Constructive advice to government

[R-Soul]

This is a quiote from the governments Q&A report in stuff.co.nz:

"Motorcycle clubs like Ulysses and BRONZ have indicated a strong interest in working with ACC on improving motorcycle safety, and have been critical of the small sum of approximately $250,000 per year that has historically been spent on injury prevention.

The Transport Accident Commission in Victoria, Australia introduced a motorcycle safety levy of $49.50 for every motorbike to create a targeted fund to improve motorcycle safety (see (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Motorcycles/). While
overall motorcycle fatalities in Australia have grown similarly to New Zealand, Victoria has achieved a 20% reduction.

The new ring-fenced fund of $3 million per annum will be modelled on the Victorian experience. The Government will be inviting representatives of motorcyclists to assist in ensuring the funds are well targeted at the sorts of training, information, and road improvements that will be effective."

I wanted to start a thread for what constructive advice could be given to government?

Looking at the stats, it seems like a high proportion of accidents (about 50%) are just bikers having an accident all by themselves, by for example going off corners.

Now I reckon this is because many bikers freeze up on corners and ride off corners because they are not experienced enough to know better, do not countersteer, and are not fully aware of the capabilities of their own bike.

I reckon if bikers attended something like the "California superbike school" where they have bikes kitted out to allow a person to push the limits of front and back wheel grip safely (with trainer wheels), these sort of accidents could be reduced a lot.

So maybe attendance at such training sessions and on such equipment could be a way or reducing ACC levies, and accidents? Or to subsidise the classes at the CSBKS?

Also, maybe increased practical riding test requirements (like the Dutch ones where a hard swerve is required (without brakes) from 50km/hr to show that a rider knows how to use countersteering and is awre of his bikes limits?

Any other possibilities?

Maybe something to target intersection accidents (the other source of major accidents)?

[StoneY]

Sort of related;

Police are hosting a 'skills' course on 21st Feb in Martinborough
Targeting the group rides that take place every weekend and what the Police see as an opening shot in commuity and government cooperation on safety

Posted in Italics, quoted from e-mail I recieved this AM from Police management

Police, ACC, The Police College and the Wairarapa Road Safety Coordinator want to run a causal skills course on a closed off street in martinbrough on Sunday 21st Feb. I understand the bikers all congregate at one particular cafe on the Sunday. We did do a survey last year on the Rimitaka hill and at battle hill , this is a results of the same. prizes etc and a bit of fun.

I have spread the word to Ulysses, HOG and WIMA as well, so far all been keen to come along

[Winston001]

My understanding is that motorcycle skills training works the opposite to how we expect. Having practised and tested their limits, riders leave with an inflated idea of their new abilities. Instead of riding more safely they push the envelope because they have become "better" riders.

[R-Soul]

My understanding is that motorcycle skills training works the opposite to how we expect. Having practised and tested their limits, riders leave with an inflated idea of their new abilities. Instead of riding more safely they push the envelope because they have become "better" riders.

I dont think that you are giving *most* riders enough credit.

Although we know that we can get another 10 degrees of lean angle, we don't because we also know that a dog or pothole could be around the corner. But at least we wont freeze up mid corner in panic because we don't believe we can lean any further...

[awayatc]

You assume that:

A: the government cares about improving bikers safety

B: common sense prevails, or even exists in Beehive

I will also have to have a talk to you about father Christmas and the easterbunny another time son.......

[R-Soul]

You assume that:

A: the government cares about improving bikers safety

B: common sense prevails, or even exists in Beehive

I will also have to have a talk to you about father Christmas and the easterbunny another time son.......

No I am assuming that they dont like paying more money out than they have to - then again I am assuming that they have the vision to see that better training will mean less money paid out long term ... so there goes that theory.

When has "government" and "vision" ever been synonymous? :bash:

[awayatc]

Only vision Beehivers are likely to have is double vision after one or two to many chardonays at lunch.....
if they bothered to show up at all that is.....

[R-Soul]

Here is a thought:

There’s a perception that scooters are an easy and safe mode of transport and that you can ride them in your normal clothes without any training, but that’s simply not true. At the very least, scooter riders should be wearing an approved helmet, protective jacket and gloves.


Some facts from this report:

http://www.acc.co.nz/news/PRD_CTRB108976

Quick facts:
In 2008 more 1,500 new motorcycles were registered in Wellington, about 10% of the national total
More than half of these were under 60cc – the most common type of motorcycle for commuters
The national motorcycle fleet is about 100,000 – about a quarter are scooters under 60cc
About 40 per cent of crashes occur at intersections
In urban areas, the most common injuries are fractures and abrasions to limbs


So most new bikes (half) are scooters, and you can presume thse are new riders, and these guys tend to wear the least safety gear? There is a point to focus on immediately!!

[magicmonkey]

IMHO, what's lacking over here is pre-license training. I think there should be a mandatory 10-15 hours of coached riding, progressing from car park to road which makes up the initial training period. Learners should then sit a test that looks for things which are applicable in real life, rather than mastering the go and stop buttons like they do at the moment. The great thing about this is that it's at the riders expense and it creates jobs for motorcycle trainers. So, making people safe and creating jobs in one foul swoop...

[The Stranger]

Here is a thought:

There’s a perception that scooters are an easy and safe mode of transport and that you can ride them in your normal clothes without any training, but that’s simply not true. At the very least, scooter riders should be wearing an approved helmet, protective jacket and gloves.


Some facts from this report:

http://www.acc.co.nz/news/PRD_CTRB108976

Quick facts:
In 2008 more 1,500 new motorcycles were registered in Wellington, about 10% of the national total
More than half of these were under 60cc – the most common type of motorcycle for commuters
The national motorcycle fleet is about 100,000 – about a quarter are scooters under 60cc
About 40 per cent of crashes occur at intersections
In urban areas, the most common injuries are fractures and abrasions to limbs


So most new bikes (half) are scooters, and you can presume thse are new riders, and these guys tend to wear the least safety gear? There is a point to focus on immediately!!

I know, send them to California Superbike School - problem solved.

[Katman]

I believe the greatest improvement could be made in teaching hazard awareness.

Wouldn't cost a whole lot either.

(That, and making the Basic Handling Skills course a whole lot more thorough).

[BMWST?]

My understanding is that motorcycle skills training works the opposite to how we expect. Having practised and tested their limits, riders leave with an inflated idea of their new abilities. Instead of riding more safely they push the envelope because they have become "better" riders.

i call bullshit.I beleive the sort of rider that attands/training/skills courses(not track days) are not the riders who should attend.Its the ones who think they dont need to/wont learn anything that should.In my experience practising such skills does enhance your skill level,and makes you realise there are levels of performance and skill above your own level.And its fun.

[BMWST?]

Here is a thought:

There’s a perception that scooters are an easy and safe mode of transport and that you can ride them in your normal clothes without any training, but that’s simply not true. At the very least, scooter riders should be wearing an approved helmet, protective jacket and gloves.


Some facts from this report:

http://www.acc.co.nz/news/PRD_CTRB108976

Quick facts:
In 2008 more 1,500 new motorcycles were registered in Wellington, about 10% of the national total
More than half of these were under 60cc – the most common type of motorcycle for commuters
The national motorcycle fleet is about 100,000 – about a quarter are scooters under 60cc
About 40 per cent of crashes occur at intersections
In urban areas, the most common injuries are fractures and abrasions to limbs


So most new bikes (half) are scooters, and you can presume thse are new riders, and these guys tend to wear the least safety gear? There is a point to focus on immediately!!

and most of em prolly has never spoken to another motorcyclist or had any instruction at all in the art of motorcycle riding,and of course all you need is your car license and a helmet...

[p.dath]

...
Looking at the stats, it seems like a high proportion of accidents (about 50%) are just bikers having an accident all by themselves, by for example going off corners.

Now I reckon this is because many bikers freeze up on corners and ride off corners because they are not experienced enough to know better, do not countersteer, and are not fully aware of the capabilities of their own bike.

I reckon if bikers attended something like the "California superbike school" where they have bikes kitted out to allow a person to push the limits of front and back wheel grip safely (with trainer wheels), these sort of accidents could be reduced a lot.
...

The California Superbike School is about teaching you to race. You really should already know how to ride - and we wanting to shave extra time off your laps.

The BRONZ Ride Right Ride Safe course would be more appropriate, or things like the AMCC ART days.

Perhaps I have a suggestion. At the moment learners/restricted licence holders can do a "car" advanced driving course to shorten their licence period. They have to do this, because there are no rescognised motorcycle advanced riding courses.

So how about actually helping some organises to create a recognised advanced rider training course that counts towards those wanting to get a full licence?
And how about subsidising the cost of those courses - because motorcyclists are famous for being tight fisted.

[p.dath]

...
In 2008 more 1,500 new motorcycles were registered in Wellington, about 10% of the national total
More than half of these were under 60cc – the most common type of motorcycle for commuters
The national motorcycle fleet is about 100,000 – about a quarter are scooters under 60cc
About 40 per cent of crashes occur at intersections
In urban areas, the most common injuries are fractures and abrasions to limbs
...

A lot of accidents involve people filtering, or not being seen.

Some intersections have special sections of cyclists. What about opening up the cyclist only areas to 50cc and under scooters/bikes as well?

[The Stranger]

I believe the greatest improvement could be made in teaching hazard awareness.

Wouldn't cost a whole lot either.

(That, and making the Basic Handling Skills course a whole lot more thorough).

What at the sacrifice of speed and lean angle? Are you out of your mind?

[Katman]

What at the sacrifice of speed and lean angle? Are you out of your mind?

Many would say so.

:wacko:

[Tink]

A woman decided that her lane was not suitable and as she turned right, she came into our lane, my 1st reaction (playing pillion)... was to stick my hand out.. no I am not superwoman, sure wished I was...she only reacted when Geordie hooted at her.

My point.. you can't change the rider, or the driver... no matter how many skills you drive into people... ITS THE PERSON ... that needs changing.

I agree with Winston here... cockyness, hoons, idiots... all impowered by this great course they have done...

or

those that have done no course and just use common sense when riding.

Accidents sadly happen... but seriously take your own course into your own hands, and do not judge... just keep that adrenaline on hold.

Tomorrow I attend a memorial for a 6 year old... be lucky your still around to ride a bike.

[CookMySock]

Looking at the stats, it seems like a high proportion of accidents (about 50%) are just bikers having an accident all by themselves, by for example going off corners. Now I reckon this is because many bikers freeze up on corners and ride off corners because they are not experienced enough to know better, do not countersteer, and are not fully aware of the capabilities of their own bike.I agree.


I reckon if bikers attended something like the "California superbike school" where they have bikes kitted out to allow a person to push the limits of front and back wheel grip safely (with trainer wheels), these sort of accidents could be reduced a lot. Nope. It's too late by then. You might be able to pull a few out of it, but newbies must be held down by the hair and forced to do it from scratch, or else they just ride around and cement into their brain a lot of bad habits. As you will know, riding is not some logical rational thing - it is a brain embedding thing, and if you don't embed and fixate it properly from the word go, you are just pissing in the wind.


So maybe attendance at such training sessions and on such equipment could be a way or reducing ACC levies, and accidents? Or to subsidise the classes at the CSBKS?I don't think so. I think it will just be fun for the boys on a cool motorbike, with a certificate at the end.


Also, maybe increased practical riding test requirements (like the Dutch ones where a hard swerve is required (without brakes) from 50km/hr to show that a rider knows how to use countersteering and is awre of his bikes limits?Nuh. Ten minutes explaining, and any idiot can do that. It emphatically does not mean that this person will now revert to their basic training when they get a fright, and imeditely take actions that will save their life, because they DONT HAVE any basic training.

By the way, be careful suggesting on KB that you might make some training apparatus to attach to a bike to inspire confidence in the learner, as I recently tried this and got resoundly bashed by racers and other experienced users alike, much to many Mentors' mirth.

Nice ideas, but misdirected. Throw OUT the basic handling skills course, and replace it with a proper training program that DOES NOT ALLOW bikers on the road unless they are FORCED to undertake a countersteering program which firmly and indelibly stamps it in their brain forever, to such an extent that any fright on the road instantly evokes a reaction from them to correctly swerve around the problem, rather than closing their eyes and running straight into it. If that's too hard, they only get to ride a moped - stiff cheese.

Steve

[Katman]

By the way, be careful suggesting on KB that you might make some training apparatus to attach to a bike to inspire confidence in the learner, as I recently tried this and got resoundly bashed by racers and other experienced users alike, much to many Mentors' mirth.



Oh, how we chortled.

[Squiggles]

Put the money before a panel and let them have a say on how its spent, i know some of the accident prevention people i've worked with will be rubbing their hands together thinking of bonuses etc, when they've done nought but regurgitate and underfund ideas that came about from the 1998 working group. Put 1/2 into Rider training, at all levels... money towards courses such as RRRS (not california superbike school). A 3rd into advertisements and awareness campaigns, more akin to that we see in the UK, again approved by a working group, saves wasting money on some of their more useless advertisements to date. Use the rest as is needed

[Squiggles]

Nice ideas, but misdirected. Throw OUT the basic handling skills course, and replace it with a proper training program that DOES NOT ALLOW bikers on the road unless ....

This is misdirected, such a change is (presumably) legislative (or alternatively, another branch of the govt's responsibility). I would have said you should submit to this effect on the MoT Safer Journeys document, but that consultation closed a couple of months back...

Spending money putting followup courses out there, that are accessible, affordable, and most importantly useful, then promoting these, CAN be done.

[CookMySock]

pending money putting followup courses out there, that are accessible, affordable, and most importantly useful, then promoting these, CAN be done.That's been tried, and no-one wants to do them. Everyone wants the stupid boring demeaning course out of the way so they go ride their bike and do it their way, if they haven't already, but then the mindset is made, bad habits already begun, and you have lost them permanently.

The only way to success is to capture the person before they get on the road, and force them to adhere to the program until they get it.. The advantage is, a person who can brake and steer - aka a sport bike rider, and not just a motorcycle license holder, a marketable benefit.

Steve

[phred]

So the consensus here is that everything is a waste of time and nothing works.
If riders are untrained they crash because they don't know what they are doing.
If they are trained they crash because they are taking risks as they are now "experts".
It is the riders fault.
It is the other persons fault.
Tightening the licensing requirements works for some and not for others.
Ad Nauseam.

[StoneY]

The only way to success is to capture the person before they get on the road, and force them to adhere to the program until they get it.. The advantage is, a person who can brake and steer - aka a sport bike rider, and not just a motorcycle license holder, a marketable benefit.

Steve

Who is to say a skilled rider HAS to be a sport bike owner Steve?

Im own 2 sporty bikes, (ones a superbike actually) and I am constantly overtaken on the Taka's by cruisers, and street bikes, and sometime I even overtake another bike myself, never have i noticed any great skill differential due to bike style, just a sheer horespower difference

On the regular rides I attend, I seem to hold my own mid pack with no effort, make way for faster riders, overtake slower ones as best my skills allow

I would love to do some advanced rider training, but cant find the budget for it, if the gubbermint supplied subsidized courses, I maybe COULD afford to become a 'sportbiker' lol

The Police are running a free skills day in Martinborough, Feb 21
Be there, its free, Police college, area safety officer and Police Motorcycle Team hosting

Be a great test to see HOW MANY experienced riders will actually do a refresher at the least

[CookMySock]

Who is to say a skilled rider HAS to be a sport bike owner Steve?Perhaps I use the wrong word, bro.

What I mean is, there are two categories of rider, one who steers with the bars from the heart, and one who grits his teeth, holds the bars tightly, and tips the bike in as best he can, except when he gets a fright and stands it up and brakes in panic.

One of these riders is a hazard to all and sundry, and they other can extricate himself from the crap should the need arise.

Steve

[Blackbird]

I agree about raising riding standards, doing my advanced in 2003 was a revelation, despite having ridden since the 60's.

However, whilst it's all right and proper to focus on raising rider skills, the outcome would be so much better if he authorities focussed on raising car driver skills too, particularly situational awareness. We could have a very real role in pushing for this at the same time.

[StoneY]

Perhaps I use the wrong word, bro.



One of these riders is a hazard to all and sundry, and they other can extricate himself from the crap should the need arise.

Steve

I knew bro, lol all good, just point making tbh

I probably sit in between the two riders you describe...still have odd moments of panic, wtf, uh oh close eyes and pray!

Having said that I have survived 3 extremely close calls this year alone, 2x actually being collided with by other vehicles (one cage, one bike)...and stayed upright (phew)

Guess I'm doing something right

[duckonin]

I dont think that you are giving *most* riders enough credit.

Although we know that we can get another 10 degrees of lean angle, we don't because we also know that a dog or pothole could be around the corner. But at least we wont freeze up mid corner in panic because we don't believe we can lean any further...

Use the power of positive thinking, when the going gets tough to save your arse push on that bar, put that into your top paddock " going is getting tough!! push push looking for that way out, always do that and when it is time to panic your "brain" will use those thoughts to stay safe...

[jeffs]

So the consensus here is that everything is a waste of time and nothing works.
If riders are untrained they crash because they don't know what they are doing.
If they are trained they crash because they are taking risks as they are now "experts".
It is the riders fault.
It is the other persons fault.
Tightening the licensing requirements works for some and not for others.
Ad Nauseam.

Well Said Phred :)

All this thread is saying , some of us want to ride better, but what ever is offered is not good enough for some, because they see themselfs as already perfect.

I don't give a shit what is on offer.

I will go to any professionally run Rider training offered by ACC, why because I might just learn one thing, and if that one thing means I do not crash I have learned something.

ACC have said they listened to bikers and reduced the levies, one of the costs of doing this was to put some money aside to set up training programs.

By all means feel free to not attend, but when ACC hike the levies again because all the existing bikers thought they were to good to attend. Don't you dare complain about the rises.

If you go, you have a voice, if you don't , you have little interest in safety and you waisted an opportunity due to arrogance.

Track days will not teach you Risk analysis and hazard identification the mainstays of any safety program.

[CookMySock]

Use the power of positive thinking, when the going gets tough to save your arse push on that bar, put that into your top paddock " going is getting tough!! push push looking for that way out, always do that and when it is time to panic your "brain" will use those thoughts to stay safe...This is the category I find myself in. I had one bad scare and now I prefer not to provoke such a thing in the near future.

How I wish I had been bought into the sport steering with the bars. My 16 son has, and he had his 650 for a week (6F) and cleaned the strips right off that, without fear whatsoever, and I much rather I thought (or rather believed) like he does, but put simply, I can never go there as my brain doesn't work that way without conscious input, and that conscious input goes out the window when I get a scare. So basically I reckon I'm fucked - doomed to touring forever. :pinch:

Steve

[avgas]

egg sucking must be common place these days. Ulysses seems to think we could all suck a bit more.

Sorry I don't buy a bar of any of this bullshit - If people need help they need to learn lesson one : Ask for it.

Riding a bike is something that you can assess at a level of safety - and that it. After then its completely up to the rider.

I am not claiming that I am the greatest rider (or any of that bullshit), but I happily learn by doing. If I don't want to learn something I wont.

I see no value in telling people they HAVE to learn to ride. Just an excuse for why we are getting ripped off.
This is exactly why I don't like Ulysses and BRONZ - why are their decisions good enough for the rest of us?
Have my own thoughts thanks - shove yours up your arse.

I will come back to this thread when I have calmed down a bit - and offer some constructive advice. Sorry about the rant
_Stew

[jeffs]

Sorry I don't buy a bar of any of this bullshit - If people need help they need to learn lesson one : Ask for it.



Stew I did not say go to BRONZ or Ulysses for training, I suspect ACC will not use these as their provider. ( much to the disgust of these groups ). There is too much devision withing the biking community for either one of these groups to be successful.

But you are right

People who know they need help will ask.

and wrong.

People who think they do not need help won't.

[Blackbird]

People who know they need help will ask.

and wrong.

People who think they do not need help won't.

Not quite that simple I'm afraid. You can't categorise people as all the same. In other forms of training, it's called "unconscious incompetence", i.e, you don't know what you don't know - the bottom rung of the ladder.

Sometimes, you need to give people a lift to move them into a headspace where they know that they're falling short. A good example was teaching (a loose description:whistle:) my wife to drive to the vanishing point in her sports car. Once she'sd done that really well, she was keen to learn other stuff.

[R-Soul]

A lot of accidents involve people filtering, or not being seen.

Some intersections have special sections of cyclists. What about opening up the cyclist only areas to 50cc and under scooters/bikes as well?

That makes sense as they cant go a lot faster than cyclists anyway, and they can hardly pull away faster than cars... so they end up being in front of a bunch of frustrated cagers that they have just schnaaaied at the last traffic light, and who are no wriding up their ass...which seems bloody dangerous to me (not that it stops them from filtering of course)

[jeffs]

Not quite that simple I'm afraid. You can't categorise people as all the same. In other forms of training, it's called "unconscious incompetence", i.e, you don't know what you don't know - the bottom rung of the ladder.



Ok Since you insist, can I use wikipedia to define the categories ? :)


1. Unconscious Incompetence

The individual neither understands nor knows how to do something, nor recognizes the deficit, nor has a desire to address it.

2. Conscious Incompetence

Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, without yet addressing it.

3. Conscious Competence

The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires a great deal of consciousness or concentration.

4. Unconscious Competence

The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it becomes "second nature" and can be performed easily (often without concentrating too deeply). He or she may or may not be able teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.

I'm sure this covers most people in 8 words :)

[R-Soul]

Riding a bike is something that you can assess at a level of safety - and that it. After then its completely up to the rider.

I am not claiming that I am the greatest rider (or any of that bullshit), but I happily learn by doing. If I don't want to learn something I wont.

I see no value in telling people they HAVE to learn to ride. Just an excuse for why we are getting ripped off.

_Stew

Let me give you an example - when I learnt to ride in SA, no strict tests were neccessary that really showed you know how to control the bike (like countersteering, or tests to show that you could veer heavily and under control. You basically had to show that you could control the bike at low speed, and the road rules, and thats it. There was no forced instruction or anything.

I only learnt about countersteering AFTER my two accidents. They could both have been avoided with one sentence at an appropriate time: "Do you know how to countersteer?"
I was unconsciously incompetent, but had a burning desire to address it and be good on a bike (who does not want to be good in a bike?) , and would have been a lot more competent and got more involved if I had known that there was such a lot to learn.
The education systems should at least teach you the basics, plus that there is a lot more to learn, both theoretically and practically. Not just clutch, brakes and throttle.

Me, like most teenagers at the time, was given credit for a lot of knowledge that I simpley never had, and could not have known about without some kind of forced education.

[The Stranger]

I'm sure this covers most people in 8 words :)

No. Most are covered in 2 words - see point number 1.

[StoneY]

No. Most are covered in 2 words - see point number 1.

Yep, my bet too, not KNOWING what your doing wrong

I thought I was a good rider (good enough) untill I started riding with regular KB rides
Learnt more from well meaning fellow KBers than I ever learned from mere experience and the school of hard knocks

Having said that, you need to be WILLING to learn for the knowledge to have effect

[R-Soul]

I was unconsciously incompetent, but had a burning desire to address it and be good on a bike (who does not want to be good in a bike?) , and would have been a lot more competent and got more involved if I had known that there was such a lot to learn.

Let me remind you that this was in the days befor the 'Net, and it was not so easy to find out everything that you can now with the push of a button.

[The Stranger]

Having said that, you need to be WILLING to learn for the knowledge to have effect

Yes. I've mentioned before. We often see those at RRRS come along to "make up numbers" in a group or because a mate or partner "need" to come, but not them. They already know it all.

It takes about half a day for them to realise they don't and to actually start learning. Bit of a waste really, but hey at least they get half value from the course.

[R-Soul]

A woman decided that her lane was not suitable and as she turned right, she came into our lane, my 1st reaction (playing pillion)... was to stick my hand out.. no I am not superwoman, sure wished I was...she only reacted when Geordie hooted at her.

My point.. you can't change the rider, or the driver... no matter how many skills you drive into people... ITS THE PERSON ... that needs changing.

I agree with Winston here... cockyness, hoons, idiots... all impowered by this great course they have done...

or

those that have done no course and just use common sense when riding.

Accidents sadly happen... but seriously take your own course into your own hands, and do not judge... just keep that adrenaline on hold.

Tomorrow I attend a memorial for a 6 year old... be lucky your still around to ride a bike.


This is perfect example of unconsciously incompetent - Do you not realise that being able to turn or swerve quickly in that situation is CRITICAL? and that if, as a rider, it had been hardwired in, your first reaction would have been to swerve to give way by using the bars.

Your suggestion of "just using common sense" just does not cut it. And you seem to have no desire whatsoever to improve your situation? Ridiculous!

Common sense does NOT help you fgure out situations where bike control is counter intuitive - training and instruction does.

[R-Soul]

The California Superbike School is about teaching you to race. You really should already know how to ride - and we wanting to shave extra time off your laps.

The BRONZ Ride Right Ride Safe course would be more appropriate, or things like the AMCC ART days.

Perhaps I have a suggestion. At the moment learners/restricted licence holders can do a "car" advanced driving course to shorten their licence period. They have to do this, because there are no rescognised motorcycle advanced riding courses.

So how about actually helping some organises to create a recognised advanced rider training course that counts towards those wanting to get a full licence?
And how about subsidising the cost of those courses - because motorcyclists are famous for being tight fisted.


I only mentioned the CSBKS as it is teh only one I knew of, and who have a machine (in the USA at least) on which you can learn where teh limits of grip are. But yeah, other classes are cool, whatever..

I did not realise that teh advanced riding course required to cut doen restricted license time was actually a car course. Thats just dumb.

Then your suggestion of an advanced riding course is great -$3mill can set these up all over the country. But making them compulsory would be better. Preferably instead of the basic skill handling course RIGHT at the begginning. Or two levels - one at the beginning and one at the end.

The idea being that beginner riders come out hvaing a great idea of how to control their bike, and what it can do.

[R-Soul]

This is the category I find myself in. I had one bad scare and now I prefer not to provoke such a thing in the near future.

How I wish I had been bought into the sport steering with the bars. My 16 son has, and he had his 650 for a week (6F) and cleaned the strips right off that, without fear whatsoever, and I much rather I thought (or rather believed) like he does, but put simply, I can never go there as my brain doesn't work that way without conscious input, and that conscious input goes out the window when I get a scare. So basically I reckon I'm fucked - doomed to touring forever. :pinch:

Steve


That is why track days are valuable - not because they teach you to race, but because they teach you to have faith in the engineering.

[R-Soul]

I agree about raising riding standards, doing my advanced in 2003 was a revelation, despite having ridden since the 60's.

However, whilst it's all right and proper to focus on raising rider skills, the outcome would be so much better if he authorities focussed on raising car driver skills too, particularly situational awareness. We could have a very real role in pushing for this at the same time.

Well thats why we want the right to sue back from the ACC!

Nothing wakes a cager faster than an impending kick in the wallet...

:crazy:

[R-Soul]

By the way, be careful suggesting on KB that you might make some training apparatus to attach to a bike to inspire confidence in the learner, as I recently tried this and got resoundly bashed by racers and other experienced users alike, much to many Mentors' mirth.


I mentioned it because I read about it recently and thought what a great idea it was. It is offered by Keith code at the CSBKS, and in fact he even has a US patent on the machine (but not in NZ- at least none that I could find). So there you have all the instructions to make one laid out. The mechanism holds the bike up (kind of like on trainer wheels) when back or front wheel grip is lost in cornering, so you are not scared to push grip to its ultimate limit.

It makes no sense to me why each time you learn what the ultimate levels of grip on a bike are, the experience should be accompanied by pain and a massive dent to the wallet. A few sessions on such a machine would also teach riders JUST how far they can actually go. So that, while they probably will never actually ride at these levels, the one time they go into a corner too fast, they wont freeze and go off the outside.

[R-Soul]

Here the machines are:


http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/

[The Stranger]

Well thats why we want the right to sue back from the ACC!


Be careful what you wish for.
Last time I sued someone it cost me many tens of thousands of dollars, up front. You got that kicking around?
If you can sue others, should they be able to sue you?

[R-Soul]

Be careful what you wish for.
Last time I sued someone it cost me many tens of thousands of dollars, up front. You got that kicking around?
If you can sue others, should they be able to sue you?

Only if they pay increased ACC levies... ;)

Yeah I am not actually a big fan of sueing anybody. I was hoping that something could get cagers to wakeup and smell the coffee. But it probably won't as they are ALSO unconsciously incompetent.

[Tink]

This is perfect example of unconsciously incompetent - Do you not realise that being able to turn or swerve quickly in that situation is CRITICAL? and that if, as a rider, it had been hardwired in, your first reaction would have been to swerve to give way by using the bars.

Your suggestion of "just using common sense" just does not cut it. And you seem to have no desire whatsoever to improve your situation? Ridiculous!

Common sense does NOT help you fgure out situations where bike control is counter intuitive - training and instruction does.

I understand... but...our beautiful young Amber is gone.. a learner .. a lover of petrol sports.... your daddy is to you still AND WILL be always No 1

[R-Soul]

I understand... but...our beautiful young Amber is gone.. a learner .. a lover of petrol sports.... your daddy is to you still AND WILL be always No 1

Sorry... didn't mean to be a jerk...

[R-Soul]

Geez that was a conversation stopper huh? But it seems a waste to let a nice constructive thread like this go to waste. Any other ideas on constructive advice for the gubbermint?