Big bike frames

[Scotty595]

How many people use big bike frames for there buckets (250s)? Was just having a look through the bucket racing website and saw a list of frames including RGV250, RS250, TZR, NSR, ZXR, CBR etc. Also what engine do you run in them?

Just wondering if anyone has any feedback about them as opposed to a standard FXR frame/engine combo (or other "common" bucket racer frames/engines)

[Henk]

There are a couple that I know of. An NSR frame with a DRZ125 motor in Hastings and Speedpros ZXR250 frame with a heavily modified MB100 engine, they both seem to go alright. Shelracing had a Yamaha Delta frame with a lonchin motor for a while but I think the bike has evolved a bit since then. Still unning that frame as far as I'm aware.

[jasonu]

Don't do it unless you are a bigger size (like MGreen aka speedpro who is tall) as you will wind up with a 100+kg machine that has to compete with bikes with similar power that are 20+kg lighter.

[Scotty595]

Don't do it unless you are a bigger size (like MGreen aka speedpro who is tall) as you will wind up with a 100+kg machine that has to compete with bikes with similar power that are 20+kg lighter.

Im not too tall. Average. Little bit heavy though so i'm assuming it will just make me on a very heavy bike and not much power

[Kickaha]

I was a bit sceptical until this last season when I rode bren_chch TZR framed FXR150 for the MotoFXR season, handling was considerably better than a stock FXR, good brakes and good rim sizes for the slicks, I weighed in at the time at 90kg+ as well, there were quite a few lighter rider/bikes finishing behind me

The stock FXR is a good package but it can be improved on

[Yow Ling]

I have a TZR framed FXR, i think its about 92kg which is a good 10 kg less than a FXR, its a long way off a RS frame but i could get the weight down a bit with different wheels etc. My problems are rider related, not bike related at the moment

I have been building a RG250 framed bucket with a TF100 , it has plenty of promise weighs in around 85kg, the promises are still to be realised.

ive got a few other frames RGV250 VJ21, and TZR250 3MA but I cant see me using them as buckets they seem to be pretty bulked up and would look a bit silly with skinny wheels.

One of my first buckets was a RZ250 frame with a fxr motor, Gavimoto has it now I think he stole the front end for his fxr

[Scotty595]

I have a TZR framed FXR, i think its about 92kg which is a good 10 kg less than a FXR, its a long way off a RS frame but i could get the weight down a bit with different wheels etc. My problems are rider related, not bike related at the moment

I have been building a RG250 framed bucket with a TF100 , it has plenty of promise weighs in around 85kg, the promises are still to be realised.

ive got a few other frames RGV250 VJ21, and TZR250 3MA but I cant see me using them as buckets they seem to be pretty bulked up and would look a bit silly with skinny wheels.

One of my first buckets was a RZ250 frame with a fxr motor, Gavimoto has it now I think he stole the front end for his fxr

Have been thinking of something like an rs250 frame with loncin/fxr motor inside.

[Skunk]

I have a TZR framed TF125. Sketchy has a RGV framed MB100 and Speedpro's is a FZR frame I'm sure. Fishy's is a ZXR framed Loncin.

[bucketracer]

I have been building a RG250 framed bucket with a TF100 , it has plenty of promise weighs in around 85kg, the promises are still to be realised.



Is an RG frame a good bet for a bucket with a 2-stroke motor? they seem to come up on Trademe once in a while.

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[Yow Ling]

All the problems ive had are nothing t to do with the frame, handles good still got a wee way to go

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae234/YowLingRacing/P1000892.jpg

[speedpro]

Mine is an FZR250 3LN(later model) chassis. Most of the 250 chassis are sport oriented, though they are about 20years old now they are still better than the cheap commuter models such as the FXR. Standard they generally have good rim sizes, outstanding brakes, in fact you can lose a disc and still be plenty good, and the suspension can be tweaked to perfection. Being a bit bigger they are more comfortable but could be slower on the big tracks due to drag. Weight wise I think you can expect around 90Kg with a 2-stroke engine and a bit more with a diesel. Being physically bigger you can fit any legal bucket motor in without any problems.

I reckon they are the go unless you really want the serious lightweight performance of an RS.

[saxet]

I run a RGV250 rolling chassis, GSX250r rear rim with GP125 engine at present. I prefer the RGV ,which has been jacked up at the rear, to the FXR as it feels more rigid and can absorb rougher treatment....tho that could be all in my head.

[koba]

Don't do it unless you are a bigger size (like MGreen aka speedpro who is tall) as you will wind up with a 100+kg machine that has to compete with bikes with similar power that are 20+kg lighter.

I think the rigidity of a such a frame helps alot on a kart track, it may be a different story at Taupo or Ruapuna but were we race it has less to do with power to weight ratio.

Plus being easyt to ride it worth alot as one learns.

[koba]

Is an RG frame a good bet for a bucket with a 2-stroke motor? they seem to come up on Trademe once in a while.

.
Standard front rim is 16 inch so that deserves the bin due to lack of tyre choice.
I think they are probably OK but I wouldn't pay too much for one.

[Geriatric]

Hi, Ive got an old GSXR250 (87/88) steel frame with 70's Yamaha DT125. Put 20mm spacers in the forks and a 5mm spacer to stiffen the rear spring and it handles really well. Good thing about steel frames is they are easy to chop and weld. Weight is 97kg.
Took one of the discs off the front to reduce weight and changed the brake reservoir and lines for the required hydraulics and haven't noticed any difference in stopping ability.
made up some rear sets to lift the pegs up 25mm and back 25mm
I'm over 6ft and a bit long in the tooth so find the extra height of the 250 frame much easier. Rode a couple of smaller RGV types and felt too cramped (15 laps of Kaitoke and the old joints complain somewhat)
Now if I can get the engine sorted and tuck the chamber in bit for better ground clearance, I'll be happy

[F5 Dave]

. . . Put 20mm spacers in the forks and a 5mm spacer to stiffen the rear spring . . .
Pity that that doesn't stiffen the spring rate, only increases preload. To get it stiffer you need to (practically) increase wire diameter or reduce live coils.

[speedpro]

I've learnt heaps about suspension now that I have something that actually responds in a meaningful way to adjustments. My front forks are a combination of three sets of forks and I actually cut down the preload spacers so I ended up with maybe 5mm preload. The sag is all measured and is within the suggested range. I've fitted cartridge emulators to control compression damping and therefore dive rather than preload the springs to stop dive happening which also stops much else happening. You can get decent 17" rims for not too much money so don't be put off by unsuitable wheels if the rest of the bike/chassis is good.

[Scotty595]

I've learnt heaps about suspension now that I have something that actually responds in a meaningful way to adjustments. My front forks are a combination of three sets of forks and I actually cut down the preload spacers so I ended up with maybe 5mm preload. The sag is all measured and is within the suggested range. I've fitted cartridge emulators to control compression damping and therefore dive rather than preload the springs to stop dive happening which also stops much else happening. You can get decent 17" rims for not too much money so don't be put off by unsuitable wheels if the rest of the bike/chassis is good.

Cool. There is a RS250 frame/bike etc on TM at the moment but it dont have wheels and tank and a bent swingarm. Would it be easy enough to source some new wheels for it (not aprilia as they are $$$) and easy enough to get a good engine to put in?

[F5 Dave]

Buying bits piecemeal is always more expensive. But sometimes you have to. But what about shock & linkages? That could ad up super quick for something exotic(ish).

[speedpro]

What Dave said. Getting axles, spacers, caliper mounts, further alterations etc etc can add up real fast plus the bent swingarm bit is a worry - how is the rest of the frame?? I'd keep looking. It may cost a bit more to get a mostly full rolling chassis but the wheels will fit, the calipers will be in the right place, the discs will mount on the wheels and so on. Just throw tyres and an engine at it and away you go.

[Scotty595]

Yeah thought it might be a bit dodgey. Esp for the price that its got on it atm. Guess i will be best to get a prebuilt fxr or something :D

[TZ350]

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If your into 2-strokes the better engines have to be Honda MB100's and Suzuki GP100 and 125's or if your bored with selfharm and really want to feel some pain a TF100 will do the trick. The "SAFE" bet is one of those 150cc 4-stroke things.

.

[Henk]

If you decide to go the safe bet way don't worry too much about getting a pre built one.
The conversion takes almost no time if you have some mechanical apptitude and you can run one pretty much stock to start with. First time out mine had the tail light and headlight removed. Could just as easily have left them alone. The only thing you really need to do to get on track is whack some nylon on it and take the sidestand off. I've only gone as far as I have to make it look pretty initially and to crash proof it as much as possible. Now I'm trying to find a bit of extra performance to make up for my lack of ability, doubt it will help me all that much though. It is fun taking things away to see what happens.

[=cJ=]

If you're interested, I have a CBR250 frame and forks and front and rear wheel floating round doing nothing. I picked it up pretty cheap, so would let it go fairly cheaply too :)

[Scotty595]

Only thing with this is the price of bloody FXR's etc on TM. Have you seen the price of these? I could get a bucket FXR for WAY less than what the asking price for some on TM. It would be a shame to get a perfectly good bike, rip all the road gear off and go for it. It would be great and i would have my bucket but its not really worth paying the extra for all the "road bits" when your not going to use them

[Scotty595]

If you're interested, I have a CBR250 frame and forks and front and rear wheel floating round doing nothing. I picked it up pretty cheap, so would let it go fairly cheaply too :)

May possibly be good for me or my wife (depending if i find another one) - she likes the shorter bikes :)

[Henk]

You're right, the FXRs on tardme are way over priced. Crashed / deregistered ones turn up every now and then, I got seriously lucky with mine and got it hell cheap. It's the bucket brigade that are holding the prices up, and although they are advertised for 2k and up they aren't regulary selling for that, at some stage the hopeful vendors are going to have to wake up.

[Scotty595]

You're right, the FXRs on tardme are way over priced. Crashed / deregistered ones turn up every now and then, I got seriously lucky with mine and got it hell cheap. It's the bucket brigade that are holding the prices up, and although they are advertised for 2k and up they aren't regulary selling for that, at some stage the hopeful vendors are going to have to wake up.

Totally agree. I saw one today advertised for $4300! lol thats a bit of a joke. Its more than what they bloody sold for new. I believe they were about $3200 new

I will have to see if I can find a crashed one, otherwise I may have found a already sorted bucket for an ok price, but still not much cheapeer than the TM ones

[Yow Ling]

Cheap FXRs are out there , I have bought 10 or 11 varying in price from 600 to 1200, last week i posted a link to one in wellington with a buy now of 900, it has since been pulled but they are out there, once they are buckets there is no going back so there is a used bucket market as well. A mate in welly bought one from a car wrecker for 200 a month or so ago. You need to be onto it have your money sorted and be ready to pounce !!

[Henk]

Depending on how sorted it is it might be about the same as buying a cheap one and doing it yourself. To get back what I have put into my bike (you've seen it, nothing flash) I would have to get about 2 to 2.5 k for it. And that's taking into account the fact that I paid $500 for the bike to start with. Most expensive thing on mine is the GSXR 250 wheels. Budget on about 300 without disks and 450 by the time you have them on. Assuming you can find a set. Mind most of what I have spent (including the wheels) is just to make it look like a proper little racebike. Doesn't go that much better than a stock one.

[Scotty595]

Depending on how sorted it is it might be about the same as buying a cheap one and doing it yourself. To get back what I have put into my bike (you've seen it, nothing flash) I would have to get about 2 to 2.5 k for it. And that's taking into account the fact that I paid $500 for the bike to start with. Most expensive thing on mine is the GSXR 250 wheels. Budget on about 300 without disks and 450 by the time you have them on. Assuming you can find a set. Mind most of what I have spent (including the wheels) is just to make it look like a proper little racebike. Doesn't go that much better than a stock one.

Yeah one i lookin at has got slicks on already, race seat etc etc so good for bucketing, if i can get it might be the go, will have a look round too though

[F5 Dave]

.
. . . or if your bored with selfharm and really want to feel some pain a TF100 will do the trick. . .
Funny I was talkling about that with a mate yesterday & he made a good point, they aren't that bad really. When I started ~90% of 2 stroke F4 bikes were TF or TS based & there have been a few goodies. Ziffles Pepsi, Ram's Red one & heck Speedpro's was pretty potent too. They are the same layout as my RG50 just not watercooled. That can be changed.

[Skunk]

if your bored with selfharm and really want to feel some pain a TF100 will do the trick.I must be a little masochistic then; I'm trying to get power from a TF125.

[F5 Dave]

Actually I remember at Wanganui before 125s were bucket legal Mike had a 100 barrel & a 125 barrel for the clubmans class in the old days & I remember him making some Pantahs look pretty shabby

[Bert]

I must be a little masochistic then; I'm trying to get power from a TF125.

Well I guess I’m masochistic (for a rather long time... being able to remember Ziffles and Rams bikes) and sadomasochism, not only personally destructive but have encouraged other in the same direction.... the TF/ts is a great two stroke foundation; plenty of parts and options.

[NSR143]

i have a NSR MC18 framed GS125 motor, bored to 145ish, with a jacked up rear end thanks to RCE from the spec off the NSR-WORLD web site, some F3 Japan spec arrangement. It probably is too heavy but I know whats important.. phat tyres that look good... a bike and rider big enough to block the track to restrict the opportunities of other riders to overtake.

[Scotty595]

i have a NSR MC18 framed GS125 motor, bored to 145ish, with a jacked up rear end thanks to RCE from the spec off the NSR-WORLD web site, some F3 Japan spec arrangement. It probably is too heavy but I know whats important.. phat tyres that look good... a bike and rider big enough to block the track to restrict the opportunities of other riders to overtake.

Haha fair enough. might look into doing a cbr250 bucket with a 2stroke, heck i might even do two if i get another frame :2thumbsup. And then maybe ill get a rgv150 and chuck a loncin in. -which model is the best bet for the rgv150? cant seem to find any with decent power.

[Bert]

...... -which model is the best bet for the rgv150? cant seem to find any with decent power.

might be struggling to get one of these down to 100cc, though it has been done... check out the MNZ bucket rules via Skunks website:
http://www.bucketracing.co.nz/rules.php?pg=rules

TF100 fits nicely in a CBR frame.. in saying that so does just about anything for that matter.
The newer RG/RGV150 frames (post 98) are steal and are very heavy (surprising more than a fxr frame) unless you can find one of the older RGV125 Alli frames (91-93 slingshots but they are very rare, not the new ones i.e. not what you see on trademe)

We need some of the engineering types here to start making some bucket frames.... TZ???? maybe something like Fred McLean's FREPIN TZ350's !!!!!

great example: http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?mforum=2stroker&t=3140&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45&mforum=2stroker

[Skunk]

Mmmm, nice frame. I see room for improvement though... :lol:

[Yow Ling]

might be struggling to get one of these down to 100cc, though it has been done... check out the MNZ bucket rules via Skunks website:
http://www.bucketracing.co.nz/rules.php?pg=rules



Dont need to get them down to 100cc as they are aircooled you only need to get them close to 125

[Scotty595]

Dont need to get them down to 100cc as they are aircooled you only need to get them close to 125

IN terms of a replacement engine though. Something like a loncin.

What would be good fit with good power?

[Bert]

Dont need to get them down to 100cc as they are aircooled you only need to get them close to 125

True that sorry I was thinking RG150....

[Scotty595]

might be struggling to get one of these down to 100cc, though it has been done... check out the MNZ bucket rules via Skunks website:
http://www.bucketracing.co.nz/rules.php?pg=rules

TF100 fits nicely in a CBR frame.. in saying that so does just about anything for that matter.
The newer RG/RGV150 frames (post 98) are steal and are very heavy (surprising more than a fxr frame) unless you can find one of the older RGV125 Alli frames (91-93 slingshots but they are very rare, not the new ones i.e. not what you see on trademe)

We need some of the engineering types here to start making some bucket frames.... TZ???? maybe something like Fred McLean's FREPIN TZ350's !!!!!

great example: http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?mforum=2stroker&t=3140&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45&mforum=2stroker

How easy are TF100 engines to get hold of? are tf125's legal as well? what sort of power do they put out and are they cheapish to rebuild?

[Yow Ling]

How easy are TF100 engines to get hold of? are tf125's legal as well? what sort of power do they put out and are they cheapish to rebuild?

This may not be accurate !
TF are farmbikes, they have tiny ports and take heaps of grinding to get them to go, TS are the same but have way better porting.
TFs are common as mudbugs, you can buy a motor for $50 easy.
125s are more common than 100s, 125s are legal for buckets check the rules
for about 4 grand you can buy a band new TF mmm shiney

[Bert]

How easy are TF100 engines to get hold of? are tf125's legal as well? what sort of power do they put out and are they cheapish to rebuild?

a dime a dozen, one of the most sold farms bikes in New Zealand (both the TF and TS), the only major difference is the inlet porting and the piston sized (50mm on the Tf100: 55 on the TS125). Both engines are based on (and probably the same) moulds and the earlier 75-76 RM125 motors (though less ported to make farm bikes). If you were lucky enough to find the 78-79 DS125 (again the same as the above TS) the porting replicates the RM more closely so less filing will be required.

Parts, well they are a popular engine and haven’t changed in 30 years so most wreckers will have one or two sitting around; the only issue they really have are the cranks aren’t that great for big revs; good two-stroke oil and they may last a while; and the crank nut has a tendency to come undone (solutions aplenty to solve this)… Speedpro and others has shared their experiences in a earlier thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/95575-Ts-tf100) regarding these potential issues.

All in all, a lot can be done to any of the fore mentioned engines (and easily and well documented, Bell’s Two stroke tuning “RM road racer”) to get good level of power that lays the foundation for a good bike (not in the realms of a fully tuned FXR, but they can be quite quick in the right hands…) and are generally in the form of a cheaper option.
I’ve had mine for a while now and outside of some stupid issues (more to do with me) the engine has been good B grade engine. But maybe I’m being sadomasochistic again…:bash:

as to the rules on 100 vs 125 two strokes, I would suggest reading the MNZ rules. here is a link if you haven't found it already: http://www.bucketracing.co.nz/rules.php?pg=rules

Good luck with your bucket project. Once you start you can’t stop.:woohoo:

[koba]

http://newmanz.co.nz/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=5
Is the engine used alot of bikes down here, I don't know what your tracks are like up there but they work OK as starter engine on our tight tracks.

[Scotty595]

Oh cool.

Can you get a watercooled version of it?

I can see "CBD 150cc Water Cooled" on the site but when i click on it it says "Sorry, the product was not found."

So does this engine exist? -is it more powerful?

[Bert]

Oh cool.

Can you get a watercooled version of it?

I can see "CBD 150cc Water Cooled" on the site but when i click on it it says "Sorry, the product was not found."

So does this engine exist? -is it more powerful?

I think you will find that they are a motor to go into tooctoocs (sp) as they have a reverse gear. shame they actually look like biz. unless they have change the configuration from last time I googled them.

[Scotty595]

I think you will find that they are a motor to go into tooctoocs (sp) as they have a reverse gear. shame they actually look like biz. unless they have change the configuration from last time I googled them.

Okay cool.

Thanks for that. How much power would be possible out of the 150 Air cooled?

[koba]

Oh cool.

Can you get a watercooled version of it?

I can see "CBD 150cc Water Cooled" on the site but when i click on it it says "Sorry, the product was not found."

So does this engine exist? -is it more powerful?

Not sure, the ones around here are aircooled.


I think you will find that they are a motor to go into tooctoocs (sp) as they have a reverse gear. shame they actually look like biz. unless they have change the configuration from last time I googled them.

There are a few versions, That guy sells some with five foward and no reverse gears.


Okay cool.

Thanks for that. How much power would be possible out of the 150 Air cooled?

Heaps if you wan't to piss about with it and turn it into a monster but if you kee it reasonable you will be down on outright horsepower against other engines BUT they have a nice flat power curve and are easy to ride, Fi5y can beat almost anyone on our two tracks with one of these engines in a ZXR 250 frame. I belive he has a "Race CDI" and the larger carb option on his but it is otherwise standard.

Remember Horsepower figures dont tell the full story alone.

In fact if anyone other than Glen or Bayden beat him at the Easter meeting I will buy them a Crest.

Always remember rider ability is worth heaps and a bucket with these kind of engines are easy to learn on.

P.S. It would be quite slow on a full size race track.