Making excuses (pt II)

[Katman]

While we continue to blame environmental circumstances for our accidents we will continue to be seen as a joke by the powers that be and by the general public.

[boomer]

While we continue to blame environmental circumstances for our accidents we will continue to be seen as a joke by the powers that be and by the general public.


So General Public and the power rangers know you well huh !

Merry xmas joke'r :wanka:

[Pussy]

Just had an idiot on a Tiger bloody near collect my ute... using a merge lane for passing.
So, owner of 37 ZUH... you are lucky a motorcyclist was driving the ute, and anticipated what you were doing.

[Mully]

Just had an idiot on a Tiger bloody near collect my ute... using a merge lane for passing.

Was it this guy??

[boomer]

Was it this guy??


thats Raj, he's a tad south aint he !

[Katman]

Merry xmas joke'r :wanka:

Cheers :homo:

[jrandom]

Motorcycles are just nature's way of selecting for self-control and intelligence.

It's not a perfect selection mechanism; some bins are survivable, and obviously a lot of motorcyclists do manage to breed before taking themselves out, but on the whole it seems to work OK.

:sunny:

[Foxzee]

and obviously a lot of motorcyclists do manage to breed before taking themselves out
:sunny:

But there are sum that just shouldn't!!!!!...:rolleyes: lol

[davebullet]

Was it this guy??

I think it looked more like man-bear-pig. He's half man, half bear and half pig.

[Virago]

While we continue to blame environmental circumstances for our accidents we will continue to be seen as a joke by the powers that be and by the general public.

It's a shame that you are unable to see that you're own one-eyed and obsessive approach is as unbalanced as the lunatic fringe that you condemn.

The reality is that the environment is often a major factor in accidents. Even the "powers that be" recognise that.

Your gleeful dancing on the dead bodies of accident victims in support of your bludgeoning crusade, is crass and insensitive to both the victims and their grieving loved ones.

As always, you reject the notion of "time and place", and continue your on-line tirades, in the faces of those grieving and shocked people.

Business as usual, eh...?

[Katman]

It's a shame that you are unable to see that you're own one-eyed and obsessive approach is as unbalanced as the lunatic fringe that you condemn.

The reality is that the environment is often a major factor in accidents. Even the "powers that be" recognise that.

Your gleeful dancing on the dead bodies of accident victims in support of your bludgeoning crusade, is crass and insensitive to both the victims and their grieving loved ones.

As always, you reject the notion of "time and place", and continue your on-line tirades, in the faces of those grieving and shocked people.

Business as usual, eh...?

Cry me a river.

[Virago]

Cry me a river.

I rest my case.

[awayatc]

I think it looked more like man-bear-pig. He's half man, half bear and half pig.


That's 3 halves.........?

[merv]

I made previous comments in the Grays Road thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=114594 which I will kind of repeat here.

Every time someone calls for road improvements to eliminate these "environmental factors" I lament the loss of what I enjoyed about driving or riding and that is the interesting roads we used to be able to travel over.

Do those that call for these improvements really want our roads to all be multi-laned motorways so that all the interest of the journey is lost?

Does it really improve safety or just increase the speeds at which crashes happen?

[Squiggles]

Perhaps off on a slight tangent...

I'd like to see, rather than bitching here about it, people ringing up the councils and lodging complaints / action requests to have bad roading conditions fixed...

The number below is for the Auckland City Council region in response to a query from their stakeholders group... I've found them pretty damn quick to get out there and sort it out

Please see the response below to the action from the minutes - "Road construction & Repairs - Current practises that are a problem for motorcyclists (e.g. Pea gravel, Metal blanking plates - Utility companies putting metal blanking plates on these are a safety concern as if they are down for a period of time they start to move and become dangerous when on a motorcycle. What are the standards they are to adhere to who checks?"

The Code of Practice for Working in the Road, Part 6.4.2.11 requires the following (edited out). Whilst we endeavour to audit as many sites as possible, resources do not allow us to do so. Can I suggest that any sites that are of concern are reported via the Call Centre phone 379 2020 request for service process and given a "Critical" priority. We will audit within 4 working hours.

[Katman]

I'd like to see, rather than bitching here about it, people ringing up the councils and lodging complaints / action requests to have bad roading conditions fixed...



Personally, I'd rather see motorcyclists pulling their fucking heads in and riding to the conditions.

[h211]

Personally, I'd rather see motorcyclists pulling their fucking heads in and riding to the conditions.

If only we could predict huge fuckoff potholes in the road. And no, tailgating or speed were not factors...

[Chrislost]

While we continue to blame environmental circumstances for our accidents we will continue to be seen as a joke by the powers that be and by the general public.

But But but.
kayman told me that if i rode like a pussy id be safe

[Katman]

If only we could forsee huge fuckoff potholes in the road.

Are you saying you're incapable of that?

[Foxzee]

Hey guys and girls.....

As it has been said "accidents happen"...and some are just pure accidents..no fault, no blame, no stupid riding, no stupid other conditions that put us at risk.....

I've lost a few very close mates to "accidents"..and as it was stated in the Coronors court "this is a court of no blame"...those words are so true, it's a medium to attempt to stop other's going the same way as we can't bring back our loved ones but can seek solice in what maybe can been done to prevent this death happening to someone else's loved one, child or best mate.

[Kickaha]

Hey guys and girls.....
As it has been said "accidents happen"...and some are just pure accidents..no fault, no blame, no stupid riding, no stupid other conditions that put us at risk.....


"accidents happen" sounds like to much of a cop out to me

[Donor]

The reality is that the environment is often a major factor in accidents. Even the "powers that be" recognise that.

See, in my view that's a great part of the problem, and one of Katmans' greatest points - all too often when shit happens, we (and I'm saying both motorcycle riders AND car drivers) look to apportion blame to "the environment" when in simple fact, the majority of motorcycle accidents can be avoided by rider awareness of their abilities, their machines abilities and the environs that they ride in.

I used to be a huge critic of Katman, however when I stopped taking the apparent sleights and insults (as so many seem to take them) so personally, then I had to admit to myself, the bastard makes a lot of sense.

But hey, this is purely my own opinion.

[Katman]

I've lost a few very close mates to "accidents"..and as it was stated in the Coronors court "this is a court of no blame"...those words are so true, it's a medium to attempt to stop other's going the same way as we can't bring back our loved ones but can seek solice in what maybe can been done to prevent this death happening to someone else's loved one, child or best mate.

Seeking solace is bullshit.

Seeking education will save lives.

[T.W.R]

Seeking solace is bullshit.

Seeking education will save lives.

Biggoted arrogance is in the same league too

[Katman]

Biggoted arrogance is in the same league too

As is burying your head in the sand.

[Donor]

Biggoted arrogance is in the same league too

How so?

Giving a shit?

Being cruel to be kind? After all, the truth is the cruellest of all...

None so blind as those that will not see...

[Ronin]

How so?

Giving a shit?

Being cruel to be kind? After all, the truth is the cruellest of all...

None so blind as those that will not see...

The problem is not the message, no one will say that katman doesn't have some valid points. There is however better ways of delivering said message.

Better and more appropriate places too.

[Donor]

The problem is not the message, no one will say that katman doesn't have some valid points. There is however better ways of delivering said message.

Better and more appropriate places too.

Okay, so let's be constructive here - what would be a better way of conveying the message?

What would be the most appropriate place?

We all know many riders, and chances are many of us know a few or more that have wound up dead. Sorry for the blunt talk, it's my upbringing.

Are we so PC that we can't talk about these things without fear of upsetting people, or is it that we as motorcycle riders can't bring ourselves to drop the "bulletproof" mentality that so many of us have adopted?

[klingon]

Seeking solace is bullshit.

Actually, some people need to seek solace to come to terms with a tragedy that has befallen them, through no fault of their own.

I'm not talking about someone who dies as the result of a crash, but the people who are left behind to suffer the grief. Seeking solace may be bullshit to you, but it is an important part of grieving for others.

It is not up to you to dictate what form the grief of others should or shouldn't take.


Seeking education will save lives.

I agree. But that is a completely different thing to seeking solace, and they are not mutually exclusive.

[Katman]

It is not up to you to dictate what form the grief of others should or shouldn't take.



I'm not attempting to dictate anything.

(The mods seem to be intent on dictating their own manner of thinking though).

I'm attempting to encourage all motorcyclists to take a good hard look at what that contribute (or not) to Motorcycling.

[Foxzee]

"accidents happen" sounds like to much of a cop out to me

Cop out...cop out of what? Have you never had an "accident" in your life or if you do you always have an explaination or an avenue of blame to direct the cause of that accident to.....

[Ronin]

Okay, so let's be constructive here - what would be a better way of conveying the message?

Attacking the very group your trying to save does not seem to me to be the best way because at the moment, the message is lost in what seems to be frustrated rants. If your audience wont listen then find a way to get through to them, don't condemn them for not having the same way of communicating that you do.


What would be the most appropriate place?

Anywhere that doesn't have a grieving widow/family in it.


We all know many riders, and chances are many of us know a few or more that have wound up dead. Sorry for the blunt talk, it's my upbringing.

Are we so PC that we can't talk about these things without fear of upsetting people, or is it that we as motorcycle riders can't bring ourselves to drop the "bulletproof" mentality that so many of us have adopted?

There is a world of difference between 'blunt' and 'arrogant'. We all as riders know that there are people that shouldn't be or won't be for long. Not all bikers are fuckwit road hoons or rossi wannabe's and object to being lumped with them.

You are correct, being to PC has killed a lot of people. All I'm suggesting is that perhaps there is a middle ground that will encourage more people to listen?

[Foxzee]

Personally, I'd rather see motorcyclists pulling their fucking heads in and riding to the conditions.

So cancel all race meetings then......hell a cloud may come over and shadow a perfectly good corner within 2 seconds.......

[PrincessBandit]

The outcome of the accident seems to have a huge influence on people's opinions on here.

My accident was relatively high speed, I survived with minimal injuries (although bad enough in their own way) - no one gave me shit about it when it happened and I can say, without saying too much, Katman treated me no differently than he would any other on here. His point is nothing personal, even extending to members of his own family.

I have no issue with that, and feel that his point was entirely justifiable.

As soon as there is death though people's emotions obviously go into overdrive in response to statements, which in themselves are not incorrect.

As for the posts being moved to PD they were not personal insults to the person/people involved - yes I did go in there to read them.

[Katman]

So cancel all race meetings then......

Sorry, but that retarded contribution to the thread doesn't warrant a reply.

[PrincessBandit]

So cancel all race meetings then......hell a cloud may come over and shadow a perfectly good corner within 2 seconds.......

At least on a race track all those who are on it know the score and are there to specifically ride in a way that is not generally accessible to them on the public road.

[Foxzee]

Sorry, but that retarded contribution to the thread doesn't warrant a reply.

So as a retard I can no longer make a point on this thread Katman????

You did not answer the question should we can anything dangerous as a cloud...cold track...etc...these people are still motorcyclists and experienced people..who give a lot of us education in riding and can still lose their lives.....if you could be useful and give your idea's on what education you would like to see maybe this can be a reality....

[Donor]

Attacking the very group your trying to save does not seem to me to be the best way because at the moment, the message is lost in what seems to be frustrated rants. If your audience wont listen then find a way to get through to them, don't condemn them for not having the same way of communicating that you do.

Attacking? So the public service ads about drink driving, speed, watching out for cyclists, children and small kittens are a bloody waste of time - and those who want more awareness of motorcyclists broadcast to the car drivers, are clearly wanting our tax dollars burned for no good reason.


Anywhere that doesn't have a grieving widow/family in it.

Any time someone dies - there's going to be somebody affected - granted, the timing of the messages regarding motorcycle riding and safety could be better timed on this site, it will and must never end - to allow that would be irresponsible of those who A) give a shit and B) have to pick up the pieces.


There is a world of difference between 'blunt' and 'arrogant'. We all as riders know that there are people that shouldn't be or won't be for long. Not all bikers are fuckwit road hoons or rossi wannabe's and object to being lumped with them.

You are correct, being to PC has killed a lot of people. All I'm suggesting is that perhaps there is a middle ground that will encourage more people to listen?[/QUOTE]

There is no middle ground - and alas there never will be, because let's face it (and working under the assumption 99% of motorcycle deaths/injuries are male) we're just so bloody bulletproof, we don't need to accept our mortality.

[Katman]

You did not answer the question should we can anything dangerous as a cloud...cold track...etc...

Since when has a cloud or a cold track been dangerous to those who anticipate (and react adequately to) those very circumstances and possibilities?

[bogan]

While we continue to blame environmental circumstances for our accidents we will continue to be seen as a joke by the powers that be and by the general public.

whats wrong with blaming environmental circumstances? sometimes they are to blame! general public blames environmental factors for their accidents so I'm sure we wont be judged too harshly.

Is it a good idea be prepared for, and able to avoid incidents when encountering such circumstances? yes imo we should

Do we have the right to dictate how others ride? course not, far better we educate them to the consequences instead, so they are able to decide for themselves

[Foxzee]

Since when has a cloud or a cold track been dangerous to those who anticipate (and react adequately to) those very circumstances and possibilities?

So a road you now don't have those very circumstances????

[Katman]

whats wrong with blaming environmental circumstances? sometimes they are to blame!

Bullshit.

An individual's failure to factor in environmental circumstances is what is to blame.

[cowboyz]

So a road you now don't have those very circumstances????

you do realise that you are making yourself seem argumentative and just plain stupid. Im surprised Hitcher hasnt been past with a grammar check too.

In any case, I have to agree with Katman. In the theory anyhow. As far as the practicial side goes, I say.. Do what you want to do.

[bogan]

Bullshit.

An individual's failure to factor in environmental circumstances is what is to blame.

blame isnt as clear cut as that, who's fault is it when a biker gets knocked hit by a car going straight through a give way sign? (biker has right of way)

[cowboyz]

ok. being as we are asking random questions..

Whos fault is it when a bike is travelling round a 65k country road corner at 140k/hr and hits gravel midcorner and crashes?

[Katman]

ok. being as we are asking random questions..

Whos fault is it when a bike is travelling round a 65k country road corner at 140k/hr and hits gravel midcorner and crashes?

Ummm, the tyres?

[bogan]

ok. being as we are asking random questions..

Whos fault is it when a bike is travelling round a 65k country road corner at 140k/hr and hits gravel midcorner and crashes?

approx 90% rider fault, 10% to whoever left the gravel there (assuming its not a gravel road)

[Pussy]

Another way of looking at things....

If I hit a tree or a set of high tension lines in the course of my work, it's NOT the fault of the person who planted the tree, or the persons who erected the wires/pylons... it's MY bloody fault for not being aware/vigilant enough!
It's personal responsibility, FFS!

[T.W.R]

How so?

Giving a shit?

Being cruel to be kind? After all, the truth is the cruellest of all...

None so blind as those that will not see...

It's Skatmans self righteous arrogance of expressing his message inappropriately in places it isn't needed


As is burying your head in the sand.

So is having your head buried up your ass

[bogan]

Another way of looking at things....

If I hit a tree or a set of high tension lines in the course of my work, it's NOT the fault of the person who planted the tree, or the persons who erected the wires/pylons... it's MY bloody fault for not being aware/vigilant enough!
It's personal responsibility, FFS!

but if some numpty drops a rock off a bridge, leaves Z nails on the road, puts deisle down to do skids, who's fault is it?

I agree with you about the personal responsibility, but fault is a different thing

[James Deuce]

but if some numpty drops a rock off a bridge, leaves Z nails on the road, puts deisle down to do skids, who's fault is it?

I agree with you about the personal responsibility, but fault is a different thing

Mine for not seeing the twats on the bridge above, mine for not noticing the colour and texture change on the road, and mine for not seeing and smelling the diesel.

Mine.

[Foxzee]

you do realise that you are making yourself seem argumentative and just plain stupid. Im surprised Hitcher hasnt been past with a grammar check too.

In any case, I have to agree with Katman. In the theory anyhow. As far as the practicial side goes, I say.. Do what you want to do.

Ok so now I'm an argumentive retard that is stupid.......

What I'm drawing from this is Katman wants "rider awareness and safety" isn't that what we all want. I for one want's this but no one can tell me any constructive ways to make this a reality on the track and on the road without talking in circles and attacks on one another...I have a interest in what is going on here........

Hitcher anytime please bring on my personal spell and grammer check....

[cowboyz]

approx 90% rider fault, 10% to whoever left the gravel there (assuming its not a gravel road)

intreging.... what if the bike was going round a 65k corner at 140k and run into the back of a car that was doing 50k round the same corner? Going to put 10% of blame on the car for not going fast enough?

[Katman]

It's Skatmans self righteous arrogance of expressing his message inappropriately in places it isn't needed


Quite frankly, I think it's the very place (and time) that it's most needed.

When the pain is the rawest is when the most can be learnt from it.

Those who continue to venerate those who die on a motorcycle through that person's lack of common sense and forethought, cheapen the gift that Motorcycling has to offer us.

[bogan]

Mine for not seeing the twats on the bridge above, mine for not noticing the colour and texture change on the road, and mine for not seeing and smelling the diesel.

Mine.

hmmm, well we shall have to agree to disagree there


intreging.... what if the bike was going round a 65k corner at 140k and run into the back of a car that was doing 50k round the same corner? Going to put 10% of blame on the car for not going fast enough?

nah, speed differential is big, but would still mean the biker would be able to see the car entering the corner, and thus should slow speed to avoid the collision

[Bren]

While we continue to blame environmental circumstances for our accidents we will continue to be seen as a joke by the powers that be and by the general public.
And what, cage drivers dont blame everything else...They seldom see themselves to blame...
An Accident though is just that...Accidental!!!


I rest my case.
No suprises there...some people have got no idea of whats couth


Personally, I'd rather see motorcyclists pulling their fucking heads in and riding to the conditions.
Guess what...most of us do...its that percentile factor that you cannot change...the 5% that are just plain dickheads...Take any section of society and you will see the same thing...a few dickheads giving others a bad rap!


Hey guys and girls.....

As it has been said "accidents happen"...and some are just pure accidents..no fault, no blame, no stupid riding, no stupid other conditions that put us at risk.....

Too true, they do happen, and you will never totally stop them...chaos theory in progress


Bullshit.

An individual's failure to factor in environmental circumstances is what is to blame.
Not everyone has a supercomputer in their head like you do....We cannot factor everything in, all we can do is ride to the best of our abilities out there, and anticipate what we can...

It must be nice knowing that you ride so perfectly you will never have an accident. I guess you dont need to wear leathers or a helmet???

[cowboyz]

Ok so now I'm an argumentive retard that is stupid.......

What I'm drawing from this is Katman wants "rider awareness and safety" isn't that what we all want. I for one want's this but no one can tell me any constructive ways to make this a reality on the track and on the road without talking in circles and attacks on one another...I have a interest in what is going on here........

Hitcher anytime please bring on my personal spell and grammer check....

to start with.. ignore the track. track riding teaches you how to ride on the track. nothing more, nothing less.
I worry when people say... I went to this trackday and learnt how my bike handles on this hairpin and I was going really good and. .. (whatever).
No consideration for the fact that the rider had 20 attempts at the same *cambered* corner on a track that is equivelent to a 5 lane road with no hazzards.
In the real world. Road riding is completely different. The corners are not setup for racing and you dont get to practice the same corners over and over again. Alot more attention to reading the road and hazzard identification would serve alot of riders well. That and banning the sale of Gixxers as they seem to be crashing alot.

[Katman]

Not everyone has a supercomputer in their head like you do....

Bullshit. Everyone's brain is a supercomputer. It's just that far too many people are too fucking lazy to learn how to use it.

[Usarka]

Bullshit. Everyone's brain is a supercomputer. It's just that far too many people are too fucking lazy to learn how to use it.

Even supercomputers crash.

[Katman]

Even supercomputers crash.

Only through faulty input.

[Bren]

Bullshit. Everyone's brain is a supercomputer. It's just that far too many people are too fucking lazy to learn how to use it.

I am so glad that you are so superior to us then....:Pokey:

[Katman]

I am so glad that you are so superior to us then....:Pokey:

Fair enough, if you're happy to consider yourself inferior............

[dipshit]

Just had an idiot on a Tiger bloody near collect my ute... using a merge lane for passing.

It's a said fact, that whenever i see a motorcyclist on the road, i treat them with extra caution as there seems to be a higher probability than most of the other road users that they will do something dumb.

[Foxzee]

to start with.. ignore the track. track riding teaches you how to ride on the track. nothing more, nothing less.
I worry when people say... I went to this trackday and learnt how my bike handles on this hairpin and I was going really good and. .. (whatever).
No consideration for the fact that the rider had 20 attempts at the same *cambered* corner on a track that is equivelent to a 5 lane road with no hazzards.
In the real world. Road riding is completely different. The corners are not setup for racing and you dont get to practice the same corners over and over again. Alot more attention to reading the road and hazzard identification would serve alot of riders well. That and banning the sale of Gixxers as they seem to be crashing alot.

Why ignore the track...13 yr old riders out there doing...70 year old riders are out there doing it and I must say there are more hazards on the track that require rider awareness....Road riding more hazards again....The racers I know that are road riders are pretty proficient at both... Trackdays are different I agee there...still noone (Hitcher grammer) has answered my question....ideas, thought,suggestions to make rider training happen.....

[cowboyz]

nah, speed differential is big, but would still mean the biker would be able to see the car entering the corner, and thus should slow speed to avoid the collision

oh right.. so what your saying is that this wouldnt be an accident because the bike should be able to see the car so the only possibly explanation for this is that the bike hits the car on purpose and therefore this wouldnt be classed as an accident. Do you think that the rider would still be eligable for ACC?


And what, cage drivers dont blame everything else...They seldom see themselves to blame...
An Accident though is just that...Accidental!!!

awesome argument there! Noone else takes responibility so neither should I!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It must be nice knowing that you ride so perfectly you will never have an accident. I guess you dont need to wear leathers or a helmet???

dont miss the point. I am full of confidence when I ride. I have been doing it for a long time. However I do ride in full leathers, boots and gloves as well as a full faced helmet. I also have full comprehensive insurance on my bike.

Not because I think aliens will knock me off my bike at any point in time.. Its because I know I am human and one day, someday, I *might* make a mistake I cant recover from. If that day happens I want to make sure I come off it in the best condition I can. I dont feel the need to go seeking blame. I know that if I dont make it home it will be because I pushed too hard when I shouldnt have. I am willing to take responsibility for that.

[dipshit]

Are we so PC that we can't talk about these things without fear of upsetting people, or is it that we as motorcycle riders can't bring ourselves to drop the "bulletproof" mentality that so many of us have adopted?

I always find it ironic that "big tough motorcyclists" start crying like a bunch of five year old girls because someone said something unpleasant.

[cowboyz]

Why ignore the track...13 yr old riders out there doing...70 year old riders are out there doing it and I must say there are more hazards on the track that require rider awareness....Road riding more hazards again....The racers I know that are road riders are pretty proficient at both... Trackdays are different I agee there...still noone (Hitcher grammer) has answered my question....ideas, thought,suggestions to make rider training happen.....

please explain? You totally lost me with that one?????????

[bogan]

oh right.. so what your saying is that this wouldnt be an accident because the bike should be able to see the car so the only possibly explanation for this is that the bike hits the car on purpose and therefore this wouldnt be classed as an accident. Do you think that the rider would still be eligable for ACC?

no, I'm saying that in this case if a collision were to occur, the rider would be primarily at fault, its still and accident. Well he wouldnt be elligible if nick had his way, but yeh, he should get ACC.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for riders taking more responsibility in possible hazard identification/avoidance, but I dont think saying that every accident is the riders fault is a good idea. In 99% of accidents the rider could have taken steps to avoid it, ie "Accidents can be avoided on a motorcycle, you just have to try harder than other motorists" is a better message (imo) than "All your accidents are your own fault, tow the line and do something about it"

[Foxzee]

please explain? You totally lost me with that one?????????

Speed because there is no limit........

I'm still waiting for ideas to make our game a happy and safer one......

[Katman]

I'm still waiting for ideas to make our game a happy and safer one......

Believe me, it's not a game.

[T.W.R]

Quite frankly, I think it's the very place (and time) that it's most needed.

When the pain is the rawest is when the most can be learnt from it.

Those who continue to venerate those who die on a motorcycle through that person's lack of common sense and forethought, cheapen the gift that Motorcycling has to offer us.

You're a self imposed prophet of motorcycling aren't you :clap:

bounding into threads of peoples accidents especially like todays effort when it was of the death of a KB member, picking a comment about what was a major contributing factor and a recognised fault with that piece of road without even knowing anything about the area was a total :tugger: , totally inconsiderate to the people involved and disrespectful. wonder why it ended up in PD? because of your arrogance.

A few things you say are true but your manner, forethought and approach are like steam rising of a fresh turd...... you're a KB version of Brian Tamaki

There are plenty here that in the real world were motorcycling actually happens that are most likely more situationally aware than you and when some pick holes in your arguements you scorn them. No one is perfect and everyone rides their own ride and I guarantee if you were put under the microscope you'd have plenty of holes in your holier than thou bubble too :msn-wink:

[Nasty]

While we continue to blame environmental circumstances for our accidents we will continue to be seen as a joke by the powers that be and by the general public.

There has been no discussion on environment from those involved - so who is blaming that ... with Grubs - he was to blame .. he was the only one involved and he had the accident ... read the coroners report - I posted it for all to see. In this ACCIDENT - there is no information - so why you picking on something you KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. Some people mentioned a bridge, some the wind and some again mentioned that there may have been various things going on ... but taking something up in the thread that the widow had posted in and was following was not only insensitive (which you are known to be) ... but ignorant - I have to thank god you didn't do this with me re Grub.



It's a shame that you are unable to see that you're own one-eyed and obsessive approach is as unbalanced as the lunatic fringe that you condemn.

The reality is that the environment is often a major factor in accidents. Even the "powers that be" recognise that.

Your gleeful dancing on the dead bodies of accident victims in support of your bludgeoning crusade, is crass and insensitive to both the victims and their grieving loved ones.

As always, you reject the notion of "time and place", and continue your on-line tirades, in the faces of those grieving and shocked people.

Business as usual, eh...?

Always ... I have no problem with these threads - away from where the widow is going to read - I have an issue with the fact that this delivery just as normal sux.


Cry me a river.

I would .. but you don't seem worth it really ....


Hey guys and girls.....

As it has been said "accidents happen"...and some are just pure accidents..no fault, no blame, no stupid riding, no stupid other conditions that put us at risk.....

I've lost a few very close mates to "accidents"..and as it was stated in the Coronors court "this is a court of no blame"...those words are so true, it's a medium to attempt to stop other's going the same way as we can't bring back our loved ones but can seek solice in what maybe can been done to prevent this death happening to someone else's loved one, child or best mate.

I agree at times accidents happen - and they happen to good people, who ride well and know the risks of riding. Everytime I walk out the door of my home I pray that no accident comes by my path as that is just as dangerous .. and deadly.

The coroners counrt plays an awesome role ... they can't do anything, can not enforce anything - and make recommendations in hope they are taken on board.


See, in my view that's a great part of the problem, and one of Katmans' greatest points - all too often when shit happens, we (and I'm saying both motorcycle riders AND car drivers) look to apportion blame to "the environment" when in simple fact, the majority of motorcycle accidents can be avoided by rider awareness of their abilities, their machines abilities and the environs that they ride in.

I used to be a huge critic of Katman, however when I stopped taking the apparent sleights and insults (as so many seem to take them) so personally, then I had to admit to myself, the bastard makes a lot of sense.

But hey, this is purely my own opinion.

I am not a critic of Katman - I just find his delivery a little hard to take - sometimes he seems to get it right .. but today once again he seems to have lost the plot and everyone is to blame who rides.


Seeking solace is bullshit.

Seeking education will save lives.

Heres hoping that no ill befalls your family mate - cos it is sure shit when it does.

Lots of us seek education, receive it, take it well on board, and yet still are not quite perfect.



Biggoted arrogance is in the same league too

This will make no sense to the biggoted arrogant person who you refer - due to arrogance they can not see the wood for the trees.


The problem is not the message, no one will say that katman doesn't have some valid points. There is however better ways of delivering said message.

Better and more appropriate places too.

I agree, - at least now he started a seperate thread - so everyone can ignore if they wish.


Okay, so let's be constructive here - what would be a better way of conveying the message?

What would be the most appropriate place?

We all know many riders, and chances are many of us know a few or more that have wound up dead. Sorry for the blunt talk, it's my upbringing.

Are we so PC that we can't talk about these things without fear of upsetting people, or is it that we as motorcycle riders can't bring ourselves to drop the "bulletproof" mentality that so many of us have adopted?

I think the seperate thread is a smart move myself - his message was inappropriate where it was ... I ain't PC re death of a rider - and I certainly have received support from this site regarding Grubs death - and have lost more friends than I ever thought I would.

When a person is grieving each word cuts like a knive - they know more about the failings of the person who has died and often the situation that caused the death than anyone will ever know unless they have been there, and I mean lost their soul mate.


The outcome of the accident seems to have a huge influence on people's opinions on here.

My accident was relatively high speed, I survived with minimal injuries (although bad enough in their own way) - no one gave me shit about it when it happened and I can say, without saying too much, Katman treated me no differently than he would any other on here. His point is nothing personal, even extending to members of his own family.

I have no issue with that, and feel that his point was entirely justifiable.

As soon as there is death though people's emotions obviously go into overdrive in response to statements, which in themselves are not incorrect.

As for the posts being moved to PD they were not personal insults to the person/people involved - yes I did go in there to read them.

The reason I would assume it was moved would be it was discussion of the accident in an inappropriate thread (this is a guess).


Bullshit.

An individual's failure to factor in environmental circumstances is what is to blame.

I agree in some ways. In others, I still think your delivery and methodology sux - if you acutally want to education - try learning how - due to your delivery people close their eyes and ears.


Quite frankly, I think it's the very place (and time) that it's most needed.

When the pain is the rawest is when the most can be learnt from it.

Those who continue to venerate those who die on a motorcycle through that person's lack of common sense and forethought, cheapen the gift that Motorcycling has to offer us.

You actually have no idea of the pain - I hate to say it, but I am fairly certain I am right there. Your delivery method choosen has not succeeded again, and has isolated those who could learn. I think you are right re place and time, I think that you have a lot to learn about delivery.

[James Deuce]

no, I'm saying that in this case if a collision were to occur, the rider would be primarily at fault, its still and accident. Well he wouldnt be elligible if nick had his way, but yeh, he should get ACC.


Everyone is eligible for ACC irrespective of fault, remember?

Every accident I've had has been my responsibility. My most recent one, 3 years ago, was low speed as I was braking to a halt at an intersection into a very deep gravel drift. My eyes were on the traffic approaching, not the ground. My responsibility though. I'd only just gotten out of hospital after having the worst case of flu with an added dose of pneumonia and was much weaker than I thought I was.

I shouldn't have been riding. A car appeared suddenly, I hadn't grokked the gravel, I fell off. It wasn't the gravel or the car it was me. I was still too unwell to reliably control my bike.

[carver]

But there are sum that just shouldn't!!!!!...:rolleyes: lol

that is ab bit rich :doctor:

[cowboyz]

Speed because there is no limit........

I'm still waiting for ideas to make our game a happy and safer one......

oh FFS! Go sit in the stupid corner.

lets review.

hazzards on a track.........

slower riders (warned with a flag)
oil (warned with a flag)
accident ahead (warned with a flag)

hazzards on a road.
other road users
gravel on road
decreasing radius corners (or misreading corners)
oil
diesel
paint
stock
roadworks



Ummmm I am sure if you think about it you could add a few more to both lists.

still want to press forward with your "track has more hazzards" theory?

As for rider education. Riders dont learn. Learning is boring and repeditive and people dont want to do it. The only real hope is people get sick of reading some rants on some random website and thinking that they might need to pay attention to whats going on when they are riding or take some responisbility when they fuck up

[Katman]

You actually have no idea of the pain - I hate to say it, but I am fairly certain I am right there. Your delivery method choosen has not succeeded again, and has isolated those who could learn. I think you are right re place and time, I think that you have a lot to learn about delivery.

You don't know jack fuckin' shit about me.

[T.W.R]

You don't know jack fuckin' shit about me.

loosing the plot a bit huh? starting to show your true colours mmm?

[Nasty]

You don't know jack fuckin' shit about me.

You are right, and that's an accurate comment, so tell me ... why are you so passionate about other peoples education yet have a true ability to isolate them with your message.

[Katman]

You are right, and that's an accurate comment, so tell me ... why are you so passionate about other peoples education yet have a true ability to isolate them with your message.

I'm not here to answer your questions.

I'm here to deliver a message.

If you agree with the message but don't like the delivery, take the message and deliver it in you own manner.

[Foxzee]

that is ab bit rich :doctor:

Carver..just say it I'm a bitch.....lol

or another way to look at it is a rich bit with ab's............

MMMMMMMMMMM....LOL

[Kickaha]

So cancel all race meetings then......hell a cloud may come over and shadow a perfectly good corner within 2 seconds.......

Well doing that would have saved me falling on my arse last weekend, totlly my fault, knew there was something not quite right with the bike but was trying to make it to the line to get the points,

avoidable? hell yes I could have pulled off when I realised there was a problem


Cop out...cop out of what? Have you never had an "accident" in your life or if you do you always have an explaination or an avenue of blame to direct the cause of that accident to.....

4 "accidents" in 30 years, in 3 out of 4 they were single bike "accidents and totally my fault and no one to blame but myself, unlike a lot of others I'm quite willing to accept responsibility for my own actions and not try and shift the blame onto anyone or anything else, I had crashes I didn't have accidents



An Accident though is just that...Accidental!!!

So what is an accident, is a rider going off the road and into a ditch all by himself an "accident"?


I must say there are more hazards on the track that require rider awareness...

Rubbish there is, there's way less hazzards on the track than the road (well except for when I'm falling off in front of people)


a recognised fault with that piece of road


What recognized fault?

It's a single lane bridge and two passing bays and good visibility at the approaches, it's a static object, the same tomorrow as it was yesterday and even the year before

[T.W.R]

What recognized fault?

It's a single lane bridge and two passing bays and good visibility at the approaches, it's a static object, the same tomorrow as it was yesterday and even the year before

Pull ya head in Warrick...... you know as well as any other Canterbury motorcyclist who's been riding for any number years in the district how many accidents have occurred there, not just bikes but cars, trucks, campervans... you name it and it's probably come to grief there. It's a recognised Black spot :weird:

[Katman]

Pull ya head in Warrick...... you know as well as any other Canterbury motorcyclist who's been riding for any number years in the district how many accidents have occurred there, not just bikes but cars, trucks, campervans... you name it and it's probably come to grief there. It's a recognised Black spot :weird:

Maybe that's simply because of our inherent inability to learn lessons.

[Foxzee]

I'm not here to answer your questions.



It's a public thread you started why can't you answer questions??????

[Katman]

It's a public thread you started why can't you answer questions??????

'Cos I'm special like that.

[T.W.R]

Maybe that's simply because of our inherent inability to learn lessons.

your back from your wee sulk huh ?

[Maha]

riding to the conditions.

I cancelled a ride yesterday because of the conditions. Last week we had a string of very hot sunny days and the Tar Bleed was horendous to say the least. Yesterday morning we woke to rain, and given the fact that I have had not one bin on any of the 16-17 rides I have organised, I was not about to tempt fate and ride (in my view) what I deemed a dangerous combination. So I cancelled the ride.

[Katman]

your back from your wee sulk huh ?

Didn't realise I'd gone anywhere.

[Kickaha]

It's a recognised Black spot

You didn't answer the question?

[T.W.R]

Didn't realise I'd gone anywhere.

nah you sneak around in invisible mode

[Nasty]

I'm not here to answer your questions.

I'm here to deliver a message.

If you agree with the message but don't like the delivery, take the message and deliver it in you own manner.

I am not an adult educator - and I have no wish to be one, you seem to want to ... go and get some lessons on how to deliver and be heard - rather than how to berate people into not listening. Even something simple like a communcations course may help you.

I, personally, have no tolerance for teaching ... but then again that is often found in my profession.

[T.W.R]

You didn't answer the question?

get out and ride a bit more

[Foxzee]

'Cos I'm special like that.

Well then Mr Special get back to your thread with maybe hopefully a mature angle.....attack is so easy..I'm sorry that I wished that cloud to make you crash on your arse...maybe if you weren't such an arse you wouldn't have to spend that much time on it........

[Kickaha]

get out and ride a bit more

:yawn:

One of my last rides was across that bridge, didn't seem to much different from when I first rode over it some 25-30 years ago

[Mom]

Yet again we see the message that you are attempting to deliver, lost in translation. In fact not even lost in translation, simply agravating for some, more blah, blah, blah for others, and frankly insulting to the thinking members on here. The continued hammering of the sensible folk on here grates.

Either find a different way of delivering your message, or STFU :done:

[merv]

:yawn:

One of my last rides was across that bridge, didn't seem to much different from when I first rode over it some 25-30 years ago

One of the points about that bridge (if its the one near Hanmer you are talking about) is that like so much of NZ's scenery it is just fantastic around there. The effect that has on me is to think hmmmm interesting, what's ahead here, and the natural reaction I have is to slow down and be prepared to look at the view and take care all at the same time.

Here's a pic for you Kickaha - vintage is 1974 - doubt the bridge has changed much since then.

[lanci]

I believe the following saying sums it up;

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

That said, a faulty round blowing up in the breach and killing the user suggests the gun infact killed them....... then we think what % of the time would that happen?

[T.W.R]

:yawn:

One of my last rides was across that bridge, didn't seem to much different from when I first rode over it some 25-30 years ago

so was it the 25 or the 30 yrs since you rode over there huh? or you getting an affliction like skatman & thinking you're special compared to the majority of road users ?

[Kickaha]

so was it the 25 or the 30 yrs since you rode over there huh? or you getting an affliction like skatman & thinking you're special compared to the majority of road users ?

Still waiting for an answer or aren't you capable of giving one?

I've ridden over it dozens if not hundreds of times in those 25-30 years

No I don't think I am in any way special nor have I said I am and I don't even think Katman has, but unlike a lot of people I'm prepared to accept responsibility for my own fuck ups and not try and blame shift because it's a "recognised black spot" or make some other excuse

[Nasty]

...
No I don't think I am in any way special nor have I said I am and I don't even think Katman has, but unlike a lot of people I'm prepared to accept responsibility for my own fuck ups and not try and blame shift because it's a "recognised black spot" or make some other excuse

I think I must have missed something ... who isn't taking responsibility ... because I have found that being dead makes it a little hard - and for others quite often its about making excuses.

[T.W.R]

Still waiting for an answer or aren't you capable of giving one?

I've ridden over it dozens if not hundreds of times in those 25-30 years

No I don't think I am in any way special nor have I said I am and I don't even think Katman has, but unlike a lot of people I'm prepared to accept responsibility for my own fuck ups and not try and blame shift because it's a "recognised black spot" or make some other excuse

Pull your head in Warrick...... I don't have to give an explination to you nor does the deceased.
and for your information the deceased had only been in the country a number of months and had probably never ridden that section of North Canterbury before.
You're pretty insensitive dredging that accident trying to put feasability into your petty arguement

[sidecar bob]

Still waiting for an answer or aren't you capable of giving one?

I've ridden over it dozens if not hundreds of times in those 25-30 years

No I don't think I am in any way special nor have I said I am and I don't even think Katman has, but unlike a lot of people I'm prepared to accept responsibility for my own fuck ups and not try and blame shift because it's a "recognised black spot" or make some other excuse

Accept responsibility for your own fuck ups?? clearly youre an old bastard then. Get with the programme, its not cool to do that anymore.

[PrincessBandit]

Shit Dan, can't go saying things like that!!!

But then I doubt you'll worry about the flood of red likely to come your way over it.

[Mully]

Shit Dan, can't go saying things like that!!!

But then I doubt you'll worry about the flood of red likely to come your way over it.

He's got a point though - people that need Katman's message will ignore it (for, among other reasons, it's delivery) and the people that listen to it have probably figured it out for themselves.

Still, Dan gets to come aboard and stir - his favourite passtime as I understand......

[boomer]

.. cheapen the gift that Motorcycling has to offer us.

I'm going to throw up.. !


Get a grip you imbecile.

[merv]

While I'd read this crash was at the Waiau bridge, I immediately thought of what I know as the Waiau bridge on the Hanmer road, hence my asking above was it the one near Hanmer. I now gather that this was at the bridge at Waiau itself, being the one on Rotheram Road I presume?