Ohlins 30mm Cartridge Kit

[Cajun]

Looks like ohlins has moved across to 30mm cartridge over the 25mm.

And also moved to the r1 style with with left fork compression, and right fork rebound.

With all adjustments are made on top of the fork rather than top and bottom.

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs048.snc3/13566_335146195563_327276760563_9907702_3843956_n. jpg

[NZsarge]

Hmm, what would those cost he said wondering out loud....

[Cajun]

Hmm, what would those cost he said wondering out loud....

cheaper then current cartridges or so i am lead to believe, but in turn they do not come with springs, you have to by the spring that suits you better. But the overall cost is meant to be cheaper then current kits.

[NZsarge]

cheaper then current cartridges or so i am lead to believe, but in turn they do not come with springs, you have to by the spring that suits you better. But the overall cost is meant to be cheaper then current kits.
Ok, good to know, well it would be if I knew what the current ones cost.. :laugh:

[Sensei]

If your bike doesn't have Ohlins standard , I believe they are around 3k for a set there abouts .

[Robert Taylor]

If your bike doesn't have Ohlins standard , I believe they are around 3k for a set there abouts .

No they will be much cheaper. Currently pre production / prototype units being used by Craig Shirriffs. In 25mm guise we have used this independent system since Paeroa with Craig and Hayden. Also Stroud, Bugden, Skatchill, Terry Fitz. The results speak for themselves.
As an aside as the official Ohlins distributor we only use GENUINE Ohlins valving shims and setting components. If you are using someone else ( NOT accredited to Ohlins ) ask why he is using shims of lower quality and finish ( locally made ) It will be because of a lower purchase price and more profit, these shims would fail quality control at Ohlins. Immoral...

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Here are some more pics -

[JD Racing]

No they will be much cheaper. Currently pre production / prototype units being used by Craig Shirriffs. In 25mm guise we have used this independent system since Paeroa with Craig and Hayden. Also Stroud, Bugden, Skatchill, Terry Fitz. The results speak for themselves.
As an aside as the official Ohlins distributor we only use GENUINE Ohlins valving shims and setting components. If you are using someone else ( NOT accredited to Ohlins ) ask why he is using shims of lower quality and finish ( locally made ) It will be because of a lower purchase price and more profit, these shims would fail quality control at Ohlins. Immoral...

They'd want to be a lot cheaper, half the parts found in a normal cartridge are missing and Soqi have done the development work.
Yet again Ohlins dumb down the suspension and call it progress, the whole part of the system that meters rod displacement has been consigned to the bin, the multiple compression tuning variables that were available have been reduced to a single midvalve, even Racetech do not consider this to be sufficient.

I'm in a world of moral confusion, constantly I read how riders buying things themselves from overseas is morally corrupt, stealing the food off honest hard working Kiwi's plates, then the next minute a guy using locally sourced Kiwi manufactured shims is immoral, he should be importing them from Sweden, I'm all conflicted, what's a guy to do for the best?

[Shaun]

They'd want to be a lot cheaper, half the parts found in a normal cartridge are missing and Soqi have done the development work.
Yet again Ohlins dumb down the suspension and call it progress, the whole part of the system that meters rod displacement has been consigned to the bin, the multiple compression tuning variables that were available have been reduced to a single midvalve, even Racetech do not consider this to be sufficient.

I'm in a world of moral confusion, constantly I read how riders buying things themselves from overseas is morally corrupt, stealing the food off honest hard working Kiwi's plates, then the next minute a guy using locally sourced Kiwi manufactured shims is immoral, he should be importing them from Sweden, I'm all conflicted, what's a guy to do for the best?




what's a guy to do for the best?[/QUOTE]


Stay off the Internet probally Ha Ha Ha

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Yet again Ohlins dumb down the suspension and call it progress, the whole part of the system that meters rod displacement has been consigned to the bin, the multiple compression tuning variables that were available have been reduced to a single midvalve, even Racetech do not consider this to be sufficient.
It seemed to work well for Yamaha in WSS.

I would assume that any company is always looking to move forward. Ohlins had previously taken other steps to eliminate the cross talk between the circuits and now this is their latest evolution.

Another benefit is that it is much quicker to alter the valving than a traditionally configured cartridge.

[Bren_chch]

It seemed to work well for Yamaha in WSS.

I would assume that any company is always looking to move forward. Ohlins had previously taken other steps to eliminate the cross talk between the circuits and now this is their latest evolution.

Another benefit is that it is much quicker to alter the valving than a traditionally configured cartridge.

Is WP run much over there or has it been?

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Is WP run much over there or has it been?
I know WP was pretty big in WSS a few years ago but I believe the majority of the teams migrated over to Ohlins.

WP doesn't really have a presence over here in the US. The only ones I can recall using them was the factory Kawasaki team in the early 2000's when KMC signed a deal with them to do all their racing stuff. That was when they were running their humongous tube all aluminum forks.

[Bren_chch]

interesting info, thanks.

[JD Racing]

It seemed to work well for Yamaha in WSS.

I would assume that any company is always looking to move forward. Ohlins had previously taken other steps to eliminate the cross talk between the circuits and now this is their latest evolution.

Another benefit is that it is much quicker to alter the valving than a traditionally configured cartridge.

You've read the marketing material on cross talk, now explain to us all how that works.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

You've read the marketing material on cross talk, now explain to us all how that works.
I haven't read any marketing material at all on this but would be interested to see it so if you have some I would appreciate you forwarding it to me.

As for how it works, there is a delay in the compression stack opening due to a pressure loss caused by the fluid flowing through the low speed rebound circuit. In the past Ohlins had taken steps to isolate the circuits by redesigning their rebound holders so they did not flow through the shaft but through holes added at the base of the rebound holder. These holes were closed by a check plate when the fork compressed.

As has been discussed on here in multiple threads, the check plate and spring (which you are a fan of) or a mid valve (which Robert is a fan of) is used to provide damping at these lower cartridge pressures but from what I have read from various internet sources is that this is more of a compromise than an ideal solution.

Of course there would be a delay in pressure build up when the fork extends also, but from what I see more attention is being paid to the compression damping than with the rebound damping.

It is my belief that this design in Ohlins next step forward as I would not think that it is their intention to move backwards.

I will admit right up front that I am not on your or Robert's level and have a lot to learn, but I do try to improve my knowledge every chance I get so please correct me where I am wrong.

[roogazza]

It seemed to work well for Yamaha in WSS.

I would assume that any company is always looking to move forward. Ohlins had previously taken other steps to eliminate the cross talk between the circuits and now this is their latest evolution.

Another benefit is that it is much quicker to alter the valving than a traditionally configured cartridge.

Forgive my very limited knowledge here, but is this 'cross talk' you speak of, where you adjust rebound by say 5 clicks and this at the same time affects compression by approx 1 click ? I think I have read this somewhere. G.

[Robert Taylor]

They'd want to be a lot cheaper, half the parts found in a normal cartridge are missing and Soqi have done the development work.
Yet again Ohlins dumb down the suspension and call it progress, the whole part of the system that meters rod displacement has been consigned to the bin, the multiple compression tuning variables that were available have been reduced to a single midvalve, even Racetech do not consider this to be sufficient.

I'm in a world of moral confusion, constantly I read how riders buying things themselves from overseas is morally corrupt, stealing the food off honest hard working Kiwi's plates, then the next minute a guy using locally sourced Kiwi manufactured shims is immoral, he should be importing them from Sweden, I'm all conflicted, what's a guy to do for the best?

We have been using this system in 25mm guise for nearly a year and now in 30mm guise. The results speak for themselves with lap records, race wins and championships. Hard experience and results. In Australia the new Superbike champion uses this system. Developed by Soqi, no. I think Im a little bit closer to the Ohlins factory than you when it comes to information.
If you doubt this system I can find a lot of riders using this system who will very emphatically attest otherwise. Including Andrew Stroud and Craig Shirriffs who both broke lap records this last weekend.

Im not confused, when you divulge information and then the same guy chooses to use inarguably inferior shims then yes that is immoral.

[Robert Taylor]

It seemed to work well for Yamaha in WSS.

I would assume that any company is always looking to move forward. Ohlins had previously taken other steps to eliminate the cross talk between the circuits and now this is their latest evolution.

Another benefit is that it is much quicker to alter the valving than a traditionally configured cartridge.

Yep, youre on the money and it works VERY well!

[Robert Taylor]

Forgive my very limited knowledge here, but is this 'cross talk' you speak of, where you adjust rebound by say 5 clicks and this at the same time affects compression by approx 1 click ? I think I have read this at some time. G.

Cross talking is completely eliminated with this system. There are other forms of cross talk, mainly human.

[roogazza]

Cross talking is completely eliminated with this system. There are other forms of cross talk, mainly human.

Ok ,thanks , so I'm sort of on the right track ?!! G.

[JD Racing]

Yankee, take a bottle of fork fluid, pour out half the contents, put the lid back on, now shake the bottle up and down for say 20 minutes, that should replicate the average sprint race. Pour it in a glass vessel, how's it look, what viscosity is that, has it remained constant for the past 20 minutes?
Now explain to me how this new 30mm system adresses that fundamental problem of open bath forks. All the WSS teams with access to Ohlins top draw components were using the pressurised TTX cartridge, Robert told us about this at the begining of 2009, if they'd launched that then that would be a step forward. Ohlins went to pressurised superbike forks years ago, all motox fork manufacturers make a pressurised fork, K-Tech, WP, Bitubo, Traxxion, all make a pressurised cartridge for street forks.

The reduced pressure differential across the 30mm piston goes some way to alleviating the risk of cavitation but as only one leg does the damping you have to make the stack much stiffer so you still have to consider the risk, pressurising the cartridge would eliminate that.

[JD Racing]

Cross talking is completely eliminated with this system. There are other forms of cross talk, mainly human.

The bleeds would have to differ from the Soqi and be one way valves then, how big a problem was cross talk, should Pussy be worried about his outdated conventional system?

Sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me, strange how Kayaba eliminated the very same thing in about 1991-92 on the ZXR400.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

All the WSS teams with access to Ohlins top draw components were using the pressurised TTX cartridge, Robert told us about this at the begining of 2009, if they'd launched that then that would be a step forward.
I was not aware they were gas charged cartridges, but they still use the single valve configuration in those forks.



Ohlins went to pressurised superbike forks years ago, all motox fork manufacturers make a pressurised fork, K-Tech, WP, Bitubo, Traxxion, all make a pressurised cartridge for street forks.
I saw K-Tech produced a complete fork that pressurizes the cartridge by using a spring but have not seen any pressurized cartridges. K-Tech is not really too big here in the US.

I have seen pics of WP's funky looking sealed cartridge but again, WP is not popular over here.

I saw a set of Bitubo's gas charged forks at a track one day. They were put on a bike for the bling effect. As it looked like they used conduit for the gas reservoir tubes I was not all that impressed with them but I have no idea how well they function. To my knowledge, Bitubo isn't really all that popular anywhere.

I am aware of Traxxions replacement gas cartridge but do not have any personal experience with it, but have not heard any negative comments about the damping.

It would be nice for Ohlins to have released a pressurized 30mm cartridge kit. Why stop there though? Why just settle for their pressurized cartridge when they have a pressurized cartridge that utilizes a through rod design they are using in the Yamaha MotoGP bikes?

Ohlins could release what they want, but realistically how many do you think they would sell? As Ohlins is a business and not a "not for profit entity" they also consider the profitability factor. There is a reason why McDonalds makes more money per year than the best steakhouse chains.

[Shaun]

Yankee, Very good reply mate, Ohlin's can do what ever they want to, but imagine all the internet hero's having a WHINGE about the price if they did:Pokey:

MotoGP this and that, yea write, who the hell is going to spend that kind of money on there Road BIKE

The 30mm kit Robert talks about, is by far the very very best feal I have ever had on the breakes, ( This makes it safer and more ridable, well done Ohlin's) I guess as one leg does compression the other rebound, " The CROSS TALK" is seriously reduced, as each leg is doing it's own job!

Yea there will be some form of Viscosity, but when the fork is only doing one function, ( So oil NOT being forced in all directions through tiny holes and past a pile of shims) this slight disturbance to the oil, is Not going to be fealt by the rider/pilot.

As well all know, good fast safe riding, comes down to feal the bike has, the 30mm has the feal

" JD QUOTE" The reduced pressure differential across the 30mm piston goes some way to alleviating the risk of cavitation. 100% agree!

JD, your discription of take a bottle and half empty it, really is a short cut of the facts mate, you know that a fork works nothing like that with it's inner internals, for a start, having a massive shim stack in it, will help reduce/eliminate the effect you are talking about, " You take the same bottle, and only poor out 25% of it, and shake it again. Lordy lordy, only half the bubbles now"

I always was in Robert's face to build me shim stacks with a lot more than reccomeneded, I believed and still do, that control is all about flow rate, so I prefer a lot more thinner and narrower shims, than the base reccomened settings, believing that having more interfairence with the shim stack, would help eliminate the viscosity for a start, so I guess the idea of one leg doing one job and the other the Tother is proof to me that my thoughts of lots of shims were correct.

[Pussy]

The bleeds would have to differ from the Soqi and be one way valves then, how big a problem was cross talk, should Pussy be worried about his outdated conventional system?



Nope.... Pussy is delighted with the "conventional" system on his bike! :niceone:
Whilst I can appreciate there are many factors/theories/fluid dynamics considerations etc that affect fork operation.... one must NEVER forget that suspension feel is quite a personal thing, too.
To that end, what I've got now "does it" for me. Works spot on

[Tony.OK]

This jar theory.................by fitting bigger cartridges, that doesn't mean the air volume is suddenly bigger does it, less oil maybe but the missing oil is taken up by more hard parts.................so instead of half emptying the jar, we are putting a solid in to lessen the fluid volume, now shake it and there won't be much difference.

Surely a one way valve with larger return ports would cause alot less cavitation than a two way system, and also cause less frictional heat build up as a by product, thus remaining more stable temp wise.

Do seperate damping cartidges compensate for not being pressurized because of the much lessened oil disturbance from smaller 2 way valving forces.....................?

[Pussy]

Not saying this is the case with Ohlins NIX 30mm cartridges... but sometimes what is "in vogue" isn't necessarily just the duck's guts.
Several years ago I had Traxxion kits fitted to my K1 GSX-R1000 (the same kits went in to my K3). Short top out springs were flavour of the day. In my opinion, they sucked! Contrary to the belief of some, I don't hang on every word of the experts. So I asked RT to get rid of the short top out springs he had fitted. There was a bit of "are you sure you really want this?" asked of me, but I wanted the longer stock ones back in, so that's what I got.
Some time later short springs went out of favour.
I'm no expert rider, but DO know what I like the handling characteristics of my bike to feel like.
Don't be afraid to tell your suspension guy what you want!


Edit: I haven't ridden on the 30mm cartridges yet.... and I'm NOT a racer.
Hopefully I will get the opportunity to try them in a "road" application

[Shaun]

Not saying this is the case with Ohlins NIX 30mm cartridges... but sometimes what is "in vogue" isn't necessarily just the duck's guts.
Several years ago I had Traxxion kits fitted to my K1 GSX-R1000 (the same kits went in to my K3). Short top out springs were flavour of the day. In my opinion, they sucked! Contrary to the belief of some, I don't hang on every word of the experts. So I asked RT to get rid of the short top out springs he had fitted. There was a bit of "are you sure you really want this?" asked of me, but I wanted the longer stock ones back in, so that's what I got.
Some time later short springs went out of favour.
I'm no expert rider, but DO know what I like the handling characteristics of my bike to feel like.
Don't be afraid to tell your suspension guy what you want!


Edit: I haven't ridden on the 30mm cartridges yet.... and I'm NOT a racer.
Hopefully I will get the opportunity to try them in a "road" application


30mm kit, Febuary you will get to try a set from one of my race bikes, since we are local

[Pussy]

30mm kit, Febuary you will get to try a set from one of my race bikes, since we are local

Cheers, Shaun.... I look forward to it!
A lot of my thoughts are based on "the best you've ridden on is the best you know"

[roogazza]

I guess as one leg does compression the other rebound, " The CROSS TALK" is seriously reduced, as each leg is doing it's own job!

Seriously reduced ? You mean eliminated don't you ? G.

[Shaun]

Cheers, Shaun.... I look forward to it!
A lot of my thoughts are based on "the best you've ridden on is the best you know"



O dear then, you better be getting your cheque book ready then.

What you have is great, but the 30 is better:2thumbsup

[Pussy]

O dear then, you better be getting your cheque book ready then.

What you have is great, but the 30 is better:2thumbsup

We'll see!
Although you know how I have based my opinion.... there has been one hell of a lot of differing set-ups I've tried!
Others may disagree.... but I reckon that bending shim stack mid-valve rocks!


Edit: I'll try the 30s with an open mind! :niceone:

[JD Racing]

Yankee, Very good reply mate, Ohlin's can do what ever they want to, but imagine all the internet hero's having a WHINGE about the price if they did:Pokey:

MotoGP this and that, yea write, who the hell is going to spend that kind of money on there Road BIKE

The 30mm kit Robert talks about, is by far the very very best feal I have ever had on the breakes, ( This makes it safer and more ridable, well done Ohlin's) I guess as one leg does compression the other rebound, " The CROSS TALK" is seriously reduced, as each leg is doing it's own job!

Yea there will be some form of Viscosity, but when the fork is only doing one function, ( So oil NOT being forced in all directions through tiny holes and past a pile of shims) this slight disturbance to the oil, is Not going to be fealt by the rider/pilot.

As well all know, good fast safe riding, comes down to feal the bike has, the 30mm has the feal

" JD QUOTE" The reduced pressure differential across the 30mm piston goes some way to alleviating the risk of cavitation. 100% agree!

JD, your discription of take a bottle and half empty it, really is a short cut of the facts mate, you know that a fork works nothing like that with it's inner internals, for a start, having a massive shim stack in it, will help reduce/eliminate the effect you are talking about, " You take the same bottle, and only poor out 25% of it, and shake it again. Lordy lordy, only half the bubbles now"

I always was in Robert's face to build me shim stacks with a lot more than reccomeneded, I believed and still do, that control is all about flow rate, so I prefer a lot more thinner and narrower shims, than the base reccomened settings, believing that having more interfairence with the shim stack, would help eliminate the viscosity for a start, so I guess the idea of one leg doing one job and the other the Tother is proof to me that my thoughts of lots of shims were correct.

Shaun, you appear to have little idea on how a fork functions, you quote a term you've heard here without knowing what it is and say it's reduced, what is CROSS TALK and what problems has it been giving you, how have your lap times been hampered by it?
As Pussy quite rightly says his forks are not giving him any problems, I've yet to read a post by him where he says that every time he adjusts the compression he has to compensate with the rebound or vice versa.

If oil was only flowing in one direction your forks wouldn't work, you've got the idea of the functions being seperated all wrong.

The lumps of metal inside a fork are not passive, they are constantly cycling up and down, squeezing fluid through orifices, spraying it through jets, flowing it round and round, it's not a static cup subjected to a little vibration. Having a bigger cartridge, more metal inside the forks etc, etc has no effect on the aeration of the fluid, it's going to get aerated, the amount of aeration directly impacts the viscosity of the fluid, the aeration is not a constant equal factor, it's changing all the time giving an inconsistent damping action.

What does that last paragrah mean?

In building this cartridge Ohlins have removed the complete compression assembly, have a look at all the components that make up that assembly, the machining involved, the materials, the assembly time, they could easily have made a gas reservoir and associated components to make the 30mm gas pressurised for the same cost as the 25, enterprising suspension companies I suspect will be doing exactly that.

[Bren_chch]

this thread is awesome, keep the education coming! :cool:

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

they could easily have made a gas reservoir and associated components to make the 30mm gas pressurised for the same cost as the 25
Just out of curiosity, what are people buying Ohlins 25mm cartridges where you are for?

MSRP over here is something like $1800 USD but no one was buying them. Now they are being sold for $1k USD or less and they are moving pretty quick. People are buying them used for around $600 USD.

I don't see Ohlins selling a gas charged cartridge to their distributors who are then going to turn around and re-sell it to their customers for close to that price.

[Shaun]

Guess I better sit down and shut up then

[JD Racing]

Just out of curiosity, what are people buying Ohlins 25mm cartridges where you are for?

MSRP over here is something like $1800 USD but no one was buying them. Now they are being sold for $1k USD or less and they are moving pretty quick. People are buying them used for around $600 USD.

I don't see Ohlins selling a gas charged cartridge to their distributors who are then going to turn around and re-sell it to their customers for close to that price.

Were they not selling or were the distributers blowing out old stock to make way for the 30mm? The list of the kits being sold at a discount seems to match the 30mm application list pretty well.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

T
he list of the kits being sold at a discount seems to match the 30mm application list pretty well.
There was no list, it was all applications as long as inventory lasted.

They weren't selling and they would not sell at $1800 USD.

The average club racer can get his stock cartridges re-valved and re-sprung for around $600 to $700 depending on who does it and what parts get put in. You can purchase Traxxion 20mm cartridges for under $1000. That average club racer is not going to go any faster by spending another $1k+ on a set of Ohlins cartridges with out of the box valving and poor support from Ohlins US.

[PeeJay]

There was no list, it was all applications as long as inventory lasted.

They weren't selling and they would not sell at $1800 USD.

The average club racer can get his stock cartridges re-valved and re-sprung for around $600 to $700 depending on who does it and what parts get put in. You can purchase Traxxion 20mm cartridges for under $1000. That average club racer is not going to go any faster by spending another $1k+ on a set of Ohlins cartridges with out of the box valving and poor support from Ohlins US.

Careful......

[Rcktfsh]

Guess I better sit down and shut up then

can you post video eveidence

[Robert Taylor]

Guess I better sit down and shut up then

No need to shut up Shaun. Even though JT made some valid points so did you. Its interesting that comments made are deficient of practical experience with this system. Yes they could be pressurised but just imagine that given the ''I can do it aproach'' how many would get serviced incorrectly. That is not justification in itself but Ohlins is a very successful company despite all the naysayers.
Aso know Superbike, 600 and Formula 3 TRI series all used this system, in 25mm guise.

[Robert Taylor]

The bleeds would have to differ from the Soqi and be one way valves then, how big a problem was cross talk, should Pussy be worried about his outdated conventional system?

Sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me, strange how Kayaba eliminated the very same thing in about 1991-92 on the ZXR400.

The bleed circuits do not have to be checkvalved, think about it and the mass flow of the refill ports.

[Robert Taylor]

Were they not selling or were the distributers blowing out old stock to make way for the 30mm? The list of the kits being sold at a discount seems to match the 30mm application list pretty well.

That is EXACTLY what is happening, blowing out old stock. But then you are also buying something that is out of date performance wise.

[Robert Taylor]

To the gutless Tag Line person, how can Ohlins = ripoff when their net profit is 7% ??????

[Robert Taylor]

There was no list, it was all applications as long as inventory lasted.

They weren't selling and they would not sell at $1800 USD.

The average club racer can get his stock cartridges re-valved and re-sprung for around $600 to $700 depending on who does it and what parts get put in. You can purchase Traxxion 20mm cartridges for under $1000. That average club racer is not going to go any faster by spending another $1k+ on a set of Ohlins cartridges with out of the box valving and poor support from Ohlins US.

But with excellent Ohlins backup support and personalised setup they can indeed go faster. It seems many of your countrymen like to discount them around the world but backup is an unknown commodity even in your own country! I know your thoughts on this subject are similiar and very perceptive.
If Traxxion installed a decent rebound piston in their cartridges theyd work a whole lot better on that score alone, but 20mm is way outdated for ultimate performance. They just dont push enough fluid.

[Robert Taylor]

No need to shut up Shaun. Even though JT made some valid points so did you. Its interesting that comments made are deficient of practical experience with this system. Yes they could be pressurised but just imagine that given the ''I can do it aproach'' how many would get serviced incorrectly. That is not justification in itself but Ohlins is a very successful company despite all the naysayers.
Aso know Superbike, 600 and Formula 3 TRI series all used this system, in 25mm guise.

Rewrite last sentence, all Tri Series champions as listed. Superbike, 600, Formula 3. Note they all used genuine Ohlins pistons and shims.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

But with excellent Ohlins backup support and personalised setup they can indeed go faster. It seems many of your countrymen like to discount them around the world but backup is an unknown commodity even in your own country! I know your thoughts on this subject are similiar and very perceptive.
My countryman just sell them for X amount of dollars. They don't care where you are from, they just want to pay their bills.

We do have one Ohlins retailer that cried like a baby when people all over the forums were buying their shocks offshore for hundreds less. He pushed for Ohlins to tell them to stop selling to people outside their country and pushed for them not to warranty anything in the states. Now years later that same person brags about how much Ohlins product he exports.

Getting back to suspension, it has always been my belief that if you are incapable of doing the work yourself then your best bet is to go with who is going to give you the best level of support.




If Traxxion installed a decent rebound piston in their cartridges theyd work a whole lot better on that score alone, but 20mm is way outdated for ultimate performance. They just dont push enough fluid.
I am sorry that I did not make my point clear when I mentioned Traxxion's cartridges. It has nothing to do with anything technical. It comes down to pricing. Traxxion sells a drop in cartridge for less than $1k USD and that has set the market value for replacement cartridges at around that price. It doesn't matter if one is better than the other, bike people never have any trouble talking themselves into going with the cheaper of two options.

[Pussy]

It doesn't matter if one is better than the other, bike people never have any trouble talking themselves into going with the cheaper of two options.

I had NO trouble talking myself out of AK20s and in to Ohlins 25mm cartridges!

[Tony.OK]

I had NO trouble talking myself out of AK20s and in to Ohlins 25mm cartridges!

Thats because you're a rich Pilot:whistle:

Nah they seriously are like night and day when ridden back to back..............comes back to "best ya know"

[Robert Taylor]

Thats because you're a rich Pilot:whistle:

Nah they seriously are like night and day when ridden back to back..............comes back to "best ya know"

Rich? Top dressing pilots are seriouisly underpaid for the nonsense they have to put up with both above ground and on the ground.
Tony, the new system works even better, ask Craig Shirriffs for one.

[Tony.OK]

Rich? Top dressing pilots are seriouisly underpaid for the nonsense they have to put up with both above ground and on the ground.
Tony, the new system works even better, ask Craig Shirriffs for one.

Top dressing........................thats when they dress up in a skirt and do some powder puffing in the air ain't it?

Ask Craig?......................he'll just say I'm soft and slow for not going faster (he'd be right too).

I'll take your word for it Dr Bob............I'm gettin outta this racin malarky, not enough incoming to cover the outgoing = messed up head!

[Pussy]

Top dressing........................thats when they dress up in a skirt and do some powder puffing in the air ain't it?



We're not ALL honda riders, you know......

[Bren_chch]

That is EXACTLY what is happening, blowing out old stock. But then you are also buying something that is out of date performance wise.

if it (25mm) was good enuff for bugden, stroud and the other top guys then its good enuff for me even if it is out of date! lol

for bugger all US$ right now you can get a package deal which is the front 25mm kit and a tts rear! wish i knew this was coming, i just spent A LOT more on local goods.

[Sensei]

I quess in 2months time even the 30mm stuff will be obsolete gear & a newer suspension system will be offered

[JD Racing]

http://bitubo-raceservice.blogspot.com/2009/12/bitubo-2010-ech-cartridges.html

The same cartridges in these forks are available for street forks:
http://www.superbike.co.uk/products/hardware/New_KTech_DDS_KTR3_forks_in_WSB_and_BSB_news_28651 1.html

http://www.k-tech.uk.com/feature.php?features_category_type=road&id=2370

http://www.wpsuspension-usa.com/closedcartridge.htm


http://traxxionstore.com/detail-2.aspx

even mountain bikes have pressurised forks:
http://www.bosmtb.com/MTB2/idylleprofiche.html

[Pussy]

My observations of the 30mm users at Taupo were that they seemed to perform well!
Will be interesting to see how they go/feel in a "road" application

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

http://bitubo-raceservice.blogspot.com/2009/12/bitubo-2010-ech-cartridges.html

The same cartridges in these forks are available for street forks:
http://www.superbike.co.uk/products/hardware/New_KTech_DDS_KTR3_forks_in_WSB_and_BSB_news_28651 1.html

http://www.k-tech.uk.com/feature.php?features_category_type=road&id=2370

http://www.wpsuspension-usa.com/closedcartridge.htm


http://traxxionstore.com/detail-2.aspx

even mountain bikes have pressurised forks:
http://www.bosmtb.com/MTB2/idylleprofiche.html

Holy shite, those caps on the Bitubo cartridges have to be worth a second alone.

I don't think anyone would disagree that pressurizing the cartridge is beneficial BUT that is only one piece of the puzzle.

How many national championships did all those companies win in 2009?
How many lap records did they smash in 2009?

[Shaun]

if it (25mm) was good enuff for bugden, stroud and the other top guys then its good enuff for me even if it is out of date! lol

for bugger all US$ right now you can get a package deal which is the front 25mm kit and a tts rear! wish i knew this was coming, i just spent A LOT more on local goods.

Buying off shore will save you a few dollars it seems, But where off shore can you get the service that CKT offers to there NZ Customers?

You only have to read Yankee's comments about the service industry in the states, bloody shocking!

I have been told by a person I trust, that a basic comp stack up grade modification at the race track can cost you up to $450-00 US$ Blatent rip off that is

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

I have been told by a person I trust, that a basic comp stack up grade modification at the race track can cost you up to $450-00 US$ Blatent rip off that is
For that much I would guess that must include replacing the valves. I have fiddled with about 4 sets of 25mm cartridges, including one for an 08 model bike and yet to see a rebound assembly that uses a mid-valve arrangement.

[Pussy]

if it (25mm) was good enuff for bugden, stroud and the other top guys then its good enuff for me even if it is out of date! lol

for bugger all US$ right now you can get a package deal which is the front 25mm kit and a tts rear! wish i knew this was coming, i just spent A LOT more on local goods.
Ah yes... but you will only get them "as delivered".
The springs and valving in my FGK cartridges are ALL different to the "as delivered" spec. RT makes sure they are set up for YOU as part of his service.

[Robert Taylor]

I quess in 2months time even the 30mm stuff will be obsolete gear & a newer suspension system will be offered

Thats pretty cynical Scott! Progress is relentless ( as it jolly well should be ) but not quite at that pace, excepting at the very very sharp end of MotoGP and WSBK. Where also big budgets exist to fund same.

[Robert Taylor]

Then all of the cartridges that you have seen are first generation, all the later model Ohlins cartridges that precede new 30mm used bending shim stack midvalves. We sold out of the first generation ones at least 3 years back and have updated ever since.

[Robert Taylor]

Ah yes... but you will only get them "as delivered".
The springs and valving in my FGK cartridges are ALL different to the "as delivered" spec. RT makes sure they are set up for YOU as part of his service.

Springs and valving are indeed customised to the individual rider and application. If he / she is dissatisfied we change it until they are. We also do not bastardise with non Ohlins pistons and lower quality valving shims, there is no need.

[Robert Taylor]

if it (25mm) was good enuff for bugden, stroud and the other top guys then its good enuff for me even if it is out of date! lol

for bugger all US$ right now you can get a package deal which is the front 25mm kit and a tts rear! wish i knew this was coming, i just spent A LOT more on local goods.

For what model and year of bike?

[Sensei]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;Thats pretty cynical Scott! Progress is relentless ( as it jolly well should be ) but not quite at that pace, excepting at the very very sharp end of MotoGP and WSBK. Where also big budgets exist to fund same.[/QUOTE]

" Cynical " my motive is neither bad or selfish Robert just my own veiw & my opinion . From the rate that you change suspenion spec's from one week to the next , it is fair to say even from what you have done for my Ohlins since I have paid you to change it from one spec to the next as new & better modifiction's have become available .

[Shaun]

Had a private joke with some one about suspension yesterday who reads this thread " I won it"

[White trash]

Had a private joke with some one about suspension yesterday who reads this thread " I won it"

How the fuck do you win a joke?

[Rcktfsh]

How the fuck do you win a joke?

not like he's the competitive type

[JD Racing]

Springs and valving are indeed customised to the individual rider and application. If he / she is dissatisfied we change it until they are. We also do not bastardise with non Ohlins pistons and lower quality valving shims, there is no need.

Just how bad are these shims? Shim manufacture is not rocket science, Bohler Uddeholm have a vast range of shim steel, as long as you get the correct edge profile your done.

[Bren_chch]

Just how bad are these shims? Shim manufacture is not rocket science, Bohler Uddeholm have a vast range of shim steel, as long as you get the correct edge profile your done.

actually i wanted to ask this, how can shim quality be so different?

[Shaun]

not like he's the competitive type




sez u with a Degree now

[Rcktfsh]

sez u with a Degree now

I was as suprised as a very suprised person when i opened up the cereal packet and found it in there.

[Robert Taylor]

Just how bad are these shims? Shim manufacture is not rocket science, Bohler Uddeholm have a vast range of shim steel, as long as you get the correct edge profile your done.

If they turned up at Ohlins they would be rejected by their quality control department ( I have seen this department a number of times and know how it operates ) 100% certainty. They scrutinise incoming parts from sub contractors much more so than many other manufacturers, especially if its a new supplier.
With shims its not so much a matter of the material it is the cut and finish and as you say edge profile.
As the approved Ohlins distributor to NZ we are not going to lower our standards to increase profit, simple. Moreover we loyally support our supplier, loyalty is a big thing with some businesses, still.

[Robert Taylor]

Just how bad are these shims? Shim manufacture is not rocket science, Bohler Uddeholm have a vast range of shim steel, as long as you get the correct edge profile your done.

BTW you dont say where you are from?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????
Im sure more than a few readers would care to confirm your authenticity.

[White trash]

BTW you dont say where you are from?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????
Im sure more than a few readers would care to confirm your authenticity.

Bohler Uddeholm are represented in almost every country except New Zealand or Africa so I'd hazard a 50/50 guess where he's not :D

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

BTW you dont say where you are from?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????
Im sure more than a few readers would care to confirm your authenticity.
I am still waiting to hear about all the race wins, championships, and lap record set with all those gas charged cartridges that were listed in a previous post.

Just so we are all on the same page, I judge how well things work by lap times. Faster lap times = success. Slower lap times = fail, no matter how cool/trick/awesome/expensive the part(s) are.

[JD Racing]

I am still waiting to hear about all the race wins, championships, and lap record set with all those gas charged cartridges that were listed in a previous post.

Just so we are all on the same page, I judge how well things work by lap times. Faster lap times = success. Slower lap times = fail, no matter how cool/trick/awesome/expensive the part(s) are.

Yup all those companies are epic fails, sure their CEO's struggle to sleep at night because your not aware of what they do.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Yup all those companies are epic fails, sure their CEO's struggle to sleep at night because your not aware of what they do.
Their CEO's should struggle to sleep at night due to their epic failure to properly promote their vastly superior gas charged product which has in turn kept them from topping the Fortune 500 list and in turn making Ohlins a thing of the past.

[Shaun]

Their CEO's should struggle to sleep at night due to their epic failure to properly promote their vastly superior gas charged product which has in turn kept them from topping the Fortune 500 list and in turn making Ohlins a thing of the past.





Ha ha, it sounds like you are working for CKT now. Nice to see a bit of humor on here some times, instead of the I know more attitude that is appearing a lot lately

[Robert Taylor]

I know personally which gas cartridges are the best, Ohlins and WP. We have used one of those with race wins lap records and championship but on our tracks and with the limitations of having to use overly flimsy stock outer and inner tubes I would have to say the advantage is minimal if anything. The stock fork outers become the biggest end limitation. Also there are backward looking people in this country who have tried to ban anything aftermarket , thats another issue to contend with.
Have also tried the Traxxion ones but they are limited by being only 20mm and I wont comment again about the rebound pistons.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Ha ha, it sounds like you are working for CKT now.

Well I could use a job, maybe you could put in a good word.



Nice to see a bit of humor on here some times, instead of the I know more attitude that is appearing a lot lately
A pressurized system reduces cavitation. Reducing cavitation is good. Just because you pressurize your cartridge doesn't automatically make your system good.

[Pussy]

I see K-Tech in the UK have put out a kit for the GSX-R1000 K9 onwards...
Converts the BPF to one side comp, one side rebound.
Looks like this is the new trend

[Kickaha]

I see K-Tech in the UK have put out a kit for the GSX-R1000 K9 onwards...
Converts the BPF to one side comp, one side rebound.
Looks like this is the new trend

It isn't a new idea though Marzocchi were doing compression and rebound in different sides back in the mid eighties in the M1R forks

[gatch]

Would having compression and rebound in one leg only, load up wheel bearing and triple clamps unevenly ?

Probably not enough to be of concern ?

[Robert Taylor]

With the clamping area and axle sizes in modern bikes no.

[Robert Taylor]

Well I could use a job, maybe you could put in a good word.


A pressurized system reduces cavitation. Reducing cavitation is good. Just because you pressurize your cartridge doesn't automatically make your system good.

Exactly. Moreover, Ohlins are likely also mindful of ease of service at racing levels a few steps down off the world stage where not everybody has a paid suspension tuner on their right arm. Gas charged fork cartridges are more complex and time consuming to service, a whole load less idiotproof and require special service tools. Also with more parts and machining processes required the cost is inevitably higher.
So far the 30mm system shows great promise and we are in the throes of dialing settings for our mix of tracks etc.

[Sensei]

So how far away are a road base set Robert ?

[Robert Taylor]

So how far away are a road base set Robert ?

As time allows to test settings that will likely suit our higher proportion of bumpy roads than the main target markets. When someone buys a set for the road if we can have the bike we will optimise the settings.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Robert, any idea if/when Ohlins is going to start using this system in their new design R&T forks?

[Robert Taylor]

Robert, any idea if/when Ohlins is going to start using this system in their new design R&T forks?

The current setting options for 30mm are realistically all road race and track day specific. A 30mm piston for any given movement displaces about 44% more fluid than in a 25mm system. Here in NZ we are the first distributor racing with these ( pole positions and race wins already ) but as with new stuff we take time to get the feel of it and to find the sweet spot, specific to the idiosyncracies of our own circuits and to the biological component of every bike.
For now I see Ohlins sticking with the well developed 25mm for their fork units. But 30mm is showing great promise.

[slowpoke]

I see K-Tech in the UK have put out a kit for the GSX-R1000 K9 onwards...
Converts the BPF to one side comp, one side rebound.
Looks like this is the new trend

It's funny how this is splitting of the functions between left and right legs is seen as a radical advancement when all it comes down to is KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. Why have the complexity and associated cost of manufacturing cartridges that incorporate both functions when a simple effective solution is to split the functions and manufacture 2 different simplified components. Sounds like good engineering and business practice.

[Robert Taylor]

It's funny how this is splitting of the functions between left and right legs is seen as a radical advancement when all it comes down to is KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. Why have the complexity and associated cost of manufacturing cartridges that incorporate both functions when a simple effective solution is to split the functions and manufacture 2 different simplified components. Sounds like good engineering and business practice.

Seperate duties for each leg has been around for a while in a number of forks, its nothing new. But it is now embraced more and more in the racing world. For poor buggers like me its great, total time to revalve ( for example ) a compression fork 15 minutes, and it doesnt have to come out of the bike.
We spend our time doing this work, less time talking.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

A 30mm piston for any given movement displaces about 44% more fluid than in a 25mm system.
Where these fork cartidges are not a threw rod design, how is it displacing 44% more fluid with the same size damping rod?

[Robert Taylor]

Where these fork cartidges are not a threw rod design, how is it displacing 44% more fluid with the same size damping rod?

Ill rephrase that sorry, what the bigger piston size is pushing......

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

Since JD mentioned them -

K-Tech has a new major US distributor and some US teams have partnered with them. It will be interesting to see how things go as the distributor has traditionally has been a drag racing type of business but is branching out to all disciplines of racing.

While I could be wrong, I do not expect any type of real trackside support for K-Tech in the US at this time.

I did find their cartridge offerings to be interesting though:

Sealed cartridge
31mm control pistons
20mm displacement pistons
8mm damping rod

8mm damping rod is smaller than anything else out there to my knowledge.

With the specs listed I am wondering if the cartridge is similiar to a twin chamber cartridge with the smaller cartridge mated to a larger section where the "control valve" is located.

While not as edu-ma-cated as others, I am wondering if they used a 20mm cartridge for quicker response with the larger valve.

Kind of funky looking -

<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Kybyq3n1q3w/S5Kc3LtRviI/AAAAAAAACNA/TV0lDhb_bdI/s400/K-Tech_31mm.jpg" />

I see the top of the cartridge has an o-ring on it which makes me think that the cartridge seals itself against the inside of the fork wall and the they must use a seal at the damping rod like an Ohlins gas charged fork/dirt bike forks.

From the Daytona pics I saw this morning the two small red parts replace the compression adjusters as plugs as they fit flush.

<img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Kybyq3n1q3w/S5KfWVR3jBI/AAAAAAAACNE/70fr9Fm_5N4/s400/IMG_0208.jpg"/>

The spring preload adjusters are two different colors so I am thinking one fork handles compression with the other configured for rebound.

<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Kybyq3n1q3w/S5KfWdMUsOI/AAAAAAAACNI/JI6L4ggXgTo/s400/IMG_0209.jpg"/>

[BMWST?]

Seperate duties for each leg has been around for a while in a number of forks, its nothing new. But it is now embraced more and more in the racing world. For poor buggers like me its great, total time to revalve ( for example ) a compression fork 15 minutes, and it doesnt have to come out of the bike.
We spend our time doing this work, less time talking.

the forks on my ol 1989 r100gs (marzocchis) have rebound in one leg and comp in the other

[Pixie]

This jar theory.................by fitting bigger cartridges, that doesn't mean the air volume is suddenly bigger does it, less oil maybe but the missing oil is taken up by more hard parts.................so instead of half emptying the jar, we are putting a solid in to lessen the fluid volume, now shake it and there won't be much difference.

Surely a one way valve with larger return ports would cause alot less cavitation than a two way system, and also cause less frictional heat build up as a by product, thus remaining more stable temp wise.

Do seperate damping cartidges compensate for not being pressurized because of the much lessened oil disturbance from smaller 2 way valving forces.....................?

True cavitation in suspension dampers is not mixing the gas above the damping fluid with the damping fluid.Cavitation voids are mechanically created vacuum cavities and/or cavities containing vapour of the fluid under the mechanical stress.This happens because the fluid was mechanically depressurised below it's vapour pressure.And this is why gas pressurisation reduces cavitation

[Robert Taylor]

True cavitation in suspension dampers is not mixing the gas above the damping fluid with the damping fluid.Cavitation voids are mechanically created vacuum cavities and/or cavities containing vapour of the fluid under the mechanical stress.This happens because the fluid was mechanically depressurised below it's vapour pressure.And this is why gas pressurisation reduces cavitation

Well said, many fork designs are right on the ragged edge of cavitation and Ive seen a few setting changes carried out that have tipped them over that edge. Very aggressive settings can end up being softer as cavitation is huge.
Gas pressurisation does indeed minimise cavitation, but the amount of pressurisation required is also indicative of how well pressure balanced the unit is. When we are talking shocks its not uncommon to see a pressure of 20 bar in a single tube emulsion shock that lacks an internal base valve and has a very stiff rebound stack to control firm spring rate selection. At the other end of the scale Ohlins TTX36 run at only 6 bar. Ohlins TTX gas motocross fork cartridges run at 5 bar.
The higher the gas pressure you have to run the greater the seal friction can be, something that is often not accorded too much importance.