Thank you Slippery Nick, please can we have some more?

[shrub]

Slippery Nick, the man Our Masters put in charge of ACC has been incredibly generous - aside from only increasing levies ridiculously (as opposed to astronomically), he's taking $30.00 from each of us to introduce something similar to the Victorian motorcycle safety model.

Now, I know I should be incredibly grateful to the kind Slippery Nick, and bend over appropriately, but I have a couple of problems with that.

1. $30.00 out of $170.00 is 5/8ths of F All, and will only generate $3m. I know a bit about marketing and advertising, and $3m won't even pay for the cost of communicating a new strategy, let alone implementing it. It certainly won't even begin to tell the people who cause 40% of our accidents what they should do differently.

2. All due respects to Slippery Nick and our Masters in Wellington, but I think we know a little bit about motorcycle safety - after all, I wonder how many years SN has been riding? My guess is probably about as long as I've been an astronaut. And I will stake my reputation as a dodgy bastard that SN et al are a lot less concerned about motorcycle safety than you or I.

So my problem is this: When did we get asked what we thought should happen? When were motorcyclists invited to make a submission? After all, we have people like Charley Lamb who really know their stuff and would love to help Our Masters make our lives safer, so they have no excuse.

I don't think the levies will drop as long as National are in power - after all, they made a concession that SN reckons is fair, and pollies don't back down twice, least of all pollies in a popular government. I think we're stuck with being screwed, but I think we need to demand that they kiss us and buy us dinner. If we're going to pay more, I want to get more, and I don't want to get given what Our Masters think we should have.

Any thoughts?

[spookytooth]

Yea'chocolate coated armonds are bloody nice

[oldrider]

Any thoughts?

Didn't our representatives put this to him during "consultation" in Wellington at the various Bikeoi's etc? :shifty:

NS will claim it as consultation, that was always going to be a danger anyway! :yes:

[YellowDog]

There doesn't seem to be a shortage of cash to fund road safety advertisements.

Surely they can divert some of the wasted money on crap adverts to some that are more appropriate to all road users.

[BMWST?]

There doesn't seem to be a shortage of cash to fund road safety advertisements.

Surely they can divert some of the wasted money on crap adverts to some that are more appropriate to all road users.

agreed ...

[paddy]

. . .something similar to the Victorian motorcycle safety model.

Victorian in era, or Victorian as in NSW. :-)


. . . won't even pay for the cost of communicating a new strategy, let alone implementing it. . .

Yes. Definitely agree with you there. Personally, I don't see the $3M as contributing much to motorcycle safety. I'd like to see it go towards things that keep motorcycles in the public eye and legitimise them as a form of transport. Lots of signs, roadside, on buses, whatever, "Look for motorcycles" complete with the ACC logo (and whatever other government agency logos). That will be much better for us in the long run from a political lobby perspective than $3M a year spent on a rider training.


. . . It certainly won't even begin to tell the people who cause 40% of our accidents what they should do differently . . .

It also won't even begin to tell the people of cause 60% of our accidents what they should do differently.


. . . So my problem is this: When did we get asked what we thought should happen? When were motorcyclists invited to make a submission? . . .

My understanding is that this was pushed for by BRONZ and Ulyses.


Any thoughts?

We need a proper (no offence to the efforts of BRONZ and Ulyses) political lobby group that is properly resourced - both financially and from a people perspective. In fact we probably need several as different factions within the motorcycling community will have different views. The problem with that in NZ is lack of population/finance to support such lobby groups.

[NONONO]

Victorian in era, or Victorian as in NSW. :-)



Yes. Definitely agree with you there. Personally, I don't see the $3M as contributing much to motorcycle safety. I'd like to see it go towards things that keep motorcycles in the public eye and legitimise them as a form of transport. Lots of signs, roadside, on buses, whatever, "Look for motorcycles" complete with the ACC logo (and whatever other government agency logos). That will be much better for us in the long run from a political lobby perspective than $3M a year spent on a rider training.



It also won't even begin to tell the people of cause 60% of our accidents what they should do differently.



My understanding is that this was pushed for by BRONZ and Ulyses.



We need a proper (no offence to the efforts of BRONZ and Ulyses) political lobby group that is properly resourced - both financially and from a people perspective. In fact we probably need several as different factions within the motorcycling community will have different views. The problem with that in NZ is lack of population/finance to support such lobby groups.

So join BRONZ and provide the financial and human capital to make it so.

[oldrider]

So join BRONZ and provide the financial and human capital to make it so.

Plus one on BRONZ, why try to reinvent the wheel, especially when it ain't broke, just needs all the support it can get, so get in behind them! :first:

[paddy]

So join BRONZ and provide the financial and human capital to make it so.

When I say "proper" I mean with professional lobbyists, lawyers, marketing folk, commercial fundraisers, and PR folk. Don't get me wrong, BRONZ is doing good work, but they are an amateur organisation. I don't mean that in a derogatory way. It's like amateur theatre versus professional theatre. I spent many years in amateur theatre - but it was never going to be as successful as professional theatre. The capital to achieve that is considerable. It isn't going to be supplied by individual biker donations. I'm not sure that we have the ability to support such an organisation in NZ - but if we did, it would be good.

I hope that makes sense without knocking BRONZ. That is not my intent here.

[NONONO]

So the alternative is....?
If we all join up, or as many as possible, Bronz will have considerable financial and human clout. Give it a go, it's only $20 mate.

[maxf]

When I say "proper" I mean with professional lobbyists, lawyers, marketing folk, commercial fundraisers, and PR folk. Don't get me wrong, BRONZ is doing good work, but they are an amateur organisation. I don't mean that in a derogatory way. It's like amateur theatre versus professional theatre. I spent many years in amateur theatre - but it was never going to be as successful as professional theatre. The capital to achieve that is considerable. It isn't going to be supplied by individual biker donations. I'm not sure that we have the ability to support such an organisation in NZ - but if we did, it would be good.

I hope that makes sense without knocking BRONZ. That is not my intent here.

You mean we need to get an ex-MP like the Road Transport Users Forum and from then all we do shall be coated in Teflon - we'll get special ACC dispensation to regulate ourselves, extra LTSA consideration/input for any new roading designs, etc?

I agree on the support of BRONZ - but am still considering membership, there are pros & cons (mainly I don't know much about them past Les!)... Also, re the original post to this - don't forget Mr Key himself. NS maybe the figurehead, but JK is the captain of the team and knows exactly what trials he's sending his pawns out to undertake - I know he does, I CCed him on a nice reminder to NS when all this propaganda started coming out that the stats he was supporting by standing behind NS with all this BS were total mathematical crapola, I've got a nice cookie-cutter reply from his office thanking me and referring me to NS's press releases...

I guess from all this, we really need to join the dots for the general public - the press should be doing it, but they're not (guessing conflict of interest on RWC rights / ACC/govt advertising and/or editorial control being pro-Oz & pro-privatization) eg

- abandonment of the original Woodhouse no-fault reasoning & principals
- panic to get a cash-positive business with a captive market for sale
- segmentation of risk pools to maximise bidding opportunities and/or return
- too much political control of an SOE & it's board who have legistated rights to tithe every NZer as they deem fit
- discontinuity of the SOE creating blanket levies under law, but don't call it a tax!, then claiming commercial sensitivity around the funds raised
- supporting acts - Bill English, for new bill removing requirement that principals of NZ-operating insurance companies are required to "be of good character" (sorry, NZ operators have to adhere, foreigners don't)
- Law Commission - changes to Official Information Act, proposing hiding even more under "commercial sensitivites" for SOEs

We really need to bring this lot out - and once JK feels some personal impact (his popularity? God forbid, some in-depth, awkward questions?) maybe he will realise his layers of "insulation" have failed... we definitely need to do something before we become the defacto "poor cousin" next state of Australia - owned from there, run from there but with no legal input there!

[James Deuce]

So the alternative is....?
If we all join up, or as many as possible, Bronz will have considerable financial and human clout. Give it a go, it's only $20 mate.

No it won't.

Professional lobbying is just that. You need a decent constitutional lawyer, a PR whiz, and an admin person or two who can juggle frantically without looking stressed and you need to pay them enough to keep their interest piqued.

Organisations like BRONZ can provide human capital to a professional lobby group to make a public point as required, but a professional lobby group needs to be researching and releasing data on a daily basis and needs to be unfettered from the political ideology that tends to dominate the thinking of Interest groups with the word "Rights" in their name. They need to be looking for angles in unlikely places and convincing organisations like BRONZ or VMCC to support certain campaigns over others.

[paddy]

No it won't.

Professional lobbying is just that. You need a decent constitutional lawyer, a PR whiz, and an admin person or two who can juggle frantically without looking stressed and you need to pay them enough to keep their interest piqued.

Organisations like BRONZ can provide human capital to a professional lobby group to make a public point as required, but a professional lobby group needs to be researching and releasing data on a daily basis and needs to be unfettered from the political ideology that tends to dominate the thinking of Interest groups with the word "Rights" in their name. They need to be looking for angles in unlikely places and convincing organisations like BRONZ or VMCC to support certain campaigns over others.

Thanks. That's a much more eloquent version of what I was trying to convey.

[BMWST?]

No it won't.

Professional lobbying is just that. You need a decent constitutional lawyer, a PR whiz, and an admin person or two who can juggle frantically without looking stressed and you need to pay them enough to keep their interest piqued.

Organisations like BRONZ can provide human capital to a professional lobby group to make a public point as required, but a professional lobby group needs to be researching and releasing data on a daily basis and needs to be unfettered from the political ideology that tends to dominate the thinking of Interest groups with the word "Rights" in their name. They need to be looking for angles in unlikely places and convincing organisations like BRONZ or VMCC to support certain campaigns over others.

but in the meantime BRONZ is all we have...VMCC???Not the huge organisation it once was

[NONONO]

No it won't.

Professional lobbying is just that. You need a decent constitutional lawyer, a PR whiz, and an admin person or two who can juggle frantically without looking stressed and you need to pay them enough to keep their interest piqued.

Organisations like BRONZ can provide human capital to a professional lobby group to make a public point as required, but a professional lobby group needs to be researching and releasing data on a daily basis and needs to be unfettered from the political ideology that tends to dominate the thinking of Interest groups with the word "Rights" in their name. They need to be looking for angles in unlikely places and convincing organisations like BRONZ or VMCC to support certain campaigns over others.

And who is going to employ this professional lobby group?
And when employed, professional lobby groups become "fettered" by the ideology of the employing agency.
If BRONZ had the financial capital it could employ just such an agency. But without a large membership it can not.

[oldrider]

And who is going to employ this professional lobby group?
And when employed, professional lobby groups become "fettered" by the ideology of the employing agency.
If BRONZ had the financial capital it could employ just such an agency. But without a large membership it can not.

This will have to stop, I find myself in agreeing with NONONO again!

BRONZ, IMHO, is the only national (motorcycle) body suitable and anywhere near ready to employ a professional lobby group such as has been suggested.

[James Deuce]

This will have to stop, I find myself in agreeing with NONONO again!

BRONZ, IMHO, is the only national (motorcycle) body suitable and anywhere near ready to employ a professional lobby group such as has been suggested.
BRONZ would be one of the groups yes. Don't forget the Dealers and Distributors who arguably have a bigger stake, MNZ, the various racing clubs, etc, etc, and dare I say, NZ's only anti-motorcycling motorcycle club Ulysses.

However, the Lobby group needs to be independent and sufficiently flexible of mind to challenge Government policy in ways that don't appear to have anything to do with motorcycling at face value. BRONZ still doesn't have sufficient membership mass to be the sole employer of a motorcycling lobby group.

VMCC has a bigger membership in Wellington than BRONZ, which is why I mentioned them earlier. You guys who keep talking about joining, really do need to.

[StoneY]

BRONZ would be one of the groups yes.

VMCC has a bigger membership in Wellington than BRONZ, which is why I mentioned them earlier. You guys who keep talking about joining, really do need to.

Exactly JD well written as always

BRONZ is powerless if people only TALK about joining

There is plans to bring the National panel back to life...more on that in future, meantime folks get on the website or get in touch with local BRONZ branch, your 20$ goes a LONG way to building the organization back up to the strength we need

[Bald Eagle]

Exactly JD well written as always

BRONZ is powerless if people only TALK about joining

There is plans to bring the National panel back to life...more on that in future, meantime folks get on the website or get in touch with local BRONZ branch, your 20$ goes a LONG way to building the organization back up to the strength we need

visit bronz web site download membership form and send to us at bronzwellington at gmail.com

[NONONO]

You want me to join again?
Spose there is nothing really stopping me having 2 memberships....
And we all know why BRONZ Wellington currently has a small membership, but positive it will grow.
This really is a major part of the coming battle, having a dedicated organisation that we are all part of to fight the cause.

[oldrider]

BRONZ would be one of the groups yes. Don't forget the Dealers and Distributors who arguably have a bigger stake, MNZ, the various racing clubs, etc, etc, and dare I say, NZ's only anti-motorcycling motorcycle club Ulysses.

However, the Lobby group needs to be independent and sufficiently flexible of mind to challenge Government policy in ways that don't appear to have anything to do with motorcycling at face value. BRONZ still doesn't have sufficient membership mass to be the sole employer of a motorcycling lobby group.

VMCC has a bigger membership in Wellington than BRONZ, which is why I mentioned them earlier. You guys who keep talking about joining, really do need to.

True! I overlooked the dealership strength, how remiss of me!

Have to agree about Ulysses national body but I have to disagree regards the local North Otago branch, they are OK.

Unfortunately one can't belong to the local group without being a national member, so :no:

Even BRONZ is a loose unit as all the areas are independent of each other!

Uniting motorcyclists has been described on KB as like herding cats and I think that is a true fit!

Maybe we might have something to thank NS for in the long run! :rolleyes:

[NONONO]

And I'm gonna have to have therapy if I keep agreeing with you John..
But BRONZ is the only organisation that could represent ALL the diverse parts of the community.
Ulysses represent a certain section, as does VMCC and the dealers.
I would love to see them have representative members at each BRONZ local and then at National level, as BRONZ members.

[James Deuce]

And I'm gonna have to have therapy if I keep agreeing with you John..
But BRONZ is the only organisation that could represent ALL the diverse parts of the community.
Ulysses represent a certain section, as does VMCC and the dealers.
I would love to see them have representative members at each BRONZ local and then at National level, as BRONZ members.

BRONZ doesn't represent all motorcyclists, not by any stretch of the imagination. BRONZ Auckland and Les in particular did a stunning job to pull off the BIKOI in the timeframe they did, with the numbers they did and to get any result from it was a bonus.

[NONONO]

Hmmm. never said they do mate, said they could.

[James Deuce]

They can only ever represent those bikers who believe they have Rights.

[NONONO]

They can only ever represent those bikers who believe they have Rights.

Now that would be nice, but not necessarily so.
Many organisations "represent' members who have little interest or knowledge of what the organisation is doing below the surface.
BRONZ is capable of educating members as to it's aims (they only have to turn up at meetings to find out). Can't see the problem.

[oldrider]

They can only ever represent those bikers who believe they have Rights.

Despite it's apparent or claimed failings, if BRONZ had not been in existence, who or what other organisation would have been there to pick up and carry our cause when NS began his errant lying onslaught!

BRONZ is there now ready and waiting, begging for membership and support and "we" the ordinary motorcyclist's are desperate for representation, surely a match made in (motorcycle) heaven!

Sure it may need some fine tuning to make it an exact fit but at least it is better than having to start from scratch!

I for one am thankful for the guardians who have slugged away to keep it (BRONZ) alive during the lean times, when we had everything we wanted without threat of losing it!

How times have quickly changed within the space of one election, out of the frying pan right smack into the fire, for motorcyclists anyway!

[James Deuce]

Now that would be nice, but not necessarily so.
Many organisations "represent' members who have little interest or knowledge of what the organisation is doing below the surface.
BRONZ is capable of educating members as to it's aims (they only have to turn up at meetings to find out). Can't see the problem.

I'm uncomfortable belonging to an organisation that claims "rights" on behalf of its members. I'm uncomfortable with an organisation that uses the term "rights" in its title. I'm uncomfortable with an organisation that uses the term "rights" in its charter. There's no "problem". I've experienced first hand and personally the negative results of allowing an organisation to run geographically separate chapters and then expecting National consensus.

Personally I'd prefer that chapter structure dismantled and a National organisation taking its place with a paid executive, rather than thousands of dollars going in separate directions without a cohesive financial plan. The BIKOI has informed bikers in general about how the Government works and that knowledge needs to be collated and used as leverage for future actions.

[NONONO]

OK JD I get your point, not saying I agree but understand.
Personally I am in favor of regional organisations, I like the notion of participatory democracy. I'm sure that when the national body gets up and running it will be much more in line with your ideas while retaining a strong regional accent.
What is your issue with "rights" though? If you've been into it on another thread just point me in the direction.
Surely all organisations lobby for members rights in one way or another? Is it just that it's explicit in this case?
As far as I can see BRONZ is very much focused on rights AND responsibilities, maybe it should re brand as BRRONZ?

[James Deuce]

It's rhetoric belonging to a bypassed dialectic. It makes policy wonks giggle and allows the mental comfort of "knowing" you are addressing a relic.

It's a subtle point and appears hopelessly academic. Unfortunately a lot of policy wonks ARE hopeless academics.

[oldrider]

I'm uncomfortable belonging to an organisation that claims "rights" on behalf of its members. I'm uncomfortable with an organisation that uses the term "rights" in its title. I'm uncomfortable with an organisation that uses the term "rights" in its charter. There's no "problem". I've experienced first hand and personally the negative results of allowing an organisation to run geographically separate chapters and then expecting National consensus.

Personally I'd prefer that chapter structure dismantled and a National organisation taking its place with a paid executive, rather than thousands of dollars going in separate directions without a cohesive financial plan. The BIKOI has informed bikers in general about how the Government works and that knowledge needs to be collated and used as leverage for future actions.

You know, if I was a Nick Smythe or such like, looking for a soft defenceless target that I could use as a whipping boy (in order to create a circus of distraction, while got about my business undistracted) I could not think of a better target than the motorcycle fraternity has shown it's self to be!

I suppose NS should be congratulated rather than condemned but then again I am a motorcyclist first!

NS must be sleeping soundly at night! :sleep:

[NONONO]

Surely the notions of rights and responsibilities are firmly rooted in the concept of citizenship? Not an idea that I consider past it's use by date, not yet.
Citizenship is one concept that policy wonkers dislike but have to take seriously.

[James Deuce]

Now hang on a minute :)

I'm allowed a personal opinion, right?

I've also seen the public relations disasters generated by fractured "leadership" from BRONZ in the late '80s, early '90s and it wasn't pretty. Protest actions where chapter leaders stood up in front of pollies and aired dirty laundry publicly.

I'm for a more cohesive front, not against. I'm arguing that the leadership and message needs to be tightened up, not allowed to mutate throughout a regional structure.

[NONONO]

Sorry mate, thought this was a conversation, not trying to bag your opinions.
we got me you and John having a sensible discussion, maybe this aint the place for such things:apint:

[James Deuce]

Surely the notions of rights and responsibilities are firmly rooted in the concept of citizenship? Not an idea that I consider past it's use by date, not yet.
Citizenship is one concept that policy wonkers dislike but have to take seriously.
Not in NZ. Not in any Westminster Parliamentary system. The Bill of Rights is a joke and has been since the "leader" of the "free" world dragged the rest of Western Civilisation into a sub-optimal path of military/economic enforced redress against an organisation with no fixed address. Several points of law in NZ step around what the UN regards as the basic building blocks of individual human rights.

What we need for bikers is a thoroughly modern response to imposed and impending legislation reducing our freedoms and that means succinctly highlighting the economic and vote cost of ignoring a lobby group.

[crazyhorse]

Not in NZ. Not in any Westminster Parliamentary system. The Bill of Rights is a joke and has been since the "leader" of the "free" world dragged the rest of Western Civilisation into a sub-optimal path of military/economic enforced redress against an organisation with no fixed address. Several points of law in NZ step around what the UN regards as the basic building blocks of individual human rights.

What we need for bikers is a thoroughly modern response to imposed and impending legislation reducing our freedoms and that means succinctly highlighting the economic and vote cost of ignoring a lobby group.

What he said :done:

[NONONO]

Sounds like you're saying the only route is to play their game, by their rules. But surely that simply strengthens their hand? So I would return to my notion of participatory democracy, otherwise known as the get off your arse and do something model. For me the alternative of centralising decision making and policy by a "legislated professional group" is simply playing their game with their ball. The pluralist model is central to a Westminster style government and only loses it's power if apathy is the norm, otherwise known as the let somebody else do it model.

[oldrider]

Now hang on a minute :)

I'm allowed a personal opinion, right?

I've also seen the public relations disasters generated by fractured "leadership" from BRONZ in the late '80s, early '90s and it wasn't pretty. Protest actions where chapter leaders stood up in front of pollies and aired dirty laundry publicly.

I'm for a more cohesive front, not against. I'm arguing that the leadership and message needs to be tightened up, not allowed to mutate throughout a regional structure.

Actually, Jim is right, that's why BRONZ was just idling along and not a force when this ACC business broke out, it had suffered serious past problems.

Though they were rallying their forces (mainly in Auckland) it appears that many of the weaknesses are still yet to be addressed.


Sorry mate, thought this was a conversation, not trying to bag your opinions.
we got me you and John having a sensible discussion, maybe this aint the place for such things:apint:

This is as good a place as any but true, it could be an interesting subject over a pint, a coffee or whatever! :apint:

[James Deuce]

A pint sounds like the go, and a trip to the South Is. never needs an excuse.

[Ixion]

..

VMCC has a bigger membership in Wellington than BRONZ, which is why I mentioned them earlier. You guys who keep talking about joining, really do need to.

Maybe the fact that BRONZ Wellington is only a few weeks old might have some bearing on that ?





Even BRONZ is a loose unit as all the areas are independent of each other!

Uniting motorcyclists has been described on KB as like herding cats and I think that is a true fit!



There used to be a BRONZ National, to agree policy and such. It died in the early part of this century (about the same time as BRONZ Wellington). There are plans to resurrect it now that there are actually a reasonable number of regional BRONZs.

However experience has shown that a purely national organisation would quickly wither on the vine. Apart from regional feuding (does anyone believe that Auckland would let someone in Wellington tell them what to do?), it goes against the whole biker participatory thing. National bodies work OK for groups that just want to pay a sub and don't care if they have a voice or not. Like the AA. But a biker organsiation can never survive like that , we just don't have the numbers. We have to be able to make a noise, to command a presence , which means bikers physically turning out. And that will never happen with a nationally based organisation.


BRONZ doesn't represent all motorcyclists, not by any stretch of the imagination. .

BRONZ doesn't actually claim to represent ANY motorcyclists. It's a lobby group, not a representational group. Think, sort of like Greenpeace (who do they represent?) , but sane.


Despite it's apparent or claimed failings, if BRONZ had not been in existence, who or what other organisation would have been there to pick up and carry our cause when NS began his errant lying onslaught!



Though I say it as shouldn't, up to the BIKEOI! stage, things would probably have happened much the same with or without BRONZ. BRONZ actually stole the BIKEOI!'s thunder a bit. BRONZ Auckland organised the Northern ride, but that could have been just as well done with a northern regional organiser.

But, from BIKEOI! on is where a BRONZ-like organisation is needed. Politicians, and media and such like HATE dealing with people that aren't part of an "official" organisation. In the early stages of the protest when the media were working out who was what, they would ring me up, and the first two questions ALWAYS that they asked were "What is your organisation and what are you in it?" ; and "How long has your organisation been in existence". The difference in credibility between "BRONZ, an incorporated society blah blah, President, we've been going since 1992", and "I'm just some guy on the Internet, we started up a forum yesterday", is beyond measure. An "official" organisation gives credibility and official presence. Not saying that's the way the world SHOULD work, just that that's the way it DOES work. And please remember, this is the BEGINING of the campaign. There's a lot of ground to cover in the next 22 months.

All of which being said , I'm wondering somewhat if the wonderful invention of the Innernettubes hasn't maybe made traditional groups rather redundant. I think that cyerspace did more for BIKEOI! than meatspace myself. Though given that bikers are nowadays mostly pretty old, and old people (present company gloriously excepted) don't cope well with cyber, we may need to wait a generation to see if that paradigm will fly.




.. I've experienced first hand and personally the negative results of allowing an organisation to run geographically separate chapters and then expecting National consensus.

Personally I'd prefer that chapter structure dismantled and a National organisation taking its place with a paid executive, rather than thousands of dollars going in separate directions without a cohesive financial plan. ..

Sort of like the AA , hm ? Personally I think a national organisation without regional presence would die very very quickly. And where are the "thousands of dollars" to come from to pay this paid executive ?




I've also seen the public relations disasters generated by fractured "leadership" from BRONZ in the late '80s, early '90s and it wasn't pretty. Protest actions where chapter leaders stood up in front of pollies and aired dirty laundry publicly.

..

Do you think perhaps your personal traumatic experience then is unduly colouring your present thinking?



No it won't.

Professional lobbying is just that. You need a decent constitutional lawyer, a PR whiz, and an admin person or two who can juggle frantically without looking stressed and you need to pay them enough to keep their interest piqued.

Organisations like BRONZ can provide human capital to a professional lobby group to make a public point as required, but a professional lobby group needs to be researching and releasing data on a daily basis and needs to be unfettered from the political ideology that tends to dominate the thinking of Interest groups with the word "Rights" in their name. They need to be looking for angles in unlikely places and convincing organisations like BRONZ or VMCC to support certain campaigns over others.


And do you have a spare million dollars to fund such an organisation? , Nor do I. In the absence of a philanthropic millionaire , shall we all just sit on our hands and weep?

And why should "organisations like BRONZ" provide "human capital" to "make a point" for this remote and abstract professional lobby group?

Especially as your vision of this lobby group has no interest in protecting the rights of that "human capital". I don't do cannon fodder for QUANGOs myself, and I don't think many bikers would. I support BRONZ because it does just that . It sticks up for my rights as a biker when someone wants to trample on them. Not interested in paying for some "professional lobby group" that doesn't give a stuff about said trampling.

Actually, your "professional lobby group" already exists. It's called the AA. Isn't it doing a wonderful job ?

[shrub]

When I say "proper" I mean with professional lobbyists, lawyers, marketing folk, commercial fundraisers, and PR folk. Don't get me wrong, BRONZ is doing good work, but they are an amateur organisation. I don't mean that in a derogatory way.

It isn't going to be supplied by individual biker donations. I'm not sure that we have the ability to support such an organisation in NZ - but if we did, it would be good.

I hope that makes sense without knocking BRONZ. That is not my intent here.

I tend to agree with you. We need a degree of urgency, or in 12 months time we will have a safety programme given to us by people who have no idea about motorcycle safety, and we'll be told about the next raft of ACC increases etc. I have worked in marketing and PR for many years, and I know what needs to be done, and I don't see BRONZ doing anything specific apart from protest rides, which, in my professional opinion, is not what needs to be done now.

The Bikoi was important and effective in that it informed the political elites of the degree of popular dissatisfaction with the levy increases, but repeating it is futile. Hell, there was a 1200 bike ride in ChCh a few weeks ago that was ignored by the media and my guess is Slippery Nick had no idea it happened.

I have several concerns about BRONZ, including that they are not high enough profile - they were largely ignored before the levy increases. I worked in a bike shop for 2 years and never heard one word about BRONZ or anything they had done or planned to do. And I personally think the ACC levies are a very minor issue when you take into account the number of motorcyclists needlessly killed or injured every year.

I also believe they are too passive - since the ACC levies were announced, what have BRONZ done or said? If you look at their website, there are a few ride days and training days and a charity run listed. Nothing else beyond a statement that they are not happy about the new levies.

I also think their image is wrong. The day has come when we need guys in suits with journalism, marketing and law degrees batting for us. We need people like Charley Lamb conducting research to give our arguments substance and men and women who know their way around law, media and politics, because that's where the fight is going to be.

And there are 100,000 motorcycles registered in NZ and 18,000 people registered here. We are big enough to have a professional body representing us in the same way, say, the blind do. I think we need to involve the motorcycle industry - there are nearly 20 bike and accessory shops in ChCh alone, and all of them have a vested interest in motorcycling being higher profile and safer. Add to them importers, distributors, training companies, hire companies etc, and there are a lot of businesses dependent on the ongoing viability of motorcycling.

And I haven't even mentioned the clubs.

We need to do something, and while BRONZ are the incumbent, I think they need to show us what they're going to do and why they should be the group taking us into the future, or maybe it's time for a new group.

[Ixion]

..

We need to do something, and while BRONZ are the incumbent, I think they need to show us what they're going to do and why they should be the group taking us into the future, or maybe it's time for a new group.

Well, actually, unless you are a paid up member, no, they don't need to show you anything whatsoever.

If you are a member, go to the meetings. And/or sign up for newsletters.

And of course, you, like anyone else, may start as many other new groups as you wish, whenever you wish. I await announcment of the details and progarm with interest.

[shrub]

Well, actually, unless you are a paid up member, no, they don't need to show you anything whatsoever.

If you are a member, go to the meetings. And/or sign up for newsletters.

And of course, you, like anyone else, may start as many other new groups as you wish, whenever you wish. I await announcment of the details and progarm with interest.

But why should I pay my money and join? Are you telling me that they have plenty planned, but are keeping it to their members only? I thought they were an organisation that acted for all motorcyclists, not just members and maybe if they had a higher profile (and a branch in ChCh) more people would join.

[Ixion]

But why should I pay my money and join? Are you telling me that they have plenty planned, but are keeping it to their members only? I thought they were an organisation that acted for all motorcyclists, not just members and maybe if they had a higher profile (and a branch in ChCh) more people would join.

I am not telling you anything.Nor is there any particular reason why you should "pay your money and join". Those who do, invariably do so for reasons that have little of self interest.

BRONZ acts in what , in the opinion of its duly elected officers (guided by direct input from FINANCIAL members) , is the best interest of motorcycling (note the distinction between motorcycling and motorcyclists).

That opinion is based on the input of FINANCIAL members, tempered by the experience and judgement of officers. Who may of course be challenged , and replaced by the votes of FINANCIAL members.

Opinions of non members are certainly taken into account. As are those of Mr Nick Smith, Mr John Judge and Mrs Madge Entwhistle. BRONZ does not however render an account of its proceedings , nor think it requisite to justify its actions to Messrs Smith or Judge, nor to Mrs Entwhistle.

As to a Christchurch branch : feel free to step up to the plate and set one up.

[shrub]

As to a Christchurch branch : feel free to step up to the plate and set one up.

I'm certainly open to doing that and would do it if I believed that it was the best solution. Do you have a response to the comments I made a post or two ago? I believe they are valid criticisms of the status quo and would be interested in yuor response as you seem to be reasonable and intelligent.

[Pedrostt500]

I'm certainly open to doing that and would do it if I believed that it was the best solution. Do you have a response to the comments I made a post or two ago? I believe they are valid criticisms of the status quo and would be interested in yuor response as you seem to be reasonable and intelligent.

I belive that Ix exsplained himself well, I joined BRONZ Wellington, because I thought it prudent to do so, there are other issues in the future that will affect Motorcycling in NZ, other than ACC.
At $20 for an anual membership fee, I figured it hardly breaks the bank, at what I spend for sunday brunch and a coffee.
Yes if some one chose to do so they could set up their own group, but the cost and effort, may make this a little difficult to do so, though power to any body who does give it a go.
I am sure the other regional branches of BRONZ, will give you plenty of support to help get BRONZ Cristchurch off the ground, if you choose to do so, the magic number is 10 paid up members, failing this setting up as a satilite group of one of the other BRONZ branches is a possibility.

[shrub]

I belive that Ix exsplained himself well, I joined BRONZ Wellington, because I thought it prudent to do so, there are other issues in the future that will affect Motorcycling in NZ, other than ACC.
At $20 for an anual membership fee, I figured it hardly breaks the bank, at what I spend for sunday brunch and a coffee.
Yes if some one chose to do so they could set up their own group, but the cost and effort, may make this a little difficult to do so, though power to any body who does give it a go.
I am sure the other regional branches of BRONZ, will give you plenty of support to help get BRONZ Cristchurch off the ground, if you choose to do so, the magic number is 10 paid up members, failing this setting up as a satilite group of one of the other BRONZ branches is a possibility.

I'm not sure Ix did answer my questions, and it may even be that he confirmed my concerns that BRONZ are unlikely to be able to respond to current and future issues facing motorcycling. Having said that, I will be joining BRONZ and will approach them with what I see as being the issues concerned.

But getting back to the thread topic, which was never intended to be an attack upon or even a criticism of BRONZ. We are being told what's good for us and having the solution to motorcycle safety issues imposed upon us by non-motorcyclists. Is that acceptable?

[Phreak]

IMO there was a guy who had an idea about what to do with Parliament when they pushed too far...

What was his name...?


...Guy Fawkes!

P.C.-ness has gone way too far on this one...

But, in the event that no-one steps to the plate with the above mentioned idea, I think we should support BRONZ and push back as hard as we can, because obviously those in power down in Wellington don't have a clue how this affects us.

[Pedrostt500]

I'm not sure Ix did answer my questions, and it may even be that he confirmed my concerns that BRONZ are unlikely to be able to respond to current and future issues facing motorcycling. Having said that, I will be joining BRONZ and will approach them with what I see as being the issues concerned.

But getting back to the thread topic, which was never intended to be an attack upon or even a criticism of BRONZ. We are being told what's good for us and having the solution to motorcycle safety issues imposed upon us by non-motorcyclists. Is that acceptable?

I agree with you that having non riding & unsympathetic beauracrats dictating to us what safe riding is, is a recipe for failure.
Keep in mind it is us the motorcycling Comunity that has allowed BRONZ to become the shadow of its former self, it is up to the motorcycling Comunity to bring BRONZ back up to strength, and into the here and now.
To all those who diss BRONZ, if you want to see changes in BRONZ then join up and change BRONZ from with in.

[caseye]

James D, it's obvious that BRONZ in it's past life and as it was then, didn't spin your wheels.
While it may STILL not be perfect, I see it as the vehicle that can best represent those of us who ride and are passionate about our bikes and our "rights" as ordinary citizens who ride motorcycles.
The time is upon us all, we either sit still and get Shafted by Nicks Myth and his cronies or we fight back.
To fight back as a bunch of ordianry motorcyclists who have a voice, albiet one that may at times be fractutred is infinitely better than pushing shiet up hill with a rake.
I'd say that we don't have the luxury of making our representative body perfect before commissioning it into the Political fray.
Spend the twenty bucks, get as many of your friends and family to do the same.
Act now, shoot first, ask questions later, the fight came to us we didn't ask for it.But with the help of some very special people we fought back and we bit the hand that tried to chain us.
Your opinions, ideas and thoughts are well known and respected around these parts, if you could be convinced to part with your twenty bucks and be seen to stand up and be counted as someone willing to let BRONZ as it is now, do their best for you and us, it would go along way to making others do the same.
The reality is,that more than anything else we need members country wide, the more we have, the better the messages get out to the generl public.
Naturally and of course the more members that we ( BRONZ, yes, I and my wife are both members now/again) have the more likely it is that the Poliies will take more notice.
Ultimately that is the aim.
Make the Pollies aware that messing with ACC or anything else that affects us as a voting group (I' was told recently that there are in fact over 500,000 motorcycle licence holders in NZ) will simply result in them being bundled out of office if they dare to continue to ignore our representatives.
The above is my simple and honest opinion.

[shrub]

James D, it's obvious that BRONZ in it's past life and as it was then, didn't spin your wheels.
While it may STILL not be perfect, I see it as the vehicle that can best represent those of us who ride and are passionate about our bikes and our "rights" as ordinary citizens who ride motorcycles.
The time is upon us all, we either sit still and get Shafted by Nicks Myth and his cronies or we fight back....

The reality is,that more than anything else we need members country wide, the more we have, the better the messages get out to the generl public.
Naturally and of course the more members that we ( BRONZ, yes, I and my wife are both members now/again) have the more likely it is that the Poliies will take more notice.


I agree, the time is upon us, and we need to take action, and I agree with the sentiment that reinventing the wheel is not the best move. We need a professionally run pressure group with skills in law, public relations, marketing lobbying and media to act for us, or we will find ourselves taking our medicine, but does BRONZ have the resources we need? I've already approached BRONZ (admittedly a while ago) offering my services as a marketing and PR professional and sometime lobbyist and fundraiser. The response I got was disinterest, so I promptly forgot them until recently. I'm happy to offer my skills again, but if they aren't interested and I continue to see limited action, then I'll call in some of my contacts and resources and see if I can't start a group myself.

Needless to say, I would much rather tap into an existing system, but I think we don't have the luxury of time to allow us to slowly and gradually change from within. If we're still working our way through the internal structures and politics of BRONZ when Slippery Nick gives us our medicine, I will be irritated to say the least. I don't want idiots like SN et al telling me how to ride safely, I want people like us to do that.

[Pedrostt500]

I agree, the time is upon us, and we need to take action, and I agree with the sentiment that reinventing the wheel is not the best move. We need a professionally run pressure group with skills in law, public relations, marketing lobbying and media to act for us, or we will find ourselves taking our medicine, but does BRONZ have the resources we need? I've already approached BRONZ (admittedly a while ago) offering my services as a marketing and PR professional and sometime lobbyist and fundraiser. The response I got was disinterest, so I promptly forgot them until recently. I'm happy to offer my skills again, but if they aren't interested and I continue to see limited action, then I'll call in some of my contacts and resources and see if I can't start a group myself.

Needless to say, I would much rather tap into an existing system, but I think we don't have the luxury of time to allow us to slowly and gradually change from within. If we're still working our way through the internal structures and politics of BRONZ when Slippery Nick gives us our medicine, I will be irritated to say the least. I don't want idiots like SN et al telling me how to ride safely, I want people like us to do that.

The amount of time money and effort to set up an alternative to BRONZ, would out weigh bringing BRONZ up to speed, but if you think you can get enough members nation wide to set up an alternative, power to you, nobody is trying to stop you.
Though my suggestion is for you to get BRONZ Christchurch of the ground.

[shrub]

The amount of time money and effort to set up an alternative to BRONZ, would out weigh bringing BRONZ up to speed, but if you think you can get enough members nation wide to set up an alternative, power to you, nobody is trying to stop you.
Though my suggestion is for you to get BRONZ Christchurch of the ground.

I've emailed BRONZ and offered my skills and expertise. They weren't interested last time, but hopefully things have changed.

[zzzz]

I've emailed BRONZ and offered my skills and expertise. They weren't interested last time, but hopefully things have changed.

I went to one of the (last?) Christchurch meeting to rejoin and they were far from interested in me or my mate to join. (been over sea's)
May have been the winding up of the group?
What a change of people and attitude from the last time I was at one of these meeting.
We got the cold shoulder most of the night.
Not a friendly group at all, but like I said it may have been a winding up and closing down meeting.
They could have talked to us and told us the Club was closing down.

Good to hear someone may start it up again and I wish you all the best.:niceone:

[shrub]

I went to one of the (last?) Christchurch meeting to rejoin and they were far from interested in me or my mate to join. (been over sea's)
:

Still no reply - I'm not inspired to get involved with a pressure group that is that slack during a period when motorcyclists are being shafted. They may be busy or on holiday, but I believe there is a degree of urgency so by the end of this month I'll have something up and running.

[zzzz]

Still no reply

Bugger I thought it was only the CHCH branch that had got slack.
Maybe they need their monthly meeting, to beable, to do anything?

[zzzz]

Still no contact from BRONZ?
Would be good to get a CHCH Branch up and going again.

[caseye]

Ring Ixion, ask him whats involved, then Do IT!
Simple really, talking and not doing achieves nothing, if you are keen enough it'll work.Give it a try, what to lose? besides our basic freedom to ride on roads and be treated the same as any other road user.