NZ's greatest track rider?

[lanci]

After watching the racing at Puke one Sunday and watching some youtube vids on NZ biking, I've wondered who's NZ's greatest track rider? Aaron Slight springs to mind as he was very successful in a very competitive field. Then the Crafars, Strouds and Harris' spring to mind. Thought's?

[Motu]

Go back a bit further......

[gatch]

Ivan Mauger FTW

dirt track..

[wbks]

Go back a bit further......the boat racer? NZ racings highest achievement if you look at it on paper I guess!

[Big Dave]

http://www.kiwirider.co.nz/pastpolls.html

[woodyracer]

id have to with Aaron slight....its a poty he dosnt race anymore.....


Also andrew stroud is the man, its good he still makes the effort to race and show other riders how its done.

[merv]

Hugh Anderson - 4 world championships over 40 years ago and he's still quick today.

Graeme Crosby - 2 TT Formula 1 world championships (could be argued they weren't real world championships), but his significant wins at Isle of Man, Suzuka, Imola and Daytona plus his results in 500GP 2nd, 5th and 8th, put him at the head of the list of all time Kiwi achievers. I don't think any one has done more except perhaps Hugh because you can add all his Motocross achievements to his road race achievements.

So who really comes close to these two?

I reckon Geoff Perry could have if it wasn't for his untimely death in the air crash of '73.

I don't reckon any others have come close on the road race circuits.

Molloy, Turner, Newcombe, Slight, Stroud and Anstey etc all follow on after the two above. Probably because of the size of sponsorship money these days Kiwis just aren't cracking into the big time any more.

[wbks]

Hugh Anderson - 4 world championships over 40 years ago and he's still quick today.

Graeme Crosby - 2 TT Formula 1 world championships (could be argued they weren't real world championships), but his significant wins at Isle of Man, Suzuka, Imola and Daytona plus his results in 500GP 2nd and 5th, put him at the head of the list of all time Kiwi achievers. I don't think any one has done more except perhaps Hugh because you can add all his Motocross achievements to his road race achievements.

So who really comes close to these two?

I reckon Geoff Perry could have if it wasn't for his untimely death in the air crash of '73.

I don't reckon any others have come close on the road race circuits.

Molloy, Turner, Newcombe, Slight, Stroud and Anstey etc all follow on after the two above. Probably because of the size of sponsorship money these days Kiwis just aren't cracking into the big time any more.But didn't Newcombe get second in the world GP? Maybe his list of achievements isn't as big as you listed for Crosby, but isn't second in the worlds premier road racing class the best NZ has ever done? And he even did it on his own developed bike from a fricken boat motor. THAT is the Kiwi ingenuity/spirit old farmers always rant about. If he didn't die early I'm sure his list would have been much longer

[merv]

But didn't Newcombe get second in the world GP? Maybe his list of achievements isn't as big as you listed for Crosby, but isn't second in the worlds premier road racing class the best NZ has ever done? And he even did it on his own developed bike from a fricken boat motor. THAT is the Kiwi ingenuity/spirit old farmers always rant about. If he didn't die early I'm sure his list would have been much longer

Yeah I certainly rated Newcombe and like Molloy, Turner and Crosby he did get second in the 500's (best by any NZer) and probably could have won that year. However,with his life cut short like Perry's it is hard to say just what he would have achieved.

Hugh and Graeme are still living legends and Hugh still races amazingly well for a fellah in his 70's. Hard to beat that really.

Have you checked out Croz's website here http://www.graemecrosby.com/index.htm

[wbks]

Yeah I certainly rated Newcombe and like Molloy, Turner and Crosby he did get second in the 500's (best by any NZer) and probably could have won that year. However,with his life cut short like Perry's it is hard to say just what he would have achieved.

Hugh and Graeme are still living legends and Hugh still races amazingly well for a fellah in his 70's. Hard to beat that really.

Have you checked out Croz's website here http://www.graemecrosby.com/index.htmYea, but I guess you always have "could have done better/worse if this or that". Kind of silly comparing riders from different eras of racing anyway, I guess?

[Kornholio]

Robert Holden for sheer mongrel :)

[gatch]

http://www.ivanmauger.com/totalresults/

[merv]

http://www.ivanmauger.com/totalresults/

No doubt Mauger was our best speedway rider if that's the track you want to talk about.


Yea, but I guess you always have "could have done better/worse if this or that". Kind of silly comparing riders from different eras of racing anyway, I guess?

That's why I just go by their achievement irrespective of era. They raced against the best of their time with the machinery they had at that time. Sadly our boys don't seem to be able to do it now - money??

[Motu]

Ginger still does pretty well for a guy in his '70's too....or he did.We'll have to see how his recovery goes.And he did come 2nd to Ago...who was a works MV Agusta rider.Ginger was a privateer on a Kawasaki triple that no one else could ride.

Geoff Perry had the greatest potential...we can only guess,but he was good,very good.

[Motu]

No doubt Mauger was our best speedway rider if that's the track you want to talk about.

Yeah but that's only going around in circles in the dirt....doesn't look very hard....

[merv]

Yeah but that's only going around in circles in the dirt....doesn't look very hard....

Like Kenny on the TZ lol :gob: easy as eh!

[pritch]

I have a vague (very) idea that John Hempleman placed in the world champs back in the early 60s?

Part of the problem these days is that NZ just doesn't have sponsors with the financial clout required. Those few we do have would probably not consider motorbikes to be appropriate to their image.

On the other hand there are Australians all over Moto GP and Superbikes like a bloody rash. I'm reluctant to concede the genetic superiority of Australians, so have to consider that they have a better way of bring their talent through.

[Rcktfsh]

Pretty simple really only one nz rider has won
4 world championships (only 11 riders have won more)
25 gp's (next best nz'er 1)
3 iom tt's (in the heyday of the event)
Milazo cup (awarded for the best wet weather ride over all classes in a gp season)
Been responsible for the developement of the suzuki gp team
then after retiring from road racing raced at the top level of world mx developing what was to become the suzuki tm mx bikes.
Placed 2nd overall in an open IOM practice session on a 125 against 125,250,350&500 bikes being over 2 mins a lap faster than ago on the mv.
Won the 1965 european 125 gp by a lap and a half, lapping ginger molley twicw who finished 5th. His race time would have placed him 2nd in the 500 race.

Last spotted at Hampton Downs riding with style a matter of weeks after having brain surgery to remove a non malignant tumour.

[smudge]

I was never any good with history. Hugh Anderson is the man really IMO. A very tidy riding style mind you I've only seen him ride a couple of times, once recently.

Ginger Molloy though, to ride as long and hard as that guy has what a legend, and man can he swill a beer, well at least he could, I presume anyone that can keep a Bultaco going fast has to have some pretty mean vices.

Then there's this guy that used to ride an RZ350 :2thumbsup........

[merv]

Rcktfsh you are definitely on the same wavelength as me with Hugh as the man.

I then said Croz close and all the rest a bit more distant.

Definitely is a money problem these days as I keep saying - how can our boys break that barrier?

[White trash]

Rcktfsh you are definitely on the same wavelength as me with Hugh as the man.

I then said Croz close and all the rest a bit more distant.

Definitely is a money problem these days as I keep saying - how can our boys break that barrier?
With simply, skill, determintion, hard work and self beliefe with a little bit of short term sacrifice.

Don't tell me IRL is an easy nut to crack. And who sits firmly as one of the three to beat?

Case rested. I'm going to bed.

[Big Dave]

Last spotted at Hampton Downs riding with style a matter of weeks after having brain surgery to remove a non malignant tumour.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/kiwirider/4052160889/" title="Hampton Downs Media Day19 by KIWIRIDER, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3529/4052160889_d365327b27.jpg" width="357" height="500" alt="Hampton Downs Media Day19" /></a>

[Motu]

Definitely is a money problem these days as I keep saying - how can our boys break that barrier?

So it was easy for all the others? For a start,they knew about tough times....they won't do it tough these days,that's just too hard man.The bikes are faster,handle better,are more reliable....there are sponsors to pay the way for you instead of saving up the money all by yourself.But,who you know is still more important....so they don't know the right people I suppose....

[slowpoke]

Ya gotta be realistic fella's. Back in the day a comparatively inexperienced rider like Kim Newcombe could build a bike in his shed (Koenig's factory), throw it in the back of his van, enter the world championship and do well.

Nowadays every one of those steps is impossible.

It's no coincidence that the same era saw Bruce McLaren and Jack Brabham doing the same in the F1 world.

Nowadays what they did is also impossible.

But that's why our motocross guys do so well now, 'cos it's still possible to do exactly what those early guys did: carry some of their favourite bits in a suitcase overseas, throw them and a bike in the back of a van and be instantly competitive if they're good enough.

The sheer simplicity and relatively inexpensive costs of those early years made it all so much more doable, as it is in motocross. You didn't need a team of engineers, you didn't need to be a marketable product with an associated viewing audience, you didn't need to bid for World Championship spots etc.

I dunno about the Scott Dixon comparison Jimmy. The money available in car racing is poles apart from the bike scene. 16-18year olds racing $40k formula fords, teenagers in the Porsche Cup, versus......what? Pro twins? Dixon had a team of investors behind him, knowing there was a reasonable chance he'd make some coin racing something somewhere. The chances of the same happening with a bike racer are next to nothing, just check out the number of paid drivers in Australasia vs the paid riders, there's no comparison.

I'd like to think it could happen again but realistically I know it's getting more and more unlikely.

[Kornholio]

So it was easy for all the others? For a start,they knew about tough times....they won't do it tough these days,that's just too hard man.The bikes are faster,handle better,are more reliable....there are sponsors to pay the way for you instead of saving up the money all by yourself.But,who you know is still more important....so they don't know the right people I suppose....

Mate, Can you introduce me to these people cos I need either a better job or Westpac lol.... I hate being medium wage earner :(.........

[jellywrestler]

Percy Coleman

[White trash]

I dunno about the Scott Dixon comparison Jimmy. The money available in car racing is poles apart from the bike scene. 16-18year olds racing $40k formula fords, teenagers in the Porsche Cup, versus......what? Pro twins? Dixon had a team of investors behind him, knowing there was a reasonable chance he'd make some coin racing something somewhere. The chances of the same happening with a bike racer are next to nothing, just check out the number of paid drivers in Australasia vs the paid riders, there's no comparison.

Investors? Sure. But what a bloody huge risk. Takes a hell of a lot of faith to back someone to that extent. Cracking the American racing scene WITHOUT the surname Andretti, Penske, Petty or the like. And to do it coming from NZ? Unheard of.

[avgas]

Steve Millen
Rhys Millen
Bruce McLaren
are the best in my books about racers

Best riders would have to be the King's.

Track rider is a little more difficult in my book as there are so many good ones. Possibly Newcombe.

[puddy]

Pretty simple really only one nz rider has won
4 world championships (only 11 riders have won more)
25 gp's (next best nz'er 1)
3 iom tt's (in the heyday of the event)
Milazo cup (awarded for the best wet weather ride over all classes in a gp season)
Been responsible for the developement of the suzuki gp team
then after retiring from road racing raced at the top level of world mx developing what was to become the suzuki tm mx bikes.
Placed 2nd overall in an open IOM practice session on a 125 against 125,250,350&500 bikes being over 2 mins a lap faster than ago on the mv.
Won the 1965 european 125 gp by a lap and a half, lapping ginger molley twicw who finished 5th. His race time would have placed him 2nd in the 500 race.

Last spotted at Hampton Downs riding with style a matter of weeks after having brain surgery to remove a non malignant tumour.
Sorry, it's still a little unclear. Is that Raj, carver, or Crazy Steve?

[insomnia01]

Robert Holden or Bob Toomey for me... I remember watching these fellas at the Castrol series at Manfield & Boxing day racing Whanganui :2thumbsup:2thumbsup Its a pity BT didn't carry on who knows where he may have ended up, he was certainly fast on what ever he rode

[slowpoke]

Investors? Sure. But what a bloody huge risk. Takes a hell of a lot of faith to back someone to that extent. Cracking the American racing scene WITHOUT the surname Andretti, Penske, Petty or the like. And to do it coming from NZ? Unheard of.

Oh yeah, nothing against Dixon, he's done incredibly well to not just get to the top in the US but to stay there. A hugely talented/determined guy, no question.

I just think it's more difficult for a bike racer to emulate what he's done. The prospects of making a living off racing muddersickles aren't so rosy with feck all paid positions world wide, so the chances of investors banding together to back a bike racer are similarly slim no matter how talented the rider is especially when you consider the risk of injury to their investment.

[slowpoke]

D'oh! Goddamn double post.....I'm as good on the 'net as I am on a bike, which is to say not very.....

[slowpoke]

Robert Holden or Bob Toomey for me... I remember watching these fellas at the Castrol series at Manfield & Boxing day racing Whanganui :2thumbsup:2thumbsup Its a pity BT didn't carry on who knows where he may have ended up, he was certainly fast on what ever he rode

Are some of you guys confusing your favourite riders with the best riders?

It's like looking at Matt Mladin in the 'States; I reckon he was a truly world class Superbike champion but having stuck to the AMA rather than strutting his stuff on the international stage his achievements can't be ranked alongside the guys who made the jump.

The same goes for our local champions, you can't really compare racing at Wanganui with international/world championships. You might have enjoyed watching them but they weren't racing the best in the world.

[roogazza]

Are some of you guys confusing your favourite riders with the best riders?

It's like looking at Matt Mladin in the 'States; I reckon he was a truly world class Superbike champion but having stuck to the AMA rather than strutting his stuff on the international stage his achievements can't be ranked alongside the guys who made the jump.

The same goes for our local champions, you can't really compare racing at Wanganui with international/world championships. You might have enjoyed watching them but they weren't racing the best in the world.

At least if it's like last year Slowpoke, you can (and will ) rock up to 5 meetings in NZ's national series and probably get a top ten finish.
Its never been easier, I hope you agree ? G.

[pritch]

So it was easy for all the others? For a start,they knew about tough times....they won't do it tough these days,that's just too hard man..

There is some truth in that. In the 60s though riders from the Commonwealth had a good run in the World Championships. The British riders tended to be involved in their own short circuit series.

Rather than try and penetrate the intensely competitive British scene the Commonwealth riders raced the second level events on the Championship circuits in Europe.

When a team wanted a rider they often looked at those who already knew all the right tracks and were used to living on the road. Thus the likes of Hugh Anderson, Gary Hocking, and Jim Redman got the chance to set about accumulating titles.

[slowpoke]

At least if it's like last year Slowpoke, you can (and will ) rock up to 5 meetings in NZ's national series and probably get a top ten finish.
Its never been easier, I hope you agree ? G.

Yeah, it's an interesting situation at the moment. As far as top 10's go you are absolutely right, but I don't think actually winning a title is any easier, in the 600/superbike classes anyway. Thanks to Bugden (Red Fenton) and Gareth Jones (Brian Bernard) the standard set at the front is higher than ever. Those guys really deserve a vote of thanks rather than the criticism they got for employing overseas riders 'cos it's lifted our local guys as a result and it's a shame Brian hasn't been able to pull something together this year.

So yeah, while the guys at the back are slower than ever the guys at the front are probably faster than ever. It's great seeing Stroudy rising to the challenge training and riding more this season, with Craig lifting to match him, dragging Hayden and Choppa along for the ride.

Hmmmm, qualifying at a track you've never seen before with those guys up the front is easier said than done......especially when you haven't raced since September........

[onearmedbandit]

So it was easy for all the others? For a start,they knew about tough times....they won't do it tough these days,that's just too hard man.The bikes are faster,handle better,are more reliable....there are sponsors to pay the way for you instead of saving up the money all by yourself.

So I take it that you personally know all the young and upcoming riders out there trying to make a go of it. Otherwise that's a pretty unfair statement to make.

[Motu]

There were plenty of young and upcomping riders back in the day of these guys we are talking about...and yes,I did know some of them....they didn't step up where those guys did,nothing has changed.