Rider training or ATGATT. Which is better?

[FROSTY]

I got asked the question by a concerned parent recently.
Should I invest in good protective gear for little johnny or should I get him riding lessons?
little Johnny has a good helmet,reasonable gloves, a dress leather jacket and tramping boots (they cover his ankle)
I had to stop awhile and think because my gut reaction was to say--BOTH.
So what would YOU say if put in that situation ?







For the record I watched little Johhny's riding and reccomended riding lessons and a cheap proper leather jacket ex cash converters.

[cowboyz]

Im thinking both. Without question good gear is a must. I surpose if you HAD to pick one then gear would be it. But riding lessons are a damn good idea.

[slofox]

Both in my book. But if you have to split the expense, I would do gear first.

[duckonin]

Frosty need you ask?...:Oops:

[duckonin]

Both in my book. But if you have to split the expense, I would do gear first.

On any machine foxy it is your skills to be able to handle it that would be the "first" to have !! would it not ?:yes:

[mikeey01]

I started to answer this with my own thoughts but dam your right, which one first?.

Frist thoughts were for gear (hell your mad to go without protection) but that got me thinking, especially for a newbee....

If he gets training then he may be less likely to need good gear (around town anyway) what he's got is marginal.
If he doesn't get training then he may need the gear.

Chicken before the egg?

Me thinks for a newbee, first and foremost is rider training.... or at least a few thousand k's on the seat with a good mentor close by!

ATGATT especially when newbee moves out onto the open road.

[slofox]

On any machine foxy it is your skills to be able to handle it that would be the "first" to have !! would it not ?:yes:

Well, yeah, but then even the best of riders can be "displaced" by some loon in a car...

It's kind of chicken and egg, innit? Maybe do the lessons first BEFORE you allow little Johhny out on the road..? But if he's out on the road anyway, gear is a MUST in my book...

Ideally, buy the gear, get the lessons all on the same day!

[MSTRS]

Both. IMHO.
Learn (properly) to ride = reduces chance of binning.
ATGATT = reduces chance/severity of injury in a bin.

2 sides of the same coin.

[sondela]

What if... he were to fall off while getting the training? I'd go for gear first, personally...

[James Deuce]

Ban motorcycles. That'll fixit.

[MSTRS]

Ban motorcycles. That'll fixit.

Ban grumpy old cunts that have done it all...and don't want anyone else to upstage their exploits.
:innocent:

[James Deuce]

Ban ungrumpy old cunts who should have left their idealism at the door!

Upstaging isn't the issue. Futility is. You can lead a newbie to wisdom but you can't make them think.

It may be time to start up the "Dismount A Gearless Straphanger" to get the "no skills, less gear hurts" message across. We could call it DAGS.

[StoneY]

<<<<Supports the DAGS initiative

Next jandal wearing skirt clad sroter that passes me on a crossing gets vapourized

[James Deuce]

Or "Dagged" as the DAGS members like to say.

[quickbuck]

Okay Frosty, that is a VERY good question.. and real Chicken and Egg stuff.

I would say, "Lessons". If he has the Hat, Jacket (Dress, will be okay for what i suggest), gloves and Boots (Even if they are tramping) then get little Johnny out to a large area of Tarmac and get him some lessons on slow speed handling... On the basics.... RRRS Course springs to mind...
Doesn't have to be California Superbike School (as good as it is).

Then slowly replace all the bits of gear as funds become available. First Jacket, then BOOTS! And then buy loads of gloves for all conditions... Or, is that just me??
Oh, and Pants... hell all I can see is $$$$$.
Then we never proclaim motorcycling to be cheap transport do we...

[Scuba_Steve]

I would say it depends on the training,
Most training I've seen will teach you "lawful" riding/driving not safe riding/driving & that in itself can be more dangourous than no training at all. The best trainer in my opinion is your dad (if a biker too) or an experienced biker you know & trust.

So I'd say to put the money towards some pants, some wet weather, winter & summer gear (which ever is needed) & practice on "dead" roads for awhile until confident & ready for light traffic.

[quickbuck]

I would say it depends on the training,
Most training I've seen will teach you "lawful" riding/driving not safe riding/driving & that in itself can be more dangourous than no training at all. The best trainer in my opinion is your dad (if a biker too) or an experienced biker you know & trust.

So I'd say to put the money towards some pants, some wet weather, winter & summer gear (which ever is needed) & practice on "dead" roads for awhile until confident & ready for light traffic.

Would like to see the training you have "Seen".

So, you say there is a market for "What your dad would teach you" style of training?
Not having a go, just interested in what sort of training schools people would benefit the new motorcyclist.

For what it is worth, I think the prerequisite for getting your L plates is seriously lacking.... Okay, it assesses that the student has actually ridden before, BUT I feel there needs to be more! Much more!

[FROSTY]

That begs another question.
Who is a lesser danger to themselves.
A L plate rider fully kitted with 3 hours riding experience and no training OR a rider of 10years (or greater) experience riding in shorts and tee shirt?

[MSTRS]

That begs another question.
Who is a lesser danger to themselves.
A L plate rider fully kitted with 3 hours riding experience and no training OR a rider of 10years (or greater) experience riding in shorts and tee shirt?

I think we know the answer to that, young man.

[cowboyz]

just because your not wearing all the gear doesnt unbalance the bike enough to make it magically fall over. Yes good gear is a damn good idea. No one is going to deny that. And speaking for myself, I wear full leathers because I know that when I get into some of those back roads I *am* going to push the envelope and I *may* fuck it up. I dont wear full leather because I am going to crash or have the intention of crashing.
You missed a group too. I would say the 2 main groups that are most likely to crash are born again middle age bikers who did it all 20 years ago on machines with a tenth of the horsepower and young guys who have been riding 2-3 years without incident and their confidence levels are at an all time high. Newbie riders tend to be very very caucious and experienced riders - well they have experience which counts for alot

[imdying]

Definitely gear first. Even with training you can potentially fall off, in fact nothing can prevent you from potentially falling off. Sometimes falling off isn't your fault or even avoidable; ask anyone who has been rear ended at a set of traffic lights.

[vifferman]

The thing is, even with training, it takes a while to get the skills and experience to be a good rider - there are no shortcuts. So, while I would agree that both lessons and gear are required, if it's a toss-up because they can't afford both at once, then I'd go for gear first. This also tends to mitigate the risks associated with the unexpected happening, like something falling off a truck, a pedestrian leaping into your path, or whatever.

However, no-one should go out on the road with no training at all.

[Waxxa]

take the lil' johnny up to muriwai. You cant beat having a 'dirt' background to help your riding for good.

my ol' man started me riding in the dunes and forests (I was 11yr) and I will swear this has given me at least, a solid background of riding skills.

[quickbuck]

take the lil' johnny up to muriwai. You cant beat having a 'dirt' background to help your riding for good.

my ol' man started me riding in the dunes and forests (I was 11yr) and I will swear this has given me at least, a solid background of riding skills.

Yeah, I'm starting to listen to guys who keep saying this.....

Thing is I started riding real young. Things that really come second nature to me are a mystery to some people..... People who have only really ridden on the road.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't any good riders who have had no off road experience, BUT some of our very best started in the kitty litter so to speak (Helps them not to end up there in the future too....).

Big names like, Eddie Lawson, Gary McCoy, Colin Edwards, Aaron Slight.... Hell, the list is actually VERY long..... and there are many who may rate higher that i haven't even thought of...

Now, a little background... Once (pre teens), I could actually ride the bike sideways (like full opposite lock, and that was a lot on a CT90), feet up, all day in the snow without it even freaking me out.
Okay, took a bit of practice to get to that point.
It is only lately that I have learnt not to worry if the back steps out on the road bike.

[imdying]

And the best ever started on scooters :lol:

[Squiggles]

A L plate rider fully kitted with 3 hours riding experience and no training OR a rider of 10years (or greater) experience riding in shorts and tee shirt?

(over)confidence vs noobiness?

[Mikkel]

That begs another question.
Who is a lesser danger to themselves.
A L plate rider fully kitted with 3 hours riding experience and no training OR a rider of 10years (or greater) experience riding in shorts and tee shirt?

Depends on the individual. If the L-plate rider is equipped with a brain and a sense of self-preservation, he could easily be safer than some gimp who've just managed to beat the odds for 10+ years.

Gear is a funny thing. It'll keep your skin on your body - but it won't save you from getting crushed by a truck.
If you get riding instruction from the get go and are taught to take the risks involved serious, then I'd say you'd be better off getting instruction first. But we all know, instruction (or mentoring) does not necessarily cost anything.

[p.dath]

That begs another question.
Who is a lesser danger to themselves.
A L plate rider fully kitted with 3 hours riding experience and no training OR a rider of 10years (or greater) experience riding in shorts and tee shirt?

The problem is, other road users also pose a danger to the rider.

If you define "danger" as the probability of having an accident, and if you do, to be able to walk away from it ... I would say the L-plate rider has the lesser danger.

The L-plate rider is much more likely to have an accident, but stand a greater chance of walking away from it than someone who has no protective clothing.

[OutForADuck]

Obviously BOTH.

But given the choice.. the gear first.. because you'll need it to do any decent training anyway + Training helps you stay on its not full proof.

As for the second question, in my experience unfortunately there is little relationship between the number of years you have been riding and your likelihood of NOT falling off.

I guess apart from good ol' odds over time there is that little saying practice of perfection makes you perfect, but most of us have years of bad habits and just doing things because that's how our mates did it.

[avgas]

You cant beat having a 'dirt' background to help your riding for good.

Seconded. Dirt is the training king.
I also recommend car drivers do this also.
Riding on the dirt teaches you so many things that save your skin - like position and posture. So often I see riders hit gravel and stuff on the road and they freak out. Likewise car drivers who don't know how to manage a car that is sliding out.
Going to teach the misses manual (car) this summer. You can guarantee that will be on the dirt.

So Tony I would recommend some good gear - the training will come part from you, and part of it will come naturally.

[wysper]

For me it would be get the gear first.
Make training part of the learner process.

But gear should be considered as important as the bike.

It is all that is keeping you that little bit safer if all goes wrong.

Training is the bit that hopefully stops you getting to the point where all goes wrong :2thumbsup

Must get round to doing some training myself some day......

[Swoop]

Next jandal wearing skirt clad sroter that passes me on a crossing gets vapourized
Can we please leave Honda riders' out of this?:buggerd::lol::hug:

[PrincessBandit]

I think a poll is in order!

For me - BOTH. If it HAS to be one or the other I'd say gear.

[ckai]

damn good question, but the more i think about it, if it has to be one, it would be gear. All the training in the world can't protect you from a moron driving a beemer (sorry to all the beemer drivers ;))

You can be the most careful rider but you still have others on the road. Gear is protection from meatheads (as much as can be protected)

[CookMySock]

It's infeasible to put a newbie on the road with insufficient gear. It permanently sets the precedent that inadequate gear is acceptable when it isn't, and leaves the newbie preoccupied with his safety, when he should be concentrating on his safety. Yep, read that again.

If they are not taught to steer and brake from ab initio, they will never embed it permanently, so without proper training and supervision you might as well decide for them that they will never be an able biker.

Exclude either gear or training, and you cripple them permanently. Wy bother starting?

Steve

[quickbuck]

And the best ever started on scooters :lol:
I guess he did since every italian rides one ;)

Seconded. Dirt is the training king.
I also recommend car drivers do this also.
Riding on the dirt teaches you so many things that save your skin - like position and posture. So often I see riders hit gravel and stuff on the road and they freak out. Likewise car drivers who don't know how to manage a car that is sliding out.
Going to teach the misses manual (car) this summer. You can guarantee that will be on the dirt.
.
Agree.
Riders freak out, and cause a worse situation because of "Survival Reactions" - Twist of the Wrist 2 (Keith Code).

Before I got my cage licence dad took me into a wet paddock and we did skids for a few hours until I could hold them and get the car back with exactly the right amount of correction....

Now they have turned this into a sport? And boy racers think they are cool doing it around cul-der-sacs?
Yup, go figure!

It is great training in the appropriate place.

[Edbear]

Okay Frosty, that is a VERY good question.. and real Chicken and Egg stuff.

I would say, "Lessons". If he has the Hat, Jacket (Dress, will be okay for what i suggest), gloves and Boots (Even if they are tramping) then get little Johnny out to a large area of Tarmac and get him some lessons on slow speed handling... On the basics.... RRRS Course springs to mind...
Doesn't have to be California Superbike School (as good as it is).

Then slowly replace all the bits of gear as funds become available. First Jacket, then BOOTS! And then buy loads of gloves for all conditions... Or, is that just me??
Oh, and Pants... hell all I can see is $$$$$.
Then we never proclaim motorcycling to be cheap transport do we...

I always ride with my pants on.. :lol:


Definitely gear first. Even with training you can potentially fall off, in fact nothing can prevent you from potentially falling off. Sometimes falling off isn't your fault or even avoidable; ask anyone who has been rear ended at a set of traffic lights.

This is true.. :whistle:


For me it would be get the gear first.
Make training part of the learner process.

But gear should be considered as important as the bike.

It is all that is keeping you that little bit safer if all goes wrong.

Training is the bit that hopefully stops you getting to the point where all goes wrong :2thumbsup

Must get round to doing some training myself some day......


I think a poll is in order!

For me - BOTH. If it HAS to be one or the other I'd say gear.

Riding apparel should be considered part of the cost of buying a bike. Like seatbelts in a car, it is necessary. If you can't afford the gear, you can't afford the bike.


It's infeasible to put a newbie on the road with insufficient gear. It permanently sets the precedent that inadequate gear is acceptable when it isn't, and leaves the newbie preoccupied with his safety, when he should be concentrating on his safety. Yep, read that again.

If they are not taught to steer and brake from ab initio, they will never embed it permanently, so without proper training and supervision you might as well decide for them that they will never be an able biker.

Exclude either gear or training, and you cripple them permanently. Wy bother starting?

Steve

Yup!

[Renegade]

why didnt you say "get the gear and il sort the training / mentor" surely there is a KBer that would step up, still a good question though

[paddy]

So what would YOU say if put in that situation?

My gut reaction is also to say BOTH. And I firmly believe that is the right answer; however, I think we really need to understand risk to answer this with any degree of analysis. (This is the point where those that know me groan.)

Risk is the product of likelihood and consequence. That is to say:

risk = likelihood x consequence (R=LC).

Normally an appropriate measure is used aggregate consequence and a statistical probability is used to define likelihood. ATGATT should reduce some of the aggregate elements of consequence (injury to self). Rider training should reduce the likelihood of an adverse event occurring.

Hopefully that makes sense. It's late.

[FROSTY]

why didnt you say "get the gear and il sort the training / mentor" surely there is a KBer that would step up, still a good question though
Honest truth--I was put on the spot and made a call.
I thought it was so early in his riding that a professional coach would teach good habits from the get go.

[SPP]

Shit just happens. Gear first IMO

He should at least get pants and a jacket with some form of armour to take the sting out. The prices have never been cheaper.

The price I paid for new cordura jacket and pants 2-3 years ago buys me full leather and and a rainsuit in todays money :oi-grr: