Average speeds dropping, yet road toll increasing

[riffer]

Interesting.

From the stuff website:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3201429/Speeding-ticket-numbers-down

So, average speeds are down to some of the lowest ever, speed camera tickets have dropped by a quarter, speed is a related factor in only 1 in 6 injury crashes now, down from the 1 in 3 when the speed cameras where introduced...

and the road toll is increasing...

[crazyhorse]

They will need to get revenue up again, so guess they will do WOF and rego checks to make their quotas ............. :rofl: :laugh:

[Conquiztador]

Interesting.

From the stuff website:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3201429/Speeding-ticket-numbers-down

So, average speeds are down to some of the lowest ever, speed camera tickets have dropped by a quarter, speed is a related factor in only 1 in 6 injury crashes now, down from the 1 in 3 when the speed cameras where introduced...

and the road toll is increasing...

Couple of comments:

- The info they have there re highest ticketed sides has mistakes in it. By reading what is provided we see that ex. "Meeanee Quay, Westshore, Napier, 3823 tickets issued" should be in the national top ten. It therefore straight away puts doubts in the statistics provided.

- If tickets for speeding are going down and average speed is going down, but accidents are on the rise, is the expensive "Speed Kills" campaign where so much money should be focused? Or is this just a indication that they have no friggin idea what is the man cause of ppl having accidents, and speed is a easy target?

- You would expect that people who travel the same roads often have become accustomised to the placing of the stationary cameras, and after being penalised once will remember where it is and not allow it to happen again, therefore contributing highly to the drop in the tickets from that camera.

- Nowehere is it made clear if this is only including the stationary cameras (the article seems to indicate this) or if the mobile cameras are included too.

My comment: I applaud anything that will save lives. But is this revenue gathering really achieving anything else than revenue gathering?

[denill]

So, speed doesn't kill.

I never thought it did.

Accidents kill. And accidents happen at any speed. :(

[grusomhat]

I bet another factor is the advent of cheap GPS units that have Fixed camera locations as POI. That would help a lot of out-of-towners who are likely the biggest source for most cameras.

[Monkeynz]

With last year being in recession, people have not had spare cash to pay speeding fines so have reduced their speed to avoid getting caught. :clap:
I know I have slowed down in my car, but unfortunately not on my bike..... sorry but just can't help it, although nearly got caught during the week. :dodge:

[CookMySock]

They will need to get revenue up again, so guess they will do WOF and rego checks to make their quotas ............. :rofl: :laugh:They are already doing that. It's cool how they just wave bikes through WOF and Rego checkpoints.. Though I always have a WOF.

Steve

[crazyhorse]

They are already doing that. It's cool how they just wave bikes through WOF and Rego checkpoints.. Though I always have a WOF.

Steve

I haven't been stopped for a while now, but I wasn't waved through, Even had to pull out the ole licence too..... and doubt they will wave bikes through when the new fees come into force:Pokey:

[twotyred]

- If tickets for speeding are going down and average speed is going down, but accidents are on the rise, is the expensive "Speed Kills" campaign where so much money should be focused? Or is this just a indication that they have no friggin idea what is the man cause of ppl having accidents, and speed is a easy target?



that's it in a nutshell

[oldrider]

What a lot of bullshit these statistics are, they do nothing more than provide mutual back scratching (mutual gratification) for those involved with them!

It may be an "area" thing but I have observed the average speed is increasing on the open road!

My bike seems to feel comfortable and easy to ride at around seventy mph at 4k revs.

That is when I want to travel trouble free and not spend "all" my time worrying about ticket salesmen.

Having no radar detector, it seems easier to wash off any excessive speed quickly from there when I am confronted by revenue gathering opportunists.

At around 70mph I just used to quietly work my way through the traffic into the clear spots in the traffic flow.

That practice has now increased to 80mph or I am being overtaken by all in sundry and am looking for clear spots "behind" me, rather than on the road ahead!

On some days it has been as high as 90mph and that includes little old ladies, assorted vehicles with boat trailers, campervans, trucks and buses, you name it!

I don't ride like a Nana all the time but as a retired pensioner there is not the need for "speed all the time" and we like to enjoy our bike and the countryside as much as possible, trouble free.

Just saying the statistics in that report and my experience, where I normally ride, tell me that they are bullshit!

How often am I out there?

Well I bought my current bike 28/02/07 and have travelled 30k miles (50k kilometres) since then, so that's a reasonable amount of time.

I have two other vehicles as well to spend time driving in as well.

I just believe people are travelling faster than ever, especially out on the open road, it doesn't bother me, it is the "dangerous" driving that does that!

Failing to keep bloody "left" is the worst offending in the area's where I mainly travel!

[Monkeynz]

What a lot of bullshit these statistics are, they do nothing more than provide mutual back scratching (mutual gratification) for those involved with them!

It may be an "area" thing but I have observed the average speed is increasing on the open road!

My bike seems to feel comfortable and easy to ride at around seventy mph at 4k revs.

That is when I want to travel trouble free and not spend "all" my time worrying about ticket salesmen.

Having no radar detector, it seems easier to wash off any excessive speed quickly from there when I am confronted by revenue gathering opportunists.

At around 70mph I just used to quietly work my way through the traffic into the clear spots in the traffic flow.

That practice has now increased to 80mph or I am being overtaken by all in sundry and am looking for clear spots "behind" me, rather than on the road ahead!

On some days it has been as high as 90mph and that includes little old ladies, assorted vehicles with boat trailers, campervans, trucks and buses, you name it!

I don't ride like a Nana all the time but as a retired pensioner there is not the need for "speed all the time" and we like to enjoy our bike and the countryside as much as possible, trouble free.

Just saying the statistics in that report and my experience, where I normally ride, tell me that they are bullshit!

How often am I out there?

Well I bought my current bike 28/02/07 and have travelled 30k miles (50k kilometres) since then, so that's a reasonable amount of time.

I have two other vehicles as well to spend time driving in as well.

I just believe people are travelling faster than ever, especially out on the open road, it doesn't bother me, it is the "dangerous" driving that does that!

Failing to keep bloody "left" is the worst offending in the area's where I mainly travel!

Yep, well said. :2thumbsup

[CookMySock]

It may be an "area" thing but I have observed the average speed is increasing on the open road!

My bike seems to feel comfortable and easy to ride at around seventy mph at 4k revs.

At around 70mph I just used to quietly work my way through the traffic into the clear spots in the traffic flow.

That practice has now increased to 80mph or I am being overtaken by all in sundry and am looking for clear spots "behind" me, rather than on the road ahead!

On some days it has been as high as 90mph and that includes little old ladies, assorted vehicles with boat trailers, campervans, trucks and buses, you name it!Either there's something wrong with your speedo or it IS an area thing. There's no way that is happening over here.

I sit on 105-115k mostly, and I'm passing everything in sight. It is very very rare that I am overtaken by any vehicle at any time.

Mind you, I do not hesitate in traffic. Any little gap is used as a way forward, and I know and exploit any loophole in the law to move ahead, leaving much traffic puzzled and annoyed behind me. Funny ay.

Steve

[Monkeynz]

Mind you, I do not hesitate in traffic. Any little gap is used as a way forward, and I know and exploit any loophole in the law to move ahead, leaving much traffic puzzled and annoyed behind me. Funny ay.

Steve[/QUOTE]

While you're on that subject, whats the laws around riding between vehicles say stopped at a set of lights? :Offtopic:

[CookMySock]

While you're on that subject, whats the laws around riding between vehicles say stopped at a set of lights? :Offtopic:There is an enormous amount of reading material on this site about that, but basically you may pass on the right, in any lane, at any time, at any speed, as long as you can say WHY it was safe, and as long as you do not cross a yellow no-passing line, AND additionally, if the traffic is completely stopped, then you may also pass on the left. In a nutshell.

Steve

[oldrider]

True, I ride in paradise most of the time, hey maybe I have died and gone to heaven and didn't notice! :lol:

[Monkeynz]

There is an enormous amount of reading material on this site about that, but basically you may pass on the right, in any lane, at any time, at any speed, as long as you can say WHY it was safe, and as long as you do not cross a yellow no-passing line, AND additionally, if the traffic is completely stopped, then you may also pass on the left. In a nutshell.

Steve

Wicked, and I thought it was illegal! Awesome, :Pokey: to the car and truck drivers.

[MD]

I can't be stuffed finding the original data but when I wrote my Submission about the proposed 40kph speed limit for Tawa a few years ago I obtained the findings from the London congestion tax introduction. Interesting outcome that they didn't expect was; they reduced the number of cars in central London; the average traffic speed went up by a reasonable percent. FACT; cycle and car accidents went down by a greater perecentage than the speed % went up. Totally blew the stupid Bureaucrats theory that; decrease speed must = less accidents; increase speed must = more accidents.

Just like the faster flowing British motorways prove. Intelligent, courteous, fast flowing drivers who know how to use lanes and operate those complicated indicator devices, have far less accidents than our ill trained moron drivers.

[Monkeynz]

I can't be stuffed finding the original data but when I wrote my Submission about the proposed 40kph speed limit for Tawa a few years ago I obtained the findings from the London congestion tax introduction. Interesting outcome that they didn't expect was; they reduced the number of cars in central London; the average traffic speed went up by a reasonable percent. FACT; cycle and car accidents went down by a greater perecentage than the speed % went up. Totally blew the stupid Bureaucrats theory that; decrease speed must = less accidents; increase speed must = more accidents.

Just like the faster flowing British motorways prove. Intelligent, courteous, fast flowing drivers who know how to use lanes and operate those complicated indicator devices, have far less accidents than our ill trained moron drivers.



Yea I bloody reckon, every day I see idioitic drivers who shouldn't be allowed on the road, some just have no idea. :mad:

[CookMySock]

Wicked, and I thought it was illegal!HELL NO! That is 50% of the fun to be had on bikes. Even on the open road you can do the same thing at yellow passing lines - just do not cross them! AND make sure you have a good explanation up your sleeve at all times, coz if the fuzz didn't like your little manoevre they will stop you and hear your explanation, so it better be a good-un.

You also may not split through an intersection, use turning bays, or median strips. Everywhere else - GO HARD and ride around the fuckers! LOL.


Steve

[Monkeynz]

HELL NO! That is 50% of the fun to be had on bikes. Even on the open road you can do the same thing at yellow passing lines - just do not cross them! AND make sure you have a good explanation up your sleeve at all times, coz if the fuzz didn't like your little manoevre they will stop you and hear your explanation, so it better be a good-un.

You also may not split through an intersection, use turning bays, or median strips. Everywhere else - GO HARD and ride around the fuckers! LOL.


Steve


Cool, thats some awesome info to have to start the New Year. Never been a huge fan of overtaking with cars coming the other way let alone on the yellows though. Did it when I was in England and was .1 mph away from instant loss of licence so been a bit weary since so yes was speeding a little too. :rolleyes:

[rainman]

So, speed doesn't kill....

Accidents kill. And accidents happen at any speed. :(

It's just that faster accidents are more likely to kill. Yes you can have a fatal at almost any speed, but it's way unlikely at 30kph, much more so at 150ph.


With last year being in recession, people have not had spare cash to pay speeding fines so have reduced their speed to avoid getting caught. :clap:
I know I have slowed down in my car, but unfortunately not on my bike..... sorry but just can't help it, although nearly got caught during the week. :dodge:

I also wondered how many fewer km were being travelled owing to the recession.

I haven't had a speeding ticket in bloody years (probably since the mid 90s), car or bike. It's not hard.

[Monkeynz]

It's just that faster accidents are more likely to kill. Yes you can have a fatal at almost any speed, but it's way unlikely at 30kph, much more so at 150ph.



I also wondered how many fewer km were being travelled owing to the recession.

I haven't had a speeding ticket in bloody years (probably since the mid 90s), car or bike. It's not hard.


Also with petrol prices going sky high in 2008 there was a huge drop off in vehicle usage. It greatly affected the Automotive industry, particularly Panelbeating/spraypainting.

I haven't had a ticket for about 20yrs here in NZ but had one 12 yrs ago in England. TOUCH WOOD I don't get one for a few more years too!

[rok-the-boat]

There are more accidents because with one eye ALWAYS on the speedo you have only one eye left with which to watch the road. Common sense.

[p.dath]

While you're on that subject, whats the laws around riding between vehicles say stopped at a set of lights? :Offtopic:

The Wiki has a lot of info in this area:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/wiki/Category:Motorcycle_Laws

[awayatc]

intelligent, courteous, fast flowing drivers who know how to use lanes ........... .

Yeah, I know Both of them.....

[marty]

The trend is down. 2nd lowest road toll since 1962. 20-odd more than 2008. If they took stupidity out of the road toll it would probably be 1/2 what it is. At least 3 were kids run over in their own driveway last year. And it's tough to keep the toll down when fuckwits running from the cops kill themselves like last night

[CookMySock]

If they took stupidity out of the road toll it would probably be 1/2 what it is. At least 3 were kids run over in their own driveway last year.3 is a very small number overall, when you consider just how many of these wheeled deathtraps we have around the place. Call it "stupidity" perhaps, but there is also the element of plain bad luck.

Steve

[Katman]

If they took stupidity out of the road toll it would probably be 1/2 what it is.

If you took stupidity out of the motorcycle fatality stats we'd almost have a clean slate.

[denill]

If you took stupidity out of the motorcycle fatality stats we'd almost have a clean slate.

Totaly true..........

I know Cos - it's always been stupidity on my part when I've been close to causing myself serious damage. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[CookMySock]

If you took stupidity out of the motorcycle fatality stats we'd almost have a clean slate.You have the knack of inadvertantly insulting hell out of the maximum number of people, with the minimum possible number of words.

I am surprised you haven't been whacked hard from a statement like that. Perhaps you choose your company very carefully, because you put no care in the slightest into choosing your words.

Steve

[Katman]

You have the knack of inadvertantly insulting hell out of the maximum number of people, with the minimum possible number of words.

I am surprised you haven't been whacked hard from a statement like that. Perhaps you choose your company very carefully, because you put no care in the slightest into choosing your words.

Steve

Cheers...........Mr Pot.

[speedpro]

If you took stupidity out of the motorcycle fatality stats we'd almost have a clean slate.

Some people aren't going to like reading the truth

[NighthawkNZ]

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/6635384/annual-road-toll-second-lowest-since-1960/


Police are pleased 2009 ended with a road toll under 400 but believe the figure can be lower still.

The provisional road toll for the year was 384, 19 more than last year but still the second lowest since 1960.

National road policing manager Superintendent Paula Rose said overall it was a good result, given the increase in the number of cars on the road.

"Our challenge going forward is to get that deaths number right, right down so that people don't have to suffer the needless loss and suffering that goes with a road death," she told Radio New Zealand.

In 2008, 365 people died on the roads -- one for every day of the year.

Before that, 421 died in 2007, 393 in 2006, 405 in 2005, and 435 in 2004.

[Brian d marge]

oh bollox

Here it comes

Snip
The Government was working to improve road safety through its Safer Journeys strategy, due for release in February with initial actions implemented over the next year or two.
Roadside hazards had already been identified as a key concern, along with drink driving, the safety of young drivers, speed and motorcycling.



Be prepared for , Stalin to run the LTSA this year



it was just a matter of time before this happened


Stephen

[Ronin]

Cheers...........Mr Pot.

That thought did occur to me :clap:

[Ronin]

HELL NO! That is 50% of the fun to be had on bikes. Even on the open road you can do the same thing at yellow passing lines - just do not cross them! AND make sure you have a good explanation up your sleeve at all times, coz if the fuzz didn't like your little manoevre they will stop you and hear your explanation, so it better be a good-un.

You also may not split through an intersection, use turning bays, or median strips. Everywhere else - GO HARD and ride around the fuckers! LOL.


Steve

Remember to forward your tickets to Steve for payment.

[grusomhat]

oh bollox

Here it comes

Snip
The Government was working to improve road safety through its Safer Journeys strategy, due for release in February with initial actions implemented over the next year or two.
Roadside hazards had already been identified as a key concern, along with drink driving, the safety of young drivers, speed and motorcycling.



Be prepared for , Stalin to run the LTSA this year



it was just a matter of time before this happened


Stephen

What are you on about? They want to improve road safety for Motorcyclists? How fucking dare they!!

EDIT: Oh I see what you mean. You do know how a list works right? There's a comma between each item and then the last two are written with an 'and' between.
It could have very easily been written "along with drink driving, Speed, the safety of young drivers and motorcycling.

[86GSXR]

Just ridden 3000 km around the North Island. I noticed that the vast majority of traffic was travelling at less than the limit in most places. It was very easy to overtake without getting excessive. Didn't see any outrageous driving which was either good luck or people are very anxious not to get ticketed. I think the campaigns are having an effect, even if they are really annoying.

[Brian d marge]

What are you on about? They want to improve road safety for Motorcyclists? How fucking dare they!!

EDIT: Oh I see what you mean. You do know how a list works right? There's a comma between each item and then the last two are written with an 'and' between.
It could have very easily been written "along with drink driving, Speed, the safety of young drivers and motorcycling.


Well maybe its the cynic in me but I read it as "speed and motorcycling" , IE they will be targeting motorcyclist in a ticketing campaign , or a half arse revenue gathering campaign

That item was cut and pasted from stuff ( not known for their expert use of the language)

Stephen

[steve_t]

Average speeds are decreasing but the toll is increasing. Are both due to an increase in the number of vehicles on the road?

[86GSXR]

I would say that's spot on. Except for the larger centres (and even then it's a mission sometimes) the roads just can't deal with the volume of traffic on them, especially in the North Island.

[Monkeynz]

I would say that's spot on. Except for the larger centres (and even then it's a mission sometimes) the roads just can't deal with the volume of traffic on them, especially in the North Island.

Its getting that way down here in Chch too, noticed it big time over the last 10 years. But we have some major roadworks due to start soon which should divert a heap of traffic away from the city quicker. :clap:

[Monkeynz]

oh bollox

Here it comes

Snip
The Government was working to improve road safety through its Safer Journeys strategy, due for release in February with initial actions implemented over the next year or two.
Roadside hazards had already been identified as a key concern, along with drink driving, the safety of young drivers, speed and motorcycling.



Be prepared for , Stalin to run the LTSA this year


Stephen

Hopefully the government has taken note of the protest put up by the bikers to the ACC levies and think real hard before doing to much to effect the motorcycling fraternity. :Oi:

[george formby]

I reckon people are slowing down, the police presence on the roads & advertising are taking effect. Unfortunately bad driving is on the increase, those already licensed are having their ranks increased every week as yoofs get licensed & suffer peer pressure to be a bad boy racer. IMHO..
Open road speeds up here feel as if they have dropped, most traffic seems to sit below 100kmh. I wonder if this caution is causing frustration & therefore more bad decisions. I know it frustrates the hell out of me being forced to travel between 60 & 90k's only to be told that "speed kills you know!" I also begin to loose concentration & make poor decisions when forced to creep along in a queue. Bloody propaganda for the mouth breathers.

[Monkeynz]

I reckon people are slowing down, the police presence on the roads & advertising are taking effect. Unfortunately bad driving is on the increase, those already licensed are having their ranks increased every week as yoofs get licensed & suffer peer pressure to be a bad boy racer. IMHO..
Open road speeds up here feel as if they have dropped, most traffic seems to sit below 100kmh. I wonder if this caution is causing frustration & therefore more bad decisions. I know it frustrates the hell out of me being forced to travel between 60 & 90k's only to be told that "speed kills you know!" I also begin to loose concentration & make poor decisions when forced to creep along in a queue. Bloody propaganda for the mouth breathers.

Yep, couldn't agree more. It definitely feels like someone or the government are trying to get people against motorcyclists by feeding everyone with bullshit. :oi-grr:

[gwigs]

I reckon people are slowing down, the police presence on the roads & advertising are taking effect. Unfortunately bad driving is on the increase, those already licensed are having their ranks increased every week as yoofs get licensed & suffer peer pressure to be a bad boy racer. IMHO..
Open road speeds up here feel as if they have dropped, most traffic seems to sit below 100kmh. I wonder if this caution is causing frustration & therefore more bad decisions. I know it frustrates the hell out of me being forced to travel between 60 & 90k's only to be told that "speed kills you know!" I also begin to loose concentration & make poor decisions when forced to creep along in a queue. Bloody propaganda for the mouth breathers.

Bloody good post mate,I think sometimes going a bit quicker keeps you focused and not bored into stupid moves.

[MotoKuzzi]

I reckon people are slowing down, the police presence on the roads & advertising are taking effect.....

I drive into Manukau every week day morning from the South, at about 5.30am. It used to be normal to see traffic travelling, 120-130kph. Over the last year i reckon this has dropped to about 110-115 in the fast lane. Not uncommon to see an unmarked car with someone pulled over along the way now.

[Brian d marge]

Hopefully the government has taken note of the protest put up by the bikers to the ACC levies and think real hard before doing to much to effect the motorcycling fraternity. :Oi:

Unfortunately , two words in the sentence , that I never thought would go together

government and Think

They have been told to save money and will look at ways to reduce costs esp in health care ,,,

Now if car drivers were more environmentally friendly and crammed more into those tin boxes , THEN drove like a Rabid Romany ,

the health budget for broken Stupids would be through the roof , Government would have a fit ! Cars would be legislated of the road

and I would have a clear run over the port hills !!!

Make me Minister of Transport !!!

Car free Days ....... got a sort of ring to it !

Stephen

[SMOKEU]

So, speed doesn't kill.

I never thought it did.

Accidents kill. And accidents happen at any speed. :(

If you have too much speed you might trip out and die.

[shrub]

Speed will always be the mechanism by which Our Masters work on road safety because it's easy to police and easy to monitor. I read a report put out by the LTSA on accidents in the Waikato recently, and in it the comment was made that speed is not the biggest problem - driver inattention is the single biggest cause of road accidents. But how the hell do you police driver inattention? Do you pull people over for looking half asleep, driving too slowly, eating while they drive, talking to passengers, playing with their stereos or staring out the side window?

Maybe if the constabulary did that, some people would start taking driving seriously and maybe less people would say "sorry mate, I didn't see you". But you can't issue a quick and dirty ticket for staring out the side window or making eye contact with your passenger while you chat to them - all you can do is careless driving, and that means a courtcase, paperwork, time, bad PR and more. That's why you'll never see the biggest cause of crashes dealt with.

Speed however, is easy. If I'm doing 101 kmh, I am breaking the law and the constable behind the radar gun can prove to a court of law that "Shrub was being particularly wicked that day your honour, he was doing over 100 kmh and putting the lives of widows and children at risk and it was lucky we caught him before he killed someone". It's measurable, which means when Superintendant Plod presents his report to Our Masters at the end of the year, he can say "Minister, we issued 6785 tickets for speeding which proves how busy we are in our fearless fight to make the highways safe for widows and children". And he gets his Christmas bonus while Our Masters congratulate each other for having the second lowest road toll since 1960.

In the meantime Mary Pajero is lumbering and weaving all over the road in her mighty truck ("we bought it because it was safe for the children) as she tries to stop little Tarquin from gouging out Jacinta's eyes, completely unaware of Shrub using every ounce of brakes as his sphincter tightens so hard it leaves a crease in his seat because she was too busy to look properly at the give way sign. But she wasn't speeding, she never speeds because she's a careful driver. Unlike those terrible bikers screaming madly down empty country roads at 120 kmh - they deserve to PAY! And Our Masters fund all kinds of clever ads that convince us that any speed over 100 kmh is terribly dangerous so nobody will argue as to why there is so much focus on speed because "the faster you go, the bigger the mess" and "that's where a lot of the accidents are happening these days sir".

[gwigs]

[QUOTE=Brian d'marge;1129594788]Unfortunately , two words in the sentence , that I never thought would go together

government and Think

They have been told to save money and will look at ways to reduce costs esp in health care ,,,

Now if car drivers were more environmentally friendly and crammed more into those tin boxes , THEN drove like a Rabid Romany ,

the health budget for broken Stupids would be through the roof , Government would have a fit ! Cars would be legislated of the road

and I would have a clear run over the port hills !!!

Make me Minister of Transport !!!

I hereby appoint you.. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT....go for it..:niceone:

Car free Days ....... got a sort of ring to it !

Stephen[/QUO

[Swoop]

is the expensive "Speed Kills" campaign where so much money should be focused? Or is this just a indication that they have no friggin idea what is the man cause of ppl having accidents, and speed is a easy target?
I was pondering this recently. Remember when the adverts used to have useful information, rather than bland propaganda? I refer to the Peter Brock adverts that were shown here "Brake on the straight - before it's too late" "Only a fool breaks the 2 second rule" kind of stuff.

People are turned off the "speed kills" approach because it is not only wrong, but also crap advertising.

Education of motorists' is something that politicians, and their ministries, are very bad at.

[MarkH]

Speed however, is easy. If I'm doing 101 kmh, I am breaking the law and the constable behind the radar gun can prove to a court of law that "Shrub was being particularly wicked that day your honour, he was doing over 100 kmh and putting the lives of widows and children at risk and it was lucky we caught him before he killed someone".

Your post made a lot of sense - you haven't wondered onto the wrong forum by any chance?

I suspect that the problem with policing is indeed that they choose the easiest to police infringements to enforce. What they can measure easily is what the majority of tickets are for. Speeding and blood alcohol level are easily measured and the details can be explained in court if needed. Bad driving is harder and educating motorists takes more work, easier to threaten people with a fine & demerit points if they don't drive slower than to educate them so they will drive BETTER!

[red mermaid]

So many experts with so many great ideas...makes me wonder why you aren't all in Traffic policing. MoT, or NZ Transport Agency.

[Monkeynz]

So many experts with so many great ideas...makes me wonder why you aren't all in Traffic policing. MoT, or NZ Transport Agency.

I wouldn't say that cops, traffic cops or NZTA are experts either, may like to think they are, they are enforcers and thats why I couldn't be any of them. :Police:

[Brian d marge]

done

As of now all cars are band from the bottom of..... ah sod it , everywhere on Bank peninsula except count down car park on sat afternoons

Done

Hey this jobs real easy !

Stephen

[red mermaid]

I wouldn't say that cops, traffic cops or NZTA are experts either, may like to think they are, they are enforcers and thats why I couldn't be any of them. :Police:

You are wrong, so very wrong, as so many of the posts on this subject are.
MoT are a policy advisory ministry.
NZTA are predominantly policy and educative.
Police are predominantly enforcement.

You answer also shows the lack of knowledge of the systems in place on crash analysis (not the anecdotal rubbish you get on KB), and other objective analysis by all these agencies that leads to police targetting there enforcement on behaviours that have been proven to cause crashes, and increase fatalities and injuries.

[shrub]

You answer also shows the lack of knowledge of the systems in place on crash analysis (not the anecdotal rubbish you get on KB), and other objective analysis by all these agencies that leads to police targetting there enforcement on behaviours that have been proven to cause crashes, and increase fatalities and injuries.

I've looked at a lot of the crash analysis statistics from 2008 for motorcycle accidents in Auck and ChCh, and I'd have to say that the quality of the data can be very poor - around 40% didn't record the size of the motorcycle and an incidence where a motorcyclist hit and killed a child who shot out of a driveway on a go cart was listed as a motorcyle fatality.

I was recently involved in a motorcycle fatality that the Police attributed to speed. I was leading a small group at around 100 - 110 kmh and was braking for a one lane bridge (and I know I was travelling at that speed because just before the accident I looked at my speedo). One of the riders following me was not paying attention - the rider behind him said he was looking over his shoulder, and when he saw the bikes in front of him stopping he grabbed a big handful of brakes and flew over the bars, tumbled and suffered internal injuries.

One of the factors the police used to identify his speed was the distance his bike had slid, which was erroneous because it was a Moto Guzzi with cylinders poking out the side. It slid further than my Triumph would have slid because it was sliding on a small area of metal on the front and the carriers for panniers on the back. He came off because of rider inattention, but it is recorded as a speed fatality.

[McJim]

You are wrong, so very wrong, as so many of the posts on this subject are.
MoT are a policy advisory ministry.
NZTA are predominantly policy and educative.
Police are predominantly enforcement.

You answer also shows the lack of knowledge of the systems in place on crash analysis (not the anecdotal rubbish you get on KB), and other objective analysis by all these agencies that leads to police targetting there enforcement on behaviours that have been proven to cause crashes, and increase fatalities and injuries.

Simply saying "you're wrong" doesn't constitute an argument. Please advise us where our errors lie o' knowledgeable one. If the government departments responsible are so all- knowing how come speeds are down and injuries are up?

(the real reason we are not MoT, NZTA or Police is the WE actually know what we are talking about :Pokey::rofl:)

[red mermaid]

Shall we start with speed, whereby it seems to be accepted on this site, as per the post by Shrub above, that if you are not exceeding the speed limit then it can not be a factor.

This is wrong, speed is driving to the conditions, and from the information given by shrub it was excessive. A person, or persons, in that group was travelling at a speed above there experience, the conditions at the time, and that associated with inattention has been a contributing factor to the crash.

For a proper analysis of crashes, ALL factors have to be considered and recorded, not just the ones you may like to include.

[riffer]

And herein lies a big part of the problem red mermaid. Because the advertising and media releases have so often used the word "speed" when what they actually mean was "speed inappropriate to the conditions" that many have inferred that its the actual velocity that's the problem.

How do we educate people that velocity isn't the problem?

[James Deuce]

Massive face palm inducing post Mr Mermaid. Do all accident reports involve conjecture extracted from anecdotal third hand witness reports or just some of them?

If we all stood still speed would never be an issue? Explain why all accidents involving a motorcycle are listed as motorcycle accidents despite things like brand, capacity and model being omitted from the report and definitive causes being other vehicles or road surface related issues being listed as "factors".

You never see an accident report that says truck collides with motorcycle. They all say motorcycle collides with truck. Why is that? I wrote my TRX off on a diesel slick around a blind corner. It was recorded as rider loses control on bend. I couldn't stand up on the road and had to crawl to get out of the way of the spinning RAV4 heading toward me. Apparently she lost control on a bend too. No one mentioned the inch thick layer of diesel and the rocks all over the road from where the truck had clipped the hillside and ripped his tank open did they. Or that he would have had to have been on the wrong side of the road to do that. My red Yamaha was recorded as a white Ducati.

[PeeJay]

You are wrong, so very wrong, as so many of the posts on this subject are.
MoT are a policy advisory ministry.
NZTA are predominantly policy and educative.
Police are predominantly enforcement.

You answer also shows the lack of knowledge of the systems in place on crash analysis (not the anecdotal rubbish you get on KB), and other objective analysis by all these agencies that leads to police targetting there enforcement on behaviours that have been proven to cause crashes, and increase fatalities and injuries.

Objective analysis of accident data shows the primary cause of vehicle accidents is human error. Speed in itself doesnt cause accidents. Excessive speed (for the conditions) is generally due to human error.
Changing driver behaviour has been put into the too hard basket, instead by concentrating on speeding they are just trying to mitigate the effects of poor driving.

They could issue drivers licences along the same lines as you get a private pilots licence, ie training, exams, and the investment of money. While this would probably cull the majority of poor drivers, and likely bring the road toll way down, a cost/benefit analysis would show the 300 odd lives saved would not make up for the economic and political repercussions of only 20% of the population (a wild guess) being allowed to drive.
So it aint going to happen.

[sondela]

Shall we start with speed, whereby it seems to be accepted on this site, as per the post by Shrub above, that if you are not exceeding the speed limit then it can not be a factor.

This is wrong, speed is driving to the conditions, and from the information given by shrub it was excessive. A person, or persons, in that group was travelling at a speed above there experience, the conditions at the time, and that associated with inattention has been a contributing factor to the crash.

For a proper analysis of crashes, ALL factors have to be considered and recorded, not just the ones you may like to include.

For goodness sake!! If the guy had made a mistake and looked the wrong way as he stepped off the pavement and a bus had hit him, it would have still been a dreadful accident and he would have still been dead. There would have still been a moving vehicle that caused his death.. but long as he wasn't on a motorbike, it wasn't speed , right???

You just can't generalise!

[crazyhorse]

I hear the road toll is 11 - and nearly all of them are cages................. Good on us bikers! :)

[PrincessBandit]

Objective analysis of accident data shows the primary cause of vehicle accidents is human error. Speed in itself doesnt cause accidents. Excessive speed (for the conditions) is generally due to human error.
Changing driver behaviour has been put into the too hard basket, instead by concentrating on speeding they are just trying to mitigate the effects of poor driving.

They could issue drivers licences along the same lines as you get a private pilots licence, ie training, exams, and the investment of money. While this would probably cull the majority of poor drivers, and likely bring the road toll way down, a cost/benefit analysis would show the 300 odd lives saved would not make up for the economic repercussions of only 20% of the population (a wild guess) being allowed to drive.
So it aint going to happen.

Green on the way once bling function back up and running. :niceone:

[James Deuce]

I hear the road toll is 11 - and nearly all of them are cages................. Good on us bikers! :)

As has been pointed out many times by ambos and firecrew, the Holiday road toll is no different to any other time of the year. NZ generally averages between 1.2 and 1.3 people dead on the road per day. It's business as usual. The "Holiday Road Toll" is a construct of bureaucrats with their heads up their arse running communication plans to inform credible dummies. Bike deaths run between 35 and 50 per year. So about 0.8 per week. Looks like that's on target too.

[riffer]

As has been pointed out many times by ambos and firecrew, the Holiday road toll is no different to any other time of the year. NZ generally averages between 1.2 and 1.3 people dead on the road per day. It's business as usual. The "Holiday Road Toll" is a construct of bureaucrats with their heads up their arse running communication plans to inform credible dummies. Bike deaths run between 35 and 50 per year. So about 0.8 per week. Looks like that's on target too.

Indeed. And also, with 1 motorcycle death and 10 car deaths it's in keeping with the 1:10 motorcycle to car ratio as well.

[FJRider]

How do we educate people that velocity isn't the problem?


Darwin had a theory on that subject ... :innocent:

[MarkH]

Green on the way once bling function back up and running. :niceone:

Bling is working - just moved to the little star on the lower left.

[HondaSTrider]

As has been pointed out many times by ambos and firecrew, the Holiday road toll is no different to any other time of the year. NZ generally averages between 1.2 and 1.3 people dead on the road per day. It's business as usual. The "Holiday Road Toll" is a construct of bureaucrats with their heads up their arse running communication plans to inform credible dummies. Bike deaths run between 35 and 50 per year. So about 0.8 per week. Looks like that's on target too.

That's just another little 'quirk' of the media that pisses me off! Every damn holiday we're subjected to "DING DING DING.. NEW TOTAL!!!! Death toll now stands at...."
All said by some smiling ventriliquists' dummy at prime-time on the idiot-box.
It's like something out of a 1980's Telethon FFS! And now I know that there's really no difference between holidays and normal every-day-of-the-year days it just makes it all the more macabre. :mad::mad:

Since I came back from Oz two and a half years ago I got my first speed related "enforced contribution" to the road safety fund a couple of days ago. $120 for 118 kph on a dead straight, open country road in perfect weather conditions, with bugger all traffic about, in a car riddled with air-bags, ABS brakes, crumple-zones etc etc etc ....shit it was dangerous, hair-raising stuff! :baby:
I'm so pleased to finally be able to" financially assist" in getting that nasty road-toll down though. Feck-it all... shoulda left one of the kids home and gone on the scoota! :oi-grr::oi-grr:

[shrub]

Shall we start with speed, whereby it seems to be accepted on this site, as per the post by Shrub above, that if you are not exceeding the speed limit then it can not be a factor.

This is wrong, speed is driving to the conditions, and from the information given by shrub it was excessive. A person, or persons, in that group was travelling at a speed above there experience, the conditions at the time, and that associated with inattention has been a contributing factor to the crash.

For a proper analysis of crashes, ALL factors have to be considered and recorded, not just the ones you may like to include.

You've made a decision without any knowledge of the situation. I have ridden that road many times and the speed we were riding was, if anything, conservative for the conditions. The guy who binned his bike was not paying attention, which I understand is the single largest cause of traffic crashes in NZ and overseas. Not paying attention can bite you in the arse at 5 kmh or 105 kmh, but it's my experience that generally when I'm riding fast I am absolutely paying attention. Without wanting to endorse speeding, it is not the blanket evil Our Masters would have us believe it is, and in some cases I believe 100 kmh is too slow.

[Monkeynz]

You've made a decision without any knowledge of the situation. I have ridden that road many times and the speed we were riding was, if anything, conservative for the conditions. The guy who binned his bike was not paying attention, which I understand is the single largest cause of traffic crashes in NZ and overseas. Not paying attention can bite you in the arse at 5 kmh or 105 kmh, but it's my experience that generally when I'm riding fast I am absolutely paying attention. Without wanting to endorse speeding, it is not the blanket evil Our Masters would have us believe it is, and in some cases I believe 100 kmh is too slow.

Yep well said, I couldn't agree more. I know from my own experience that my inattention is usually at low speeds. I don't think the coppers will understand my excuse for speeding as "I'm speeding because my concentration levels remain at 100% so I'm less likely to crash". As nice as that would be. But 100km is definitely too slow, in the dry anyway. (Drive to the conditions)

[Monkeynz]

You've made a decision without any knowledge of the situation. I have ridden that road many times and the speed we were riding was, if anything, conservative for the conditions. The guy who binned his bike was not paying attention, which I understand is the single largest cause of traffic crashes in NZ and overseas. Not paying attention can bite you in the arse at 5 kmh or 105 kmh, but it's my experience that generally when I'm riding fast I am absolutely paying attention. Without wanting to endorse speeding, it is not the blanket evil Our Masters would have us believe it is, and in some cases I believe 100 kmh is too slow.

Yep well said, I couldn't agree more. I know from my own experience that my inattention is usually at low speeds. I don't think the coppers will understand my excuse for speeding as "I'm speeding because my concentration levels remain at 100% so I'm less likely to crash". As nice as that would be. But 100km is definitely too slow, in the dry anyway. (Drive to the conditions) :innocent:

[shrub]

Overseas experience is that when speed limits are raised, accident rates actually decline, but as I pointed out earlier it is politically expedient to make speeding the bogey man of highways safety.

The easy solution isn't always the best solution.

[davebullet]

The simple matter is there are too many dumb, inattentive or aggressive bastards on our roads who should never have been handed a license.

There is no requirement to refresh your road code.

It is still acceptable and perfectly legal to drink (a little bit) and drive.

People drive 2+ tonne vans, 4wds and buses like they'll stop on a dime / handle like a Lotus.

There are too many gadgets / gizmos and distractions in cars. Bare minimum accessories (heater).

There is no compulsory advanced or defensive driver training.

[Mikkel]

Overseas experience is that when speed limits are raised, accident rates actually decline, but as I pointed out earlier it is politically expedient to make speeding the bogey man of highways safety.

The easy solution isn't always the best solution.

Yep. The German autobahn being a great example of this. In some areas there are no speed limits at all and the road toll on the autobahn (considering number of vehicle kilometers traveled) is very low indeed.

But you see the same idiotic approach in other aspects of society as well - the "if we call it bad and ban it, surely it will just go away"-mentality. There was a good article on this in regards to the "war on drugs" on Stuff (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/3203328/The-economics-of-drugs) today. Different issue, same mentality - same lack of results.

Such a long time and they are still reluctant to face the music - road tolls are about driver culture (or lack of if you will), which in turn ties in with driver education. I didn't get what I wanted for Christmas this year, but maybe next year we can have politicians with both balls and brains...

[shrub]

The simple matter is there are too many dumb, inattentive or aggressive bastards on our roads who should never have been handed a license.

There is no requirement to refresh your road code.

It is still acceptable and perfectly legal to drink (a little bit) and drive.

People drive 2+ tonne vans, 4wds and buses like they'll stop on a dime / handle like a Lotus.

There are too many gadgets / gizmos and distractions in cars. Bare minimum accessories (heater).

There is no compulsory advanced or defensive driver training.

I couldn't agree more. If we rode our bikes the way most people seem to drive their cars, KB would have 20 people on it and the morgues would be chokka and if the attitudes that I see as being typical in an experienced motorcyclist were common in car drivers, the road toll would be halved, but open road speeds would increase.

[davebullet]

I couldn't agree more. If we rode our bikes the way most people seem to drive their cars, KB would have 20 people on it and the morgues would be chokka and if the attitudes that I see as being typical in an experienced motorcyclist were common in car drivers, the road toll would be halved, but open road speeds would increase.

I was amazed at how "slack" I had become as a car driver. With:
conversations in the car
distracted by children in the back fighting
radio too loud
don't worry about what is around the corner as I can brake mid corner no worries etc.. etc...

When I started riding a bike, it was like everything was in sharp focus. I HAD to plan ahead. I didn't have the distractions (I've tried iPod listening but actually don't like it that much and find it distracts me).

I am much more aware of road surfaces. I never saw oil / diesel spots on the road after rain, now it is obvious (even only minutes after the last shower).

I saw a woman driving a van too quickly around the mana roundabout and rolled it over in front of me. Just prior, she was travelling next to me (right lane). I wasn't involved / safe as I read what was happening, backed off and watched it unfold.

Motorcycling has made me a safer motorist, but I also speed more.

Why do I speed more? Because I ride to the conditions. If I can overtake someone at 120kph and get it over and done with quickly, then I read that as far safer than sitting in the opposing lane for an extended period. I would rather pay money on speeding tickets and keep myself safe in this scenario rather than risk my life to abide with the law.

[TripleZee Dyno]

Objective analysis of accident data shows the primary cause of vehicle accidents is human error. Speed in itself doesnt cause accidents. Excessive speed (for the conditions) is generally due to human error.
Changing driver behaviour has been put into the too hard basket, instead by concentrating on speeding they are just trying to mitigate the effects of poor driving.

They could issue drivers licences along the same lines as you get a private pilots licence, ie training, exams, and the investment of money. While this would probably cull the majority of poor drivers, and likely bring the road toll way down, a cost/benefit analysis would show the 300 odd lives saved would not make up for the economic and political repercussions of only 20% of the population (a wild guess) being allowed to drive.
So it aint going to happen.

wot he said
Lets face it the government could "fixit" at the stroke of a pen, lower the speed limits to say 50km/hr open road 30kmhr every where else. there would likely be a lot more crashes but provided people stuck to the speed limit the road toll would probably drop dramatically. Motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians will still be stuffed but then banning motorcycles, cycles, and walking would fix that.
(Death from road rage attacks on people only doing 49km/hr would be included in the murder stats rather than as vehicle deaths)
OR
whack the fines up say $1000 minimum plus loss of licence/impound for over 100k.
Why dont they? because its likely 99% of people would stick to the speed limit and they lose income while still having to pay out enforcement costs
Fines have to be affordable so they are more of an irritation rather than a calamity to motorists so as not to deter them too much.
But at $1000, I would program a speed limiter into my Buell. As it is if I get pinged $100 its not the end of the world.

100km/hr is a politically acceptable figure, any lower eg 80k like back in the 70's, could lead to large scale civil disobedience, any higher and either an increase or a decrease in the road toll would be politically embarrassing.
We wont get a higher limit until they can sort out driver standards and get the road toll down even further.
So until then we are stuck with 100k.
Probably quite a while since its a nice little earner as well.

[steve_t]

While we're on it, why is the limit 100 km/h? It seems such an arbitrary figure which is a result of our decimal system. Is there any research showing that at 100 there's xx% risk of yy but at 120 there's 3(xx) risk? I'm all for driving to the conditions but aren't conditions improving? 5 star safety rated cages, (hopefully) better road design and maintenance (LOL), etc. I'd support the enforcement of compulsory advanced driver training (the government can make money from this too!) and a re-evaluation of speed limits. NB I also support the 40 km/h limit in front of schools during busy times so it's not just about allowing us to go faster :niceone:

[MarkH]

When I started riding a bike, it was like everything was in sharp focus. I HAD to plan ahead. I didn't have the distractions (I've tried iPod listening but actually don't like it that much and find it distracts me).

I am much more aware of road surfaces. I never saw oil / diesel spots on the road after rain, now it is obvious (even only minutes after the last shower).

Motorcycling has made me a safer motorist, but I also speed more.

Faster, but safer? That's unpossible!
Surely if that was true the government would put their efforts into making people better drivers irather than just penalizing the people that go faster than the limit?
A Government that just tickets the speeders and puts little effort into whatever might be needed to improve the standards of driving would be one hell of a lousy Government . . . oh, wait . . .

One of the silliest things in my opinion is when someone gains more than 100 demerit points - they just take the license away for 3 months, how does that help anything? I would rather see something sensible like >100 demerit points => compulsory advanced driver training course. I would also like to see demerit points not given out for exceeding the speed limit, but given out for bad driving. i.e. 'ello 'ello 'ello - I noticed you driving like a fuckwit - here's a ticket for 20 demerit points and a $200 fine, in future try to drive like someone with a brain please, have a nice day!

I think my idea would have a better chance of improving road safety than the current system.
Also - fiddling with the radio while driving = demerit points. When someone is out in public hurtling along at 100kph in 1.5 tonnes of glass & steel I think it would be a good idea for them to pay attention to controlling the vehicle and looking ahead - less chance of them killing someone then.

[TripleZee Dyno]

While we're on it, why is the limit 100 km/h? It seems such an arbitrary figure which is a result of our decimal system. Is there any research showing that at 100 there's xx% risk of yy but at 120 there's 3(xx) risk? I'm all for driving to the conditions but aren't conditions improving? 5 star safety rated cages, (hopefully) better road design and maintenance (LOL), etc. I'd support the enforcement of compulsory advanced driver training (the government can make money from this too!) and a re-evaluation of speed limits. NB I also support the 40 km/h limit in front of schools during busy times so it's not just about allowing us to go faster :niceone:
Its not a magic number, just a carryover from when the speed limit was 60mph and its easy to see on the speedo.
When I first started riding/driving I think the speed limit was 50 mph. It wasnt a big deal because the majority of vehicles on the road didnt go much faster than that and the roads were full of corners. So 40-50 was probably a "natural" open road speed. Especially when you are pissed. To wind your Prefect up to the speed limit you needed a couple of miles of straight
When they started building motorways I think they upped it to 60mph and then extended it to be the open road limit. It got dropped to 50mph for a while when we were running out of petrol.
The big difference now is all the road improvements and the vast increase in vehicle performance means the natural speed is probably anywhere from 120k to 160k.
But there can be a big difference in consequences between being an idiot at 80k and an idiot at 160k
I have experienced both and would rather crash at 80k.
We also had minimal driving training and testing back then as well. I drove a car to the cop shop, ran the cop around to his mates place to pick some "stuff" up, back to the cop shop and he gave me my licence.
Also we didnt have to wear helmets, didnt have seatbelts, or airbags, the only crumple zone was your skull crumpling on the dashboard, the steering wheel, the pillars, the windscreen. Drink driving was OK, you kicked the shit out of anyone stupid enough to get caught in a ruck, aahh the good old days

[MSTRS]

The amount of poor driving I saw yesterday whilst returning from parts North, left me shaking my head. Very little 'speeding', but.
On a borrowed bike (thanks that generous KBer) I was sitting in the left wheel track on the rightmost lane of 3. A Diamante was sitting to my left and just behind for ages, matching every speed change I made so I couldn't move over. A pusbucket Lancer sat behind me until he decided that splitting me would be a good idea. I was doing maybe 110 on the speedo, gave it a quick squirt to clear MrDiamante and moved left to let MrPusbucket's mate move past safely. At that point Mr75kphTruck is looming larger in the middle lane, so I indicate and move right...only MrDiamante thought he'd have my spot. He shot ahead for all of 200metres, at which point he cranked hard left across the nose of the truck and anyone in the left lane to exit the MW .
Mr(and Mrs)60/70/80 on the open road with 20 vehicles banked up behind, always feel the need to do 110 at passing lanes. If that doesn't 'make' people do stupid shit I don't know what does.
Then on 5, across the plains on cruise control, set at 108 - gotta be sensible and safe, eh? - nobody passing me or vise versa, until the last section of straight before the cafe/motel on the left. MissOldCorona and MrSUV shoot past at maybe 130. I think "Oh yeah. I'll be seeing you 2 again". Sure enough. About 1km past the Rangitikei on the right, there they are . Under 90, holding me up until a passing opportunity...seeyalater. Actually, no. I didn't see either of them later. And me back on cruise control set at 108. Except on 'those' corners, of course.
So tell me again how speed kills?

[PeeJay]

The amount of poor driving I saw yesterday whilst returning from parts North, left me shaking my head. Very little 'speeding', but.
On a borrowed bike (thanks that generous KBer) I was sitting in the left wheel track on the rightmost lane of 3. A Diamante was sitting to my left and just behind for ages, matching every speed change I made so I couldn't move over. A pusbucket Lancer sat behind me until he decided that splitting me would be a good idea. I was doing maybe 110 on the speedo, gave it a quick squirt to clear MrDiamante and moved left to let MrPusbucket's mate move past safely. At that point Mr75kphTruck is looming larger in the middle lane, so I indicate and move right...only MrDiamante thought he'd have my spot. He shot ahead for all of 200metres, at which point he cranked hard left across the nose of the truck and anyone in the left lane to exit the MW .
Mr(and Mrs)60/70/80 on the open road with 20 vehicles banked up behind, always feel the need to do 110 at passing lanes. If that doesn't 'make' people do stupid shit I don't know what does.
Then on 5, across the plains on cruise control, set at 108 - gotta be sensible and safe, eh? - nobody passing me or vise versa, until the last section of straight before the cafe/motel on the left. MissOldCorona and MrSUV shoot past at maybe 130. I think "Oh yeah. I'll be seeing you 2 again". Sure enough. About 1km past the Rangitikei on the right, there they are . Under 90, holding me up until a passing opportunity...seeyalater. Actually, no. I didn't see either of them later. And me back on cruise control set at 108. Except on 'those' corners, of course.
So tell me again how speed kills?

Be honest, would you really want the speed limit raised with so many nuts on the road?
Its bad enough now with a speed limit of 100k but add 20k to all the speeds mentioned in your post and it will be downright dangerous, on a bike I mean

[MarkH]

Be honest, would you really want the speed limit raised with so many nuts on the road?
Its bad enough now with a speed limit of 100k but add 20k to all the speeds mentioned in your post and it will be downright dangerous, on a bike I mean

What I want is an improvement to the standard of driving - I am happy for the speed limit to be raised, but some driver training for the fuckwits in cars would do a lot more for safety than the speed limit does!

[MSTRS]

Be honest, would you really want the speed limit raised with so many nuts on the road?
Its bad enough now with a speed limit of 100k but add 20k to all the speeds mentioned in your post and it will be downright dangerous, on a bike I mean


What I want is an improvement to the standard of driving - I am happy for the speed limit to be raised, but some driver training for the fuckwits in cars would do a lot more for safety than the speed limit does!
And there's your answer.
Teach better driving skills, better awareness skills, better vehicle control, better everything really...stop teaching them how to pass a test.

[Katman]

What I want is an improvement to the standard of driving - I am happy for the speed limit to be raised, but some driver training for the fuckwits in cars would do a lot more for safety than the speed limit does!

The same can be said of the need for improvement to the standard of riding.

[gwigs]

Its the speed of slowing down very suddenly that kills ya ....deceleration truama......

[Kickaha]

The same can be said of the need for improvement to the standard of riding.

Don't be stupid, any and all motorcyclists riding is above reproach as we are all above average road users :bleh:

[CookMySock]

[it's] just a carryover from when the speed limit was 60mphWuz it? :blink:

I don't recall the speed limit being 60mph. I thought it was 50mph, and I remember feeling surprised when they "put the speed limit up" to 100km/hr.

I think mostly 100k is plenty quick enough. There might be some places where the speed limit might be raised under some circumstances (clear road, no traffic, few corners) but I think our roading and legal system is just not geared to cater for that. Basically, there are too many systems to overhaul to make it feasible.

I purposely ride a bike with bumpy suspension with loads of feedback. Theres no need to smooth it out - if I do that then I just need to travel faster to get the same buzz.. why bother?

I'm happy to clatter along at 100-110k. If the limit was raised to 120 I'd utilise the new speed, but I'd have to think more (thats bad lol).

Steve

[davebullet]

Faster, but safer? That's unpossible!
Surely if that was true the government would put their efforts into making people better drivers irather than just penalizing the people that go faster than the limit?
A Government that just tickets the speeders and puts little effort into whatever might be needed to improve the standards of driving would be one hell of a lousy Government . . . oh, wait . . .

One of the silliest things in my opinion is when someone gains more than 100 demerit points - they just take the license away for 3 months, how does that help anything? I would rather see something sensible like >100 demerit points => compulsory advanced driver training course. I would also like to see demerit points not given out for exceeding the speed limit, but given out for bad driving. i.e. 'ello 'ello 'ello - I noticed you driving like a fuckwit - here's a ticket for 20 demerit points and a $200 fine, in future try to drive like someone with a brain please, have a nice day!

I think my idea would have a better chance of improving road safety than the current system.
Also - fiddling with the radio while driving = demerit points. When someone is out in public hurtling along at 100kph in 1.5 tonnes of glass & steel I think it would be a good idea for them to pay attention to controlling the vehicle and looking ahead - less chance of them killing someone then.

Ok - so going 200kph isn't safer than 100kph. Being exposed to danger whilst overtaking I believe can justify the temporary breaking of the limit.

The government puts their efforts into what is cost effective to enforce... Not what is best. Best implies a lot of cost. Because you have separate government departments, I don't see why ACC and Land transport are incentivised to work together. Maybe there are schemes / plans in place to improve driver / rider skills and training and thereby reduce accidents. But which of those 2 departments will pay for the cost? LTSA pays for the training, and ACC reaps the benefits. I don't think so says LTSA minister.

I agree with you about fines. The only benefit is it makes your bike more fuel efficient because your wallet is lighter. Fines do nothing to curb / correct the behaviour that lead to the fine.

[MSTRS]

I believe the 'old' limit was 55mph, dropped briefly to 50mph when the first gas crisis bit in the 70s, then increased to 60mph. The change to kph saw the limit go to 100kph for simplicity's sake. 100kph=62mph.
At the time, many vehicle speedo needles pointed straight up when at 60mph/100kph, so was easier to check peripherally than the slightly lower 55 being about 91kph.

[MarkH]

I believe the 'old' limit was 55mph, dropped briefly to 50mph when the first gas crisis bit in the 70s, then increased to 60mph. The change to kph saw the limit go to 100kph for simplicity's sake. 100kph=62mph.
At the time, many vehicle speedo needles pointed straight up when at 60mph/100kph, so was easier to check peripherally than the slightly lower 55 being about 91kph.

That doesn't sound right - I clearly remember a speed limit of 80kph in the 1980s. New Zealand changed to metric in 1975.

[george formby]

On the subject of speed, Margaret Thatcher scuppered the European Union's plans of a blanket horse power limit on motorcycles a few decades ago. The reason for the restriction was basically that speed kills so powerful bikes must be dangerous. She engaged British scientist's to find out if this was true before she agreed. Their findings were the opposite, riders of high power motorcycles were far less likely to cause an accident than your average road user because their skill level & observation was far better. Go figure.
Love her or hate her, Margaret Thatcher was a clever cookie, she also opposed catalytic converters way back in 1979 because they increase the amount of Co2 an engine produces.. I read this last bit in a car mag by the way.

[scumdog]

So, speed doesn't kill.

I never thought it did.

Accidents kill. And accidents happen at any speed. :(

'Accidents' are rarely accidents - crashes caused by inept driving is a more accurate description.

[CookMySock]

That doesn't sound right - I clearly remember a speed limit of 80kph in the 1980s. New Zealand changed to metric in 1975.Agreed.

Steve

[PeeJay]

http://www.transfund.govt.nz/fascinating-facts/20th-century-roadtoll.html

interesting factoids
1930... 30mph
1948... 50mph
1949... microwave
1954... First lady traffic cop
1955... wear a helmet over 30mph
1962... 55mph
1969... 60mph
1969... breathtesting
1970... speeding tickets introduced
1973... 843 road deaths
1974... 50mph
1974... compulsory helmets
1975... seatbelts
1985... 100kph
1987... 795 road deaths

They got stuck into speeding, drinkdriving, etc and for the last 25yrs the road toll has steadily trended down.

Posters have gone on about better training as a priority. good idea but it would take years to sort out.
If you introduce a more stringent system for new drivers you will still have the problem of all the existing drivers, probably 50 years for natural attrition to work through us all.
You could have compusory training for existing lisence holders and retesting but failing large numbers of existing drivers would be politically unacceptable.
On the other hand there is no point in testing if you arent going to have a decent standard which would likely result in a significant failure rate.
We really need all this to happen first before thinking about upping the speed limit.
Personally I think raising the speed limit will be way down the list of things to do in the govt Road Safety Initiatives

[PeeJay]

On the subject of speed, Margaret Thatcher scuppered the European Union's plans of a blanket horse power limit on motorcycles a few decades ago. The reason for the restriction was basically that speed kills so powerful bikes must be dangerous. She engaged British scientist's to find out if this was true before she agreed. Their findings were the opposite, riders of high power motorcycles were far less likely to cause an accident than your average road user because their skill level & observation was far better. Go figure.
Love her or hate her, Margaret Thatcher was a clever cookie, she also opposed catalytic converters way back in 1979 because they increase the amount of Co2 an engine produces.. I read this last bit in a car mag by the way.
So it follows that the quick way to decrease accidents and have increased skill levels and observation is for as many people as possible to have a high powered motorcycle?

[HondaSTrider]

So it follows that the quick way to decrease accidents and have increased skill levels and observation is for as many people as possible to have a high powered motorcycle?

or this....

Would have been about the same era when I read, also in a pommie bike mag, about a bike journo bloke who conducted a little experiment on the "SMIDSY" syndrome (Sorry Mate I Didn't See You).
You will have to forgive my failing memory for accuracy, but the figures are indicative only as I can't remember my own birthday at times let alone specific numbers from an article like this!! Wish I could find the article again!

For a set period of time (a fortnight or a month I think), this chappie rode a set route through London to and from work in his normal attire, obeying all relevant laws of the road etc, and he counted the number of infringments on his "right of way" Turned out to be something like 287 or similar.

For a second identical period, he rode the same route, same times of day etc but had his headlight on and a hi-vis vest, again taking note of the number of time his right of way was compromised... 216 or there-a-bouts... a reasonable reduction and obviously worth making the effort.

For the third period he borrowed a white motorcycle with a full fairing, white helmet, black jacket with hi-vis over-vest,... i.e. looking as much like a motorcycle cop as he possibly could. Number of infringments on his right of way over this period?.... something like 37!!!!!

Conclusion..?.... The SMIDSY excuse is total BS! What the average cage-clad punter fails to respond to as far as motorcycles go is a threat! Plain and simple... Once he sees a threat of any kind, eg PLOD! he reacts to it alright! Even if said ploddy type is only on two wheels! Failure to behave correctly will hurt and so driving behavior improves markedly.

I really regret throwing that mag out once I had finished with it because it would be great to have the exact figures to produce for you but you get the gist...
Education MUST be improved in the early stages of a motorists career, and as was suggested earlier, defensive driving / training courses instead of demerit points would also help IMHO.

I have long been a fan of "everyone" must spend 6 months to a year on a motorbike before they are elligible to apply for a car license anyway. That way, they learn a bit of traffic/road-reading skills or Darwins theory takes them out of the equation and the ones that do survive but couldn't even cope on a lightweight and highly manoueverable piece of machinery would never get to be incharge of tonnes of high velocity bike-buggering tin-tops!

[PeeJay]

Exactly. I used to own an ex MOT BMW, white but no lred&blues, lane splitting was a breeze

[quickbuck]

For the third period he borrowed a white motorcycle with a full fairing, white helmet, black jacket with hi-vis over-vest,... i.e. looking as much like a motorcycle cop as he possibly could. Number of infringments on his right of way over this period?.... something like 37!!!!!



Interesting.... And confirms what I have suspected for a while.....
Yes, it is all about the perceived threat.

So, I'm going to paint my CBR Pearl White.... At least it is a 2009 Honda Colour.... Oh, and save up for a White VFR800 :)
I have said it before on here, i think....
I was in a van with 3 other motorcyclists, and we were turning right into a side street.
There was a bit of room between us and an oncoming Kenworth Rig, but the driver gave way to him anyway... Really he would have made it easily.
The comment made was, " Best not take him on, not worth the risk".

Now, this is where I was thinking if we were on our bikes and there was somebody else was in the van how many drivers would have waited that extra 10 seconds before the bikes passed???

Answer... about ZERO! I'm picking.

[steve_t]

Posters have gone on about better training as a priority. good idea but it would take years to sort out.
If you introduce a more stringent system for new drivers you will still have the problem of all the existing drivers, probably 50 years for natural attrition to work through us all.


As would the change in the give way rule to bring us into line with the rest of the world. I never realised until getting on a bike how retarded and dangerous our give way system is.

[MarkH]

I never realised until getting on a bike how retarded and dangerous our give way system is.

Well, it's not as retarded and dangerous as the typical NZ car driver.

[shrub]

The SMIDSY excuse is total BS! What the average cage-clad punter fails to respond to as far as motorcycles go is a threat! Plain and simple... Once he sees a threat of any kind, eg PLOD! he reacts to it alright! Even if said ploddy type is only on two wheels! Failure to behave correctly will hurt and so driving behavior improves markedly.


I agree entirely. I am 190 cm and 120 kgs, wear black leathers and ride a black and very staunch looking Triumph with LOUD pipes. I very, very, VERY rarely have people not seeing me - probably 3 or 4 a year, and I ride around 15 - 20,000 kms a year including shitloads of urban. Why? I look scary and ride very assertively.



I have long been a fan of "everyone" must spend 6 months to a year on a motorbike before they are elligible to apply for a car license anyway. That way, they learn a bit of traffic/road-reading skills or Darwins theory takes them out of the equation and the ones that do survive but couldn't even cope on a lightweight and highly manoueverable piece of machinery would never get to be incharge of tonnes of high velocity bike-buggering tin-tops!

In Finland it is possible to get a license to ride a moped at 15 and a light motorcycle at 16, but not to drive a car until 18. Starter for 10: which European country has one of the lowest traffic crash rates in the world?

[scumdog]

I have long been a fan of "everyone" must spend 6 months to a year on a motorbike before they are elligible to apply for a car license anyway. That way, they learn a bit of traffic/road-reading skills or Darwins theory takes them out of the equation and the ones that do survive but couldn't even cope on a lightweight and highly manoueverable piece of machinery would never get to be incharge of tonnes of high velocity bike-buggering tin-tops!

Damn right, I agree almost 100% - a year at least on the bike though!

[davebullet]

I suspect the above is the reason there has been a marked increase in 4wd vehicles over the years on our roads. If I look imposing / tougher than you, that will give me right of way.

The idea of getting everyone to start their driving / riding in a vulnerable category is a great idea.

PS: I think the NZ giveway rule is quite simple. May not be the best for traffic flow, but it amazes me how many people don't understand "give way to your right". This applies especially to traffic right turning out of a major carpark exit. They often never get right of way (as they should) from vehicles right turning into the carpark.

[Pixie]

So ,as all accidents are only caused by speed,alcohol and not wearing seatbelts,drivers must be drinking more or not wearing seatbelts morer.

[MSTRS]

That doesn't sound right - I clearly remember a speed limit of 80kph in the 1980s. New Zealand changed to metric in 1975.
You have that trouble too? Car-less days were in the early 80s.


1948... 50mph

1962... 55mph

1969... 60mph

1974... 50mph

1985... 100kph

[MSTRS]

'Accidents' are rarely accidents - crashes caused by inept driving is a more accurate description.

Try and tell that to the kids of today...and they won't believe you.

[CookMySock]

I suspect the above is the reason there has been a marked increase in 4wd vehicles over the years on our roads. If I look imposing / tougher than you, that will give me right of way.Have you owned a powerful road-going 4WD? They are a blast to drive, and so useful. They also fit to the kwi culture quite nicely.

Yes, it is quite noticeable how much bigger you are than everyone else, and it soon becomes clear that you should behave in one. To most people anyway.

But I feel "bigger" and more in command on my 650 than I do in my Hilux Surf, by a wide margin. If any 4WD wanted to argue with me I'd just laugh and leave, and there wouldn't be fuck all he could do about it.

Steve

[PrincessBandit]

Bloody hell - Mahia Rd in good ole Manure-wa ranked 2nd highest for ticket issues nationwide!!
Paula Rose did point out that people choose to break the speed restrictions, resulting in receiving a ticket; maybe people are finally getting the message that it is their choice to risk a ticket, not just money gathering road nazis who are "picking on them". Interestingly from what I read today the road statistics for deaths has dropped significantly; second lowest in 40 years if I recall.
I think there is definitely a positive message in there somewhere.

[george formby]

Bloody hell - Mahia Rd in good ole Manure-wa ranked 2nd highest for ticket issues nationwide!!
Paula Rose did point out that people choose to break the speed restrictions, resulting in receiving a ticket; maybe people are finally getting the message that it is their choice to risk a ticket, not just money gathering road nazis who are "picking on them". Interestingly from what I read today the road statistics for deaths has dropped significantly; second lowest in 40 years if I recall.
I think there is definitely a positive message in there somewhere.

Not so long ago the gummint was promoting the effectiveness of their anti speeding campaigns with the same statistic. If I remember rightly the accident rate had increased but fatalities are down. This has no effect on us, we are vulnerable regardless of the speed. I still think it is positive that road users are being forced to think though. I believe the majority of road users just want to get from A to B safely & easily, so if people are slowing down & being more cautious then thats a good thing even if the cause is flawed.

[James Deuce]

B
I think there is definitely a positive message in there somewhere.

The only message is that no one has any money to go anywhere.

Once banks start lending money for holidays again, the road toll will more than rebound as people reward theselves for missing out a holiday or two.

[Ixion]

Actually I seriously wonder how much of it is due to reduced international tourism because of the "global recession". Think how many bikers have been taken out by tourists .

Fewer tourists means fewer campervans and fewer people on the wrong side of the road. A plus not just for bikes but for everyone.

[scumdog]

Actually I seriously wonder how much of it is due to reduced international tourism because of the "global recession". Think how many bikers have been taken out by tourists .

Fewer tourists means fewer campervans and fewer people on the wrong side of the road. A plus not just for bikes but for everyone.

And fewer foriegn tourists binning their rented bikes..don't forget that too.

[Ixion]

I wonder how common that is? It could be a useful argument. Does anyone ahve any "inside knowledge" ?

[george formby]

And fewer foriegn tourists binning their rented bikes..don't forget that too.

I guess that would be mimimal. Riding a bike feels the same whichever side of the road your on (much to my amazement) & NZ doe's not have a monopoly on gravel, corners, cow poo & rain. Anybody wanting to ride a bike here with the associated costs would be pretty clued up IMHO.

[Ixion]

Not so sure about that. I have a perception that a lot of the rental market is to tourists with very little open road experience. And while we don't have a monopo;y on stuff, many Yank riders don't actually ride in the rain. And probably aren't familiar with gravel, either.

[scumdog]

I wonder how common that is? It could be a useful argument. Does anyone ahve any "inside knowledge" ?

Dunno how many but have been to one or two (one a fatal) - I guess you have even less reminder to keep to the left on a bike (no steering wheel on the 'wrong side' to remind you).

I think a certain level of "I've only got XXX days in this country and XX days with this rented bike so I had better keep going" involved - plus the odd one who is tail end of a group playin 'catch-up' and overcooks a corner in doing so.

[McJim]

I'm a foreigner and have no problem driving on the correct side of the road...or of riding my bike for that matter.:Pokey:

[Ixion]

Yes yes yes, but you're a foreigner from a country where they drive on the correct side of the road. So it's not going to make any difference to you, is it?

And anyway , you're from Glasgow.

I'm talking about PROPER foreigners, ones from Forn Parts, where they drive all perverted .

[Berries]

I wonder how common that is? It could be a useful argument. Does anyone ahve any "inside knowledge" ?

I did some research on tourist crashes a few years back (bikes and cars). While in some areas they may make up 20% of crash involved drivers/riders there is no data on what percentage of them are on the road in those areas so it is hard to say whether they are a 'real' problem. There are those on the wrong side of the road for Europeans and yanks, but generally they have the same crashes as locals do including crashing on gravel roads, overcooking it in to corners when playing catch up and the standard intersection type crashes. Quite often the fact they are from overseas is pretty much irrelevant to the crash.

I don't think there are going to be enough overseas rider crashes to help with an argument. You have those here for two weeks who are in a hurry, but you also have those who have been working here for nine months. You need to dig deeper and look at their country of origin, time in the country, and then riding experience both here and back home. Big job.

[george formby]

I'm talking about PROPER foreigners, ones from Forn Parts, where they drive all perverted .

I've been to Amsterdam too.

[Ixion]

I did some research on tourist crashes a few years back (bikes and cars). While in some areas they may make up 20% of crash involved drivers/riders there is no data on what percentage of them are on the road in those areas so it is hard to say whether they are a 'real' problem. There are those on the wrong side of the road for Europeans and yanks, but generally they have the same crashes as locals do including crashing on gravel roads, overcooking it in to corners when playing catch up and the standard intersection type crashes. Quite often the fact they are from overseas is pretty much irrelevant to the crash.

I don't think there are going to be enough overseas rider crashes to help with an argument. You have those here for two weeks who are in a hurry, but you also have those who have been working here for nine months. You need to dig deeper and look at their country of origin, time in the country, and then riding experience both here and back home. Big job.

It could probably be targeted on rental bike crashes. Those could be assumed to by and large be short term tourists. The question is tourist crashes not crashes by foreigners (Or Glaswegians) who have come here semi permanently.

[Mikkel]

In Finland it is possible to get a license to ride a moped at 15 and a light motorcycle at 16, but not to drive a car until 18. Starter for 10: which European country has one of the lowest traffic crash rates in the world?

Same deal in DK. You can get a moped at 15 - and you have to go through a rigorous (by NZ standards) education process to get your license. You can get a license for a tractor at the same age. Cars and motorcycles you have to wait until age 18 - and the process of getting the license is much more thorough.


PS: I think the NZ giveway rule is quite simple. May not be the best for traffic flow, but it amazes me how many people don't understand "give way to your right". This applies especially to traffic right turning out of a major carpark exit. They often never get right of way (as they should) from vehicles right turning into the carpark.

It is simple. But it is also completely daft. As for giving way to traffic coming out of carparks - that will confound people from elsewhere since in many places you have to give way when going onto a proper street from carparks, private roads and gravel roads - whether there is a "Give way" sign or not.
The really frustrating bit is when people are stopping to give way when turning left into a multiple carriageway. Or people coming from the other side thinks it is their right to come barging across three lanes of traffic to take the next left.


Actually I seriously wonder how much of it is due to reduced international tourism because of the "global recession". Think how many bikers have been taken out by tourists .

Fewer tourists means fewer campervans and fewer people on the wrong side of the road. A plus not just for bikes but for everyone.

Actually I seriously wonder how much factual basis you have for this hypothesis. How many bikers have actually been taken out by tourists? We can all remember the tragic accident with the overcorrecting campervan (they were driving on the left) that crossed the road and took out two motorcycles, both carrying pillions. A couple of things to ponder:

1) Not all kiwis, motorcyclists included, manage to stay on the right (that would be as opposed to wrong, not left) side of the road all the time.
2) Plenty of campervans driven by kiwis.
3) How many accidents, involving tourists, actually have anything to do with driving on the wrong side of the road?
4) Are overseas driving standards inferior to NZ driving standards?


I did some research on tourist crashes a few years back (bikes and cars). While in some areas they may make up 20% of crash involved drivers/riders there is no data on what percentage of them are on the road in those areas so it is hard to say whether they are a 'real' problem. There are those on the wrong side of the road for Europeans and yanks, but generally they have the same crashes as locals do including crashing on gravel roads, overcooking it in to corners when playing catch up and the standard intersection type crashes. Quite often the fact they are from overseas is pretty much irrelevant to the crash.

I don't think there are going to be enough overseas rider crashes to help with an argument. You have those here for two weeks who are in a hurry, but you also have those who have been working here for nine months. You need to dig deeper and look at their country of origin, time in the country, and then riding experience both here and back home. Big job.

Big job, and most likely pretty pointless too. As long as we see a person killed in traffic pretty much everyday on average and the vast majority of all involved are Kiwis I don't think bashing tourists is a worthwhile exercise.

[James Deuce]

In the same sequence of corners where Flyin died in the Wairarapa, a tourist on the wrong side of the road killed two motorcyclists, approx 5 years ago.

[Berries]

Totally agree. And your point 4 is important, especially when considering the amount of comment on the forum regarding the poor rider/driver training over here.

[ManDownUnder]

Doesn't the combination of speeding tickets reducing and the road toll climbing also suggest the possibility that speeding motorists are getting better at avoiding detection?

It'd reduce the speeding tickets issued and the associated revenue streams, but also possibly open the door to speeding more between cops/cameras/revenue collection mechanisms

[scumdog]

Doesn't the combination of speeding tickets reducing and the road toll climbing also suggest the possibility that speeding motorists are getting better at avoiding detection?

It'd reduce the speeding tickets issued and the associated revenue streams, but also possibly open the door to speeding more between cops/cameras/revenue collection mechanisms

C'mon, stop thinkin', - it ain't the KB way...:whistle::devil2:

[steve_t]

Doesn't the combination of speeding tickets reducing and the road toll climbing also suggest the possibility that speeding motorists are getting better at avoiding detection?

It'd reduce the speeding tickets issued and the associated revenue streams, but also possibly open the door to speeding more between cops/cameras/revenue collection mechanisms

Don't suggest that! Are you trying to get radar detectors banned?:Pokey:

[ManDownUnder]

Don't suggest that! Are you trying to get radar detectors banned?:Pokey:

If they're getting people killed... wouldn't you?

[steve_t]

If they're getting people killed... wouldn't you?

Hmmm... interesting point. My brain's still on holiday. I'll ponder it later:2thumbsup

[ManDownUnder]

Hmmm... interesting point. My brain's still on holiday. I'll ponder it later:2thumbsup

yeah all good.

I'm just checking it out there personally. I don't have an agenda one way or the other. I'm no fan of paying speeding tickets either and must admit I have managed to avoid them pretty well thus far

[Kickaha]

You have that trouble too? Car-less days were in the early 80s.

They were introduced in 1979 but didn't last very long, they were gone by the time I got my licence a year or two later

[James Deuce]

My Dad used to nick my bike on our carless day (Tuesday) and I had to walk my paper run. Sucked.

[Monkeynz]

I've been to Amsterdam too.

MMMMMMM Amsterdam, now there's a place to behold. Coffee anyone?:wacko::doobey:

[MSTRS]

They were introduced in 1979 but didn't last very long, they were gone by the time I got my licence a year or two later
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/carless-days

Carless days for motor vehicles were introduced on 30 July 1979 to combat the second oil shock. They did little to reduce petrol consumption and were scrapped in May 1980.
I did use the word 'too'...

[Winston001]

Doesn't the combination of speeding tickets reducing and the road toll climbing also suggest the possibility that speeding motorists are getting better at avoiding detection?

It'd reduce the speeding tickets issued and the associated revenue streams, but also possibly open the door to speeding more between cops/cameras/revenue collection mechanisms

Good thought Ned. I haven't read the whole thread but I imagine it is the usual "speed is fine, bad drivers are the cause of accidents. etc etc....".

I'm sure it is a combination of both. With regard to speed - and I am a speed junkie - we can't deny the rules of physics. The faster we go the bigger the mess. Trite, boring, but true.

There is no perfect driver or rider. We all make micro-errors. All that needs to happen is for the error to combine with mud on the road or another inattentive motorist and we become a statistic.

[ManDownUnder]

I'm sure it is a combination of both. With regard to speed - and I am a speed junkie - we can't deny the rules of physics. The faster we go the bigger the mess. Trite, boring, but true.

Yeah - I did a defensive/advanced driving course years ago and the instructor said something like "I don't care how good you and your car is, if you go too fast around a corner you will fall off"

Me thinks he was right

[98tls]

Yeah - I did a defensive/advanced driving course years ago and the instructor said something like "I don't care how good you and your car is, if you go too fast around a corner you will fall off

Me thinks he was right Somehow that reminded me of my very early motorcycle days,personal shit aside one of the most talented motorcyclists ive ever known was my old man,still riding at 69 (1250 Bandit).Can still remember him saying "if your not falling off your not going fast enough".All things considered looking back he was correct and through the offs i learnt a few things,surviving those offs however is all down to lady luck.Anyway carry on........(quietly shuffles off to the corner).

[scumdog]

http://www.transfund.govt.nz/fascinating-facts/20th-century-roadtoll.html

interesting factoids

1985... 100kph

And boy, didn't they bombard us with the "Yes, we're raising the speed limit but we're also going to strictly enforce it and woe betide anybody exceeding it"

Of course initially everybody thought "fair enough"

But pretty soon frogot that warning and screamed everytime a speeding ticket was handed to them.:yes::rolleyes:

[Katman]

.All things considered looking back he was correct and through the offs i learnt a few things

Sadly, far too many don't.

(And many don't get the chance to).

[98tls]

Sadly, far too many don't.

(And many don't get the chance to). Yes agreed its sad indeed.Taken back to basics this pastime we all enjoy so much is rather precarious at best,Mrs Luck has featured many times in my life on 2 wheels as she did for one of my family members years back though not smiling on that occasion.The road toll has nothing to do with average speeds but far more to do with stupidity and this past holiday break ive seen more of it than in years past though thankfully they got away with it.

[FJRider]

The road toll has nothing to do with average speeds but far more to do with stupidity and this past holiday break ive seen more of it than in years past though thankfully they got away with it.

I live within an hour's drive of Queenstown. One of NZ's main "holiday towns". About 80% of the traffic is to or from there ... holiday mode ... all year round.

And the volume of traffic is increasing .... :yes:

[FJRider]

There is no perfect driver or rider. We all make micro-errors. All that needs to happen is for the error to combine with mud on the road or another inattentive motorist and we become a statistic.

In most cases, it in not one factor that is the cause of an "accident" ... A "micro-error" on our part, combined with factors such as weather, road condition, "other" motorists. Individually ... not an issue. TOGETHER ... another entry in the ACC statistic's ...

[PeeJay]

Somehow that reminded me of my very early motorcycle days,personal shit aside one of the most talented motorcyclists ive ever known was my old man,still riding at 69 (1250 Bandit).Can still remember him saying "if your not falling off your not going fast enough".All things considered looking back he was correct and through the offs i learnt a few things,surviving those offs however is all down to lady luck.Anyway carry on........(quietly shuffles off to the corner).

That saying has been around quite a while but I dont think it was intended to be taken seriously.
It was a tongue in cheek excuse given by "fast" riders who fell off while coming first.
Unfortunately some people actually believed it.
Confucius say slow down to go fasterer makes more sense and he didnt even have a motorbike.
The most important thing I learnt from falling off is dont.

[peasea]

Shall we start with speed, whereby it seems to be accepted on this site, as per the post by Shrub above, that if you are not exceeding the speed limit then it can not be a factor.

This is wrong, speed is driving to the conditions, and from the information given by shrub it was excessive. A person, or persons, in that group was travelling at a speed above there experience, the conditions at the time, and that associated with inattention has been a contributing factor to the crash.

For a proper analysis of crashes, ALL factors have to be considered and recorded, not just the ones you may like to include.

I have skimmed this thread and there appears to be one factor that has been overlooked. (Forgive me if I've missed it.)

The powers that be quote the total number of deaths every year (tragic, yes, whatever the figure) but they never quote the number of deaths per head of motoring population. That's deaths per 100,000 licensed vehicle operators or per 10,000 vehicles. As the general population grows and the kiwi lust for mobility grows with it the number of licensed vehicle operators and road-going vehicles also grows. The 'real' road toll has been dropping for some years and when I say 'real' I mean per 100,000 people and per 10,000 vehicles. You can't expect a population of 200million to have a road toll of three, if you get my drift. I have no problem with trying to keep things to a minimum but with humans being adept at making mistakes a certain number will (unfortunately) come a cropper.

Check this chart out;
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/section1-historical-2006.pdf

In 2008 we lost 8.6 people per 100,000 but back in 1973 we lost 27.9!! A lot has changed in a quarter of a century too; cars and bikes have got faster, way faster but things like air bags and crumple zones are doing their bit for car drivers (which, let's face it are the majority of road users) and social reaction to drinking and driving has also changed dramatically.

You can do what you like with statistics but the fact remains; per 100,000 the road toll is down.

[Pixie]

I note that the lower toll this holiday period was put down to such innovative road safety measures as making using a hand held phone illegal while driving.

So that was a major cause of accidents in holiday periods past,was it? Fucking wankers.

And that is why road safety in NZ only improves when people travel less and cars get better passive safety measures,Your Honour.

[pzkpfw]

And in todays' news: (If we can believe the AA...)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3207717/Alter-licence-system-to-cut-toll-says-AA


CRASH STATISTICS

Most common crash causes recorded since 2000 were:

1. Poor observation

2. Failing to give way/stop

3. Other (description used when the crash could not be properly categorised)

4. Poor handling

5. Speed

6. Alcohol

7. Poor judgement

8. Road factors.



(These are "crashes", I didn't see it specifying whether they were death-causing accidents.)

[peasea]

I live within an hour's drive of Queenstown. One of NZ's main "holiday towns". About 80% of the traffic is to or from there ... holiday mode ... all year round.

And the volume of traffic is increasing .... :yes:

You have my sympathy. We were in Qt last week and it was just as I remembered it, a beautiful spot completely fucked by holiday makers. We hated every minute of our brief stay (en route to Glenorchy) and couldn't wait to get out of town. It's like a miniature Auckland only with campervans.

[peasea]

I note that the lower toll this holiday period was put down to such innovative road safety measures as making using a hand held phone illegal while driving.

So that was a major cause of accidents in holiday periods past,was it? Fucking wankers.

And that is why road safety in NZ only improves when people travel less and cars get better passive safety measures,Your Honour.

Yes, I noticed that, what tossers.

[James Deuce]

In 2008 we lost 8.6 people per 100,000 but back in 1973 we lost 27.9!! A lot has changed in a quarter of a century too; cars and bikes have got faster, way faster but things like air bags and crumple zones are doing their bit for car drivers (which, let's face it are the majority of road users) and social reaction to drinking and driving has also changed dramatically.

You can do what you like with statistics but the fact remains; per 100,000 the road toll is down.

That's the only statistic that is an absolute and the only one that should be used to draw any conclusions. Prior to the introduction of seatbelts and helmets, 3 times as many people were killed on NZ's roads. So the road toll would be 1200 per year given the same circumstances as 1973. Cars with no brakes, no power, no seatbelts and 14 people and a giant tent crammed in for the Summer holiday trip.

The bloody Gubbmint should be saying well done! Over the last 40 years youse fellas have had to cope with massive increases in traffic density, adapt to changing road layouts and usage while we slowly "upgraded" the congested nexii in each major city. Through all that along with changes to how society uses cars, you just about stopped drinking and driving, cut the road toll to a third of what it was (as a per capita rate) and traveled vastly greater distances every year. We banned cellphone usage in moving vehicles because you fellas asked for it, but we're not sure if it will change things. We'll let you know in 10 years.

We're very pleased with you.

Keep it up.

[Berries]

And in todays' news:

CRASH STATISTICS

Most common crash causes recorded since 2000 were:

1. Poor observation
2. Failing to give way/stop
3. Other (description used when the crash could not be properly categorised)
4. Poor handling
5. Speed
6. Alcohol
7. Poor judgement
8. Road factors.


If anyone is interested it what these groups actually mean, apart from the obvious ones, go here - http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/road-safety-data/central-otago/index.html and have a look at a 2009 report. The Appendix had a list of the crash codes that make up those groups together with a list of all the codes used on crash reports.

[peasea]

That's the only statistic that is an absolute and the only one that should be used to draw any conclusions. Prior to the introduction of seatbelts and helmets, 3 times as many people were killed on NZ's roads. So the road toll would be 1200 per year given the same circumstances as 1973. Cars with no brakes, no power, no seatbelts and 14 people and a giant tent crammed in for the Summer holiday trip.

The bloody Gubbmint should be saying well done! Over the last 40 years youse fellas have had to cope with massive increases in traffic density, adapt to changing road layouts and usage while we slowly "upgraded" the congested nexii in each major city. Through all that along with changes to how society uses cars, you just about stopped drinking and driving, cut the road toll to a third of what it was (as a per capita rate) and traveled vastly greater distances every year. We banned cellphone usage in moving vehicles because you fellas asked for it, but we're not sure if it will change things. We'll let you know in 10 years.


We're very pleased with you.

Keep it up.

With you 100%, but the chances of the Govt. saying anything positive about NZ drivers/riders are pretty slim. I'm glad I'm not the only one who can see through the statistics smoke screen.

[Mikkel]

Yeah - I did a defensive/advanced driving course years ago and the instructor said something like "I don't care how good you and your car is, if you go too fast around a corner you will fall off"

Me thinks he was right

Yep, it's the propaganda, that any speed above the posted speed limit is too fast, which is pissing people off. Just like there are plenty of places where doing the speed limit would be going way too fast... the opposite is also true.


And boy, didn't they bombard us with the "Yes, we're raising the speed limit but we're also going to strictly enforce it and woe betide anybody exceeding it"

Of course initially everybody thought "fair enough"

Quite a lot has happened in the years since. New fangled electronics like ABS and EPS. Airbags, seatbelt pre-tensioners, improved crumplezones, etc. Better tyres, generally higher specced brakes, more power, etc. Today's vehicles are much more capable than those made 25 years ago.

Certainly there has been a very large increase in traffic density.

Have there been any significant changes as to how driver education is being handled?


That's the only statistic that is an absolute and the only one that should be used to draw any conclusions. Prior to the introduction of seatbelts and helmets, 3 times as many people were killed on NZ's roads. So the road toll would be 1200 per year given the same circumstances as 1973. Cars with no brakes, no power, no seatbelts and 14 people and a giant tent crammed in for the Summer holiday trip.

The bloody Gubbmint should be saying well done! Over the last 40 years youse fellas have had to cope with massive increases in traffic density, adapt to changing road layouts and usage while we slowly "upgraded" the congested nexii in each major city. Through all that along with changes to how society uses cars, you just about stopped drinking and driving, cut the road toll to a third of what it was (as a per capita rate) and traveled vastly greater distances every year. We banned cellphone usage in moving vehicles because you fellas asked for it, but we're not sure if it will change things. We'll let you know in 10 years.

We're very pleased with you.

Keep it up.

A very good point. But there is one misconception - road safety is not about the individuals involved. Congratulating the road users on the fact that they crash less is erroneous. Road safety depends upon the regulations imposed. Sensible regulations, enforced in a sensible manner will provide better results than hard-line regulations enforced with righteous zeal or slack regulations enforced with leniency.

No matter how much road safety in NZ has improved over the last 40 years, there are absolutely no excuses as to why the number of accidents per passenger mile in NZ should be any higher than in any other western country. If anything it should be less considering the relatively low traffic density.

[Goblin]

or this....

I have long been a fan of "everyone" must spend 6 months to a year on a motorbike before they are elligible to apply for a car license anyway. That way, they learn a bit of traffic/road-reading skills or Darwins theory takes them out of the equation and the ones that do survive but couldn't even cope on a lightweight and highly manoueverable piece of machinery would never get to be incharge of tonnes of high velocity bike-buggering tin-tops!Me too! A friend of mine has recently got into riding after 20 odd years driving a car only. She now has a whole new awareness and her driving has improved considerably.

One thing that bugs me riding the open roads lately is all these stupid "safety" billboards on the roadsides. Things like "Travelling too fast? Slow down! It's that simple." or "Distracted drivers cause crashes. It's that simple" I wonder how many will crash while reading stupid safety billboards?

[yungatart]

One thing that bugs me riding the open roads lately is all these stupid "safety" billboards on the roadsides. Things like "Travelling too fast? Slow down! It's that simple." or "Distracted drivers cause crashes. It's that simple" I wonder how many will crash while reading stupid safety billboards?

Or the one on the Napier -Taupo Rd on a left hand bend, quite clearly showing a car on a right hander..."Don't Cross the Centre Line"...great billboard...wrong place.

[Goblin]

Or the one on the Napier -Taupo Rd on a left hand bend, quite clearly showing a car on a right hander..."Don't Cross the Centre Line"...great billboard...wrong place.
:laugh: Have seen that one too. Or the truckie one..."Check your log book" Hope they dont check them while driving.

Took my Tiny to W(h)anganui on the bike for Boxing Day and had a couple of moments on the road. On the Paraparas a silver mitzi came around a bend, all crossed up, well over the centre line straight towards us. :shit: Then on the way home, just heading into Turangi, a car was quite away ahead but I noticed him cross the centre line into our lane then suddenly swerve back into his own lane. As he went past I saw him reading a map.:slap:

[MSTRS]

Don't panic. At least he wasn't on his cellphone...
He was likely only doing 80kph.
And he probably had his seatbelt on, too.

[scumdog]

Done some digging - apart from the drop in fatalities tha crash rate itself has dropped down here in this neck of the woods. (And no, the population hasn't dropped too!)