Assisted suicide - an author's view

[Ronin]

I found this in my wanderings on teh interweb. I found it moving and thought provoking.

For the 3 of you who don't know, Terry Pratchett is the author of the Disc World series of books (amongst others) who was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers.

It's a long read but worth it.


'I believe that if the burden gets too great, those who wish should be allowed to be shown the door,' he said. 'In my case, in the fullness of time, I hope it will be in the garden under an English sky. Or, if wet, the library.'



http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1203622/Ill-die-endgame-says-Terry-Pratchett-law-allow-assisted-suicides-UK.html

[Trudes]

I hope someone puts me down like I would my cat if he got too old or sick to enjoy life any more. Kindest thing you can do for some people. Should be allowed to be a personal choice. JMHO.

[Karl08]

Passive or Active Euthanasia- I am not fussed, people should have the chance to die with dignity.

I am all for it.

[Hitcher]

Despite some high profile cases that define the extremes of the spectrum of views on this matter, the bits in between are an ethical minefield.

People should be able to live and die with dignity. I have issues about people being able to choose the time of their death on their own terms (suicide), particularly when this comes as a shock to their friends and families who can be burdened with guilt and grief for years afterwards, and sometimes that never gets satisfactorily resolved.

I once worked with a guy who took his own life. The person who found him was his six-year-old son who opened the garage door and found his dad hanging. Lovely.

"Assisted suicide" is a concept that covers a range of territory from manslaughter at one end, to consensual medical intervention at the other. In other words, at least 256 shades of grey. It's no wonder legislators struggle with this.

Modern palliative care means nobody needs to die in pain, if they can afford it. How much of this that should be funded by taxpayers is another subject for debate.

As an atheist I don't believe in life after death or "eternal damnation" or other such measures dreamed up to incentivise or disincentivise suicide. As an atheist I believe that every second we are alive should be worth living -- both personal worth and the worth of our friends, family and those who love us.

[Skyryder]

The issue I have with Euthanasia is the bit 'thou shalt not kill.' While there are no doubt many valid reasons where an indavidul decides to end their life the problems arise where murder could be hidden under the guise of assisted suicide. Then there is the ethical dilema of assistance and the technicalites of actually carrying out the procedure. Should this be a buisness where people get paid for this?? Make euthanasia lawfull and in time this will be removed from the doctor to their assistant and before long there will be private euthanasia clinics. Nope I'm afraid no matter what arguements their are for.......... the stronger arguement 'is' against.


Skyryder

[Mom]

Suicide is an horrendous thing to be close to.

I have some very strong views on it.

Allowing someone to die in abject misery is an horrendous thing to be close to.

I have some very strong views on tht too.

Assisting them to die as painlessly and peacefully as possible, surrounded by the love of their family and friends is one thing. Putting a pillow over their face is another all together.

[Ronin]

Modern palliative care means nobody needs to die in pain, if they can afford it. How much of this that should be funded by taxpayers is another subject for debate.



It was interesting to read Pratchett saying the same thing and then noting that having your brain rot away is a wholly different matter.

It is an ethical and moral minefield. Suicide as a means to end emotional pain is abhorrent. The question is where do we draw the line?

I have a feeling that as a person of relatively sound mind and body, I will only be qualified to answer if I am ever in the position of having to decide myself.

[Hitcher]

Mom, you've described the issues more succintly than I did. And you've also illustrated why law makers struggle with this. The state government of Northern Territory was lauded by liberals when it legislated for euthanasia some years ago. However the Australian Federal government had the presence of mind to overturn that when this legislation proved to be problematic in its intent and interpretation.

[Hitcher]

I will only be qualified to answer if I am ever in the position of having to decide myself.

Or not. There are many stories of couples entering into pre-altzheimers pacts and then sadly forgetting that they had them. Life can be a bitch, but mostly it's way better than the alternative.

[Ronin]

The issue I have with Euthanasia is the bit 'thou shalt not kill.' While there are no doubt many valid reasons where an indavidul decides to end their life the problems arise where murder could be hidden under the guise of assisted suicide. Then there is the ethical dilema of assistance and the technicalites of actually carrying out the procedure. Should this be a buisness where people get paid for this?? Make euthanasia lawfull and in time this will be removed from the doctor to their assistant and before long there will be private euthanasia clinics. Nope I'm afraid no matter what arguements their are for.......... the stronger arguement 'is' against.


Skyryder

All very good points. The devils advocate would ask how would you feel if you were faced with the slow loss of who you are?

I like the idea of using Coroners in the process. I can't help but feel that in the right circumstance the process could be managed. But only in the right and very narrow circumstance.

[Ronin]

Or not. There are many stories of couples entering into pre-altzheimers pacts and then sadly forgetting that they had them. Life can be a bitch, but mostly it's way better than the alternative.

There is a certain irony in that. Don't get me wrong. I'm an atheist and think that the happily ever afterlife is about as likely as a certain manufacturer honouring a warranty.

The loss of intellect scares the shite out of me.

[Ronin]

Suicide is an horrendous thing to be close to.

I have some very strong views on it.

Allowing someone to die in abject misery is an horrendous thing to be close to.

I have some very strong views on tht too.

Assisting them to die as painlessly and peacefully as possible, surrounded by the love of their family and friends is one thing. Putting a pillow over their face is another all together.

Good answers there Mom.

[MadDuck]

People should be able to live and die with dignity.

Yes they should. I have been subjected to a mate who decided life was just too hard. Suicide by someone who really didnt need to go there. What an ass!

I have also had to make to decision to end a life legally through the turning off of life support.

To be honest it was easier making the decision to legally say goodbye to someone that I cared for deeply. Knowing they would not truely recover and would not want to live in a vegatative state.

I now have a living will that gives one person the right to make the decision without legal ramifications.

[Hitcher]

I now have a living will that gives one person the right to make the decision without legal ramifications.

Really? I think you'll find that you can't contract out of the law or give somebody consent to murder you.

[MadDuck]

Really? I think you'll find that you can't contract out of the law or give somebody consent to murder you.

Sorry maybe I wasnt quite clear. Not murder but the legal ability to say turn off the machines. She wouldnt want to be kept alive just in case a miracle cure is found.....

[Ronin]

Sorry maybe I wasnt qute clear. Not murder but the legal ability to say turn off the machines. She wouldnt want to be kept alive just in case a miracle cure is found.....

That would still have to be with medical consent though?

[MadDuck]

That would still have to be with medical consent though?

But thats not what this thread was about. Sorry I took it off topic. As you were.

[Ronin]

But thats not what this thread was about. Sorry I took it off topic. As you were.

Not at all. It's all related.

[allycatz]

I think people should have opportunity to make a 'living will' n the presence of lawyer, Dr and Enduring Power of attorney. You should be able to state at which point you would like to call it quits IF you have a terminal disease. I dont think i should be available for any other reason...too hard to keep ethical. Indirect euthanasia is commom now anyway, once someone terminally ill and end stage goes on a morphine pump, the body shuts down very quickly and peacefully as the organs fail and morphine levels increase

[Skyryder]

All very good points. The devils advocate would ask how would you feel if you were faced with the slow loss of who you are?

I like the idea of using Coroners in the process. I can't help but feel that in the right circumstance the process could be managed. But only in the right and very narrow circumstance.

Agreed but like most laws once they get in then it's only a matter of time before they get changed and there is no guarentees that any change will be for the betterment of the patient.

There are some bad ways to die and some very valid arguments for euthanasia. It's one of those issues where both sides can make valid points for and against. My one just comes down to the basics of life. At the end of the day it comes down to the lawful taking of life. There is doubt in my mind on this. One only has to look at history where euthanasia was lawfull. Where will it stop?? Defective babies? Mental illness, social misfits etc. The only way I know not to go down this road is not to buy the ticket on the bus that travels that way.


Skyryder

[Mom]

Or not. There are many stories of couples entering into pre-altzheimers pacts and then sadly forgetting that they had them. Life can be a bitch, but mostly it's way better than the alternative.

I will tell a different story about this. My step father was a hard man, he had lived a life and then some. He was no saint, in fact he was horrible and then some at times, but he loved and cherished my Mother. I loved him for that.

We had a bit of an understanding me and Bert (not his real name). He asked me to shoot him if he ever was left a vegetable, he never wanted to not be in control of his facalties. He had a stroke, a big one, followed by another one. I wished him dead frankly, he was left a shell. However he came back, no speech and no Bert. He had dementia, he finished his life in a place that no one should ever have to live in.

When it first happened and during the first year or so I watched him and looked for signs of distress. There were none. I honestly can say he looked better than he did when he was well. It was like the weight of the world was off his shoulders and he just chilled out. He was not the Bert that I knew and loved, but he was a Bert that was alive, and well and as happy as a Bert can be. I could not have shot him if I tried.

[Mom]

I think people should have opportunity to make a 'living will' n the presence of lawyer, Dr and Enduring Power of attorney. You should be able to state at which point you would like to call it quits IF you have a terminal disease. I dont think i should be available for any other reason...too hard to keep ethical. Indirect euthanasia is commom now anyway, once someone terminally ill and end stage goes on a morphine pump, the body shuts down very quickly and peacefully as the organs fail and morphine levels increase

People have that right now. My Mother is not well. She has a living will if you like. She has clearly instructed the doctors to take no special measures to resusitate her for what ever reason she fronts them. It is on file. I have POA and am very clear about her wishes. She has a life link and often turns up at ED via ambulance. They treat the symptoms, no special measures. One day soon she will die. All I want for her is a peaceful, painless, easy death. I will do my damndest to ensure that happens.

[MadDuck]

People have that right now. My Mother is not well. She has a living will if you like. She has clearly instructed the doctors to take no special measures to resusitate her for what ever reason she fronts them. It is on file. I have POA and am very clear about her wishes. She has a life link and often turns up at ED via ambulance. They treat the symptoms, no special measures. One day soon she will die. All I want for her is a peaceful, painless, easy death. I will do my damndest to ensure that happens.

Even with instructions its not an easy thing to go through.

Did I tell everyone how much I hate Christmas?

[allycatz]

People have that right now. My Mother is not well. She has a living will if you like. She has clearly instructed the doctors to take no special measures to resusitate her for what ever reason she fronts them. It is on file. I have POA and am very clear about her wishes. She has a life link and often turns up at ED via ambulance. They treat the symptoms, no special measures. One day soon she will die. All I want for her is a peaceful, painless, easy death. I will do my damndest to ensure that happens.

My Mum was the same but living wills only really enforce the DNR instructions. NZ still doesn't have laws allowing someone to have their life terminated. I'm thinking more about end stage cancers and similar terminal disease. Having nursed palliative care, there is no way I would want to get past a certain stage ie totally reliant on personal cares, comatose etc

[Mom]

My Mum was the same but living wills only really enforce the DNR instructions. NZ still doesn't have laws allowing someone to have their life terminated. I'm thinking more about end stage cancers and similar terminal disease. Having nursed palliative care, there is no way I would want to get past a certain stage ie totally reliant on personal cares, comatose etc

I nursed too, have done many death watch shifts.

I lost a very dear friend many years ago. She was non communicative for days and days. That endless journey of loving someone while they die. Nothing from her for days. We all took turns to sit with her and read to her or hold her hand, or talk to her, or just be there.

The night before she died I was sitting on the bed with her, just talking shit as I do, she reached up and scratched her head! This from someone that had not moved or spoken in days! I felt terrible as I knew her head must have been very itchy for her to have found some energy to scratch it. I told her I would wash her hair for her in the morning, and she smiled. She was not far away mate, just slipping away slowly. We had total care of her, it was an honour for me to part of her journey. She died 12 hours later.

[riffer]

I buried my grandmother a couple of days short of three weeks ago.

Grace was 92, and had suffered from Alzheimers for at least 10 years, to the point of where she could only remember her childhood, and not much more.

In the end she decided to not eat any more. And it took a month until she died. It was actually pneumonia that took her.

The grandchildren had POA as my parents didn't want to know and skipped the country leaving her to it. We had a DNR and the rest home were great, just made her as comfy as they could and we just sat with her until she was done.

Not much else we could do; she wasn't in pain, just not the Nan I remember from when I was a kid. It's funny how people get lucid and alert just before they die though. I'll never get that one.

I still don't really have an opinion on assisted suicide though... I wonder if it had been available if we'd have taken the option. But somehow I feel that would have reduced us to the same level as my parents.

And I'm not sure if I'd like to carry that with me for the rest of my life.

[allycatz]

I buried my grandmother a couple of days short of three weeks ago.

Grace was 92, and had suffered from Alzheimers for at least 10 years, to the point of where she could only remember her childhood, and not much more.

In the end she decided to not eat any more. And it took a month until she died. It was actually pneumonia that took her.

My Mum refused to eat after her last stroke too, she was in the hospital where I worked, she would lay there looking at me with a "ive had a gutsfull of this look". It was hard for my sisters, they didnt understand that it was Mums choice not to eat or drink and to force fluids into her mouth may of drowned her.

I think an assisted suicide would have to be when a person is still able to verbally convey their feelings, because the decision has to be THEIR decision and not relatives. Otherwise it would be like organ donations, ie a family can over rule. It would be very much an individual decision and depend alot on whether someone accepts their own mortality. So often the terminally ill hang on because the living wont let go. When you talk to the families and get them to tell their loved ones not to be afraid and its okay to let go, many pass away very quickly

[Winston001]

I found this in my wanderings on teh interweb. I found it moving and thought provoking.

For the 3 of you who don't know, Terry Pratchett is the author of the Disc World series of books (amongst others) who was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers.

It's a long read but worth it.





http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1203622/Ill-die-endgame-says-Terry-Pratchett-law-allow-assisted-suicides-UK.html

Thanks for posting this. I enjoy Terry Pratchett enormously and hadn't realised what he is facing. His article and the thoughtful posts in this thread are very moving.

Euthanasia is a complex ethical and moral dilemma. By the time a person desperately seeks the release of death they may not be able to communicate it. So when is the "end point" reached?

Still, on balance I'm in favour of assisted suicide given the medical and legal protections available today. It simply seems merciful.