View Full Version : slower paced rides
in the light of sam's death i have had a few thoughts.
1 - go back to hospital, this worlds a bitch
2 - maybe us people who ride smaller cc bikes should not go out riding with guys on bigger bikes. its accidents waiting to happen.
i am very guilty of riding out of my skill range trying to keep up with guys on bigger bikes, going way faster than i should, overtaking on blind corners, ending up in wrong lane beacuase i go to hot into corners an so on all to try an keep up. i think the worlds a bitch but i would rather choose when i go,
i feel after poor sams death - RIP bro - that there are only going to be more accidents as less experienced riders try keep up with the big boys
just my feelings
i wont be riding with the big boys for a few months, as i know i will do stup[id shit to try keep up.
No disrespect to anyone, but why try and keep up? Esp. if you know it's out of your league.
I think it's good for people of different abilities to hook up, but there should be an understanding (for example, if there's a corner then the group waits for tail end charlie). By getting groups together with differing abilities good learning can occur.
Gixxer 4 ever
2nd May 2005, 13:03
I have said this before. Ride at your own pace. In a time of grief we all feel vulnerable and what you say is correct. However I was out on a ride yesterday ( before I read about Sam) and it was a great day with top class road surface and I caned it hard. It was a good day for me but I realise the risk but I ride because it keeps me sane. My bike is my form of exorcism and it chases out the demons. People need to have self control and RIDE AT YOUR OWN PACE I ride at 100kmh sometimes but I go a bit faster at other. I need to.
Yep we need to be aware of others on the rides but the rules have always been the same RIDE AT YOUR OWN PACE. I have never heard anyone give a slower rider a hard time. I have had my daughters boy friend on rides with me and I have had to slow down because he has chased me to the point I felt it was unsafe so take each ride, and how you ride, one trip at a time.
Sorry if this upsets some but this is how I see it.
Take responsibility for your own safety.
surfchick
2nd May 2005, 13:04
I think it's good for people of different abilities to hook up, but there should be an understanding (for example, if there's a corner then the group waits for tail end charlie). By getting groups together with differing abilities good learning can occur.
I agree it's awesome to be close to other better riders so you can observe how they take corners- but as a new rider- the first few group rides i went on I totally get what he's saying about trying to catch up- the worst compulsion is where you use the straights to make up ground, but end up coming into the corners too fast as a result. I did it a few times not thinking- and now have to totally concentrate on NOT doing it. Just to sit at comfortable speeds takes alot of concentration as people whistle past on the outside. I'm a bit more in my style now and feel less pressure this way- as i frieked myself out on enough corners to really stick to my own pace.
bugjuice
2nd May 2005, 13:05
with Bear on this one. Most rides in groups (I say most, cos I can't be sure) will wait up for the slower riders. It's not a bad thing that you aren't as fast as the bike out in front. It's not a race, something to aim for, or a challenge. YOU are the one in control and YOU know your limits. It's grounds to improve on over time, not in a few corners.
Take things at your pace and gradually build up and learn. Most fair-sized rides split into 3 or 4 groups anyway, and that's suited to the pace. Most people will find a happy paced group and stick with them. Don't try catching up, cos it rarely works and only ends in tears.. Don't stop going on rides, if anything, that's the worst thing to do. Just conciously bear in mind not to race around. Take your time, learn the road and your bike, breathe, and chill out. Enjoy the bike, enjoy the company, enjoy the ride. Take it at your pace and take it easy dude.. They will wait for you, and that isn't a bad thing.
If anything, I'm sure everyone would rather wait for the slowest rider over waiting for the ambo. I always wait on the rides I join/arrange. Wouldn't have it any other way, and never had a bad thing to think about doing it. It's part of biking and the KB way.
Paul in NZ
2nd May 2005, 13:05
Hey I KNOW what you are saying but all you need to do is ask where the next turn off or regrouping spot is....
There is no shame in regrouping.... Christ, people wait for me and the Guzzi all the time...
If we all had identical bikes then some (like me) would still have to do dumb shit to keep up with the blessed. If you are riding a bike because you like kicking other peoples arses or showing off then there is a bed / box with your name on it waiting. Just think back to the first ride you ever had... I'll be it was alone and the feeling was indescribable... Thats why you ride.... Not to be an idiot.
Keep riding but be stronger and ride your own ride and take responsibilty for yourself...
Cheers
Gixxer 4 ever
2nd May 2005, 13:07
(for example, if there's a corner then the group waits for tail end charlie). .
This is rule number 2
If you know they will wait and you will not get lost then you have no reason to ride to fast
Take care all. I better get back to work.
I actually think people will be pleased to finally be rid of me but hey them the breaks of being a nut.
We all have to ride with variously skilled peeps to be able to find the level that YOU are comfortable at. The thing is to not push beyond your abilities, no-one is laughing at you if you can't keep up. The responsible rider will know when to back off before it is too late (no disrespect meant in Flyin's case as I do not know the circumstances there).
short note to Gixxer4eva - if I'd known you were 'caning it' I wouldn't have held back so much :killingme :killingme
Self control.
I've ridden with WT, Deano, Jimbo etc.
But it's not with them. It's after them. Without chase, more like, follow.
I'll ride with almost anyone. But at MY pace.
PS: Good on ya Mikey.
I don't go riding with the big boys - I know my place in the world of motorcycles,learnt it many years ago.
Sniper
2nd May 2005, 13:37
Good luck guys
Mr Skid
2nd May 2005, 13:52
I think mikey and surfchick have both made some good points here.
I've been on rides where everybody has shot off into the distance, and I've push too hard to keep up.
We all know it's procedure that the ride will stop to regroup at turnoffs, but I think we are being unrealistic to suggest that people won't try to keep up the pace.
I think part of the problem is the metric that is used to measure ability - the length of time it takes to get from point a to point b. I keep reading in ride reports comments about how well someone was doing based upon their pace.
When you're learning to ride you want to have the respect of the more experienced riders. I've pushed too hard trying to achieve this, and have the x-rays to show for it.
I think we need to reevaluate the metrics we use in discussing riders ability- for instance the ability to pick a good safe line through a corner, rather than how quick they can clear it.
As riders we have to take responsibility for new riders on our rides. I don't believe that just stopping for them to catch up is adequate.
A new rider will be getting more tired than an experienced rider, and will need more rest at each stop to recover. I don't think we can rely on new riders to ask for a few minutes rest at a stop. When there are a dozen other riders who are ready to get going just as you've pulled in, you don't want to feel like you're holding anyone up.
I think we each have to be aware of this, and encourage new riders to take a break if they need it.
To reduce the tendency to try to catch up, we need to be prepared to take turns staying with beginner riders. It makes them feel like they belong on the ride, gives them the chance to pick up on good riding technique, and an opportunity for you to observe their riding and give them feedback.
Advertising the intended pace of rides is also of benefit. i.e. "suitable for faster riders" vs "cruise" gives new riders the chance to choose rides suitable for their ability.
I'd say the people going on rides have got more diverse in their paces since I've been involved here, which does mean there's likely to be someone riding at a similar pace to you. However I still think these are points to consider.
Maximus
2nd May 2005, 13:58
I don't go riding with the big boys - I know my place in the world of motorcycles,learnt it many years ago.
Know whatcha mean, im only in my early 30's and I no longer go on group rides for fear of pushing myself too far. I'm aware that my ego wont let me slow down if being pushed (no offence meant) I will only ride with a group of 2 or 3 mates at the most to avoid any accidents . . .
inlinefour
2nd May 2005, 14:02
Good to hear. Live life at your own pace bro, don't worry about the rest :niceone:
As many of you will know, it ride not just like your nana, but like your nana's nana.
Not because I don't know *how* to go round the corners faster , but because I really really hate the idea of being hurt. And sure I can go round the bendy bits faster (though not as fast as the guys on sports bikes of course). But, unlike them, I am always aware that around *this* corner is Harry Huriup, in his 4WD, on the wrong side of the road as usual. And a pile of pea gravel, on top of a big puddle of diesel . Justy before the pile of wet leaves. Where the bend tightens up at the start of the unsignposted roadworks . So I slow down to allow for all those things. The fast guys don't. They know that none of them are there. And mostly they are right. Mostly. And maybe when they do encounter Harry or the gravel, their skills are developed enough to get them out of trouble. Hopefully
I stopped riding with groups years ago because no matter what people say, it always develops into a chase with the pace being set by the faster, or less risk averse, riders.
I grant that most rides will have a "wait for people to catch up" break. But the psycological pressure to "keep up" is very strong. Nobody really wants to be the guy that everybody's always waiting for.
I see what some of the newer riders say about riding with the faster guys giving an opportunity to learn how to get round the corners faster. But, to me, (no disrespect to anyone, here) that's part of the problem.
Learning how to go round corners fast is good, because when you know how to go round fast, it allows you more margin to go round a bit slower. But the reality is , that once people learn how to go round the twisties fast, they go round them fast. And don't worry about Harry, or the gravel, that isn't there. Until one day Harry is there. Or the gravel. Because no-one's really taught them about Harry, or the gravel, and how to dodge them on a bend
I'm not advocating anything , and I'm not making any anti statements. Like I said, I ride like nana's nana. But is has kept me unhurt, and my bikes unbent, for 40 years and half a million k's.
I think mikey and surfchick have both made some good points here.
I've been on rides where everybody has shot off into the distance, and I've push too hard to keep up.
We all know it's procedure that the ride will stop to regroup at turnoffs, but I think we are being unrealistic to suggest that people won't try to keep up the pace.
I think part of the problem is the metric that is used to measure ability - the length of time it takes to get from point a to point b. I keep reading in ride reports comments about how well someone was doing based upon their pace.
When you're learning to ride you want to have the respect of the more experienced riders. I've pushed too hard trying to achieve this, and have the x-rays to show for it.
I think we need to reevaluate the metrics we use in discussing riders ability- for instance the ability to pick a good safe line through a corner, rather than how quick they can clear it.
As riders we have to take responsibility for new riders on our rides. I don't believe that just stopping for them to catch up is adequate.
A new rider will be getting more tired than an experienced rider, and will need more rest at each stop to recover. I don't think we can rely on new riders to ask for a few minutes rest at a stop. When there are a dozen other riders who are ready to get going just as you've pulled in, you don't want to feel like you're holding anyone up.
I think we each have to be aware of this, and encourage new riders to take a break if they need it.
To reduce the tendency to try to catch up, we need to be prepared to take turns staying with beginner riders. It makes them feel like they belong on the ride, gives them the chance to pick up on good riding technique, and an opportunity for you to observe their riding and give them feedback.
Advertising the intended pace of rides is also of benefit. i.e. "suitable for faster riders" vs "cruise" gives new riders the chance to choose rides suitable for their ability.
I'd say the people going on rides have got more diverse in their paces since I've been involved here, which does mean there's likely to be someone riding at a similar pace to you. However I still think these are points to consider.
Good with words aint ya :msn-wink: You can come along with us on our slow gravel infested rides again any time you want - Andy.
Ps: got that chook chaser yet???
Mr Skid
2nd May 2005, 14:29
Ps: got that chook chaser yet???
Working on it..
Does anyone have a old ratty looking XT600/DR650/XR600 they want to sell cheap to a poor staving student so he can get out of sportsbikes before he breaks any other bits of himself?
Drunken Monkey
2nd May 2005, 14:47
Working on it..
Does anyone have a old ratty looking XT600/DR650/XR600 they want to sell cheap to a poor staving student so he can get out of sportsbikes before he breaks any other bits of himself?
Dude, isn't that why you got out of performance cars?
Stop messing about and buy a pushbike :P
I'm going to restate what I've already stated in other threads:
Group riding with all ages and motorcycle types is great for everybody.
The problem arises when the big bike decides to put the foot down and gun it.
It is not the sole responsibility of a newbie rider to know when to back off from trying to keep up.
The responsibility is shared between the bigger bike and the smaller bike.
If you're on a big CC bike and you're riding with 250's in the group, then you need to be responsible and slow down. Because we all know that when we we're young and started riding, we never knew where the limits lay, just as the young guys today don't know! So we should not be instrumental in assisting them to push themselves out of their safe zones.
If you can't resist gunning it when with the 250 riders, then you should really be riding in a big boys club.
As a large bike rider, the most simple way to saferide in a mixed group is to ride midway or towards the back of the pack. Definately not by leading. Leave the lead for an experienced smaller CC bike.
To all you smaller 250cc riders, don't cut off your opportunities to ride and learn from the experience offered from big bike riders, you can learn from them rather than learning from mistakes.
Mr Skid
2nd May 2005, 14:53
Dude, isn't that why you got out of performance cars?
Stop messing about and buy a pushbike :P
I didn't realise I was into performance cars.. I certainly wouldn't think of a 1.6L front wheel drive as 'performance'.
I already have a pushbike, though I think I would get frowned on taking it on adventure rides. It gets a bit hairy doing skids on it as well, as you have get on the rear brake quite agressively to get it to step out..
Working on it..
Does anyone have a old ratty looking XT600/DR650/XR600 they want to sell cheap to a poor staving student so he can get out of sportsbikes before he breaks any other bits of himself?
This could be you :ride:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Adventure-dual-purpose/auction-26347665.htm
in light of all the bad rep i received for my
extremely insensitive
"did he die"
about sam on urgent thread i have edited it out.
those that havent or thoxse that want to again feel free to bad rep me on this one as i believe i copy of ""URGENT"" is going to sams family.
Paul in NZ
2nd May 2005, 15:08
It you think about the physics and actual dynamics of group riding, the person who is at the back is ALWAYS going to have to go harder to keep up.
Next time you are at the lights look how the traffic goes from squeezed up close to spread out.. It just can't be helped!
Racing is VERY different....
There are several ways to solve this but it requires a bit of organisation..
Organisation cannot replace self control which is ultimately what is required.
Cheers
If you're on a big CC bike and you're riding with 250's in the group, then you need to be responsible and slow down. Because we all know that when we we're young and started riding, we never knew where the limits lay, just as the young guys today don't know! So we should not be instrumental in assisting them to push themselves out of their safe zones.
If you can't resist gunning it when with the 250 riders, then you should really be riding in a big boys club.
As a large bike rider, the most simple way to saferide in a mixed group is to ride midway or towards the back of the pack. Definately not by leading. Leave the lead for an experienced smaller CC bike.
To all you smaller 250cc riders, don't cut off your opportunities to ride and learn from the experience offered from big bike riders, you can learn from them rather than learning from mistakes.
Hmmm - I don't know about that. I think the big bikes should be free to do their own thing and the smaller ones just need to know their limits. Btw - I'm not implying anything about Flyin because we have no idea what actually happened. I totally agree with the re-grouping thing. And yeah there is "pyschological pressure" to try keep up with the big bikes but perhaps that's the thing that needs to be sorted out. I don't reckon having smaller bikes on rides should make the bigger bikes have to have 'less fun' and end up going on separate rides.
But it's all about getting the right balance between booting it and knowing where your limits are eh? Personally, I think I rode pretty much the same with little bikes as I did with big bikes (when my friends still had little bikes that is), and I'm guessing that quite a few people do. But, I also agree with you Dafe that riders of bigger bikes do need a bit of discernment in how they deal with smaller ones. But that shouldn't be the determining factor in how they (little bikes) ride. Gets back to the whole balance thing.
NO NO NO NO ON NO ON OPN NOO NON ON ONONONONONONONONNO
it is your own responsibility to look after yourself, not the guy going faster than you on a gsxr1000, he cannot make you go any faster or slower, you decide that.
there is no responsibility for them in "pressuring you to go faster", you pressure yourself not the other way around.
it is curteous if they wait at a turn off though.........
Badcat
2nd May 2005, 15:24
NO NO NO NO ON NO ON OPN NOO NON ON ONONONONONONONONNO
it is your own responsibility to look after yourself, not the guy going faster than you on a gsxr1000, he cannot make you go any faster or slower, you decide that.
there is no responsibility for them in "pressuring you to go faster", you pressure yourself not the other way around.
it is curteous if they wait at a turn off though.........
hey mikey.
i reacted pretty badly to you last week, but am pretty humbled by this thread. I had you wrong.
sorry bud.
ken
FROSTY
2nd May 2005, 15:28
I agree with the above --I usually start rides at the front to set the tone of the ride (speed) then drop back to play tail end charlie.
My figuring is its better for me to have to be last in rather than a newbee.
(Quote) from Ixion.
"I grant that most rides will have a "wait for people to catch up" break. But the psycological pressure to "keep up" is very strong. Nobody really wants to be the guy that everybody's always waiting for."
(Unquote)
Thank you Ixion for stating the obvious and I'm very suprised as it has taken quite a while for somebody to do so.
There is uneccessary pressure being put on the less experienced riders, Quote "Very Strong" pressure.
If I gun ahead with a group o 250's behind me, I know I'll be adding pressure to those behind, for some, this pressure will be stronger than for others.
Obviously if I remain with the group, I'm not asserting that pressure.
Therefore, I could be considered a factor in causing some of the less experienced riders to increase their risk taking and to accelerate their riding somewhat, perhaps even outside of their safety margins.
If I did this on a group ride and a 250 trying to keep pace crashed and died then I would feel like a real asshole!!! Because I basically put the gun in the babys mouth.
If this was Germany, it wouldn't work this way. Some nationalities have very responsible and mature young riders and roadusers. Unfortunately in New Zealand, we maintain the "She'll be right" attitude. Which is exactly why NZ'ers have the highest death rates on building sites amongst the developed countries. NZ still maintains the "She'll be right!" attitude, Also a reason behind why we pay such huge ACC levies and enormous insurance rates.
in light of all the bad rep i received for my
extremely insensitive
"did he die"
about sam on urgent thread i have edited it out.
those that havent or thoxse that want to again feel free to bad rep me on this one as i believe i copy of it is going to sams family.
I think perhaps you feel bad enough as it is. Can't see any point in any of us kicking you while you're down. We all say stupid things, don't beat yourself up too much.
Yep, Totally agree with XJ.
Riding at the back is harder to keep up. As mentioned in my other threads, thats why I suggested the big bikes consider sitting midway to the back.
This would change from the Rimutaka tavern though as there aren't too many lights between there and anywhere north.
Yep, Totally agree with XJ.
Ditto that. Not exactly sure how it works, but the further back you get, the faster you need to go to keep up. I guess it's because the leaders get first pick when overtaking etc and there may not be room for the next few to get through.
pommie girl
2nd May 2005, 16:12
Ditto what's been said before me. I would love to go out on a group ride but have held back because of a number of reasons, namely that I'd hate to be the one at the back holding everyone else up and after only 14 months of riding I'm not sure how my skills would hold up against everyone else.
However, I do think it's up to each of us to take responsibility for ourself and despite my competitive nature, I'm old enough to know my limitations - countless months in plaster and hours upon hours sat in Whitechapel A&E (a desperately dodgy place for anyone who knows East London) have drilled that home to me.
I'll leave it up to those more experienced riders to dictate how things should progress.
Quasievil
2nd May 2005, 16:17
Well for my pennies worth (AND YES IM A BIT PISSED), having been to alot of KB rides .
Upfront it is ALWAYS a race and ALWAYS a challenge and people ALWAYS ride outside there abilities and on KB rides people ALWAYS fall off.
Thats the cold hard reality of it.
And when we get hurt or worse we all come out and analylse our behaviour on the roads and come up with these ideas, but give it a week and we are back to our standard behavour.
If anything those of us that ride hard up front should be looking at ourselves and not looking at newbies and their "riding outside their capabilities behaviour" If those up front took a reality check and slowed down it would slow everyone down and set some behaviour guidelines for the newbies.
heres a couple of facts
1/Newbies will Often try and keep up especially if they are young
2/Older and experienced riders will Often test their limits and abilities
whats the outcome do you think?
Im no bloody saint either, I never said I was so dont bag me for these comments but I am older and wiser than many and I understand Human behaviour not to mention I have been riding for 25 years as well and survived.
Yes Im Ranting big time, Ive had 5 or more friends come of in a bloody week !!!! all doing stupid damn stuff
so alot of you stop bloody coming up with should dos and shouldnt dos and start changing your behavior on KB rides, a guy is dead for fuck sake what else has to happen!!!!!
Gixxer 4 ever
2nd May 2005, 16:19
short note to Gixxer4eva - if I'd known you were 'caning it' I wouldn't have held back so much :killingme :killingme
You passed me three times. :yes: :yes: But I know you would never give me a hard time so I can ride a bit slower and be happy. :niceone: After all that's why we ride together. :laugh: :killingme :killingme
Quasievil
2nd May 2005, 16:20
I'll leave it up to those more experienced riders to dictate how things should progress.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly right
Working on it..
Does anyone have a old ratty looking XT600/DR650/XR600 they want to sell cheap to a poor staving student so he can get out of sportsbikes before he breaks any other bits of himself?
I have a cow of an XT400 looking for a new owner...
email me at expatty at gmail.com and tell me your a kiwibiker and will give you it for a nice price (unless a miracle happens and someone buys it for the reserve)!
http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=26347665
crazylittleshit
2nd May 2005, 16:47
Everyone is resposible for themselves and Remeber that if the people your riding with Are riding out of you league then Ride at a slower speed. (KB always wait).
Yup, I've ridden outside my limits, we probably all have.
One of the best pices of advice I have ever had is "dont ride like a kid or a parent. Ride like an adult"
(I think it came from Alain Kirk - megarider)
2am raining hard somewhere in some gorge I was playing follow the leader... suddenly I realised I was sh1tting my self and making way too many mistakes. I thought "adult". I slowed down to my pace. stopped blaming bmw for crappy lights and got on with the ride. and I am still typing today...
* Kids do silly things without thinking about the consequenses
* Parents spend all their time telling kids off, and not concentrating on what they are supposed to be doing.
* Adults just deal with bad behaviour and stay out of trouble.
From what I can gather there is a whole philosophy about this that is applied to general life and business etc... any psycologists out there?
For what its worth guys just stop calling it a group ride if what you want is a free for all or race day. Been on many and the worse days are when people are racing down straights and worse corners - well above speed limit or ability, and yes been there done that. I do enjoy a group ride of at least 5 or more bikes for just that....a group.........nothing better than smiles on your dial as you can see your mates close by or rumbling into some hick town for shrimp cocktails at the local pub - god I love those!!
Heres my guide for a top day:
Leader at the front has experience and stays at a speed thats suitable for the rider behind him/her and that is.........
the slowest, then the next slowest, etc, until...........
the fastest at the back, why at the back because they have to do all the crazy passing if thats their bag baby, or they slow down if they want to catch up NOT vice versa.
Once you get to know each other someone may help in the overtaking to keep everyone together. They slow down the traffic thereby creating a big gap and allowing other bikers to pass.........
What do you know - in a few months newbies are starting to slide to the back as they gain more experience but more importantly because others want to join the rides because its FUN.
As for that leader just suck the fact that you are having a slow day (including corners), next time you can go to the back.
Enjoy, fellow BIKIES............
crashe
2nd May 2005, 17:02
I have been on quite a few KB rides now...
The first few times I was really worried that I was holding everyone up....
But RIB and Zapf were a couple at the beginning who said "Hey don't worry about us, you ride at your own pace, we will wait for you" (words to that effect)
Well it took a couple more rides to get that into my head. Now I just doddle along and eventually catch up. But there are times when I do catch up, that I want to stop and have a stretch, but everyone else is raring to go again, so I don't stop. By the time I get home I can be totally shattered. (that is on the longer rides)
Yep I am a slow rider and I also ride a cruiser (A cruiser handles corners so differently from sportsbikes) and I do like to see the countryside and what is happening around me. I like to go at 100 to 110 on the straights and a hell of a lot slower on the cornering. I do tend to be the only cruiser out there on the rides these days....(auckland) and then I know for sure that I wil be last. Except on the "noobies rides".
I never was into speed, and I leave that up to the faster riders, and I always hope that none of them will come off, as I have seen them take the corners and wonder how the hell can you see what is around the corner when you are going that fast. Yep I have asked a few that question and received an answer.
Fella's, since I come up the rear, I really don't want to come around a bend and find you lying there on the ground all hurt.
When I see the faster ones coming up from behind (when I see them) I pull over to give them the extra room in the same lane.
I have found when I ride with everyone, that as a slow rider, I head out at the lead and eventually all the faster ones will pass me, and so then they dont have to wait so long for me.
But in the end, we all accountable for our OWN actions.
We MUST all ride safely and not do stupid things out there on the roads, just to try to keep up with someone else. That is taking one too many risks.
Lucyloo
2nd May 2005, 17:04
.
We all know it's procedure that the ride will stop to regroup at turnoffs, but I think we are being unrealistic to suggest that people won't try to keep up the pace.
.
Thank you Paps!
You have hit the nail on the head.
I believe that this is particularly relevant when there are new, young, (and I have to say) male riders in the group. Peer pressure (usually in one's own mind!) can be very strong.
I don't think for a minute that anyone on this site actively encourages new riders to try and keep up, in fact quite the opposite, but the temptation is there especially when you are new and trying to learn all you can from more experienced riders.
phantom
2nd May 2005, 17:09
The same principle holds for all sorts of pursuits, when I was a young fella and was into tramping in a big way the young guns always shot ahead and left the new or unfit ones behind. If and when they stopped and waited, as soon as the slower ones arrived they shot off again :mad: the best group tramps were the ones with the quickies at the back and everyone stayed together. Now I run a bit in a futile to keep my size in proprtion to my bike and group runs are a hell of a let more enjoyable ( or less miserable )if everyone stays together
Mr Skid
2nd May 2005, 17:33
Ditto that. Not exactly sure how it works, but the further back you get, the faster you need to go to keep up. I guess it's because the leaders get first pick when overtaking etc and there may not be room for the next few to get through.
Further to this, if I'm riding with a less experienced rider, or one on a less powerful bike I try to wave them past me so they get first crack at overtaking a vehicle.
My reasoning is that if my bike has more urge, that I'll be able to overtake easier than them.
It also reduces the "oh crap, I need to make this pass, else I'll be left behind!" feeling that can occur in the mind of a new rider when you think you're getting left behind (been there, done that).
If I make a pass first, then I'll try to sit in front of the vehicle until the following rider gets past.
It's just good manners in my mind.
I think if the ride is stated as "fast paced riders" then newbies shouldn't go. That is one of the reasons why myself and limmy organised the 'newbie ride' where everyone goes SLOW...... big bikes welcome, but preferably go slow.
This is ideal for newbies to ride in a group and take things slow as there isn't a fast group that has gone ahead.
But ultimately, it is up to the rider to decide his / her pace. I see mikey's point and as a newbie, I do try to catch up but it never works so I just do my own thing.
Sensei
2nd May 2005, 18:25
I myself ride how I feel , some day's I'l just cruz 120k if thats what I want to do . If I need to go for a Blast then I'll ride on my own . Even expert's ride out of they skill level's sometime's
I'm a bit of a cruiser really, except I've never ridden one. It has been known for me to get the :devil2: inside and push the bike and exceed my capabilities to handle it, and pay for it. But I'm definitely not a balls-out sports bike rider.
I've owned fast bikes before, and still do own one (albeit a bit bent). I enjoy the blistering acceleration and almost poetic way in which you can get around the twisty bits when riding a bike. But I don't race as a rule, and much prefer to sit with the second or third group, taking in the views a bit more and enjoying the reasons I got into biking - the freedom of it all. How you define freedom is up to you. You may find freedom in flying past a NOS’d, Turbo’d SuperMaxFuckwit cage on one wheel, or seeing just how fast you can manage to get through that familiar right hander without - well, you decide the next bit.
Group riding scares me. Honestly it really does. Especially if I’m surrounded by people I don’t know very well, or even worse when I suddenly realise I’m sat behind “Blinky”. If you’re into group riding – you know “Blinky”, because their brake light constantly ‘blinks’ at you. He’s the guy or gal that brakes for no apparent reason. You may be mid corner, then “Blink”. Or just about to enter an easy corner, perfect visibility “Blink”. And they really do brake, it’s not just the lights, oh no, they brake quite hard sometimes. All you’re thinking is, “What do they know I don’t !!?”. To make matters worse they’re riding a powerful bike.- so they drag race you down the straights, then fk up your next corner, and your next.
I prefer to ride with one other rider and machine for company, or if any more -then people I know very well. You trust one another. You instinctively know what they’re going to do next. They wont brake hard into a corner when they can find a smooth pacey line that affords the maximum visibility around the sweeper. They ride swiftly (ghay word?) and safely as opposed to fast and furious. Buddies. :niceone:
pritch
2nd May 2005, 21:39
Group riding can be fun but it can also be dangerous.
If you couldn't keep up, it would be seriously stupid trying to catch up.
So give up.
The following from Bike Magazine:
Crash investigator and riding instructor Gary Baldwin on riding in the herd.
"Unfortunately last year saw quite a few prangs involving group rides. In most cases the people didn't know each other- they'd organsied the ride over the Internet. Often they'd never ridden together before..."
"The only bloke riding at a pace he's happy with is the bloke in front. Everybody else is riding at a compromise - faster or slower than they want to. You either take your eye off the ball because you're bored shitless or you feel completely out of your depth but compelled to keep up. Riding a couple of feet from the back wheel of a guy you barely know can't be a good idea. If you must form a group, three is good. Five at a push."
Skyryder
2nd May 2005, 21:46
Read my sig. The first part. That's my ridin' philosophy.
Skyryder
Better late than never
I follow that rule. I have plenty in reserve for the unexpected.
I don't care if I'm the slowest - I'm just happy to get there.
GUYS ON BIG BIKES CAN CRASH WHEN RACING GUYS ON OTHER BIG BIKES , AND GUYS ON 1000S CAN RUN WIDE WHEN TRYING TO RACE 600S TO PIHA ETC, RIDE TO YOUR OWN ABILITY IS ALL YOU HAVE TO DO ,IF YOU HAVE TO GO SLOW GO SLOW
Paul in NZ
2nd May 2005, 22:14
From the net....
While most of us know that it takes about 1 second to recognize and begin to react to a threat ahead of us, it usually takes from 2 to 3 seconds for riders to recognize and begin to react to a change in speed (increase) of the bike in front of them when they are riding in a group.
A couple of seconds doesn't sound like much, I'm sure, but while at 2 seconds a small group of bikes can usually manage rather well, at 3 seconds some serious problems result. This is particularly true if there are more than six bikes in the group.
The following, I hope, will convince those of you that lead group rides to behave with new caution.
At 60 MPH your bike moves 88 feet per second. Assuming that you maintain a 1-second gap between bikes in the group then each is about 88 feet behind the next one. At 70 MPH the gaps would be about 103 feet.
A trivial example first - let's say that the lead bike increases speed from 60 MPH to 70 MPH. It takes about 2 seconds to do so if you are casual about it (using an acceleration rate of 7.5 fps/s) though you could do it in half that time. What happens to all the bikes behind that lead bike?
Most people, I assume, think that each will, in turn, simply follow suit. That is, each will also accelerate modestly at the rate of about 7.5 fps/s (5 MPH/Sec) and, thus, maintain 'the group'. That is not at all what actually happens.
After the first second of modest acceleration by the lead bike the distance between the second bike and the first one has grown from 88 feet to 92 feet and one second later the gap has become 103 feet. By coincidence this is exactly what the new distance between bikes should be while riding at 70 MPH. However, the second bike has not yet even begun to accelerate and is now moving 10 MPH slower than the bike ahead of it.
It follows, of course, that the gap between the bikes will continue to grow until the second bike is also moving at 70 MPH - 2 or 3 seconds later.
That is, if the second bike realizes that the first one is pulling away from him and begins to accelerate his own bike within only 2 seconds then he too will be traveling at 70 MPH within another 2 seconds. If it takes him 3 seconds to recognize a widening gap and react to it then it will take another 2 seconds for his speed to match the bike ahead of him.
In the best case (2 second react/respond time) the gap between the bikes will have grown to 117 feet, and if it took 3 seconds that gap would have grown to 132 feet.
Clearly once the speeds are the same the gaps will remain the same. BUT, since the group prefers to travel with a 'one second' gap between bikes, the second bike MUST GO FASTER than the first one for a brief time in order to 'catch up.'
If we assume that the riders in this group are conservative and individually elect never to travel more than 5 MPH faster than the bike ahead of them as they are closing their gaps then the second bike will continue to accelerate for 1 additional second and attain a speed of 75 MPH while the first one continues at 70 MPH.
In fact, the second bike will have to ride for TWO SECONDS at 75 MPH while the first one rides at 70 MPH in order to close the gap to 106 feet, and then he takes 1 more second decelerating to 70 MPH during which the gap between them reduces itself to the desired 103 feet.
This little example of the dynamics between just two bikes is trivial in consequence and easy to understand. With modest effort it can be seen, however, to be anything but trivial farther back in the pack.
Let's look at the third bike in the group. About 2 seconds after the SECOND bike begins to accelerate the third one follows suit. Three seconds later the gap between the second and third bike has, as expected, become 117 feet. But, because the second bike is traveling at 75 MPH at that time rather than 70 MPH like the first bike, the gap continues to widen and within one more second becomes 128 feet. Clearly the third bike must use more effort to catch up to the second bike than the second bike needed to catch up with the lead bike. Indeed, the third bike will have to accelerate to 75 MPH and will have to maintain that speed for FOUR SECONDS instead of the two required by the second bike in order to close up that gap.
WORSE, the next bike will find that the gap he has to close has grown to 132 feet before it begins to shorten and then ONLY IF HE ACCELERATES TO 80 MPH instead of 75. This, because the third bike is traveling at 75 MPH rather than 70 MPH when the gap has reached 132 feet. The gap would be larger still if bike number four merely accelerates to 75 MPH.
In a group of only six motorcycles, the last one will find the gap between himself and bike number five to grow to 143 feet before it begins to close. He will have to accelerate to 80 MPH, hold that speed for three seconds, drop to 75 MPH for an additional three seconds, and then finally drop to the group speed of 70 MPH in order for all members of the group to end up with a 1-second gap between them.
Further, it will be at least 11 seconds after the lead bike has started to accelerate before the sixth bike does so. Imagine what will happen if during that time the lead bike applies his brakes in anticipation of entering a curve!!!!!!!!!
Though this was a trivial example it demonstrates very well what we have all experienced in the past - the 'rubber band' effect.
Imagine how PROFOUND this effect becomes when the example changes. For example, imagine what happens at the end of a string of 20 bikes rather than only 6. Or what happens if the lead bike, upon exiting a 35 MPH curve, gooses his bike to 60 MPH as fast as it can get there.
There are things that tend to mitigate these problems:
Lead bikes can change speed more gradually.
Lead bikes can announce speed changes over the CB and, thus, reduce reaction times for all.
All bikes in a group can react to changes in speed of bikes that are farther ahead of them than just the one immediately ahead.
The members of a group can simply NOT crank their throttles up to excessive speeds just to keep the group spacing 'correct'.
A good group leader does NOT accelerate within 15 seconds of entering a curve (assuming he has to then slow down before actually entering that curve.)
The '1-second between bikes' rule should be abandoned whenever the group is riding 'twisties' - it makes sense only when traveling in a straight line on open highway.
Never allow a group to become larger than SIX bikes if even one of the riders is inexperienced with group riding. Never larger than EIGHT bikes even if all are familiar with the riding habits of each other.
If you think that the 'rubber band' effect is a problem when accelerating think of what happens during braking
Great, Paul...now my brain hurts. Interesting to see that explained, having observed it often.
Im glad this post was started.
As a learner I sure as hell will be slow. Im going on a ride this weekend with a few mates and they have had a bit more experience that I have, I hate to rush things and take everything slowly so it will be interesting to see how it goes. It was suggested that we where to go up to the hot pools up north but I wouldn’t go on the Motorway till I at least have more skill as I have only done 180k on the bike so far, and have a restricted licence so I don’t end up causing more danger by going snails pace on the Motorway. Now we have decided to go out to Kawakawa Bay to my relief, In all I will just have to take it easy on the ride and learn my limits on strange roads out to kawakawa bay from the howick area etc. :yes:
It was interesting enough when Affman TristanK and I went out for a stroll around botany when I only had done less then 20k’s on a bike and a few months after I had done the Learners Practical Licence over the North Shore.
Tristan was reasonably quick and Affman well he was Wheeling half the time :killingme :killingme . (Bad Influence and distraction for the rest of us). :laugh:
justsomeguy
2nd May 2005, 23:45
You guys are panicking here.....
I've had guys wait for more that 5 mins until I caught up.... I always ride at speeds I'm comfortable at.....
As I go on more rides I get faster, but I still am among the slower riders out there.
So yes I take it at my own speed. Never had a problem before cos on KB everyone waits.
OH YEAH.... if it's a fast ride and it says "fast ride" on the forum then don't go unless you're a "fast rider". If you have ego problems then that;s your problem.
Fuck that, its too dangerous at the back after reading Pauls post, I'm getting to the front, next ride, watch out !!! (err ..... or not as the case may be :whistle: )
Thank you Paps!
You have hit the nail on the head.
I believe that this is particularly relevant when there are new, young, (and I have to say) male riders in the group. Peer pressure (usually in one's own mind!) can be very strong.
I don't think for a minute that anyone on this site actively encourages new riders to try and keep up, in fact quite the opposite, but the temptation is there especially when you are new and trying to learn all you can from more experienced riders.
It is called 'testosterone' & interestingly, females seem to produce it only at Trackdays.
From the net....
While most of us know that it takes about 1 second to recognize and begin to react to a threat ahead of us, it usually takes from 2 to 3 seconds for riders to recognize and begin to react to a change in speed (increase) of the bike in front of them when they are riding in a group.
...
If you think that the 'rubber band' effect is a problem when accelerating think of what happens during braking
I note this assumes that each person is reacting only to the rider in front of them, and not to riders further up the line as experienced/alert riders would be doing. Personally, I am looking as far ahead as is practicable and respond to anything in my field of view. If I am following a group of vehicles, I am aware of what the vehicle as far to the front as I can see is doing (easier with bikes as they don't block as much as cages do) and I respond accordingly.
I have been on the toy run a number of times and, while I've seen some degree of "rubber band" effect, it is not as extreme as described - presumeably because the riders are responding to changes far ahead of the riders imediately in front of them.
Upfront it is ALWAYS a race and ALWAYS a challenge and people ALWAYS ride outside there abilities and on KB rides people ALWAYS fall off.
Thats the cold hard reality of it.
ALWAYS fall off?? Not in the south island Quasi :msn-wink:
I've never actually done that many group rides, but to me the best way to handle it is for everyone to meet at predetermined stops, and forget the whole notion of riding as a group. Long rides seem to naturally fall into three groups anyway, and I believe that this way everyone gets what they want out of the ride.
Human nature is that some people will try to keep up with faster riders, for reasons of ego/ entertainment/ learning. Done it myself- tried very breifly to keep up with R1AaronKDX after I waved him past once. Just wanted to see if I could do it, and maybe learn something. We were on cold tires, he was pulling away from me everywhere, and I quickly realised I was out of my depth so I slowed down. Just as well, 'cause on the next bend the back end of my bike stepped well out of line...
By the same token if quick riders slow down for the slower guys, some of the slower riders are BOUND to think "F*&k me! I'm keeping up with -----! I'm gonna get past him and show him how it's done!" Some of us just can't be helped :no:
There's a certain individual on here that rides a 250 - and he's an accident waiting to happen. He screws the guts out of his bike in an attempt to keep up with bigger bikes and more experienced riders and rides way outside of his capabilities, causing danger to other riders as well as infuriating cage drivers with his antics He's also short on group riding etiquette, and to be honest I don't like being anywhere near him when he's with around. Although he is a really nice guy.
I pulled him once and had a polite yet firm word in his ear about his dangerous manoeuvres and death wish. He replied, " I admit I was racing you, I wanted to see if I could beat a Blackbird." Well mate you wont if it's ridden by someone that wants to race. I don't, so I wont. My penis is large enough thank you.
You know who you are.
Sounds like an accident waiting to happen there Biff Baff.
Looks like this is going around in circles, and it all sounds like parliament, where people can't take responsibility for their own actions, and so those around them need to control the situation.
So what is the best thing to do regarding less experienced riders on group rides?
Don't bother with them, have clear instructions where to wait or the destination, put them at the front, or leave them to it.
It's really difficult: We are all responsible for our own actions and if we're stupid enough to ride outside our capabilities we've got no one to blame but ourselves if it all turns pear-shaped - BUT failing to acknowledge that, trying to "keep up with the big boys", riding outside our abilities etc is all part and parcel of being young and inexperienced.
On the one hand, it really is up to the newer riders to ensure they keep to a safe pace and not exceed their capabilities; on the other hand, we know that if we ride fast, the newer riders are going to say "hey, I wanna do that" and try to keep pace. We might not be "applying pressure" or "making them" try to go faster, but we do know that they that they will attempt to match whatever speed is set.
crashe
3rd May 2005, 15:06
Pressure being put on... here is an example of what happened to me.
One time going down 22 the faster riders were following me throu the windys.... and they were real close to me... I felt the pressure on me to go faster than I could. I kept signalling for them to pass me.... but they didnt pass me, so I really felt the pressure to go around the corners faster... now I wasn't comfortable at all.... and I really didnt like how I was feeling.
So when we came to a stop to rest etc..... I spoke to the lads about how I felt.... they didnt realise that I was feeling pressured... they said that they enjoyed actually riding slow that day... and they apologised.
After we took off again they followed me... BUT they backed right away from me to give me breathing space..... Thanks guys for listening to how I felt that day.
I am pleased that I spoke up on that day.
surfchick
3rd May 2005, 15:34
i have to note that my bike can go 100kph sweet, but it's naked and it's a fight to be comfortable at faster speeds. (never mind the L restrictions...) so my only way to stay with the group for short periods through some of the early corners. you can really sense the bigger bikes are really comfortable, stable etc resting at 120kph or more- where us smaller bikes are ringing it out- which it can do, but the bike itself is nearing the end of its is comfy zone. watching pyro fang it on his, and feeling the vibration develop over 100 on mine you can see how much more strained the technology is. i'd like to tag along on the rides- but just work quietly at the back on me cornering. me wee pet cornering. loverly.
it might work to have one good rider to occasionally take a super cruise/kind of take charge with any relative learners and just work on one aspect of riding- like cornering, or group riding formation, or passing... or some other particular thing on each leg- and let the good riders manage themselves. that way there'd never be any expectation of speed for beginers, just technique.
but even as it stands now- with a sort of amorphous self organising KB riding system- with a follow the crasy arse leader- it's still super fun :devil2: 'cept for my li'll tire curse
pommie girl
3rd May 2005, 15:39
it might work to have one good rider to occasionally take a super cruise/kind of take charge with any relative learners and just work on one aspect of riding- like cornering, or group riding formation, or passing... or some other particular thing on each leg- and let the good riders manage themselves. that way there'd never be any expectation of speed for beginers, just technique.
but even as it stands now- with a sort of amorphous self organising KB riding system- with a follow the crasy arse leader- it's still super fun :devil2: 'cept for my li'll tire curse
Hey, Surfchick, looks like I might have gotten a day pass for Saturday from the boy - so if you're keen on getting together for a ride somewhere that'd be fab! Have to do the mother-in-law thing in the morning/lunchtime Sunday, but would also be free afterwards if Sunday works better for you... :ride:
Pressure being put on... here is an example of what happened to me.
One time going down 22 the faster riders were following me throu the windys.... and they were real close to me... I felt the pressure on me to go faster than I could. I kept signalling for them to pass me.... but they didnt pass me, so I really felt the pressure to go around the corners faster... now I wasn't comfortable at all.... and I really didnt like how I was feeling.
So when we came to a stop to rest etc..... I spoke to the lads about how I felt.... they didnt realise that I was feeling pressured... they said that they enjoyed actually riding slow that day... and they apologised.
After we took off again they followed me... BUT they backed right away from me to give me breathing space..... Thanks guys for listening to how I felt that day.
I am pleased that I spoke up on that day.
Bit of a difference between that and the "racing to catch up" behaviour I was referring to. I had an impatient SoB in a cage up my freckle when I was somewhat less experienced and I was terrified to throttle off or touch brakes as he was so close - "lovely" bit of intimidation on that driver's part (did I have "Newbie, likely to shit himself" printed on my back?) There was no safe place for me to pull over, so I had a rather nerve-wracking time until he got bored/grew a brain/whatever and passed me.
Teflon
3rd May 2005, 16:49
I ride at my own pace. I dont give shit what everyone else does, if i'm not in the mood to ride quick i wont.
It's not only new riders you have to worry about it's the experienced too. I know for a fact when i'm pushing it my chances of crashing is a lot higher than a new rider.
White trash
3rd May 2005, 17:05
Bit of a difference between that and the "racing to catch up" behaviour I was referring to. I had an impatient SoB in a cage up my freckle when I was somewhat less experienced and I was terrified to throttle off or touch brakes as he was so close - "lovely" bit of intimidation on that driver's part (did I have "Newbie, likely to shit himself" printed on my back?) There was no safe place for me to pull over, so I had a rather nerve-wracking time until he got bored/grew a brain/whatever and passed me.
Now this is funny on SOoooo many levels.
Couple of months ago, we pulled up in Featherston for a re-group. Flyin pulls up, fuming about some wanker in ute sitting right up his date and not over taking him, just being an intimidating dick.
Then the ute screechs to a halt and the driver starts mouthing off at the group of about 15 bikers standing around.
Sam comes running towards the guy, giving him some of his own medicine. The dudes fires the ute in reverse and peels out back down the road, Sam chasing him down on foot still abusing him. :laugh:
surfchick
3rd May 2005, 17:11
Hey, Surfchick, looks like I might have gotten a day pass for Saturday from the boy - so if you're keen on getting together for a ride somewhere that'd be fab!... :ride:
let's go be rascals. :devil2:
Now this is funny on SOoooo many levels.
Couple of months ago, we pulled up in Featherston for a re-group. Flyin pulls up, fuming about some wanker in ute sitting right up his date and not over taking him, just being an intimidating dick.
Then the ute screechs to a halt and the driver starts mouthing off at the group of about 15 bikers standing around.
Sam comes running towards the guy, giving him some of his own medicine. The dudes fires the ute in reverse and peels out back down the road, Sam chasing him down on foot still abusing him. :laugh:
Haha, was def a funny memory for all of us there at the time! Kinda saved my ass while he was at it! :niceone:
Sutage
3rd May 2005, 17:27
All this been said.. whos gonna organise a slow ride? :D
You asked: "So what is the best thing to do regarding less experienced riders on group rides?"
I've been riding in groups for years and must admit that riding with a group of 4 or 5 experienced riders has worked best for me. I have learned from watching them ride and find that other riders always look out for me and I never feel bad about being last cos they will always wait for me. Sometimes though I will set off first and tell them to pass me when they catch up with me, so they don't have to wait so long down the road. Have done this a few times going over the Rimutakas and if I've been lucky with the traffic have even got to Featherston before them!
I've also been involved in going out with lots of bigger groups, e.g. 40+ bikes. With bigger groups what has worked best with us is having a "tail end charlie" who will make sure that no-one gets into trouble. If anyone wants to go home early they can report to the tail ender so everyone is accounted for. The destination and route is advised at the beginning of the ride, however to make sure no-one has to race to keep up cos they don't know the road or are worried they may get lost or have been left behind, a rider sits on every turnoff. So before turning at an intersection, the lead rider will indicate to the 2nd rider to wait on that corner until the tail end charlie comes through. This means that the faster riders continually get moved to the back of the pack, allowing slower riders to move up. So far we haven't lost anyone (that we know of) or had anyone get seriously hurt (fingers crossed )
Sam's death has made us all think though if we can do more to accomodate the 250 riders and maybe what we have to do, is split the group up into 2 - those with 250's or less (learners) and those with bigger bikes.
it might work to have one good rider to occasionally take a super cruise/kind of take charge with any relative learners and just work on one aspect of riding- like cornering, or group riding formation, or passing... or some other particular thing on each leg- and let the good riders manage themselves. that way there'd never be any expectation of speed for beginers, just technique.
Thats what NEWBIE rides are for. I haven't had the time to organise one. I am not the GOOD RIDER but will get one or two to come along.
Will try to organise something. 22 was a bit demanding, I think old north road is better.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Finally organised something. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=229758#post229758
Quasievil
3rd May 2005, 22:11
How about a "rate my riding" thing similair to the rep point style, only on a safety focus
for example we have choices
1/bloody lunatic dont ride with him
2/sometimes dangerous
3/fast but knows what he is doing
4/newbie needs help
5/safe as houses
and others ,have to think about it more
I dunno soething like that
And we all have a star rating out of 5.we have to earn a riding reputation as well as a general rep (which we have)
It wont stop anything but would at least show you what others think of you and your riding, you could attach a 3 star plus ride only , to organised events etc
I dunno Im to tired but you should figure what Im on about
How about a "rate my riding" thing similair to the rep point style, only on a safety focus
for example we have choices
1/bloody lunatic dont ride with him
2/sometimes dangerous
3/fast but knows what he is doing
4/newbie needs help
5/safe as houses
and others ,have to think about it more
I dunno soething like that
And we all have a star rating out of 5.we have to earn a riding reputation as well as a general rep (which we have)
It wont stop anything but would at least show you what others think of you and your riding, you could attach a 3 star plus ride only , to organised events etc
I dunno Im to tired but you should figure what Im on about
That will only cause people to bitch about there rating though wouldnt it?
Quasievil
3rd May 2005, 22:15
That will only cause people to bitch about there rating though wouldnt it?
Only if they cant accept a general concensus that they suck and are dangerous
might be something worth striving for.
Show people that other KBrs think they need to improve there riding for safety reasons.
could only be a good thing yes ?
I think from a safety perspective, it is great. But the rating being on the forum and anybody being able to see it, everyone would want the SAFEST RATING and when they dont get it, there might be a little problem. Just like the problems associated with the reputation thingee (as john has mentioned).
Only if they cant accept a general concensus that they suck and are dangerous
might be something worth striving for.
Show people that other KBrs think they need to improve there riding for safety reasons.
could only be a good thing yes ?
I'm all for it! definatly.
But not to be stereotypical but some dorks on the sports 250's will bitch about there rating as they have, you know how we are all invincible etc, I'm all for maybe a toned down verson of that so you can decide on who you would ride with - or be honest and put it in your profile i.e.
Riding Style: Fast paced, some times over the speed limit.
or
Riding Style: Slow paced, always under the speed limit.
or
Riding Style: Medium paced, likes to play chicken etc.
That way you cant bitch about your rating as you make it yourself, obviously you would have to be honest about it.
Why not put it in the profile...
Some of this may have been covered before (sorry - I do not have time to read through it all) but here is my 10 cents worth. The thing to remember is that human nature being what it is, no matter how you group people there will always be someone in each group who "has" to be in front, and equally someone who does not want to be last - ego I suppose. I believe the best thing we can do is try to ride with like minded people who are willing to take turns at taking the lead and tail however often that will not work because someone inevitably will have a "rush of blood" and do something a little silly and/or succumb to peer pressure to keep up, pass that car so you don't get left behind, etc. I have had the privilege of introducing three of my sons (Stu_Dog, Gunner, Foz) to motorcycling and whenever one of them is with me on a ride I am thinking - if they are in front: should I keep up and if so then I make sure I do not push them too hard - if they are behind should I ease off a bit so they do not have to take risks keeping up with me. I guess the point I am trying to make is that if you are riding with someone you know and care about then you want to stay together without risking yourself or them - if someone sets a pace you are not comfortable with then let them go.
pommie girl
4th May 2005, 08:36
Talking of slow rides, surfchick and I are going to head out on Saturday (7th May) - aroundabout 11am - somewhere like SH22 or up north if anyone fancies joining us. Suggestions on routes gratefully received. :ride:
zooter
4th May 2005, 23:05
Somebody define "group ride" please and set it in stone without arguments, for all to understand and accept for all time. For this litttle dissertation I will define a group ride as one in which the bikes stay more or less together so that nobody pulls up more than 15 seconds behind the previous bike. Consider the following:
It is impossible for a group of bikers to stay as a group when there is maybe 5 times the horsepower difference between bikes UNLESS the powerful bikes are ridden "slow".
The road code for bikes directs that on group rides the leader is an experienced biker and shall be followed by inexperinced riders backed up by the rest of the experienced riders to give feedback pointers to those in front.
If the KB clan gets together there are bound to be a mixture of ablilities/HP/attitude to speed presenting themselves at the rallying point. If it goes as a simple procession then it can not truely be considered a group ride and is asking for trouble.
If Quasi's comments regarding riding style crash frequency are to be taken seriously then a typical KB ride is too bloody dangerous for anyone without a healthy measure of self determination and the willingness to be left behind.
I suggest KB needs to get its shit together and takes some responsibility for organising the rides into appropriate subgroups so that nobody is riding outside their intentions and abilities. If nothing is done the likelihood of fatal crashes due simply to "keeping up" remains high.
If Quasi's comments regarding riding style crash frequency are to be taken seriously then a typical KB ride is too bloody dangerous for anyone without a healthy measure of self determination and the willingness to be left behind.
I suggest KB needs to get its shit together and takes some responsibility for organising the rides into appropriate subgroups so that nobody is riding outside their intentions and abilities. If nothing is done the likelihood of fatal crashes due simply to "keeping up" remains high.
My stong opinion on this matter:
I say to you that if someone doesnt have the restraint to control their impules on a bike they shouldnt be riding, and will be dead soon enough if they do ride, whether it is with a group or on their own.
It is not the duty of the site to organise people into rides strictly based on speed. The rides that are organised here can be quick, but that is usually stated in discussion before the ride starts. If there is someone/a group of people who are significantly slower, in my experience, the faster guys do wait at intersections and make sure people are going in the right direction.
Blaming a death/serious injury on this site smacks of modern attitudes to accidents - Find someone else to blame. It wan't my fault. I wasn't specifically made aware that the road was wet.
To all those types:
Get a fucking life.
Going to agree with milky, self control if you dont have it you shouldnt ride sadly its a fact - If you have something to prove save it for a track....
Ditto to what everything Milky has just said.
We're all ,pretty much, adults here so we should be capable of knowing our own limitations.
Let's stop blaming everyone else. You and only you are untimately responsible for your own safety.
KB is just a gathering point for (mostly) like minded people. If a group of people in a pub decided between them to go for a ride, and one guy in particular decided where and when everyone should leave, why on earth should he be held responsible for eveyone else?
Here was me thinking I was going to be flamed for that... Good to see some others agree too.
I think some of these young guys need to watch more motorbike racing on telly eg Supersports, and note there are no 250's racing with the 600's or in WSBK, be aware of what your bike and yourself are capable of. The other thing is, is make sure your bike is in good condition, the number of times you look over some young guys 250 and brake pads are worn right down, low on brake fluid, chain dry as and too loose, oil leaks, levers set in strange positions, bald tires or often new tyres but some dodgy looking IRC or Chen Shin eco special thingy. Track days are where you should be pushing the envelope not some backroad with traffic, indifferent road surface, a group of various bikes and riders.
And OK I'm sure someone like WT could probably lead most of us a merry dance on a clapped out Suzuki Impulse but I think you get the jist of my speil?
Mate! I'm feeling guilty for even owning a 250 after this thread!
I always thought the thing about motorcycling was to enjoy it. Some of the best fun I've had on bikes has been on small bikes.
I think it's rather sad if the message that comes across to beginner riders is that if they don't have a big bike they're only "going through the motions".
There is a lot more to motorcycling than seeing who can go fastest through the corners.
Small bikes can be just as much fun as big bikes, Cruisers can be just as much fun as sports bikes.
The whole motorcyling thing should not be how fast you go but how much fun you have.
I always thought the thing about motorcycling was to enjoy it. Some of the best fun I've had on bikes has been on small bikes.
I think it's rather sad if the message that comes across to beginner riders is that if they don't have a big bike they're only "going through the motions".
There is a lot more to motorcycling than seeing who can go fastest through the corners.
Small bikes can be just as much fun as big bikes, Cruisers can be just as much fun as sports bikes.
The whole motorcyling thing should not be how fast you go but how much fun you have.
Preach it brother!!!
I've always been a bit worried that when I get a bigger bike I won't need to rip through the gears so much and play with the the bike's limits because I'll just be relying on its power. So I'm glad I've had my little bub for a good few years because it's made me test what it can do and work out how to milk what I can out of it. And I just love it anyway. Go 250s!!! I think people need to remember (in this thread) that you do have to kick a 250 in the guts to make it do what a bigger bike just does normally! So people aren't always being reckless when they 'boot it on' a 250. But yeah in saying that - got to remember to definitely ride within their limits too.
It's all about self-control and skill nothing to do with cc rating.
adamww
6th May 2005, 07:02
As a newbie myslef I believe you have to go at your own pace.
I had my little GN250 for 11 months before I found my new 600 cc bike, and when I ride with others I'm always last, but I don't mind.
I'm still getting used to it and have a blast while doing so. I don't understand why people feel they need to keep up with the leader, even when on a bigger bike. I am on a 600 for the last couple of weeks and I found myself going slower in corners on it than I would on my GN.
I agree its all about having fun. :D
zooter
6th May 2005, 10:42
My stong opinion on this matter:
I say to you that if someone doesnt have the restraint to control their impules on a bike they shouldnt be riding, and will be dead soon enough if they do ride, whether it is with a group or on their own.
It is not the duty of the site to organise people into rides strictly based on speed. The rides that are organised here can be quick, but that is usually stated in discussion before the ride starts. If there is someone/a group of people who are significantly slower, in my experience, the faster guys do wait at intersections and make sure people are going in the right direction.
Blaming a death/serious injury on this site smacks of modern attitudes to accidents - Find someone else to blame. It wan't my fault. I wasn't specifically made aware that the road was wet.
To all those types:
Get a fucking life.
You have made no case for doing nothing about the current situation. I'm not pinning responsibility for anyone's accident on this site. I have suggested the organisation could be improved at a sitewide level however I have nothing to do with these group rides personally so I have left it open for others to get on with it.
Since nobody has done anthing perhaps I'll start another thread on it and watch the fur fly. Back to work now.
Drunken Monkey
6th May 2005, 11:38
Be wary that basing your suitability for KB rides simply on speed may not be wisest thing to do either.
Cue babble:
There have been several posts like 'how fast do you ride?' which are typically followed up with some figure like '120 on the open road'. I can assure most readers that there are several riders here who could stick to 99 on the open road and still lead you to disaster if you try and keep up with them in the twisties.
Outright speed is far from my biggest concern on a big KB ride. Inexperience in group rides has (at least) 2 forms: Handling skills - one's ability to handle the bike at appropriate speed (probably includes hazard awareness as well), and Group riding skills - the ability to read others in the group, know your position and not ride in such a way to confuse other group riders.
There are even some quick/experienced riders there that don't seem to ride well in a group. They seem to struggle with the notion of 'staggered' riding, and, although strictly speaking I realise you are not generally responsible for the person behind you, they ride like there's no-one behind them (keeping smooth lines isn't just for the racetrack).
Over the last couple of years I have experienced a range of these situations. I've been on very fast rides with small groups of experienced people and had no problems. I've also been on big rides at much slower paces that have ended in a few bits of broken plastic. Big groups can look impressive, but obviously chances of an 'off' are increased (pure numbers).
Unfortunately the only way to get to know the riding styles of others is to ride with them and learn. This means there'll always be newbies. However, if like skilled people keep together , they can spend a bit more time learning the habits of people with similar abilities. Learn some safe group riding skills in small groups first, then move up to bigger groups. Get to know your fellow rider, their 'riding personality' and how you should react/interact with them. This should prepare you for a big ride better than improving your outright handling ability.
Hmmm, I do have more to say on this subject, but I need to get back to work...
You have made no case for doing nothing about the current situation. I'm not pinning responsibility for anyone's accident on this site. I have suggested the organisation could be improved at a sitewide level however I have nothing to do with these group rides personally so I have left it open for others to get on with it.
Since nobody has done anthing perhaps I'll start another thread on it and watch the fur fly. Back to work now.
I suggest KB needs to get its shit together and takes some responsibility for organising the rides into appropriate subgroups so that nobody is riding outside their intentions and abilities
Am I the only one to see a teensy weeny little bit of a connection there?? :Pokey:
The present situation is working just fine, as I tried to point out. There are slow rides organised, and the responsibilities of all on those rides are clear enough. However, if the rides are specifically categorised as fast or slow within the site, there is a much stronger case for redress should the ride happen to go outside those boundaries. Semantics maybe, but a key distinction nonetheless.
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