The snakes is coming back! [Archive]

StoneY

10th December 2009, 10:02

dipshit

10th December 2009, 10:04

So how do we find out if Ginger joins traffic or not?

Ysually the ones that failed the police training college ended up in the MoT.

wysper

10th December 2009, 10:06

I think this is a good move too.
Hopefully they bring back the panda cars too!! :second:

ManDownUnder

10th December 2009, 10:07

Ysually the ones that failed the police training college ended up in the MoT.

He'll be on Traffic for sure then...

Swoop

10th December 2009, 10:15

Also interesting, is the use of firearms by the average (shooting skills = below average) bobby.
And in another high-level proposal, up to 40 per cent of police in main cities will no longer be able to use guns - a move away from the current system, which gives firearms training to every officer.

Cost savings? Manpower waste on "requalification" training??

StoneY

10th December 2009, 10:15

Ysually the ones that failed the police training college ended up in the MoT.

Utter fuckin bullshit dude
Were you even riding/driving back then?

The TRAFFIC cops joined MOT to be TRAFFIC cops, they wre never 'second choice' options

Dads best mate was a TC when the merge happened, he never wanted to be a policeman, he only ever wanted to chase speeders and remove drink drivers off our roads

Another BS myth, you aint related to Nick perchance are ya?

slofox

10th December 2009, 10:15

"transport enforcement officers".....FCS...dunne just mean "traffic cops?" Call 'em what they are, not some fuckin fancy geek speak name...

But yes. it is a good idea IMO...put 'em in old cars an we can outrun them...

PirateJafa

10th December 2009, 10:24

But yes. it is a good idea IMO...put 'em in old cars an we can outrun them...

Don't be stupid.

They'll be doing this so that they can give them the big shiny Holden Commodores, and then they can give the general duty police officers diesel Holden Astras like in the UK.

Bald Eagle

10th December 2009, 10:29

Never thought I'd hear myself say it, but Howard Broad is talking sense (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10614504)

They already have dedicated traffic cops, but the problem is those are fully trained front line police officers, doing a very limited task.

I agree with Howard on using officially designated traffic officers.
Far less manoey needed to train them as opposed to full cops, free's cops up to bust P labs, and allows for a focussed traffic safety approach to road management as opposed to 'revenue collection by Police'

A great move forward (far from backwards) The closure of the dedicated road policing unit of MOT in 1990 was a huge mistake IMHO

A great idea they never should have merged them, the only thing I agreed with was removing the old City council Traffic Officers ( Mt Albert / Wgtn and Auckland City council (ACC - ironic eh )

dipshit

10th December 2009, 10:38

Utter fuckin bullshit dude
Were you even riding/driving back then?

Yes i was.

The TRAFFIC cops joined MOT to be TRAFFIC cops, they wre never 'second choice' options

While there were recruits that went straight into the MoT... some trainees that weren't doing so well at police training college went into the MoT as well.

So failed police training college recruits did go into the MoT. That's not saying all MoT officers were failed police recruits.

I trust this logic isn't beyond your comprehension..???

Mikkel

10th December 2009, 10:46

The first paragraph is lovely, it shows us where the problem is:

New specialist traffic officers will be used to issue speeding tickets, freeing police to concentrate on fighting crime.

Because that is what traffic policing in New Zealand boils down to. And how sad that is, there's so much more to work with really. At least they admit that speeding isn't a crime...

And the proposed segregation is a pretty silly idea as well. It'd be much better to instruct the police officers to only spend time enforcing traffic violations when they felt it justified to do so - and that they be encouraged to use their own discretion.
At least, if they go back to the old system I hope they put the silly "Have to wear a Hat" rule back into practice - I can see how that could be a lot of fun.

neels

10th December 2009, 11:06

Of course what all of this means is probably more cops on the road, with proper police still being able to issue traffic infringements as well as traffic officers who are specifically issuing traffic tickets.

They probably need to increase their manpower to stop all those bikes to check registration once the new ACC levies come in.

roogazza

10th December 2009, 11:12

While there were recruits that went straight into the MoT... some trainees that weren't doing so well at police training college went into the MoT as well.

So failed police training college recruits did go into the MoT. That's not saying all MoT officers were failed police recruits.

Getting near the facts ! If a recruit failed at the Police college they could well apply to attend the MOT school if they wished to be a traffic Cop.
They were totally separate departments and standards/requirements were vastly different in those days.

Ixion

10th December 2009, 11:27

Bear in mind that even back in MoT days, the "proper" police *could* issue tickets for traffic offences. Just, they hardly ever bothered unless it was something real serious. I imagine the same will happen with a new traffic department after a while. Police will use discretion unless it's blatent.

BoristheBiter

10th December 2009, 11:27

StoneY

10th December 2009, 11:31

Yes i was.

While there were recruits that went straight into the MoT... some trainees that weren't doing so well at police training college went into the MoT as well.

So failed police training college recruits did go into the MoT. That's not saying all MoT officers were failed police recruits.

I trust this logic isn't beyond your comprehension..???

Totally different training colleges, totally different organisations, totally different recruiting standards

Police back before the training college in Papakowhai opened trained in Auckland somewhere, MOT trained in Trentham on a dedicated section of the Army base there, opposite the at the time GM factory

The Papkowhai College opened, and not long after MOT was disbanded, never the twain met, EVER so where you get this idea 'failed cops became MOT' I have no idea

There was no cross training, no shared central comms, they both had totally seperate systems, training, and resources until 1990

MOT avoided failed cop applicants as policy, they wanted people dedicated to the role, not accepting second best option, and the same reasons they failed Police would have often made them less than appealing to MOT who had a very high recruiting bar.
I personally know one failed MOT applicant that successfully joined the Police!

He failed to come up to the standards required in motor vehicle handling skills with MOT, Police took him in instantly, go figure that one out

Ixion

10th December 2009, 11:42

..

There was no cross training, no shared central comms, they both had totally seperate systems, training, and resources until 1990

MOT avoided failed cop applicants as policy, they wanted people dedicated to the role, not accepting second best option, and the same reasons they failed Police would have often made them less than appealing to MOT who had a very high recruiting bar.
I personally know one failed MOT applicant that successfully joined the Police!

He failed to come up to the standards required in motor vehicle handling skills with MOT, Police took him in instantly, go figure that one out

That's quite logical. MoT focused on vehicle stuff, driving AND RIDING skills were critical. Police, that was a much lower priority. Different skill sets, different people.

Which is why the merger was a bad idea. Police is about catching criminals, rules of evidence , all that stuff. Traffic is about keeping the roads safe and trying to make people drive competently and safely (and being able to catch the ones who run).

I'd say, if this goes through, doing a runner will be a lot less likely to succeed. And begin a general fuckwit on the road a lot more likely to get the fuckwit pulled over.

Which is all good by me. I never had much problem with the snakes (well, I *did*, but even then I knew it was my own fault).

I wonder if we could persuade the new force to make bike time compulsory , as it was with the MoT ? *THAT* would be a big win.

The real bummer is that they've lost 20 years worth of good snakes, like Mr Giradin. It will take time to rebuild. And as the pay will probably be lower, I can't see many existing cops transferring over.

pritch

10th December 2009, 11:56

Back to the future...

TOs may have had a narrower range of the law with which they had to be familiar but they had a higher degree of expertise in that area than the average PC. The TOs generally made all their decisions at the roadside. PCs often take it back to the station for discussion and approval.

The MOT were better organised in a lot of ways than the Police. The MOT had seven shifts, each of which had specific duties that went with it. The Police had just three shifts. In the days of 10.00PM closing the PCs were all back writing up their paperwork or getting ready to start work at the same time as all the drunks hit the road.

The TOs had the car at home so they were on the job as soon as they exited their driveway. Now they have to drive in to town and pick up a car and the reverse at night. They used to do all their paperwork in the car, after the merger in some instances they had to go back to the office and type it all up... All in all they are on the job a lot less than they used to be.

Of course all of this was told to me by a former MoT chief so he may have been a bit biased?

I had pause to think last night, as I did a very ummm marginal(?) stop at a stop sign that there are many more misdemeanors go unpunished since the merger. Previously there would have been a significant risk of a traffic car being parked nearby watching the corner for exactly such behaviour.

Pessimistic as it may be I feel the new arrangement may just combine the worst of both worlds...

Ixion

10th December 2009, 12:01

Back to the future...

..

I had pause to think last night, as I did a very ummm marginal(?) stop at a stop sign that there are many more misdemeanors go unpunished since the merger. Previously there would have been a significant risk of a traffic car being parked nearby watching the corner for exactly such behaviour.

Pessimistic as it may be I feel the new arrangement may just combine the worst of both worlds...

Yes. That is the sort of misdemeanor that the snakes used to be hot on. Nowadays the risk of being pinged for failure to stop at a stop sign, going through a red light , or similar, has become very small indeed.

Personally I think that " significant risk of a traffic car being parked nearby watching the corner for exactly such behaviour" would be a good thing. The snakes concentrated on *bad driving* more than *breaking the rules*. Hopefully the new force may adopt a similar attitude.

As you say, the MoT had a narrower focus, but a much better understanding of what they did focus on. So they know what was dangerous, not just what was breaking the rules. That's good by me.

roogazza

10th December 2009, 12:11

Police back before the training college in Papakowhai opened trained in Auckland somewhere, MOT trained in Trentham on a dedicated section of the Army base there, opposite the at the time GM factory

Close ! Police College was at Trentham,(an ex ww2 training camp) I graduated in 73 and was an instructor there from about 77 and then Papakowhai till 85.
Auckland did attempt breeding coppers briefly,when numbers were short. But I can only remember 1 or 2 wings passing out up there ???? Gaz.

dipshit

10th December 2009, 12:25

He failed to come up to the standards required in motor vehicle handling skills with MOT, Police took him in instantly, go figure that one out

And you are naive enough to think that didn't happen the other way around as well..???

By the sound of it this person knows what went on... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129561844&postcount=19

avgas

10th December 2009, 12:38

Where do I sign up.
fuck being an engineer - I want some fun.

oldrider

10th December 2009, 13:21

They already have dedicated traffic cops, but the problem is those are fully trained front line police officers, doing a very limited task.

I agree with Howard on using officially designated traffic officers.
Far less manoey needed to train them as opposed to full cops, free's cops up to bust P labs, and allows for a focussed traffic safety approach to road management as opposed to 'revenue collection by Police'

A great move forward (far from backwards) The closure of the dedicated road policing unit of MOT in 1990 was a huge mistake IMHO

I'm not so sure!

When an arrest is required, the "unwarranted traffic cops" will have to enlist a "warranted police officer" to carry out the arrest!

That will mean doubling or trebling the cost and manpower will be drawn away from (publicly perceived) real crime again!

There are a lot of traffic situations that now call for an arrest!

Suggested solution: Less conflicting or useless laws and more police, fewer lawyers and sort and weed out the poor performing judges!

pritch

10th December 2009, 14:42

As you say, the MoT had a narrower focus, but a much better understanding of what they did focus on. So they know what was dangerous, not just what was breaking the rules. That's good by me.

Absolutely! Good by me too. Unless of course I was temporarily discombobulated (thanks Shaun) for being at the centre of their attention.

Muppet

10th December 2009, 18:24

As usual the whole thing will be driven by money, they'll have a cunning plan, it'll cost millions. Some of you may think this is a good idea, but if you replace traffic cops with speed cameras, you'll have a situation like they do in the UK where you can't so much as fart on a bike without the Gummint knowing about it. Be careful what you wish for.......

Muppet

10th December 2009, 18:41

I'm not so sure!

When an arrest is required, the "unwarranted traffic cops" will have to enlist a "warranted police officer" to carry out the arrest!

That will mean doubling or trebling the cost and manpower will be drawn away from (publicly perceived) real crime again!

There are a lot of traffic situations that now call for an arrest!

Suggested solution: Less conflicting or useless laws and more police, fewer lawyers and sort and weed out the poor performing judges!

You're absolutely correct of course. Prior to the 1992 merger MoT officers stopped thousands of people a year for "warrants to arrest" but had to call police to arrest them assuming there was one free. And what happens when someone fails to stop for these unwarranted police? It may interest the younger crowd on here that for quite sometime MoT officers had no powers to arrest if a motorist refused to give their name and address, they just had to let them go and ascertain their details via car reg etc This proposal will result in more cocks ups and road deaths and injuries. What sort of person will they employ to do this job? Naturally they will be paid less because they have no power of arrest etc If you were stopped by them for speeding and you knew they couldn't bin you if you didn't tell them your particulars, would you? They'll be a laughing stock, a very backward step I think.

Pixie

10th December 2009, 18:57

That's quite logical. MoT focused on vehicle stuff, driving AND RIDING skills were critical.

The real bummer is that they've lost 20 years worth of good snakes, like Mr Girardin.

I'll say!
You had to have good skills when the management would not plump for good tyres and replace buggered shocks.
Lou could tell you of wobbling off the northwestern into the mudflats when his police CB750 got into a tankslapper.

kwaka_crasher

10th December 2009, 18:57

It may interest the younger crowd on here that for quite sometime MoT officers had no powers to arrest if a motorist refused to give their name and address, they just had to let them go and ascertain their details via car reg etc

The best bit was they couldn't pursue you onto private property. Ahhhh the glory days....

Ixion

10th December 2009, 19:00

I'll say!
You had to have good skills when the management would not plump for good tyres and replace buggered shocks.
Lou could tell you of wobbling off the northwestern into the mudflats when his police CB750 got into a tankslapper.

CB750 ? I thought they were all CB650s ? I had one of the ex police CB650 (after they pulled out of bikes completely). It was , ah, interesting to ride. Even for an early Jappa.

Motu

10th December 2009, 19:03

Bring on the jodhpurs!! Bring back the mustache and peaked cap.Something for prefects and bullies to aspire to.

Pixie

10th December 2009, 19:04

CB750 ? I thought they were all CB650s ? I had one of the ex police CB650 (after they pulled out of bikes completely). It was , ah, interesting to ride. Even for an early Jappa.

Lou had a Honda Police CB750 (the original Four) and later a Yamaha XJ 750 Police special.He stared copping?copulating? in 1977.

pritch

10th December 2009, 19:09

Bring on the jodhpurs!! Bring back the mustache and peaked cap.Something for prefects and bullies to aspire to.

Don't forget those bloody brown boots! I spotted a mufti cop bike in the Ngauranga Gorge once purely because nobody but a snake woulda been seen dead in those bloody things...

Pixie

10th December 2009, 19:11

Bring on the jodhpurs!! Bring back the mustache and peaked cap.Something for prefects and bullies to aspire to.

The jodhpurs were very functional they allowed extra room when you shit yourself.See post #33

oldrider

10th December 2009, 19:22

You're absolutely correct of course. Prior to the 1992 merger MoT officers stopped thousands of people a year for "warrants to arrest" but had to call police to arrest them assuming there was one free. And what happens when someone fails to stop for these unwarranted police? It may interest the younger crowd on here that for quite sometime MoT officers had no powers to arrest if a motorist refused to give their name and address, they just had to let them go and ascertain their details via car reg etc This proposal will result in more cocks ups and road deaths and injuries. What sort of person will they employ to do this job? Naturally they will be paid less because they have no power of arrest etc If you were stopped by them for speeding and you knew they couldn't bin you if you didn't tell them your particulars, would you? They'll be a laughing stock, a very backward step I think.

If they really try hard, they could revert to every City having their own municipal traffic cops again, boy that was a laugh!

It was like America, racing to get across the border out of their jurisdiction into the MOT area with whom they had no radio contact!

The most fun I ever had, it was like the Keystone Cops only in real life, MOT cops had no authority to chase you into Municipal areas!

Three different chases between Lower Hutt City, Petone MOT, Wellington City and then back again another way!

It was hilarious, I haven't thought about those days for a while, will have to stop before I wee myself!

Arnold Barr of Hutt City was the meanest little arsehole City traffic cop that lived back in those days, ask your granddads about him, he was well known!

Stupid expensive move going back to separate organisations for policing IMHO!

nighthawk

10th December 2009, 19:25

All this is just PC bullshit.
It’s about time people started demanding more from the courts.
If they started putting criminals away with proper sentences instead of letting them out that would free up a lot more time.

I could'nt agree more,but the general population of this fair land neither want to know about crime or criminal activities in their area or support stronger sentences until it affects them.

As far as Im concerned I've known many traffic and police staff both before and after the merger, most if not all did and still do their job to the best of their abillity and for the betterment of society in general, despite the general concensus that you read from time to time,that they(the police) made another mistake or picked on someone unfairly....

I can tell you from first hand experience you need to be a special type of person to put your life at risk on a daily basis dealing with society's more problematic individuals.....so others can lead a safer life....

Ocean1

10th December 2009, 19:47

Three different chases between Lower Hutt City, Petone MOT, Wellington City and then back again another way!

They eventually armed themselves with a couple of TS Suzukis, and then DT250s as I recall, so the fun continued up the firebreaks also.

Thems was the days ...

Motu

10th December 2009, 19:52

The jodhpurs were very functional they allowed extra room when you shit yourself.See post #33

Seen one do it - I got so far ahead I stopped at a red light and waited for him to catch up.When I finally decided to pull over for him he was visibly shaking and could hardly speak,I think he had totally shit himself trying to keep up with my little bike.He told me to keep my speed down.....I don't think he dared try to write a ticket with shaking hands.

Some were great guys and above average riders - most were just playground bullies looking for a uniform and badge to boost their below average self esteem.They have been around since the uniform was invented....counterbalanced by vacuous women who like a man in uniform.

Patrick

11th December 2009, 14:47

Of course what all of this means is probably more cops on the road, with proper police still being able to issue traffic infringements as well as traffic officers who are specifically issuing traffic tickets.

Business as usual, as it is now, then....?

Police back before the training college in Papakowhai opened trained in Auckland somewhere, MOT trained in Trentham on a dedicated section of the Army base there, opposite the at the time GM factory.....

Porirua opened in 1981, after moving from Trentham. MOT trained there til the merger in 1992. Dogs still train there at Trentham Barracks - old draughty places they are.......

Back to the future...

The MOT were better organised in a lot of ways than the Police. The MOT had seven shifts, each of which had specific duties that went with it. The Police had just three shifts. In the days of 10.00PM closing the PCs were all back writing up their paperwork or getting ready to start work at the same time as all the drunks hit the road.

Not how I recall it in the early - mid 80's..... Only a few MOT working in the dark night shifts, roads swarming with em during the day (in Auckland at least....).

The TOs had the car at home so they were on the job as soon as they exited their driveway. Now they have to drive in to town and pick up a car and the reverse at night.

After the cuts recently, even Highways have to share now - they used to have a car parked in their back yard for 2/3rds of the day.... Makes $$$ sense to have a car running 24/7 instead of three cars to cover the days lot....

They used to do all their paperwork in the car,

Still do - nothing new there...

after the merger in some instances they had to go back to the office and type it all up...

Type up a ticket? LOL.... but there is a lot more typing, and some of the old crustys still refuse to use a typist....

All in all they are on the job a lot less than they used to be.

Of course all of this was told to me by a former MoT chief so he may have been a bit biased?

I had pause to think last night, as I did a very ummm marginal(?) stop at a stop sign that there are many more misdemeanors go unpunished since the merger. Previously there would have been a significant risk of a traffic car being parked nearby watching the corner for exactly such behaviour.

Pessimistic as it may be I feel the new arrangement may just combine the worst of both worlds...

They've turned to giving out digital handicams to record these redlight runners and stop sign crashers now..... at least in these parts.....

SPman

11th December 2009, 15:54

They'll probably give them powers of arrest, if they do split them off again.
Same as they do to the Transit Guards or "Railway Police" over here in Perth.
Personally, I think a well trained traffic police engendered with keeping traffic moving and concentrating on stupid traffic behaviour is a good idea - but - we all know they will be in the thrall of land transport and their money handouts...so..nothing much will change except , perhaps, the heat will be taken of GD police.

(never thought I'd be saying bringing back dedicated traffic cops would be a good idea...)

If they really try hard, they could revert to every City having their own municipal traffic cops again, boy that was a laugh!
aaaah, those were the days....Mac Reid in the East Coast Bays......:laugh: