming on the brake would stop him in under half the distance, avoiding the accident in the first place etc.

It isn't the speed that kills - it's the quick stop :D

Besides, Rossi, Shumacher etc don't go at speeds they can't handle for the road they are on. They know that the corner coming up can be taken at 250K (they've done it a thousand times before to work it out), and that there isn't a dead possum lying on the apex around that blind corner etc. Common sense goes a long way. Maybe they could teach that somehow...

I'll vote for jackrat I think...

[Lou Girardin]

Now, I know I'd get one of those high speed licences in a second.:D But I'd hate to meet one of those slow licence people around a blind corner.
How about refresher tests every ten years or so for everyone. Think you'd pass?
The people on court ordered driving tests thought so too. Boy, were they pissed off when they didn't.
Lou

[k14]

Yeah, the LTSA pisses me off at how narrow minded and arrogant they are.

Studies have showed that in countries where the speed limit was increased, the road toll decreased just because people werent taking as many risks overtaking etc. It is really becoming a joke.

I read in the paper a few weeks ago about this 72 year old lady. She failed to give way and took out 3 bikers, paralyzing one, and breaking the other two's legs. A week before the police had "recommended" that the lady not drive any more. This is just bullshit. She has wrecked 3 guys lives and doesnt even get in trouble for it. Doesnt it make you sick :angry2: :angry2:

What is next?? Drop the open road limit to 80 and give a ticket for doing 82. Exactly like auzzie, where u can get done for doing 2 over the limit, and it happens regularly!!

[SPman]

Originally posted by fritter
Of course, they could just improve driver training (racing standards wouldn't hurt!) and the roads... ...

Common sense goes a long way. Maybe they could teach that somehow...

I'll vote for jackrat I think...

It seems to be having an effect though, all this blethering on about speed...coming back from Wellington by Van&nbsp;with all our lovely single lane main thoroughfares, I found most people sitting on about 85 -&nbsp;90....except...where there was a passing lane! Then.....110 + everyone, and that was just the truck and trailers!......No one shall pass! (but then, don't let me start about "professional" truck drivers!)

No wonder I&nbsp;prefer travelling by bike!

The laws are targeted at the average steerer (I refuse to call most of them drivers) and anyone else is just swept up in the net!

How do you teach people, basic, road-user friendly, attitudes?

&nbsp;Common sense - if only.

&nbsp;Basic road driving skills would be a start, followed after&nbsp;6 months&nbsp;by advanced, then more advanced courses involving skid pans, collision avoidance and vehicle confidence courses with practical training involving cause and effect situations............but that costs, so its a non starter.

Cheaper to just hammer everyone into submission!

[marty]

since when has being a world class high speed driver saved anyone? with full respect, it couldn't save possum bourne when (another) trained high speed driver (allegedly) was somehwere that he shouldn't have been

god help us at 200kph (or any speed for that matter) with johnny 15 year old out with farmer joe learning to drive the family falcon/tractor/landcruiser :(

[Lou Girardin]

The main difference between NZ and many countries with lower road tolls is driver attitude and training. It's so difficult and expensive to get a licence in the first place, that people respect and value it. They also tend to be more aware and considerate, you have to be when you have cars closing at 250km/h +. Their road laws are more sensible too. You won't see trucks in the faster lanes of an Autobahn, for example.
Whereas, in good old NZ, the LTSA is talking about doing away with actual licence tests.:argh:

[wkid_one]

Originally posted by marty
since when has being a world class high speed driver saved anyone? with full respect, it couldn't save possum bourne when (another) trained high speed driver (allegedly) was somehwere that he shouldn't have been

god help us at 200kph (or any speed for that matter) with johnny 15 year old out with farmer joe learning to drive the family falcon/tractor/landcruiser :(

Look at Ron from Superbike Magazine, raced in the TT, raced in the BSBK and then crashes a SCOOTER in to the back of a car and dies.

Training isn't the option to fix it alone - money also needs to be poured in to the roading infrastructure in NZ.&nbsp; Our intercity 'highway' - consists of a two lane road, patched in a million places, stock crossing all over the place, a ditch on each side, concrete culvets and bridges everywhere, non-shear up lamp-posts strategically placed every 20 metres, no median barrier, nothing on the edge of the road but a fog line, driveways entering and exiting the 'highway', city centres on the highway, a minimum tolerated speed of 40kph (yes - this is all you need to be able to sustain to drive on any NZ road), farm equipment on the road, potholes and they wonder why people are dying on NZ roads.

Rossi et all speed because the K N O W the condition of the road - how many of these guys fall off when there is oil on the track - shit loads why?&nbsp; cause they don't expect it.

Training will make good drivers on still shit roads.&nbsp;

Also - there is the law of diminishing returns - we are experiencing INCREASING numbers of vehicles on the road and increasing numbers of miles being done by drivers - HOW THE FUCK CAN WE EXPECT THE TOLL TO COME DOWN???&nbsp; this makes no sense.&nbsp; There is and has to be a statistically accepted number of fatalities based on the number of drivers and miles done - they however are plucking a stupid figure out of mid air - it is ridiculous.

I speed, I drag my knee on the road, I overtake when I probably shouldn't, I RISK MY LIFE - however I choose to do this.&nbsp; The Government in NZ is risking all our lives by neglecting the part the roading conditions have.

Imagine a Utopian roading situation like this.&nbsp; You have a motorway - 2 lanes each way between Auckland and Wellington and Wellington and Invercargil.&nbsp; There are no cities on the route - you take off ramp of secondary motorways to other cities.&nbsp; There is a median barrier which is safe to ALL road users (not like the cheese grater barriers that are in vogue at the moment), and a barrier to the edge of the road preventing ingress from traffic off the road, all crossing are completed by under or over pass.&nbsp; There are no lights, it is all done via off and on ramps - HOW MANY FATALITIES WOULD BE EXPECT??

We seem to be happy to spend money of adverts, and POLICING traffic but a fucken government REFUSES to INVEST money in the future by designing SAFE roading infrastructure.

Sorry - this is a bugbear of mine.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

[Redstar]

When I was 21 back in..never mind I went to USA for a month plus and met..never mind.. but in california they rewarded good drivers with a gold licence. that entitled the holder to discounts on insurance and if you got stopped for a mista mina (is that latin for little offence?) your were more likely to get a butt kick than a fine or demerit. It was worth looking after. The whole system we have is punative and punishment based and does 25 years of clean licence count for Jack sh*t no! but it should.
the residavist offender has so many demerits and fines the whole process becomes a joke but if we rewarded the average joe it might turn a few around?
I would write to Paul Swain and suggest it but he wound'dt reply nor would Rick (I got a bonnie)Barker so I wont waste the postage or maybe I just might.

[SPman]

The crap road north from Wellington really gets me. Roundabouts and traffic lights in the middle of what appears to be a Motorway???? Followed by a single lane no passing zone for 10k, with a further 50k of mainly single lane "highway" populated by doddering incompetents!

And the Hutt Road. What appears to be a motorway with feckin driveways onto it, which keeps morphing into city streets then back to highway, etc. Christ it was a releif to get to the actual Rimatuka twisties!

Also, because you have the skills to drive at high speeds, doesnt mean you will automatically go everywhere at high speeds. What it does give you is a greater understanding and appreciation of all the factors that make the whole road/driving/riding experience and a better basis on which to make judgements about how fast you can safely travel for any given road/traffic/weather/obstacle situation. (generally)

Also, if you are used to travelling at higher speeds, your automatic drive functions are capable of coping with all the driving tasks at road legal speeds, whilst&nbsp;you can spend more time looking for obstacles etc, instead of coping with the demands of actually controlling the vehicle at 100k!&nbsp;(dont laugh - a LOT of people find just coping with controlling a (car) at 100 k hard work in itself)

[SPman]

Originally posted by marty
since when has being a world class high speed driver saved anyone? with full respect, it couldn't save possum bourne when (another) trained high speed driver (allegedly) was somehwere that he shouldn't have been

god help us at 200kph (or any speed for that matter) with johnny 15 year old out with farmer joe learning to drive the family falcon/tractor/landcruiser :(

You just have to remember that with speed comes responsibility. The laws of physics still apply and if you hit something.......! And mistakes will still happen, regardless of skill, experience or whatever. I'm not an advocate for open slather speeding on the highway because there are too many variables and inconsistancies. What I would like to see is a better level of road skills among the bulk of drivers and a more common sense approach to variable speeds according to conditions, etc, not the robotic application of inflexible laws hammering everyone down to the lowest common denominator ostensibly for "our own good" to make politicians look good!:argh::whocares::beer::ar15:

[Lou Girardin]

Dead right too, wkid one. Put the cages on motorways and leave 'B' roads to us. (and make sure they're swept). Mind you, Euro secondary roads aren't much better than ours. It's just that fewer people use them.
The Targa showed the difference between track and road driving, many of the 'stars' were right out of their depth on unfamiliar roads.:Oops:

[fritter]

Originally posted by Lou Girardin

The Targa showed the difference between track and road driving, many of the 'stars' were right out of their depth on unfamiliar roads.

That's the difference - anyone can go fast when they've done the same circuit a million times. The differences between the highest level riders/drivers are down to tenths of seconds and less, since they've all got their own reference points dialed in to (almost) perfection. You can't do that when it's a blind corner which might have gravel/a car wreck/a dead cow/horse shit etc just out of sight.

And the Targa is still far less likely to have hazards like the above...

[fritter]

and no, before anyone jumps up and down, I am not suggesting that just anyone could be within a hundreth of a second of Rossi's times after getting some decent track time in :D

but there is a reason why all the TOP LEVEL guys are all so close, and they aren't normally that far above the REALLY good riders, who aren't that far ahead of the pretty good riders who aren't that far ahead of the... etc etc...

[SPman]

I always reckon riding/driving on real roads is a skill as much as high speed racing! Being able to read the road, conditions, traffic, weather and thenhave that extra intuitive "feeling" for what may be around the next corner, particularly on a new road to you, is what I really enjoy.

Sure, you can go really fast on the roundy rounds, but it all seems so meaningless after a while......

How many top race riders, ride on the roads! Not very many! They all reckon it's too dangerous!

[Marmoot]

SP: "Steerer" vs "driver"....I like that term :2thumbsup

Anyway, also how about acknowledging the risk? Moving things tend to get damaged upon crashes, and if the government doesn't want to acknowledge this risk then we might as well ban all motor vehicles and have the lowest roadtoll in the world, eh?
Frankly speaking, their current goal is not realistic at all. The principle of "this year has to be better than last year" is not realistic considering the diminishing result trend.
Couple that with stereotyping, then we'll have state-victimization.

Officially, according to national statistics, I'm classified either as speed-freak (because I ride plastic bike), or boyracer (because I drive sport car and I'm quite young), or asian driver (because, ahem, I'm asian), or an immigrant. Whether I don't speed at all or I work hard or I pay my taxes, they don't care. I'm just a risk to the ACC as far as they're concerned.

[SPman]

Originally posted by Marmoot
Couple that with stereotyping, then we'll have state-victimization.
.

We haven't already????:confused:

[Ricamortise]

Originally posted by marty
someone still got killed when the limit was 10k - got ran over....

Prolly DI rf

(Drunk in charge of red flag)