St Matthew's gives up on it's "offensive" billboard

[Mully]

After three attacks in two days:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10616487


An Auckland Anglican church decided last night to take down its controversial Christmas billboard after an elderly woman slashed it with a knife - the third attack in two days

Not a very Christian response, is it?

I thought they were big on "do not steal" and "turn the other cheek" and whatnot.

[Delerium]

sorta like the rugby heads burning down buildings and making death threats to those that opposed the tour.

[Ronin]

After three attacks in two days:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10616487



Not a very Christian response, is it?

I thought they were big on "do not steal" and "turn the other cheek" and whatnot.

Who said religious fanatics were logical?

[Tink]

Ah well, its made its point, everyone seems to be talking about it... as in papers etc.

Go the church for changing their boring status!!!

[Mully]

Who said religious fanatics were logical?

"Islam, violent? We'll kill you for saying that" sort of thing?

Good point.

[CookMySock]

Who said religious fanatics were logical?Exactly.. Take Katman for example.

Seriously though, thats a surprisingly offensive sign.

Steve

[Ronin]

"Islam, violent? We'll kill you for saying that" sort of thing?

Good point.




linky cos embed isnt working

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZ6-6RbSEg

[Ronin]

Exactly.. Take Katman for example.

Seriously though, thats a surprisingly offensive sign.

Steve

Depends on your level of fanatasism :lol:

I can see how it might be offensive to a believer but mully has a good point about forgivness. All very well to preach it until it applies to you lol.

[rainman]

Seriously though, thats a surprisingly offensive sign.

Aw, c'mon, it's quite funny. Good to see the church having a bit of a larf.

[CookMySock]

I can see how it might be offensive to a believer but mully has a good point about forgivness. All very well to preach it until it applies to you lol.The whole point of their sign was not to celebrate the season, but to insinuate that a thing someone else believes is wrong. If they really wanted to say it was wrong then why not just come out and say it?

I find the visual shocking, but amusing, but I think many would be disgusted.

I don't find the "forgiveness" ethic missing. Sometimes you do have to fight, and when provoked to extremes, I think you will find many people you just never thought had it in them, will just up and fucking sock you one. :2thumbsup

Steve

[Ronin]

The whole point of their sign was not to celebrate the season, but to insinuate that a thing someone else believes is wrong. If they really wanted to say it was wrong then why not just come out and say it?

I find the visual shocking, but amusing, but I think many would be disgusted.

I don't find the "forgiveness" ethic missing. Sometimes you do have to fight, and when provoked to extremes, I think you will find many people you just never thought had it in them, will just up and fucking sock you one. :2thumbsup

Steve

Horses for courses, I doubt the people complaining about this would make a fuss if if was a picture of Buddha in a clown suit. What they really need is some perspective in their lives.

Must make them nervous basing their lives and values on a myth.

[The Pastor]

Horses for courses, I doubt the people complaining about this would make a fuss if if was a picture of Buddha in a clown suit. What they really need is some perspective in their lives.

Must make them nervous basing their lives and values on a myth.
well as far as i can tell the Buddhist's aren't complaining about it now - so whats your point? that its ok to offend someone if not everyone is offended?

[Ronin]

well as far as i can tell the Buddhist's aren't complaining about it now - so whats your point? that its ok to offend someone if not everyone is offended?

I shall type slowly.

I am suggesting that the little old lady who is so offended by the concept of The "virgin" mary getting her end away would not raise an eyebrow if it was another religion being poked fun at.

Instead of Buddha use "insert Deity of choice here"

[slofox]

I thought it was funny as hell meself - but then, I have been told my sense of humour is warped before today...

[Max Headroom]

Horses for courses, I doubt the people complaining about this would make a fuss if if was a picture of Buddha in a clown suit. What they really need is some perspective in their lives.

Must make them nervous basing their lives and values on a myth.

You're welcome to call Christianity a myth if you choose to, and no doubt you've studied religions extensively in order to arrive at that conclusion. What anyone believes is their own concern, and to those who fervently believe in the Great Pumpkin, all power to ya . . .

This billboard is disappointing to believers for a few reasons. Firstly Glynn Cardy, the minister in charge of St Matthews is contradicting one of the cornerstones of the faith he's supposed to believe himself, based on the Bible he's supposed to teach from. Secondly, while it's a witty billboard it's inappropriate and in poor taste in this context. The billboard doesn't reflect the church mocking itself - it is mocking the very reason it exists. In that light, the billboard is no longer funny, it's now a tragic statement of a church losing its way and converting to humanism.

St Matthews isn't alone in contradicting it's own stated beliefs - another central Auckland church recently had a sign prominently displayed in front of the main building calling attention to the 150th anniversary of Charles Darwin's death. A sad lesson in irony here too . . .

Away from the Brian Tamaki's and Glyn Cardy's of this world, there are believers making a worthwhile contribution to society in a quiet way, doing their best for their families & friends and staying out of the spotlight.
Those who chose to deface the billboard did so out of a righteous indignation, which they will presumably face the legal consequences for.

This billboard and the actions of those who have defaced it have received far more attention from the media than it deserved IMHO.

[Bren]

Just my two cents worth...As a believer who was raised as a Catholic I find the Billboard offensive and Blasphemous. Just as well we are not in the middle ages as the clergy of that church would be deemed as Heretics and possibly tortured and killed. ....

[cooneyr]

I'm from a very staunch Roman Catholic family and while my olds would have an issue at this I do not. Why because before the latter part of the of the last century the churches realised that force feeding the teachings of the bible literally to congregations it was better to have a more open discussion on things. My old man is old enough to have been brought up under the old regime which would have been highly offended by things such as the bilboard - nobody would dare question the virginity of Mary.

What I've taken from all the religious ed (apart from primary school all the schools I've been too were catholic) is that the bible contains messages and concepts on how we/society should live/best function. It does not need to be taken literally - think about what it is trying to say.

The billboard is not about Mary not being a virgin at Jesus's conception. The point of the virgin birth is to imply that Jesus is the son of God and is somebody that could show us the way to live. With that in mind the point of the bilboard, to me, is simply that "God is a hard act to follow". If you try to live your life in as holy way as possible it is a hard thing for us humans to do as we all have faults. Accept that and trying to be a better, or more holy, person and your on the right track.

They could have just put "God is a hard act to follow" up in text which is the sort of thing that curches have been doing for many years, but how would that have caught peoples attention?

[cooneyr]

Just my two cents worth...As a believer who was raised as a Catholic I find the Billboard offensive and Blasphemous. Just as well we are not in the middle ages as the clergy of that church would be deemed as Heretics and possibly tortured and killed. ....

Exactly my point we are not in the middle ages and we are more free to think about what is being said rather than "taking it as gospel". What do you think the real message of the bilboard is?

[CookMySock]

Horses for courses, I doubt the people complaining about this would make a fuss if if was a picture of Buddha in a clown suit. What they really need is some perspective in their lives.Everyone already has their own perspective, just you and I do, and like us, they are completely happy with it. If they aren't, they'll change it, just like you are I do.


Must make them nervous basing their lives and values on a myth.No doubt plenty of times in your life already, you have been surprised to discover this thing you previously placed great stead in was actually a complete fantasy, but it isn't your or my job to go around pointing that out to people, and if we did it would just be a matter of time before it was our turn to get socked.

Steve

[YellowDog]

My initial reaction is that the board is in bad taste, but then I can see how it is there to provoke thought and discussion.

Whilst I AM a big fan of the Christmas thing and the strong morals and honesty based code by which to bring your kids up in an attempt to help them be good people; some of you staunchies need to get real about this virgin birth thing.

The modern day religion is sex and and it is being thrust in our faces from all angles (I mean a virtual thrust via the media). I suspect that what the board is trying to say is that the inference that 'The Virgin Mary' was shagged by an omnipresent supreme being is a stupid concept to believe and of course how could poor old Joe compete with that?

The point is that he can't as there was alledgedly no sexual act involved in The Virgin Mary becomming pregnant, Joe would have to compete on a higher spiritual level and not a sexual one.

There are many interpretations of the same thing and we need to remember that it was religious folk whom commissioned this thought provoking non-sexual poster.

Happy Christmas :)

[Mikkel]

Fanatics need to be challenged and provoked on a regular basis.

If we all just roll over and play along, as in the "good" old days, they gain power and influence.

[Forest]

I'm in agreement with the atheists.

There is no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.

[Toaster]

I am a Christian and I took the billboard ad to be more thought provoking rather than offensive.

The billboard appeared to me to be quite witty and clever. God as portrayed would indeed be a hard act to follow, but the core message of the bible is about following him.... or not.

What we choose to do or not do with God is our choice... thank goodness for free will.

[CookMySock]

The modern day religion is sex and and it is being thrust in our faces from all anglesAMEN BROTHER, HALLELUJAH!!! :apint: :apint: :apint:

This is progress!

Steve

[Dave Lobster]

Just my two cents worth...As a believer who was raised as a Catholic I find the Billboard offensive and Blasphemous. Just as well we are not in the middle ages as the clergy of that church would be deemed as Heretics and possibly tortured and killed. ....

How christian is that?!?!

[slofox]

The modern day religion is sex and and it is being thrust in our faces from all angles

I don't mind it being thrust in my face at all! (oops errr I mean...hehehe...) :Oops:

[Dave Lobster]

The modern day religion is sex and and it is being thrust in our faces from all angles (I mean a virtual thrust via the media).

I thought it was 'reality' TV?!?!

[Thaeos]

Eh, none of them are really 'Christian' anyway! There's only ever been one, and he died on the cross....

[The Pastor]

I shall type slowly.

I am suggesting that the little old lady who is so offended by the concept of The "virgin" mary getting her end away would not raise an eyebrow if it was another religion being poked fun at.

Instead of Buddha use "insert Deity of choice here"
well thanks for pointing out that different people like different things

[slowpoke]

There are no christian extremists in NZ (tui)

[p.dath]

What a great plan for us in the ACC debate.

We put up our ACC billboard, and thewn deliberately deface it, and then repeat.

International press coverage huh?

[Tank]

who gives a fuck it people find it offensive - it doesn't give them the right to damage others property.

Gutless fuckers doing it under the cover of darkness - don't have the balls to complain to the people putting it up.

I hope that the church puts a fatwa on their arse.

[kave]

The only problem people have is that it is challenging the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity. I dont believe it is a doctrine universally adapted by Anglicans and as such I dont see the problem with the Anglican church encouraging debate around the idea. The bible seems to be contradictory in regards to Marys perpetual virginity, Protestants believe the bible states that she was only a virgin until the birth of Jesus, wheras the Catholics will excommunicate you if you even indirectly imply that she slept with her husband. On my reading of the bible I felt quite sure that the implication was that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, but translation can alter meaning.

I think the billboard is great, it may encourage more Christians to read the bible. I believe that the more of them that read the bible, the less of them there are. I find it quite amusing that reading the founding document of Christianity is one of the most effective methods of deconversion (judging by the deconversions I have witnessed).

[Maha]

I am a Christian and I took the billboard ad to be more thought provoking rather than offensive.

The billboard appeared to me to be quite witty and clever. God as portrayed would indeed be a hard act to follow, but the core message of the bible is about following him.... or not.

What we choose to do or not do with God is our choice... thank goodness for free will.

Yes indeed he would be a hard act to follow, for wasn't it God that made Heaven and Earth.......in the dark!...:confused:

[Katman]

Exactly.. Take Katman for example.



:tugger:<hgvhgvhjv>

[p.dath]

The only problem people have is that it is challenging the doctrine of Perpetual Virginity.

Religion is way outside of my area of knowledge, but I was under the impression that "virgin" back in year zero meant un-married, as opposed to our modern meaning for a woman of "yet to be penetrated".

So Mary could well have had sex, yet been a virgin.

[kave]

Religion is way outside of my area of knowledge, but I was under the impression that "virgin" back in year zero meant un-married, as opposed to our modern meaning for a woman of "yet to be penetrated".

So Mary could well have had sex, yet been a virgin.

No, the bible clearly states that Mary was a virgin (had not had sex with anyone) until after she conceived Jesus. It is quite clear on that. The problem arises when you try to work out what the bible claims regarding her maintaining virgin status after giving birth to Jesus. Did she sleep with her husband after Jesus was born and were there siblings? It is those questions which are truely difficult to answer (although personally I am on the side of the Protestants interpretation as opposed to the Catholics).

[ManDownUnder]

It's a complex issue and I'm waiting for Bishop Tamariki to confirm what my opinion is.

[ManDownUnder]

So Mary could well have had sex, yet been a virgin.

... so in summary you're suggesting the possibility than an adulteror was chosen by God to carry His son...

I suggest you want for Bishop Tamariki's damnation on that one

[Ixion]

I emailed Glynn Cardy. told him his theology sucked donkey dick, but his billboard was funny. He hasn't replied as yet, but.

If St Jerome could rest the entire Faith on a very bad pun ("Tu es Petrus et super hanc petram " !) then that faith can cope with a billboard.

And , in fact , it is theologically sound, since it explicitly recognises Christ as the Son of God .

[325rocket]

un-married, as opposed to our modern meaning for a woman of "yet to be penetrated".

So Mary could well have had sex, yet been a virgin.


id hit that

[Okey Dokey]

The billboard is typical of the salacious and crass times we live in, in my opinion. Everything gets boiled down to the lowest level possible- ooh, a man in woman in bed! sex!

The "meaning of Christmas"? Give me a break- how could someone look at that and feel like reflecting on the "meaning of Christmas"?

I am not a Christian, and I would find material aimed at Hindus/Jews/*any religion* equally offensive.

[YellowDog]

Religion is way outside of my area of knowledge, but I was under the impression that "virgin" back in year zero meant un-married, as opposed to our modern meaning for a woman of "yet to be penetrated".

So Mary could well have had sex, yet been a virgin.
If that's what your wife told you, then I won't spoil anything :rofl:

The Bible (New Testement) was composed by many and a great deal of time after the facts.

It would look a bit silly if this great prophet and 'King of the Jews' leader was decended from a rapist Roman Centurian, so the son of god story reads a great deal better.

Such details are unimportant. You cannot prove or disprove any of them. We live in a Christian Society and the strongly held beliefs of many should be respected.

[MikeL]

We live in a Christian Society and the strongly held beliefs of many should be respected.
In what way precisely is contemporary New Zealand society "Christian"? A hundred years ago that statement might have made some sense. Today it reflects wishful thinking rather than the reality of people's beliefs and actions.
As for respecting the "strongly held beliefs of many", would you include nazism, emperor-worship and other deviant ideologies, not to mention extreme religious sects?
Full marks to Glynn Cardy for having the courage of his convictions. His liberal Anglicanism may be distasteful to those brought up on conventional Christian doctrines, but his rejection of the fairy-tale of virgin birth and other doctrinal nonsense while maintaining the essential symbolic truths of the Christian message (and yes it is closer to humanism than many are comfortable with) provides an intelligent alternative to the otherwise inevitable destiny facing the Anglican Church: that is, to wither away as its older congregations die off, while the younger, if they can be bothered with religion at all, are seduced by the glitzy glamour of charismatic churches or scared into the embrace of the fundamentalists.
After more than a century of serious, painstaking biblical and historical scholarship, which has brought to light more contradictions, mistakes, mistranslations, suppressions and deliberate distortions in the text than even the most devious or incompetent politician could have managed, how can intellgent people still believe that the Bible is literally the Word of God?