If there is a wish to make bikers to some political peoples right force it will fail.

[Conquiztador]

Lets be honest: Bikers were pissed off re the high increases in ACC levies. And that was it!

Then some individuals with higher aspirations started working on different agendas. But really, by then you had lost the average biker.

United we stood against the increases. "Fuck you Smitty". "Bullhit, bullshit, bullshit" was the cry.

And that is all there was. As soon as you started to dig deeper you realised that we all only agreed on one thing: The increases were too high.

- Some were OK with a small increase.
- Some wanted none
- Some wanted the ACC levies lowered
- Some wanted ACC to go back to the past where all paid same no matter what.
- Some wanted ACC to become privatised as it would make it more fair for the ones who had no accidents.
- Some wanted their group (bikers) to be treated fairly and pay what the real costs were and not Smittys BS ones.
- Some wanted ACC to be disbanded and Insurance companies to do the job.

And so on.

If I wanted to be politically active I would have done it many years ago. I hate the increases as much as the next man. And I liked that we had the ones who stood up for what we believed in: Proposed ACC increases were too high.

But for them to now tell the media that we are OK with what is proposed is their own opinion. Not mine. In this they do not speak for me.

BUT I have no interest in fighting for a ACC that is "fair". Fuck it. Only thing I wanted was a no increase.

And that was it.

(OK, so ACC got me involved as a result of using my money to advertise against me. That set me off. Before that I was thinking; "Who cares. Less idiots on the road. I can afford it")

I will do some "hard hit" protests against the higher ACC levies. But the political issues re all the other stuff is not what I am on about. I see politicians as people who could not get a real job, so we are doomed anyhow:
- The ones who run the country are the ones who did/could not succeed in the competetive world.
- And the ones who should be running the country would never do it because they are so much better off doing what they do now.

And really, why I am a biker is because I am antisocial and like the solitude.

FTW

[scissorhands]

aaawww i thought the revolution had arrived

[Ixion]

Mate, I understand what you are saying. And I'm sure others feel the same

But - we live in the real world.

And in that real world, we had an election a year ago. The National party won (this isn't a 'slag the Nats' thing ). One of the policies that they campaigned on was privatisng ACC (or "opening it to competition" which is a distinction subtle enough that we may ignore it)

They were very honest about it, no-one can claim they didn't know.

That's a reality.

Now, an absolute fundamental, is that ACC *cannot* be privatised until it is fully funded. Because , when it is privatised , there are going to be all these already injured people. Some of them will never work again. The government can't say "Want to buy an insurance company? But, oh, if you do, there's all these people, you'll have to pay them billions of dollars over the next 50 years or so". No insurance company would be stupid enough to buy that. And likewise, if ACC is privatised, the government can't keep collecting levies to pay out those existing people. So, no full funding, no privatisation.

That's a reality.

And so, Nick Smith was tasked to get ACC fully funded ASAP. And he in turn appointed John Judge to go do that.

And of course , the motorcycle account is totally not fully funded . It doesn't even pay its way year by year let alone fund for the future (note that I'm not saying it *should*, just that is the reality)

Mr Judge immediately sees that and tells Mr Smith "Those motorbikes have got to pay SHITLOADS more. Oh, and everyone else has to pay a lot more too". OK, says Mr Smith

Now , given all that what possible motive could Mr Judge , or Mr Smith have for giving us a zero increase ? Why on earth would they? That's not in the real world.

In the event , Mr Smith has had to retreat. He's had to go back to Mr Judge and say "John, sorry. These increases, they're just too unpopular, if I agreed to what you want , the government would be toast. I'll give you as much as I can, I'll reduce them JUST enough to make the public think everyone (including those bloody bikers) is getting a fair deal"

But no way would he reduce them any more than he has to. Why should he? It's not "love a cuddly biker to bits" year. Of course he's not going to give a zero increase. Not while his instructions are to get ACC ready for sale.

So, full funding means NO chance of a zero increase. If we want a zero increase the only option is to break that connection. No full funding means we are already paying more than is needed (overall)

That's reality. Just standing up and saying "Hey Nick, don't increase ACC levies at all, OK" was NEVER going to fly.

And if we are to avoid paying that $3700 , we need to fight to NOT have the scheme fully funded.

Which is what the "political" bit is about. And it's not going to happen any time soon. It was always going to be a long campaign. I said so from the start.But we have made a big breakthrough - today Mr Smith effectively admitted that he CANNOT push through levy increases enough to secure full funding. Which means we have secured the first step of our program.

Long story short - there is no way on God's earth that we would get a zero increase , now or in the future WITHOUT the "political" stuff. Just not in the real world.

[StoneY]

They were very honest about it, no-one can claim they didn't know.

That's a reality.



Wasn't my reality Les, and was NOT made clear to anyone I have ever spoken too, before or since the election

[Brian d marge]

Mate, I understand what you are saying. And I'm sure others feel the same

[snip]

Long story short - there is no way on God's earth that we would get a zero increase , now or in the future WITHOUT the "political" stuff. Just not in the real world.

I posted in the other thread , I am aware of what smithy is up to

but It would be a national disgrace , and a blight on the memories of the young lads that were injured fighting

They stood up when I needed them , now its my turn for them

ACC shall never become fully funded , if it does I will lose what little respect I already have for the KIWI political animal ( Student loans , anyone?)
So if anyone , from now says ,,,oh mustn't grumble. I can live with that

RIP INTO EM

Stephen


Wasn't my reality Les, and was NOT made clear to anyone I have ever spoken too, before or since the election

Sorry it was , it has always been national agenda, if I remember they said they would investigate adding competition into the ACC workers account of something like that

Its not just a labor National thing , its a business round-table thing ,,,follow the money ,,,

Stephen

Just say for interest sake , if we did open everything up , I wonder how soon after , the free trade with America starts happening ( or has it already.)


Lets be honest: Bikers were pissed off re the high increases in ACC levies. And that was it!

[snip]

And really, why I am a biker is because I am antisocial and like the solitude.

FTW

This is the point , " me is ok " ,,,but you and I cannot compete with the Real baskets , the ones making the big money ,,,,at the expense of ,,,well you name it , environment , workers safety , ,,,,

No, at the moment it doesn't effect me, you , but one day , it might

friend of mine , races enfields in the states , good job , house etc ,,,

coming home from work, POW , helicopter ride, hospital , lucky too survive etc

HAS LOST EVERYTHING,,, all gone, bike , house , everything ,,, I think the helicopter ride alone was 22000 us

ACC is a godsend. so,,

Since 1980 the world has change, now more than ever as a group we need to act even IF we disagree on minor issues ,,, ( I cant understand why people ride Harley's when Royal Enfield are the business!!)

I understand ,,,about how you may feel about the political side ,,,a lot of peoople feel the same way ,,,,, but this is why we have , SOE ,CHEs and Sky high food prices

Stephen

[MacD]

Mate, I understand what you are saying. And I'm sure others feel the same

But - we live in the real world.

And in that real world, we had an election a year ago. The National party won (this isn't a 'slag the Nats' thing ). One of the policies that they campaigned on was privatisng ACC (or "opening it to competition" which is a distinction subtle enough that we may ignore it)

They were very honest about it, no-one can claim they didn't know.

That's a reality.



Great summary Ixion.

Everybody was so fixated on the "nanny state" spin at the last election that they ignored National's stated manifesto. Privatising ACC has been and is their ultimate policy for years. It is clearly driven by the Business Round Table who has been openly campaigning for this for over a decade. It is no accident that John Judge is a BRT "alumnus" member and was appointed by Nick Smith as soon as possible after the election.

Even the 125/600cc categories, which every industry and group submission I read (including the AA submission) argued made no sense in a no fault system, has been adopted simply because it matches the operations of the Australian private insurance systems.

This is a long game.

[wingrider]

Sorry it was , it has always been national agenda, if I remember they said they would investigate adding competition into the ACC workers account of something like that

Its not just a labor National thing , its a business round-table thing ,,,follow the money ,,,

Stephen

Just say for interest sake , if we did open everything up , I wonder how soon after , the free trade with America starts happening ( or has it already.)

Yep, thats what I remember as well.

Look back at the last 3-4 national governements and look no further than the front bench. All were business round table associates. Every time a change was made to ACC it was driven by pressure from the employers federation and BRT. CHANGES FOR PROFIT FOR A FEW.

Changes made by Labour were driven by 3rd party minorities WHOS VOTING POWER LABOUR COULDN'T AFFORD TO LOOSE. Trouble was most of the changes were to the benefit of civil liberterians for the benefit of a few.

Now we have national in the same boat, relying on ACT and the Maori party vote. Thats why we have all these deals going on that sell out the average person to line the pockets of a few.

ITS A PROPOGANDER WAR.

2nd page of the Dom-Post today, Headline Acc levy's may need to rise aqain, Sub heading, car owners reduce bikers burden.

Its a statement designed to divide. There's no truth in it, there's no fact behind it. It's purely designed as a them against us attitude.
iF I SUBMIT A REBUTLE WILL IT GET PUBLISHED?
Has anyone noticed that in the past two weeks, letters to the editor sections of most dailies carry nothing in the way of replies where reference to data or fact is mentioned? Haven't seen a mention of reference to Smith or Judge. Only two line responses sayin how me the biker is pissed off gets published, and the next day 20 reply's tellin us how because of our actions we should be payin more. AND YES WE DO NEED TO CLEAN UP OUR ACT.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER FROM WITHIN.

WHO'S NEXT?

We need to change our banner to add a big finger pointing at everyone we see saying " you were, and ya just got shafted".

If we are to see a return to the original Woodhouse Principles we need to get the majority of the average joe blogs on side with us. Not as bikers, but as everyday people scraping to make ends meet. Sure lets wear our leathers but only because its part of who we are. And I think as bikers we deserve the recognition that it was us who stood up and fought.

We need the big unions on our side, going back to their members showing them how they just got shafted.

Lets get 20,000+ at the next protest, from all walks of life, demanding that THEY RETURN ACC TO THE BASICS OF WHAT WAS THE BEST SYSTEM FOR ALL.
A no fault- no blame system that benefits anyone who suffers an injury and acceptance that everyone will in some way subsidise someone else.
A common sense attitude that if you are injured commiting a criminal activity you get nothing.

If this is the real world.....then lets get real.

Rant over.

And Stoney, yes i'm in.

[Waxxa]

On the news this morning the Green Party wants to have a full investigation into ACC and wants to see it funded on a yearly basis...does this have merit for us to push?

I'm still not happy with the increase at all but we have scored a minor victory and gained ground. Do we have the mettle to carry this on to the next step? Fair, equatible ACC levy for all road users?

[MSTRS]

....
iF I SUBMIT A REBUTLE WILL IT GET PUBLISHED?
....

No. <gjgjgjgkjg>

[MSTRS]

On the news this morning the Green Party wants to have a full investigation into ACC and wants to see it funded on a yearly basis...does this have merit for us to push?

Aligning with Labour is one thing...but the Greens? *shudder*


Do we have the mettle to carry this on to the next step? Fair, equatible ACC levy for all road users?Many of us do. But we are hamstrung by lack of resources. And infighting.
But I won't be giving up.

[Ender EnZed]

Wasn't my reality Les, and was NOT made clear to anyone I have ever spoken too, before or since the election

It was said; but drowned out by people yelling at anyone not screaming abuse at Sue Bradford. I'd call it very blurry.

[Brian d marge]

WHO'S NEXT?

We need to change our banner to add a big finger pointing at everyone we see saying " you were, and ya just got shafted".
.

I like that

So BRONZ members you need to inform your spokesman of you intended next step

Those who are not BRONZ or Ulysses ( plural of Ulysses Ulyssi?)

Join up

Stephen

[glegge]

a few quotes from the ACC announcment video, some which show the drivers for the government (right or wrong)..
(PS - i'm not supporting him, but again, it's a view into his drivers, and where we can attack him best..

the main one first..
3 problems with pay as you go for ACC:

1 effectively passing on to future generate the cost of todays accidents.
2 dont provide price signals around saftey to employers as not paying full cost of accidents today.
3 enables ministers to promise extras to ACC but not have to fund it for 10 to 20 years.
4 IMPORTANT. with the introduction of international accounting reporting standards, if acc was not fully funded, those liabilities would still have to be reported on the crown accounts, and would have a substantive effect on the overall financial status of the government, effecting such things as interest rates and the like. so there are no easy options. pay as you go is a cop out, i think it's fair that in any one year, we pay for the accidents in that year.
listen/watch here http://www.3news.co.nz/ACC-levy-hike-officially-announced-/tabid/370/articleID/133569/cat/67/Default.aspx from 20:19

[swbarnett]

if acc was not fully funded, those liabilities would still have to be reported on the crown accounts
My responce to this would be to ask why the education liability doesn't have to be accounted for in the same way? After all, for every five year old the government is liable for another ten years of schooling. Why is this liability accounted for year by year and ACC is not?

[MSTRS]

My responce to this would be to ask why the education liability doesn't have to be accounted for in the same way? After all, for every five year old the government is liable for another ten years of schooling. Why is this liability accounted for year by year and ACC is not?

What has common sense got to do with this? FFS - this is the govt we are talking about.

[Pussy]

It was said; but drowned out by people yelling at anyone not screaming abuse at Sue Bradford. I'd call it very blurry.

Yes it was.
Typical political "mirrors and strings"

[swbarnett]

What has common sense got to do with this? FFS - this is the govt we are talking about.
Indeed. Politics is all about what you can get away with.