Separate Maori welfare funding

[JimO]

Whanau Ora..........what a great idea they can use the treaty money

[FJRider]

Insert Tui's add' here ...

[peasea]

Whanau Ora..........what a great idea they can use the treaty money

Yeah, see how they like funding their OWN bludgers.

[PrincessBandit]

Wow, does anyone else think this (taxpayer funded if I heard rightly before on the news) is going to open up a supersize can'o'worms?

OOOOPS, my bad. Sorry mods, didn't see this already. Where are my glasses???

[PrincessBandit]

cut and pasted from tv3 website:


By Duncan Garner
"Official documents obtained exclusively by 3 News show the Government is close to a decision that would see millions of dollars set aside to fund a separate Maori welfare system.
The taxpayer millions would be handed over to private Maori agencies that will be tasked with delivering social services to Maori families.
It is a bold and controversial extension of a current aid programme called Whanau Ora and a cause the Maori Party has been championing."

So......this is taxpayer $, not treaty $

[Tank]

as long as its paid for by the maori taxpayers then its all good.

Still - its gonna be hard on both the maori fellas with jobs.

[Tank]

. Where are my glasses???

Looking at your avatar - just on top of your helmet.

[P38]

That system has already been tried in South Africa .........

Look how well that all turned out!

[Subike]

So where is the welfare support for 4th generation white kiwis?
For Fucks Sake.
If your a yellow/brown/white import you get support,
Just be dark darked skinned, you get support
If you are a drug addict, alcaholic, solo mother/father, you get support.
If you are a white kiwi single male, law abiding, gainfully employed, pay taxes etc, and need that extra bit of help to get you over a difficult time, the'll tell you to fuck off and fend for yourself! There is nothing!
Its discrimination at its worst. Special Welfafre based upon ethinc origons!
We are all New Zealanders, why do some sectors of this"everyones equal" society get treated differently because of the choices they make freely.
We as bikers have just seen this happen to us with the ACC leveys,
Now Seperate Maori Welare funding??
I object big time as I am a 4th generation white Kiwi, I probably have more right to be here than most of the 1/8 1/16th cast maoris who get the claims, extra special help, govt payout etc.
I get told to fuck off....
My rant
Its Discrimination period!

[Highlander]

That system has already been tried in South Africa .........

Look how well that all turned out!

Aren't you thinking of Apartheid?
That is such an old and ugly word. Here we are calling it Equality.



So where is the welfare support for 4th generation white kiwis?
For Fucks Sake.
If your a yellow/brown/white import you get support,
Just be dark darked skinned, you get support
If you are a drug addict, alcaholic, solo mother/father, you get support.
If you are a white kiwi single male, law abiding, gainfully employed, pay taxes etc, and need that extra bit of help to get you over a difficult time, the'll tell you to fuck off and fend for yourself! There is nothing!
Its discrimination at its worst. Special Welfafre based upon ethinc origons!
We are all New Zealanders, why do some sectors of this"everyones equal" society get treated differently because of the choices they make freely.
We as bikers have just seen this happen to us with the ACC leveys,
Now Seperate Maori Welare funding??
I object big time as I am a 4th generation white Kiwi, I probably have more right to be here than most of the 1/8 1/16th cast maoris who get the claims, extra special help, govt payout etc.
I get told to fuck off....
My rant
Its Discrimination period!

There is no body more descriminated against (by the system) in this country than us white, able-bodied males. EVERYONE else can claim they are being descriminated against because of Race, sex or handicap. We have no come back.

[FJRider]

Looking at your avatar - just on top of your helmet.

Blonde's ........ :oi-grr:

[P38]

as long as its paid for by the maori taxpayers then its all good.

Still - its gonna be hard on both the maori fellas with jobs.

I'm all for user pays too.

Unfortunately in this instance "YOU" will be the one paying and the Users will keep on Using.

[Rayray401]

Aren't you thinking of Apartheid?
That is such an old and ugly word. Here we are calling it Equality.




There is no body more descriminated against (by the system) in this country than us white, able-bodied males. EVERYONE else can claim they are being descriminated against because of Race, sex or handicap. We have no come back.

well, then again it wasnt the black who enslaved the white....so i guess....is it all just abit of kharma? lol.

But yes, that is true, if you are a 'minority' you'll be able to claim. asians cant claim in NZ can they? im pretty sure its only the maoris and pollies? or was it just the maoris?

[Molly]

In the lead up to the last election Maori party representatives said they'd be keen to see the end of the dole for their people as they felt it was doing them no good to languish on the benefit for long periods of time.

I haven't heard mention of this desire since then. Does anybody know if the Maori party are now pushing for such change?

[White trash]

This is awesome news for New Zealand.

Seperate the Maori and New Zealander welfare systems. Maori welfare system soley funded by Maori tax payers, other welfare funded by all other taxpayers.

All of a sudden, there's a welfare SURPLUS for non Maori New Zealanders and we can all get that fucken tax cut that's been promised.

This country's fucked. I'v had enough, this rule for one group, another rule for another has gone too far and it's going to get worse.

Fuck New Zealand, I'm moving.

[Tony.OK]

This is awesome news for New Zealand.

Seperate the Maori and New Zealander welfare systems. Maori welfare system soley funded by Maori tax payers, other welfare funded by all other taxpayers.

All of a sudden, there's a welfare SURPLUS for non Maori New Zealanders and we can all get that fucken tax cut that's been promised.

This country's fucked. I'v had enough, this rule for one group, another rule for another has gone too far and it's going to get worse.

Fuck New Zealand, I'm moving.

Looks like National is hell bent on only being in for one term huh?

One country one people................one rule "teach how to bludge"

[meowmix]

Not really keen on this anti-racism. I choose to work for less than what the unemployment benefit will offer (till I manage to get a fulltime job) and when I try to get a supplement to get a little closer to the unemployment benefit, I get intimidated and threatened!
Bull.

[P38]

Aren't you thinking of Apartheid?
That is such an old and ugly word. Here we are calling it Equality.

The only equallity I can see in this idiotic idea is ...
The ordinary tax payer is going to get equally shafted to pay for this.

Seperate education, seperate welfare, seperate justice system, seperate flag all based on race... and the list goes on an on an on.

There is only one word for this type of system and thats Apartheid

Successive New Zealand Governments...........

"Making Aussi Citizens Outta Hard Working Kiwis Since Ages Ago"!!!!!!

[White trash]

Looks like National is hell bent on only being in for one term huh?

One country one people................one rule "teach how to bludge"
The thing is mate, because of the MMP situation, minor parties will continue to hold major parties ransom in return for their support. It will continue on this slide regardless of who's in power untill the system changes.

There is a solution. All men, regardless of race, decsent, whatever, start breeding with Maori chicks. No white on white, asian on white, asian to asian, poly to white or asian to poly breeding.

That way, our Grandchildren will enjoy a truly equal existance in years to come.

[MadDuck]

There is a solution. All men, regardless of race, decsent, whatever, start breeding with Maori chicks.

Hang on WT back the bus up. So what do us white chicks do?

[White trash]

Hang on WT back the bus up. So what do us white chicks do?
Oh we'll screw ya, just wont breed with ya luv :D

[DMNTD]

Oh we'll screw ya, just wont breed with ya luv :D

Indeed....every hole is a goal

[Qkkid]

Whanau Ora..........what a great idea they can use the treaty money

WTF................ unfuckinbelievable

[DMNTD]

WTF................ unfuckinbelievable

Nah not really e hoa...crazy? YES

[Delerium]

Hang on WT back the bus up. So what do us white chicks do?

Hold for me, the one dissenter amongst the ranks :whistle:

[White trash]

Hold for me, the one dissenter amongst the ranks :whistle:
A seperatist supporter? You'll be burned mother fucker.

[Molly]

Without social problems and the Treaty axe to grind political representatives wouldn't be able to make the good living they do. They've a vested interest in perpetuating differences and conflict.

If National do nothing else, I think they should ensure that every healthy, long-term beneficiary has the opportunity to work for their money via a 'welfare to work' scheme. It'd provide skills, social contact with the working population, and structure. It's our responsibility to do whatever it takes to get people off the dole and generating wealth for themselves and the economy. Anyway, whatever is decided something needs to be done. The present situation is unsustainable.

[White trash]

Without social problems and the Treaty axe to grind political representatives wouldn't be able to make the good living they do. They've a vested interest in perpetuating differences and conflict.

If National do nothing else, I think they should ensure that every healthy, long-term beneficiary has the opportunity to work for their money via a 'welfare to work' scheme. It'd provide skills, social contact with the working population, and structure. It's our responsibility to do whatever it takes to get people off the dole and generating wealth for themselves and the economy. Anyway, whatever is decided something needs to be done. The present situation is unsustainable.
An excellent post looking at solving the social issues we now face. The problem is, there is not currently enough jobs for the people that DO want to work in NZ. Forcing people to work for their benefit will remove positions for those that actually WANT to work. Unless it's positions of hard labour building roads with pick axes and digging gullys for railway lines. Then you're once again on a slippery slope.

[Molly]

An excellent post looking at solving the social issues we now face. The problem is, there is not currently enough jobs for the people that DO want to work in NZ. Forcing people to work for their benefit will remove positions for those that actually WANT to work. Unless it's positions of hard labour building roads with pick axes and digging gullys for railway lines. Then you're once again on a slippery slope.

I agree. It's full of holes. Maybe there's an answer with increased adult education opportunities. Instead of just handing out benefit cheques, how about requiring that long-term beneficiaries engage in some sort of skills ... oh, what's the f'kin' use... Just wait until NZ goes broke and then hope for some decisive action.

I've had my share of redundancies over the years. I eventually found myself on the dole for what I swore would be the last time so started night school classes, then an access to Uni. course for a second year (teaching guitar on the side to pay for exams and fees - f'k all was free even if you were on the dole). After two years I'd a place at Uni. and five years later I'd a first class degree, MSc and qualified teacher status (and a huge student loan...). Anyway, I haven't needed the dole for fifteen years now so maybe there really is an answer in adult education.

[Genie]

cut and pasted from tv3 website:


By Duncan Garner
"Official documents obtained exclusively by 3 News show the Government is close to a decision that would see millions of dollars set aside to fund a separate Maori welfare system.
The taxpayer millions would be handed over to private Maori agencies that will be tasked with delivering social services to Maori families.
It is a bold and controversial extension of a current aid programme called Whanau Ora and a cause the Maori Party has been championing."

So......this is taxpayer $, not treaty $

I just find this so scarey....look what they did to Sealords! FFS

[Molly]

I just find this so scarey....look what they did to Sealords! FFS

Are they just deliberately sabotaging the economy? How many skilled Kiwis are going to say ‘enough is enough’ and just get the f’k out?

[White trash]

I agree. It's full of holes. Maybe there's an answer with increased adult education opportunities. Instead of just handing out benefit cheques, how about requiring that long-term beneficiaries engage in some sort of skills ... oh, what's the f'kin' use... Just wait until NZ goes broke and then hope for some decisive action.

I've had my share of redundancies over the years. I eventually found myself on the dole for what I swore would be the last time so started night school classes, then an access to Uni. course for a second year (teaching guitar on the side to pay for exams and fees - f'k all was free even if you were on the dole). After two years I'd a place at Uni. and five years later I'd a first class degree, MSc and qualified teacher status (and a huge student loan...). Anyway, I haven't needed the dole for fifteen years now so maybe there really is an answer in adult education.
Thread's now heading on a tangent, away from the actual issue being mentioned but this does require further discussion. I think the education is a good idea, people are learning and (hopefully) going on to make a difference.

Let's not forget, prior to the current economic bullshit, NZ had the lowest unemployment rate in decades, someone WAS doing a good job.

[Molly]

Thread's now heading on a tangent, away from the actual issue being mentioned.

OK, sorry.

[MadDuck]

Thread's now heading on a tangent, away from the actual issue being mentioned but this does require further discussion.

I have been made redundant 4 times which is a lot for someone so young. I put myself through night school to get my degree (took 10 years) NEVER once asked for tax payer support.

I cleaned shitty offices in the middle of the night. To be honest I am sick to death of people just putting their hand out. Maori Welfare....shhssss. If they want to fund it themselves they can go for it.

[peasea]

Are they just deliberately sabotaging the economy? How many skilled Kiwis are going to say ‘enough is enough’ and just get the f’k out?

Better still, how many skilled kiwis are going to stay (or come home) and tell THEM to get the fuck out?

Shoulda shot the lot when we had the chance; they don't even wear fuckin' helmets for keerist's sake!

[peasea]

someone WAS doing a good job.

A European no doubt.

[XRVrider]

If average bloke on the street has to fund a separate race's health... cant see that going down well. Funded by Maori... hmm will that really happen? Its shit separating races who live in one country... leads down an ugly path.

Maybe there should be a march on Parliament... maybe call it Bro oi. Maybe not.

[sAsLEX]

hmmm used to be a system that did something similar by basing Govt support on race...... Apartheid.

What other leader thought race was the key decider in how you would be treated......Hitler.

[Thaeos]

Well, separate from what? I mean, taxpayer money pays for maori beneficiaries now right? Including Maori taxpayers. And with this thing ... taxpayer money will pay for Maori beneficiaries ...

Just seems like a load of bureaucratic crap? Granted all I've read about it is in this thread..

[steve_t]

Huh? Where did the notion that the funding would come from Maori taxpayers only come from? Doesn't every tax payer get equally screwed for this scheme? And when they run out of money, they'll probably borrow from ACC which will lead to an increase in ACC PAYE premiums... oh and vehicle regos

[gatch]

If it means the money that is already being spent on maori beneficiaries, is going to be managed by a different body then ok I guess, it is the same shit just wearing a different hat.

If however it means taxpayers have to pay MORE to support Whanau Ora, then the treaty of Waitangi may as we be used as toilet paper and flushed. It still boggles me why all the time and effort has been spent trying to implement this system.

One nation, one people, one flag.

My arse.

[sAsLEX]

One nation, one people, one flag.

My arse.
Thought I would just highlight a portion of the UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS



Article 2.

* Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.





Article 21.

* (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
* (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
* (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

[Rayray401]

so...whens the maori revolution going to be? is the white/asian man going to be kicked out like what happened in india? since we're already separating everything..

[Ooky]

I'm all for it:2thumbsup
one condition! we get tax cuts to refund us for what we arn't entitled too:cool:

[rphenix]

Looks like National is hell bent on only being in for one term huh?

One country one people................one rule "teach how to bludge"

Sure do. Wish we could bring the next election sooner :argh:

[h211]

This sort of shit fucks me right off. Its hand out after fucking hand out and nothing ever changes. No matter how much they are given, its never enough. Fuck this country and the people who run it, im out as soon as im done with study. Paying my loan back...yeah fucking right!

[Molly]

How long before white NZ is criticised for dumping Maori problems at the feet of Maori people (first by Sharples when the whole thing goes tits-up)?


Just out of interest I've been looking at the job situation in Austraila. Bet I'm not the only one.

[rphenix]

Maybe there should be a march on Parliament... maybe call it Bro oi. Maybe not. Probably not! Afterall thats racist! Watching the news tonight "labour" are scared of having a position in case someone thinks they are racist.

"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"

[sAsLEX]

This sort of shit fucks me right off. Its hand out after fucking hand out and nothing ever changes. No matter how much they are given, its never enough. Fuck this country and the people who run it, im out as soon as im done with study. Paying my loan back...yeah fucking right!

Didn't Ngāi Tahu have a full and final settlement a few years back?

And they still were involved in the bribe to get the ETS through?

[gatch]

Just out of interest I've been looking at the job situation in Austraila. Bet I'm not the only one.

You are not the only one, 13 months I've got till my apprentice time is up..

[retro asian]

There is no body more descriminated against (by the system) in this country than us white, able-bodied males. EVERYONE else can claim they are being descriminated against because of Race, sex or handicap. We have no come back.



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[steve_t]

If it means the money that is already being spent on maori beneficiaries, is going to be managed by a different body then ok I guess, it is the same shit just wearing a different hat.

If however it means taxpayers have to pay MORE to support Whanau Ora, then the treaty of Waitangi may as we be used as toilet paper and flushed. It still boggles me why all the time and effort has been spent trying to implement this system.

One nation, one people, one flag.

My arse.

So yeah, it's probably just the same old deal with benefits but with Maori board of trustee members or company directors earning a sweet salary funded by the taxpayers.
Treaty of Waitangi promises the maori EQUITY, not EQUALITY...


Thought I would just highlight a portion of the UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS



Article 2.

* Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.





Article 21.

* (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
* (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
* (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Wow, so 'reverse-racism' and race based welfare etc is a breach of the Human Rights Act? Surely someone would lodge a complaint with the Human Rights Commission if this was the case?

[SMOKEU]

That system has already been tried in South Africa .........

Look how well that all turned out!

I'm South African, and you're right, my country is fucked.

[wbks]

I'm South African, and you're right, my country is fucked.I'm not going to pretend I know what it's like, but just hearing about SA from SA immigrants to NZ and what not... Doesn't this all (in NZ) seem so petty, compared?

I'm chuckling at all the dudes complaining about the events recently in this country as if they care about what's happening to it... But they're fleeing overseas as soon as something happens they don't like. If you love the country, then do something about making it a better place, but don't act as if you give a shit what happens to the country when you are already planning an escape route the moment a separate welfare system is mentioned.

[SMOKEU]

I'm not going to pretend I know what it's like, but just hearing about SA from SA immigrants to NZ and what not... Doesn't this all (in NZ) seem so petty, compared?



South Africa is fucked because there are too many niggas in the country. And if you think I'm a racist prick, then why is EVERY country with a black majority poor?

[wbks]

I'm South African, and you're right, my country is fucked.


South Africa is fucked because there are too many niggas in the country. And if you think I'm a racist prick, then why is EVERY country with a black majority poor?Hey, I kind of expected it from a south african, like I would from too many australians. I'm not going to judge, I've never been there. I was just saying that race relations in south africa must make these debates of it in NZ seem pretty petty, am I right? And to answer you question, I think it is the result of different environmental resources, which meant africans never got to the industrial stages europeans did, which meant the primal ways of living carried on, which were pretty fucked anyway, and then colonialists come along...

[SMOKEU]

Hey, I kind of expected it from a south african, like I would from too many australians. I'm not going to judge, I've never been there. I was just saying that race relations in south africa must make these debates of it in NZ seem pretty petty, am I right?

You're spot on. It's dangerous over there. Every day there are dozens of murders. It's an all out war; a free-for-all. Where I used to live, I was used to going to sleep with the sound of gun shots echoing thoughout the otherwise quiet hood the whole night. Almost as normal as cars driving past the house.

[wbks]

You're spot on. It's dangerous over there. Every day there are dozens of murders. It's an all out war; a free-for-all. Where I used to live, I was used to going to sleep with the sound of gun shots echoing thoughout the otherwise quiet hood the whole night. Almost as normal as cars driving past the house.I didn't realise it was that bad in everyday SA! No wonder there have been so many white south africans lately in NZ. Not that I'm complaining, they all seem to be good people. I know it happens in other parts of africa, but are white SA'ers being forced out of their farms and residences by black africans, in any parts of south africa as well?

[kwaka_crasher]

There is a solution. All men, regardless of race, descent, whatever, start breeding with Maori chicks.

The price is too high.

[Dave Lobster]

Maybe there should be a march on Parliament... maybe call it Bro oi. Maybe not.

Would this be on a work day?




Thought I would just highlight a portion of the UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS



Article 2.

* Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.





Article 21.

* (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
* (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
* (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

This doesn't apply if you're white. Human rights are for minority groups and brown people only.


......., and then colonialists come along...

I'm pretty sure white people were the first to colonise south Africa. I may be wrong..

[Grahameeboy]

Hang on WT back the bus up. So what do us white chicks do?

Cause Dad's like me grief

[Grahameeboy]

South Africa is fucked because there are too many niggas in the country. And if you think I'm a racist prick, then why is EVERY country with a black majority poor?

yeah NZ is poor.....less is more in NZ's case..lol

[2wheeldrifter]

What aload of crap!

All I get out of it is that they are admitting that Maoris are a useless breed!! Yeah so hard done by aren't they, wonder how you breed racialism!!!???

IWI

I Want It

[mashman]

This has to be one of the most ignorant policies i've ever heard of... There's something awfully smelly about it. I can't actually believe that this is something that Maori would want.

[oldrider]

You're spot on. It's dangerous over there. Every day there are dozens of murders. It's an all out war; a free-for-all. Where I used to live, I was used to going to sleep with the sound of gun shots echoing thoughout the otherwise quiet hood the whole night. Almost as normal as cars driving past the house.

Don't worry, New Zealand is now a developing country, we are catching up fast! First Helen Clark, now John Key, formidable acts to follow! :wacko:

All we need is a United Nations charter now and we will be right down there with the rest of the third world countries! :whistle:

[cowboyz]

Would this be on a work day?





This doesn't apply if you're white. Human rights are for minority groups and brown people only.




I am a middle aged white guy earnign average wage who owns his own house.

I am the most discriminated group out there and I have no support network:zzzz::zzzz::zzzz:

[davereid]

I am a middle aged white guy earnign average wage who owns his own house.

I am the most discriminated group out there and I have no support network:zzzz::zzzz::zzzz:

Yes you do, you got KB :-)

[DMNTD]

Yes you do, you got KB :-)

Oh we're all farked then! :(:weep::buggerd:

[MSTRS]

I'm not going to pretend I know what it's like, but just hearing about SA from SA immigrants to NZ and what not... Doesn't this all (in NZ) seem so petty, compared?

I'm chuckling at all the dudes complaining about the events recently in this country as if they care about what's happening to it... But they're fleeing overseas as soon as something happens they don't like. If you love the country, then do something about making it a better place, but don't act as if you give a shit what happens to the country when you are already planning an escape route the moment a separate welfare system is mentioned.

Petty? We are talking a minority race here. And then only a minority within that race, who are dictating to the rest of the country. Do you really think that all the 'redress the issues of Maori cash/land/etc grants' are actually going to the rank'n'file? What's happening here is the creation and further development of a system whereby Maori get to run themselves, paid for by the rest of us, yet all that cash seldom gets beyond the relative few that are driving this shit. And the few who genuinely want to make a difference, do things like build and set up some sort of facility for the benefit of their people, like what happened in Ngaruawahia...well, enough said.
Giving Maori the means to control their own destiny (said with tongue in cheek), when it's paid for by others, simply further entrenches what exists now. Look at how successful Maori individuals are in Oz. There are no handouts for them there, there are no tribal demarcations, there are no 'ancestral rights'. They simply have to get on with things for themselves. Just like anyone else.
I reckon the only thing that will work is by removing every crutch available to them exclusively, so they are no different to anyone else.
And send all the ragheads back where they came from too...:whistle:

[duckonin]

well, then again it wasnt the black who enslaved the white....so i guess....is it all just abit of kharma? lol.

But yes, that is true, if you are a 'minority' you'll be able to claim. asians cant claim in NZ can they? im pretty sure its only the maoris and pollies? or was it just the maoris?

Yes you are right it wasn't the blacks who enslaved the whites, the pricks used to eat them, so it was karma on the whites side to enslave them maybe?..:whistle:

[Deano]

Key was on the radio this morning stating that it was NOT a separatist sytem.

He said the handling of the funding would be by a Maori organisation, but available to ALL who need it.

Whether this is the truth or just spin who knows.

[Dave Lobster]

Whether this is the truth or just spin who knows.

Oh, I think we do... :(

[StoneY]

Smell like aparthied to me....oops did I say that aloud?

Damn!

[Deano]

Oh, I think we do... :(

Another Tui ad eh.

[Tank]

Key was on the radio this morning stating that it was NOT a separatist sytem.

He said the handling of the funding would be by a Maori organisation, but available to ALL who need it.

Whether this is the truth or just spin who knows.

Why should the organisation supporting ALL be limited just to Maori - would it not be best to get the best people for the job?

[Deano]

Why should the organisation supporting ALL be limited just to Maori - would it not be best to get the best people for the job?

I totally agree. But that's what I heard on the radio.

Maybe "they" are the best people for the job, given their vast experience with the welfare system.

I'm joking....sort of...;)

[Dave Lobster]

Maybe "they" are the best people for the job, given their vast experience with the welfare system.


You mean kinda like set a thief to catch a thief?

[Mr Merde]

Yes you are right it wasn't the blacks who enslaved the whites, the pricks used to eat them, so it was karma on the whites side to enslave them maybe?..:whistle:

I think you will find that slavery out of Africa was predominately instigated by other treibes selling off prisoners to Arab traders who shipped them to ports where the European races were amongst the many who then purchased slaves.

It wasnt the whites that enslaved the blacks but the blacks that did. The whites just provided a larger market.

Also wasnt slavery a common practice here in NZ prior to and following the arrival of the European?

[SMOKEU]

I didn't realise it was that bad in everyday SA! No wonder there have been so many white south africans lately in NZ. Not that I'm complaining, they all seem to be good people. I know it happens in other parts of africa, but are white SA'ers being forced out of their farms and residences by black africans, in any parts of south africa as well?

The big cities are the worst in terms of violence. The smaller towns are nowhere near as bad. White farmers sometimes get forced off their farms by gangs of black people.

[StoneY]

Also wasnt slavery a common practice here in NZ prior to and following the arrival of the European?

Evidence please?

Slavery was long abolished in British ruled lands before we ever arrived here

Dont mean it wasnt happening elsewhere (such as the Cook Islanders lured and sold by Missionaries to the Brazilian Copper Mine owners) and yes it was still in existence in the States.....

Any proof? (of it happening here)

[MSTRS]

Evidence please?


Any proof? (of it happening here)

If you look at pre-European Maori history, slavery was endemic here amongst the tribes.

[crazyhorse]

WTF!!! I can't believe this bullshit!:mad::mad:

[Mr Merde]

http://www.3news.co.nz/Historian-embarks-on-first-NZ-study-of-slavery/tabid/423/articleID/124461/cat/496/Default.aspx

"Thu, 08 Oct 2009 6:30a.m.

Auckland historian Hazel Petrie is mounting the first in-depth study of slavery in New Zealand.

Dr Petrie said today that war captives or "slaves" made up as much as 50 percent of the Maori population in the early nineteenth century but had been given little attention by academics.

She is taking up a $300,000 Marsden Fund grant, over three years, to investigate the purpose and function of war captives in Maori society.

Dr Petrie said there were apparently contradictory accounts of the status and role of Maori slaves, both before and after European contact.

Large numbers of war captives were released from the late 1820s.

But Moriori on the Chathams, enslaved by Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama from Taranaki in 1835, were not officially released from slavery until 1863, 23 years after the Treaty of Waitangi was signed.

Targets of her research include marriage between slaves and "free" Maori, and the rights of captives and their descendants.

Dr Petrie wants to know whether captives were taken for spiritual, political, or economic reasons, and whether they were treated differently according to their rank or gender.

The author of Chiefs of Industry, a history of Maori tribal enterprises in colonial New Zealand, Dr Petrie is also looking at the extent to which enslavement deprived individuals of their mana or personal tapu . In one rare case, a slave captured as a child and released at the age of about 20, in 1795, became Te Whaharoa, one of the nation's greatest war chiefs.

"Slavery" was an emotive term, and English terms such as "slave" might not have an exact equivalent Maori meaning, she said. It was possible that slaves and war captive should be seen as distinct social or economic institutions, unique to their own society."

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:zwA42Y8K4a4J:www.hrc.co.nz/hrc/worddocs/3%2520-%2520Mr%2520I%2520Parker%2520-%252021%2520Aug%252005v2.doc+Maori+slavery&cd=60&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

After migrating to New Zealand, estimated between 800 - 1300ad, Maori began to systemically wipe out the abundant food source that was the Moa, times got hard and they as many cultures before them also chose not to share; triggering fortification, tribal warfare and slavery, with human flesh becoming the largest available source of protein, it became a source of food as it had in many other societies in the world where meat eaters migrated to countries where protein was in short supply.

In 1769 when Cook announced New Zealand to the wider world England was not interested in colonizing the place but so called “enterprising” businessmen came sniffing for capital gain opportunities. When they got here they found willing and able trading partners who soon began to use the new food sources and modern technologies, especially muskets, to continue there own imperialist ambitions and tribal factional fighting.

This evolved into a forty year civil war among Maori that went beyond greed and power as famous Maori leaders Hongi Hika, Te Wherowhero, Te Rauparaha etc took there iwi's on massive raids that could be described as nothing else but sheer blood-lust with slavery, cannibalism and shrunken head trading being a normal part of tribal life.The most conservative estimate is that this left 20,000 Maori dead and many in slavery. With the unruly elements of Maori and European in complete and utter lawless anarchy and the French, who had a huge reputation for violence beyond the norm around the globe, also announced interest in colonizing various separate areas of New Zealand.

It was at this time that sufficient numbers from both sides came to an agreement in 1840 to introduce the umbrella of the rule of law that treats every citizen in common to promote the ideals of collective common good and create peaceful long-term stability, very importantly slavery had been abolished in European society in 1833

[phred]

I thought we protested against another country doing this shit back in the '80's?

I belong to the biggest tribe ion NZ The Ngati Honky's. I think it's time we got our claim in.

[Juzz976]

I'm so over this country right now, they should not only make Moari responsible for paying their own welfare system. They should also have their own prisons and pay for the upkeep of their own prisoners.

I know this would unfair on the Moari who work and don't commit crimes but maybe then they'll stand up for their rights and tell all the scum Moari to f@*% off so the country can be run fairly.
We all know that its a minoroty of the Moari who are claiming(not sharing with all Moari) and not contributing to society, just need the majority of Moari to realise this and do something about it.

[Mr Merde]

I thought we protested against another country doing this shit back in the '80's?

I belong to the biggest tribe ion NZ The Ngati Honky's. I think it's time we got our claim in.

If you are a middle aged, hetrosexual, middle class, employed, European descent male you have absolutely no chance as you happen to belong to the least represented most heavily taxed group in the country and as such every other b'stard is living off your back

[duckonin]

http://www.3news.co.nz/Historian-embarks-on-first-NZ-study-of-slavery/tabid/423/articleID/124461/cat/496/Default.aspx

"Thu, 08 Oct 2009 6:30a.m.

Auckland historian Hazel Petrie is mounting the first in-depth study of slavery in New Zealand.

Dr Petrie said today that war captives or "slaves" made up as much as 50 percent of the Maori population in the early nineteenth century but had been given little attention by academics.

She is taking up a $300,000 Marsden Fund grant, over three years, to investigate the purpose and function of war captives in Maori society.

Dr Petrie said there were apparently contradictory accounts of the status and role of Maori slaves, both before and after European contact.

Large numbers of war captives were released from the late 1820s.

But Moriori on the Chathams, enslaved by Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama from Taranaki in 1835, were not officially released from slavery until 1863, 23 years after the Treaty of Waitangi was signed.

Targets of her research include marriage between slaves and "free" Maori, and the rights of captives and their descendants.

Dr Petrie wants to know whether captives were taken for spiritual, political, or economic reasons, and whether they were treated differently according to their rank or gender.

The author of Chiefs of Industry, a history of Maori tribal enterprises in colonial New Zealand, Dr Petrie is also looking at the extent to which enslavement deprived individuals of their mana or personal tapu . In one rare case, a slave captured as a child and released at the age of about 20, in 1795, became Te Whaharoa, one of the nation's greatest war chiefs.

"Slavery" was an emotive term, and English terms such as "slave" might not have an exact equivalent Maori meaning, she said. It was possible that slaves and war captive should be seen as distinct social or economic institutions, unique to their own society."

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:zwA42Y8K4a4J:www.hrc.co.nz/hrc/worddocs/3%2520-%2520Mr%2520I%2520Parker%2520-%252021%2520Aug%252005v2.doc+Maori+slavery&cd=60&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

After migrating to New Zealand, estimated between 800 - 1300ad, Maori began to systemically wipe out the abundant food source that was the Moa, times got hard and they as many cultures before them also chose not to share; triggering fortification, tribal warfare and slavery, with human flesh becoming the largest available source of protein, it became a source of food as it had in many other societies in the world where meat eaters migrated to countries where protein was in short supply.

In 1769 when Cook announced New Zealand to the wider world England was not interested in colonizing the place but so called “enterprising” businessmen came sniffing for capital gain opportunities. When they got here they found willing and able trading partners who soon began to use the new food sources and modern technologies, especially muskets, to continue there own imperialist ambitions and tribal factional fighting.

This evolved into a forty year civil war among Maori that went beyond greed and power as famous Maori leaders Hongi Hika, Te Wherowhero, Te Rauparaha etc took there iwi's on massive raids that could be described as nothing else but sheer blood-lust with slavery, cannibalism and shrunken head trading being a normal part of tribal life.The most conservative estimate is that this left 20,000 Maori dead and many in slavery. With the unruly elements of Maori and European in complete and utter lawless anarchy and the French, who had a huge reputation for violence beyond the norm around the globe, also announced interest in colonizing various separate areas of New Zealand.

It was at this time that sufficient numbers from both sides came to an agreement in 1840 to introduce the umbrella of the rule of law that treats every citizen in common to promote the ideals of collective common good and create peaceful long-term stability, very importantly slavery had been abolished in European society in 1833

So apart from using $300g I wonder what DR Petriem is going to achieve,apart form being $300g better off. Historians another form of bludger, for at the end of the day WHO CARES!! It has all been written before, so she is only going to read another book and write her own subjective view on the matter...Scientists, Historians, Doctors, yes they have all caused their share of trouble in this world....:argh:

[Okey Dokey]

What a bloody depressing thread. I am starting to believe we really do have the most useless politicians in the world; I already think MMP is the most useless system going.

Think I'll head out and do some work in the veggie garden to clear my mind and be happy.

[Mr Merde]

....
Think I'll head out and do some work in the veggie garden to clear my mind and be happy.

What a very good idea.

[StoneY]

If you look at pre-European Maori history, slavery was endemic here amongst the tribes.

Ah now that I can believe, I guess I didnt really give it a lot of thought
I assumed we were being accused of enslaving the natives......my bad

[Genie]

Geez, the more i read here the more alarmed I become. WTF, is happening to New Zealand.

[crazyhorse]

What happened to equality ?

[MSTRS]

What happened to equality ?

Have we ever had it? Sometimes, it's a state of mind...and maybe we only thought we had it. Perhaps we were deluding ourselves? But I sure preferred those days to now, as far as what seems fair goes.

[crazyhorse]

Have we ever had it? Sometimes, it's a state of mind...and maybe we only thought we had it. Perhaps we were deluding ourselves? But I sure preferred those days to now, as far as what seems fair goes.

I'm with you on that one :yes:

If you're coloured, we'll help you get a job, go to university, give you fish, land, money, get into Parliament and slang off the white people, who have taught you to eat food, not people, shoes, clothes, jobs, money, houses..... blah blah blah.

This Country is fucked! :done:

[mashman]

Geez, the more i read here the more alarmed I become. WTF, is happening to New Zealand.

politicians believe that they're acting in the country's best interests... divide and conquer

[MSTRS]

If you're coloured, we'll help you get a job, go to university, give you fish, land, money, get into Parliament and slang off the white people, who have taught you to eat food, not people, shoes, clothes, jobs, money, houses..... blah blah blah.



It could be as simple as the human analogy...
Maori were put back to dependent babyhood once their village/tribal system was essentially disbanded by Europeans. Now they are starting to grow up again...but they've only reached the 'terrible twos'...

[steve_t]

What happened to equality ?

Never had it. Sorry to repeat myself but The Treaty of Waitangi promises maori equity, not equality. To over-simplify, that's equal outcomes, not equal opportunities

[crazyhorse]

Never had it. Sorry to repeat myself but The Treaty of Waitangi promises maori equity, not equality. To over-simplify, that's equal outcomes, not equal opportunities


I still say blah blah blah what utter crap :Playnice:

[crazyhorse]

It could be as simple as the human analogy...
Maori were put back to dependent babyhood once their village/tribal system was essentially disbanded by Europeans. Now they are starting to grow up again...but they've only reached the 'terrible twos'...

Now that's worth having a giggle over :laugh:

[ManDownUnder]

...anyone consider the question it might actually work?

... just chucking it out there. I love the kiwi "IT'LL FAIL!" before it's tried approach. So reliable... and so uplifting now it's Christmas.

[ManDownUnder]

Never had it. Sorry to repeat myself but The Treaty of Waitangi promises maori equity, not equality. To over-simplify, that's equal outcomes, not equal opportunities

Well that's a bad promise then isn't it? I don't want any opportunities (that I may have to take up and lose some of my precious "personal time") if I can get that same comfy lifestyle outcome by investing time on my playstation.

Did I mention I wanted the newest playstation... ? Oh and Sky TV please. Equal outcomes after all.

[Dave Lobster]

What happened to equality ?

Sold it for a handful of muskets and a signature.

[ManDownUnder]

Sold it for a handful of muskets and a signature.

How does one sue their forefathers? I was done by them making promises on my behalf

[crazyhorse]

How does one sue their forefathers? I was done by them making promises on my behalf

ha ha - yeah good comment

[Dave Lobster]

How does one sue their forefathers? I was done by them making promises on my behalf

You don't need to. All you need to do is change the law. There is the will amongst the people to do this. There isn't the spine amongst the political types to do it.

[Genie]

Sold it for a handful of muskets and a signature.

yes and that was over how long ago? So tell me, why does this generation keep paying for the fuck up's of the past!

[Mr Merde]

....... why does this generation keep paying for the fuck up's of the past!

Because we have spent the past 20+ years being told that our ancestors were bad and it is our responsibility to right whatever perceived wrongs they did.

Beit that at the time it was considered a fair and equitable exchange this has nothing to do with how it is perceived by those today who see a chance of making financial gain.

People were not stupid 150 years ago. They could reason and make decisions. We pay because that reasoning is not in keeping with modern thinking and therefore must be by that very fact wrong.

We pay because we dont have the political will to stand up and demand that it stops.

We pay because we can.

[wbks]

Because we have spent the past 20+ years being told that our ancestors were bad and it is our responsibility to right whatever perceived wrongs they did.

Beit that at the time it was considered a fair and equitable exchange this has nothing to do with how it is perceived by those today who see a chance of making financial gain.

People were not stupid 150 years ago. They could reason and make decisions. We pay because that reasoning is not in keeping with modern thinking and therefore must be by that very fact wrong.

We pay because we dont have the political will to stand up and demand that it stops.

We pay because we can.I think "we" pay because self obsessed politicians are too busy brown nosing trying to ensure they stay in line with the "politically correct, culturally sensitive" viewpoint, so that they don't risk being voted out of parliament or losing public support.

[Genie]

I think "we" pay because self obsessed politicians are too busy brown nosing trying to ensure they stay in line with the "politically correct, culturally sensitive" viewpoint, so that they don't risk being voted out of parliament or losing public support.

"Brown Nosing" pun intended?????

[Dave Lobster]

I think "we" pay because self obsessed politicians are too busy brown nosing trying to ensure they stay in line with the "politically correct, culturally sensitive" viewpoint, so that they don't risk being voted out of parliament or losing public support.

It's a bit fucking late for that!!!

[steve_t]

Well that's a bad promise then isn't it? I don't want any opportunities (that I may have to take up and lose some of my precious "personal time") if I can get that same comfy lifestyle outcome by investing time on my playstation.

Did I mention I wanted the newest playstation... ? Oh and Sky TV please. Equal outcomes after all.

I agree 100%. Blame the monarchy... or better yet, get NZ to become a republic and truly relegate the treaty to the history books.
I always find it funny when they say certain groups are disproportionately over-represented in crime stats and poor health stats. Could it be because these larger proportions of these certain groups are constantly CHOOSING to break into houses and stealing shit? Or choosing to eat unhealthy takeaway food 7 nights a week?

[oldrider]

Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain, listen as it breaks my heart etc etc! :whistle:

Somehow I think I have read all this here (KB) before!

The nation will go out and return all these political leeches again next time round and argue, fight and defend their right to do it! :girlfight: Result? Same ol same old!

And the beat goes on! :mad: ........cynical? yes! Am I right? Unfortunately, Yes! :oi-grr:

[Mr Merde]

..... ........cynical? yes! Am I right? Unfortunately, Yes! :oi-grr:

Unfortunately a growing number of us are of a similar feeling.

[wbks]

Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain, listen as it breaks my heart etc etc! :whistle:

Somehow I think I have read all this here (KB) before!

The nation will go out and return all these political leeches again next time round and argue, fight and defend their right to do it! :girlfight: Result? Same ol same old!

And the beat goes on! :mad: ........cynical? yes! Am I right? Unfortunately, Yes! :oi-grr:got a better idea?


"Brown Nosing" pun intended?????Yes, but I also meant what I said in the regular sense of the saying

[ManDownUnder]

got a better idea?

Treaty flambe with a Constitutional chaser

[Maha]

...anyone consider the question it might actually work?

... just chucking it out there. I love the kiwi "IT'LL FAIL!" before it's tried approach. So reliable... and so uplifting now it's Christmas.

Please Ned, not the place to be sensible.


Well that's a bad promise then isn't it? I don't want any opportunities (that I may have to take up and lose some of my precious "personal time") if I can get that same comfy lifestyle outcome by investing time on my playstation.

Did I mention I wanted the newest playstation... ? Oh and Sky TV please. Equal outcomes after all.


You may have to go to prison for that special 'equality' moment.

[ManDownUnder]

You may have to go to prison for that special 'equality' moment.

True - I can't be arsed cooking Christmas dinner. I want Ham and Chick and Turkey and peas and roast veg, all cooked for me, and cleaned up afterwards before retiring to watch Sky telly on the plasma.

Is that available in all the suites or only high security

[avgas]

We still have Maori here?

[Maha]

True - I can't be arsed cooking Christmas dinner. I want Ham and Chick and Turkey and peas and roast veg, all cooked for me, and cleaned up afterwards before retiring to watch Sky telly on the plasma.

Is that available in all the suites or only high security

Cant say I have first hand knowledge of the 'wheres and who knows' within the prison system but what I will say is, ''why the hell would anyone want to escape once inside''?

[wbks]

Treaty flambe with a Constitutional chaser

Maybe that would be better than the lame treaty we have, but I can't shake images of people in 50 years time screaming for the same treatment with the "its un constitutional" line. Whats to say the dickheads/politicians that would make this constitution wouldn't make the same mistakes?

[avgas]

Geez, the more i read here the more alarmed I become. WTF, is happening to New Zealand.
We are a country of individuals.
You can never change the world, only yourself.
Look at those that had access to the system, ignored it, and moved on. They are now better off for it. It is unfortunate that there are those who feel that people have been mistreated. However do not get confused - the people out there fighting for this are not black, they are white.
Name the last Maori person who fought for such matters and succeeded. There is a white persons agenda here, I just don't know what it is yet.
National to get Maori vote?

[scumdog]

We still have Maori here?

Yes.
But not complete ones.
But apparently the white/yellow/whatever component doesn't count.

[wbks]

National to get Maori vote?Tino Rangatinotanga flag flying next to the NZ flag/refusal to show any disapproval over the Maori party when their MP's play up, and now this... What other agenda?

[Mr Merde]

Tino Rangatinotanga flag flying next to the NZ flag/refusal to show any disapproval over the Maori party when their MP's play up, and now this... What other agenda?

What sort of fuss if someone posted a video on youtube of this flag being blasted with a shotgun, spat on and burnt?

Any volunteers?

[wbks]

What sort of fuss if someone posted a video on youtube of this flag being blasted with a shotgun, spat on and burnt?

Any volunteers?Ask in the Road Knights thread:lol:
Seriously, though, I wouldn't be surprised if some National Front types did just that on Waitangi day, I'm not sure if it'll end up on video, though. What was the original message behind defiling the flag?

[avgas]

Yes.
But not complete ones.
But apparently the white/yellow/whatever component doesn't count.

Lol
"Here is my son Tahi, he's a Maori cross, makes him a good fighter"

[ManDownUnder]

Maybe that would be better than the lame treaty we have, but I can't shake images of people in 50 years time screaming for the same treatment with the "its un constitutional" line. Whats to say the dickheads/politicians that would make this constitution wouldn't make the same mistakes?

They are functionally different documents.

A treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty) is an agreement by which parties formalise the terms of... let's say ... living together. Sadly the ToW is fundamentally flawed in as far as the English copy don't mean the same ans the Maori copy. Therefore we actually have TWO contracts... formalising areas where we disagree on how we will live together.

GREAT for lawyers to use for revenue generating purposes and the aggreived party to come back to the state tit when they need to.

A constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution) is a set of rules for governing a country.

I prefer the latter if we're going to use a document as the basis for... let's just say... governing a country

[MSTRS]

...anyone consider the question it might actually work?

... just chucking it out there. I love the kiwi "IT'LL FAIL!" before it's tried approach. So reliable... and so uplifting now it's Christmas.

Going on past performance, what makes you think that any system of giving Maori money to sort their shit out will work?

[Indiana_Jones]

What a joke.

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

Going on past performance, what makes you think that any system of giving Maori money to sort their shit out will work?

My faith in society's ability to evolve over time, learn a few lessons and coming up with something workable eventually. Historic failures don't equate to something being impossible.

And while being somewhat of a cynic of the pending success in respect of this latest offering, I'm open to being proven wrong, indeed I hope to be.

[MSTRS]

My faith in society's ability to evolve over time, learn a few lessons and coming up with something workable eventually. Historic failures don't equate to something being impossible.

And while being somewhat of a cynic of the pending success in respect of this latest offering, I'm open to being proven wrong, indeed I hope to be.

Let's go back to the human analogy...
You have 10 kids. You give each of them a lolly. Each kid gets to eat their lolly. And then come back for more.
Now...this scenario....
You have 10 kids. You give one of them 10 lollies to share out with the other nine. The kid has 1 mate amongst the nine, so he shares the lollies with him. 8 kids get nothing.
So, 8 kids come back to you, howling cos they missed out.
Because you see that what's happened is unfair, you hand those 8 kids another 8 lollies individually.
Everyone got a lolly, but it cost you more lollies than it did before.
THAT is how it works.

[ManDownUnder]

Let's go back to the human analogy...
You have 10 kids. You give each of them a lolly. Each kid gets to eat their lolly. And then come back for more.
Now...this scenario....
You have 10 kids. You give one of them 10 lollies to share out with the other nine. The kid has 1 mate amongst the nine, so he shares the lollies with him. 8 kids get nothing.
So, 8 kids come back to you, howling cos they missed out.
Because you see that what's happened is unfair, you hand those 8 kids another 8 lollies individually.
Everyone got a lolly, but it cost you more lollies than it did before.
THAT is how it works.

Then the person setting it up either needs their head read or if they did a good job and the outcome is inescapable you rule it out as a viable option. And no -no extra lollies. Handing them out simply fuels the illbegotten system. They all need to suffer together.

What if the one kid is wisely chosen, convinces the kids they could sell their lollies at a profit and buy other neat stuff that they preferred anyway?

[P38]

They are functionally different documents.

A treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty) is an agreement by which parties formalise the terms of... let's say ... living together. Sadly the ToW is fundamentally flawed in as far as the English copy don't mean the same ans the Maori copy. Therefore we actually have TWO contracts... formalising areas where we disagree on how we will live together.

GREAT for lawyers to use for revenue generating purposes and the aggreived party to come back to the state tit when they need to.

A constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution) is a set of rules for governing a country.

I prefer the latter if we're going to use a document as the basis for... let's just say... governing a country

I believe there are several Maori copies of the TOW which say different things.
And lets not forget not all maori signed either.

There in lies our problem of this never ending story.

Our kids will be paying for this for generations infinitum.

[ManDownUnder]

I believe there are several Maori copies of the TOW which say different things.
And lets not forget not all maori signed either.

There in lies our problem of this never ending story.

Our kids will be paying for this for generations infinitum.

so what we need is a sacrficial government.

Vote me in. My election promise is to focus solely on the abolition of the TOW with a view to replacing it with a constitution... not touching ANY other legislation... then getting the fuck out of office with a spcific request for no perks, no travel, nor airfares and no retirement benefits of any way shape or fomr.

What's more I will call another election immediately upon the passage of the "Treaty of Waitangi Abolition Act 2010"

[P38]

so what we need is a sacrficial government.

Vote me in. My election promise is to focus solely on the abolition of the TOW with a view to replacing it with a constitution... not touching ANY other legislation... then getting the fuck out of office with a spcific request for no perks, no travel, nor airfares and no retirement benefits of any way shape or fomr.

What's more I will call another election immediately upon the passage of the "Treaty of Waitangi Abolition Act 2010"

Now your talking!!!!

You got my vote!

[ManDownUnder]

Now your talking!!!!

You got my vote!

Sorry - one thing I will need is a secure place in Witness protection.... Just a hunch

[MSTRS]

Sorry - one thing I will need is a secure place in Witness protection.... Just a hunch

There could be a spot on a farm in Zimbabwe...safe as houses, mate, and miles away from those that would want their pound...

[MSTRS]

Then the person setting it up either needs their head read or if they did a good job and the outcome is inescapable you rule it out as a viable option. And no -no extra lollies. Handing them out simply fuels the illbegotten system. They all need to suffer together.

The hard-done-by 8 will just go the Grandma (UN) complaining about their human rights being ignored...Grandma knows how to deal with you. She's had LOTS of practice...


What if the one kid is wisely chosen, convinces the kids they could sell their lollies at a profit and buy other neat stuff that they preferred anyway?Neat stuff? What - like beer, pokies, TAB accounts? Hell - some of them might even get to see the Eiffel Tower, eh boi?

[ManDownUnder]

The hard-done-by 8 will just go the Grandma (UN) complaining about their human rights being ignored...Grandma knows how to deal with you. She's had LOTS of practice...
And they will be encouraged to take the 2 guilty kids to the UN.


Neat stuff? What - like beer, pokies, TAB accounts? Hell - some of them might even get to see the Eiffel Tower, eh boi?

Having learned under the man... I would give this guy (http://www.huitaumata.com/about/board/Pages/NgatataLove.aspx) significant influence over the use of such funds.

I have a ton of respect for him and would expect considerable benefits (excuse the terrible pun) to flow forth

[Deano]

We are a country of individuals.
You can never change the world, only yourself.
Look at those that had access to the system, ignored it, and moved on. They are now better off for it. It is unfortunate that there are those who feel that people have been mistreated. However do not get confused - the people out there fighting for this are not black, they are white.
Name the last Maori person who fought for such matters and succeeded. There is a white persons agenda here, I just don't know what it is yet.
National to get Maori vote?\

It is not a colour issue bro. What's with the 'colour' thing ?
Are you using colour as an analogy or something ? My wife and kids are part Maori but whiter than I am in summer.

I'm sick of hearing about colours to be honest.

[MSTRS]

And they will be encouraged to take the 2 guilty kids to the UN.



Having learned under the man... I would give this guy (http://www.huitaumata.com/about/board/Pages/NgatataLove.aspx) significant influence over the use of such funds.

I have a ton of respect for him and would expect considerable benefits (excuse the terrible pun) to flow forth

Hey - don't get me wrong - if something can work better than what we have now, then great.
Please forgive my scepticism...history (esp recent) tells me that greedy, nepotistic, tribal affiliations will not allow it to work.

[Deano]

\

It is not a colour issue bro. What's with the 'colour' thing ?
Are you using colour as an analogy or something ? My wife and kids are part Maori but whiter than I am in summer.

I'm sick of hearing about colours to be honest.

Should I put my kids out there for every grant, scholarship etc that is out there for the taking ?

I see our family as middle class NZers, (average Kiwis) but simply because my wife and kids have Maori blood, should we "jump on the gravy train" ?

One "Maori" person I spoke to about this said it's not about a gravy train, simply what we are entitled to.

What the fuck does that mean ?

My wife and I both grew up in middle class, KIWI families and cultures.

My wife has done better financially than I have and she is part Maori, not me.....so.....WTF ?

Life's what you make it.

[wbks]

Should I put my kids out there for every grant, scholarship etc that is out there for the taking ?

I see our family as middle class NZers, (average Kiwis) but simply because my wife and kids have Maori blood, should we "jump on the gravy train" ?

One "Maori" person I spoke to about this said it's not about a gravy train, simply what we are entitled to.

What the fuck does that mean ?

My wife and I both grew up in middle class, KIWI families and cultures.

My wife has done better financially than I have and she is part Maori, not me.....so.....WTF ?

Life's what you make it.
If someones white kids were offered more oportunities than yours because of their race, wouldn't you be slightly bitter? Life IS what you make of it, but for some, there is more of "IT" to "make"

[Deano]

I don't want to play the race card in order to get my kids more advantages than anyone else, particularly when I think that we are doing pretty well thank you very much.

I think that is just bullshit.

[BikerDazz]

I've been working in the social service field for some years.
As a white male I can honestly say that Maori clients that I have worked with have voiced their preference for working with me rather than a maori social worker or maori agency - why? because I'm honest, reliable and they know I do my job to the best of my ability.

Frankly, maori agencies or workers, although not all, don't deliver what they say they will. There's often a lot of big talk but no action. I have repatetdly seen this phenomenom and heard it a lot from clients.

My concern if the govt funds separtist agencies that those agencies will not be tranparent, will pay themselves well but do fuck all for the people that need the services.

And I wanna know what is happening with all the millions from Treaty settlements. I don't see any of that filtering down to those living in poverty or having major social issues. Again, Maori service users have often voiced the same concern and frustration.

I'm all for equity over equality, where minority groups are given extra support to reach the mainstream but where the hell are the results?

Anyway, fuck it, lets get pissed and forget about it!

[wbks]

I don't want to play the race card in order to get my kids more advantages than anyone else, particularly when I think that we are doing pretty well thank you very much.

I think that is just bullshit.Good for you. I just think everyone should have to work just as hard as the next NZer to get where they are in life, under the same conditions, just like it sounds like you and your family have

[MSTRS]

Life's what you make it.

Too bloody right, it is.

[mashman]

Some people just take what they are entitled to irrespective of the consequences and the segregation of communities only ever seems to end in disaster... could be that it'll work, but wouldn't it be prudent to ask the Maori people and not their political representatives.

Example: I was chattin with a couple of guys from Zim the other day as i watched Liverpool fall apart (one a Chelsea fan, but i forgave him, kinda)... Anyway, darker than night, but brighter than most and they confirmed what a good friend of mine (ex SA cop) has seen. The "blacks" took the farms back because they were told the land was theirs, but weren't taught how to farm. Result, shitloads of farms dissapeared, less food, infertile land, lots and lots of dead people, huge economic faux pas... They left and never want to go back... They're now studying at Strathclyde Uni and want to go back to London... Why? because Glasgow is full of segregation, albeit mainly religious, but that in itself, according to Dixon, has led to racial problems as they see it everywhere, and they just want the next 2 years to hurry up and go by so they can get out...

A culture of segregation only ever seems to breed more segregation and not neccessarily the same segregation that the culture was built upon.

[carver]

Why this is occuring with every govt is because NZ has signed up to the UN race based policies.
of course, the idea is to lower the standard of living, and rule by division.
A revoloution would be a good start, and let NZ govern as NZ sees fit, instead of jumping through everyone elses hoops.

anyone keen?

elect me as leader.

[Pussy]

anyone keen?

elect me as leader.

You'd be the first lady, wouldn't you? :whistle:

[carver]

some may disagree, but anyone who calls NZ home is a kiwi in my eyes.
One race of people in NZ.
Jeez, even the chinese have been here since the 1800's as have some of the indians.

One nation

One people

One law

[mashman]

Vote me in. My election promise is to focus solely on the abolition of the TOW with a view to replacing it with a constitution... not touching ANY other legislation... then getting the fuck out of office with a spcific request for no perks, no travel, nor airfares and no retirement benefits of any way shape or fomr.

What's more I will call another election immediately upon the passage of the "Treaty of Waitangi Abolition Act 2010"

Could you also introduce custodial sentences for MP's, ministers and the Prime Minister for acting in a very very silly manner... it'll be like being back at private school, but with completely different rules...

[Pussy]

some may disagree, but anyone who calls NZ home is a kiwi in my eyes.
One race of people in NZ.
Jeez, even the chinese have been here since the 1800's as have some of the indians.

One nation

One people

One law

Shit!! I agree with you!! (that would be a first!)
None of us had ANY choice as to what we were born as (race etc)
We do have a choice to be NZers.
Life is what you make of it.... and I personally don't bloody care what colour/race my fellow kiwis are

[ManDownUnder]

Could you also introduce custodial sentences for MP's, ministers and the Prime Minister for acting in a very very silly manner... it'll be like being back at private school, but with completely different rules...

no - abolition of the ToW is the one and only agenda

[carver]

Shit!! I agree with you!! (that would be a first!)
None of us had ANY choice as to what we were born as (race etc)
We do have a choice to be NZers.
Life is what you make of it.... and I personally don't bloody care what colour/race my fellow kiwis are

haha, I have been working my way up in a political party, I used to care a lot more about politics.

Its not a Maori vs the rest issue.

this is about politics and division, that will be forced upon us.

[Pussy]

haha, I have been working my way up in a political party, I used to care a lot more about politics.

Its not a Maori vs the rest issue.

this is about politics and division, that will be forced upon us.

You're probably right! :niceone:

[wbks]

haha, I have been working my way up in a political party, I used to care a lot more about politics.

Its not a Maori vs the rest issue.

this is about politics and division, that will be forced upon us.That libertarian group you posted a while ago? Good luck to you.

[XRVrider]

Right, so if NZer's are not equal, someone start the European or Caucasian Party, just need someone with equal rights thoughts (no nationalist party shit), and the gift of the gab... I for one will vote for you. Who's up for it?

You only need about 2 seats in parliament and you can shake it up. Jesus, we may even get a few European seats if we start going to court and picking up the dole more regularly. Bring it on cos I cant be fucked trying any more. Churrr.

[mashman]

no - abolition of the ToW is the one and only agenda

You're just the same as them... a bloody one trick pony... Then again, that would also mean that bribary and corruption would be a possibility... you sure i can't offer you something to change your mind??? :lol:

[oldrider]

That libertarian group you posted a while ago? Good luck to you.

Libertarianz, that's where the socialist politicians look to for answers to fix their left wing policy failures! (there are a lot of them)

The trouble is with the electorate being majority socialist, (brain washed from birth), they have to tinker, disguise, or just fuck up the solution, to make it appear like a socialist idea, just to get votes!

Carver is actually on the right (excuse the pun) track! :yes:

[popelli]

A treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty) is an agreement by which parties formalise the terms of... let's say ... living together. Sadly the ToW is fundamentally flawed in as far as the English copy don't mean the same ans the Maori copy. Therefore we actually have TWO contracts... formalising areas where we disagree on how we will live together.



and the version(s) that are touted around are fundamentaly different to what was actually signed anyway - there is another thread about this on this forum


anyway the treaty was with Queen Victoria and did not provide for her successors and as she is no longer blessing us with her pressence the treaty is no longer valid anyway

[Delerium]

A seperatist supporter? You'll be burned mother fucker.

huh? it was a joke.