You might yawn but...

[dpex]

I had a very interesting experience last night. Tooling along a long straight. No other traffic except a cager stopped. He was operational but stopped. I got within 50M when he pulled into a uey.

Given I was just bumbling along at about 120Ks the stoppie was not an issue. So I rolled right a bit and stopped with my headlights right in his face.....A face, which at that stage was clearly ashen from realising he'd nearly caused a pile-up.

His excuse for his actions was actually quite understandable and worth noting here.

Team Zimmer has twin headlights which are separated by a bit of plastic.

This guy said, 'Honestly, mate. I looked in my mirror. Saw your lights. Assumed is was a car way back down the straight, so thought it was safe to turn.'

I thought about that and realised he was right. My twin headlights could easily be mistaken for a far-away vehicle.

So there's something to consider about perceptions and staying alive.

[YellowDog]

It's a good point and does explain why cars pull out of junctions at night in front of bikes.

I've always said the very same thing. And that's why I only have one dipped beam.

Certainly worth thinking about.

[blossomsowner]

good observation
many years ago i knew of a guy who had a serious accident because of the exact same issue.........the car that pulled out thought he was another car.......a long way off. didn't help that he was travelling at speed. Was messy...

[Virago]

120 to 0 in less than 50m? Pretty impressive - well done.

[Okey Dokey]

Wow, food for thought on the headlight issue.

Impressive stopping by you!

[Jantar]

One of the reasons I'm against cars having headlights on in daylight when its compulsory for motorbikes.

[Ixion]

Wobble. Weave from side to side in the lane. Right wheel track, left wheel track, centre, rinse lather repeat. Make those lights move around.

[Okey Dokey]

Good points, ixion & jantar.

[sAsLEX]

Wobble. Weave from side to side in the lane. Right wheel track, left wheel track, centre, rinse lather repeat. Make those lights move around.

And always steer towards the driver, you will get bigger faster and register as a threat in their primevial brains so they will notice you if they think you are going to kill them

[dpex]

120 to 0 in less than 50m? Pretty impressive - well done.

No, that's not a big deal.

I don't wish to appear arrogant here, for that is not my intention, but racing and track-days tend to teach way higher ratios for stopping distances.

Like at Puke I'm still doing 200 at the 100M marker and shitting myself feeling the back wheel floating.

But the really hot boys and girls are well over 50Kph to my best. Better braking, more courage, you name it. And the likes of Stroud, Clea, Shirrifs, et al, are on the front wheel through the corner!

I guess it's all a mater of practice, really. Lots of it is good for you. Little of it exposes you.

And so many of us refuse to go out there and practice.

My two bits.

But the lights thing. That intrigued me. I can clearly see how a cager...in fact a biker, could make such a simple mistake.

[p.dath]

Team Zimmer has twin headlights which are separated by a bit of plastic.

This guy said, 'Honestly, mate. I looked in my mirror. Saw your lights. Assumed is was a car way back down the straight, so thought it was safe to turn.'

I'm glad you two had a civil chat afterwards. That was a valuable chat. I'll definatey take that into consideration buying my next bike (luckily have a single headlight already).

[p.dath]

Found this interesting snippit from "Vehicular accident investigation and reconstruction".
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Y_qwwxaxNfAC&pg=PT324&lpg=PT324&dq=motorcycle+accident+%22two+headlights%22&source=bl&ots=Cr60S7tFP3&sig=JSOKbxX6dtRsBt6qhX-N19GjM6w&hl=en&ei=ANxOS5-WD5GasgPL4tD1Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=motorcycle%20accident%20%22two%20headlights%22&f=false

Jump to the headlights section. Seems one headlight isn't really any better either (or rather, also has associated risks).

EDIT: The bit on braking below it is a crock of shit though. And this from a guide on accident investigation!
EDIT EDIT: The section under "Size of vehicles" notes that since introduction of compulsory headlight use that accident rates have not changed. The book appears to be US based.

[DarkLord]

I have the answer -

Get a bike with a stacked headlight.... such as a Hyosung :devil2:

[sinfull]

Fucking flashing red and blues and a siren !
Or even perhaps a reallisation that the prick is likely to do a u turn in front of you !

Had a couple of mates taken out by the same woman doing a uturn in a 4x4, just around the apex of a blind sweeper on Xmas eve ! Made the boxing day ride to wangas a bit of an anti !

[Ronin]

Did you see the News last night? The family who pulled out in front of the fuckofforange (tm) 30 ton truck?

What chance do we have?

[CookMySock]

Best bet is get a FUCKING BRIGHT ONE, so one cursory glance (all you are often afforded) tells cagers that you are very near indeed. By the time they have done the maths, well, they have done the maths, and they have already come to a complete halt.

Steve

[Movistar]

I tend to flick my light to high beam (Pass switch) a few times if I encounter a vehicle at night at pace (or not).

Also if heading down country roads in the daytime it's a good idea too - illegal maybe, but I figure the chances of getting a fine for having a headlight on full is a dam sight less likely than being taken out by someone that doesn't see you.

Would it change their perception of how far away you are? Probably not.
But it may make them take a second look before pulling out.
Which can make the difference...

[Roadsafe Nelson]

A valuable lesson for you. The following is taken from the ACC Ride Forever website:

"Be conspicuous

Sorry mate. Didn't see you. Five words you never want to hear. Yet because bikes make up such a small percentage of on-road vehicles (and have a habit of seeming invisible to other motorists), successfully achieving this involves more than putting in earplugs while you're waiting for the ambulance to arrive.

The Golden Rule first: Always ride assuming you have not been seen.

Now make yourself (and any passenger) the centre of attention by:

* Riding with the headlight/s on day or night.
* Wearing brightly coloured and reflective clothing, ditto helmet.
* Riding with accessory running lights on as they add definition, making it easier to recognise an approaching bike.
* Riding slowly enough for other road users to see you and judge your speed.
* Owning a colourful or light-coloured motorcycle.

Positioning yourself on the road where other drivers are most likely to see you is another wise idea"

check out www.rideforever.co.nz there is a heap of valuable information on there!! :2thumbsup

[Roadsafe Nelson]

www.rideforever.co.nz

Keen to be seen

Four out of every five motorcycle crashes in New Zealand involve another vehicle. And yes, the majority of those crashes are due to the actions of the other driver. The most common reason they give as the recently retired rider is carried off on a stretcher?

"Y'know, I looked but I didn't see him."1

A New Zealand study found the single most common cause (41%) of all collisions was another vehicle pulling out in front of the motorcyclist. A further 32% of collision crashes occur at intersections.2

And the situation may be getting worse thanks to the increasing proportion of taller vehicles (such as 4WDs and commercials) that now make it harder to see and be seen across traffic. It's particularly a problem for vulnerable road users such as pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists.

Don't head for rehab blaming the driver, no matter how incompetent. There is plenty you can do to 'stack the deck' in your favour.

What you wear can make a difference. In one recent New Zealand study, riders wearing reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk than others who did not. Wearing of white helmets was also associated with a 24% lower risk than wearing black helmets. Riders with lights on during the day had a 27% lower risk.3 Here's what else you can do:

* Don't ever assume they've seen you.
* Don't weave between lanes in heavy traffic.
* Learn to recognise each vehicle's blind spot and stay out of them.
* Try to stay long enough in each driver's rear-vision mirror to make sure they have seen you before you move on.
* Use your horn if you think you haven't been seen.
* Move within your lane to improve your chances of being seen.
* If your rush-hour lane is moving freely but the lane beside you has slowed or even stopped, watch for impatient drivers suddenly switching lanes.

:ride::scooter::ride:

[shafty]

Good thread - and good points made above roadsafe; I've read stuff earlier about white helmets - and have heard people 'dis' it - but research is research, ie actual data - and if the results are an 'inconvenient truth', why do the research in the first place? It does intrigue me though and I will definitely bear this in mind when I buy my next helmet.

I am also interested in the hi-vis vest thing - I will also wear mine more now also, if not all the time. My theory is that a white helmet combined with a flouro yellow/lime vest (as opposed to flouro orange) is that they grab the periphial vision as a Police Officer does.

I definitely agree with day running lights. I have them on the ST and I think they define things nicely - and 'grab your attention' too.

My Wife on her 750 Shadow rides with her light on highbeam, for the same reason - attention grabbing, and her light isn't bright enough to be annoying. I have seen a press photo of us amongst 500 bikes on a parade, and you can instantly pick us two out, which confirms iin my mind, the worth of it.

Thanks for starting the thread - a great point and hopefully we can all still learn....

[Roadsafe Nelson]

I've read stuff earlier about white helmets - I am also interested in the hi-vis vest thing.. hopefully we can all still learn....

Great attitude shafty!!

check out the attached pic.. it says it all!! :yes:

[Mikkel]

I had a very interesting experience last night. Tooling along a long straight. No other traffic except a cager stopped. He was operational but stopped. I got within 50M when he pulled into a uey.

Given I was just bumbling along at about 120Ks the stoppie was not an issue. So I rolled right a bit and stopped with my headlights right in his face.....A face, which at that stage was clearly ashen from realising he'd nearly caused a pile-up.

His excuse for his actions was actually quite understandable and worth noting here.

Team Zimmer has twin headlights which are separated by a bit of plastic.

This guy said, 'Honestly, mate. I looked in my mirror. Saw your lights. Assumed is was a car way back down the straight, so thought it was safe to turn.'

I thought about that and realised he was right. My twin headlights could easily be mistaken for a far-away vehicle.

So there's something to consider about perceptions and staying alive.

I call BULLSHIT! (Or at least fallible human observation skills.)

If what you relate is both true and accurate you would have been decelerating at 11.1111 m/s^2 - which is about 1.1 G. Reality doesn't work that way. I'm not saying that your experience didn't occur, merely that you got your numbers wrong. You did not stop from 120 km/h in 50 m - not on a bike, without hitting an obstacle, anyway.

However, one would truly have to be an irredeemable idiot to think it valid to evaluate the distance of a vehicle by the headlight spacing. You use the lights to establish that there is another vehicle, then you spend a little bit of time (a fraction of a second is enough for most people) to evaluate how quickly said vehicle is travelling and how close it is. So, his excuse is BULLSHIT too. It's a matter of him being fucking slack rather than your bike having twin headlights.

Glad you are ok! And I'm sure it felt like 50 m and 120 km/h in the circumstance. ;)


One of the reasons I'm against cars having headlights on in daylight when its compulsory for motorbikes.

Come on, you are brighter than that!

[LBD]

Some really good points in this thread, I am glad you stopped for a chat.

Remember the old landrovers with the head lights close together? Several times when one was coming towards me at night, I almost got caught out misjudging the distance he was away from me and I came close to a side swipe, so I can understand exactly what the car driver was thinking when he turned in front of you

[p.dath]

What you wear can make a difference. In one recent New Zealand study, riders wearing reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk than others who did not. Wearing of white helmets was also associated with a 24% lower risk than wearing black helmets. Riders with lights on during the day had a 27% lower risk.

Can you tell me what study this was? I'd like to read it. Especially a NZ study. I'd also be interested if there was any correlation by time of day. For example, I could see high-viz vests making a bigger difference at night time.

I've tried finding info like this, but all the evidence I've read found it made almost no difference to the accident rate.

[Roadsafe Nelson]

Can you tell me what study this was? I'd like to read it. Especially a NZ study. I'd also be interested if there was any correlation by time of day. For example, I could see high-viz vests making a bigger difference at night time.

I've tried finding info like this, but all the evidence I've read found it made almost no difference to the accident rate.

The bottom of the page that quote was taken from on the ACC website says

" 1) Young, J. & Fink-Jensen, K. (2001), Motorcycle Crashes Taxonomic Analysis, Prepared for ACC by BRC Marketing and Social Research, Wellington.

2) Young, J. & Fink-Jensen, K. (2001), Motorcycle Crashes Taxonomic Analysis, Prepared for ACC by BRC Marketing and Social Research, Wellington.

3) Wells, S., Mullin, B., Norton, R., Langley, J., Connor, J., Lay-Yee, R. & Jackson, R. (2004), Motorcycle rider conspicuity and crash-related injury: case-control study. British Medical Journal, Vol. 328, p 7444."

Have a good look around on the website for yourself.. or get in touch with ACC & they might be able to supply more info

Wearing high-vis vests in the daytime helps you stand dramatically.. do a test yourself.. put a vest on a mate & go for a ride :niceone:

[FROSTY]

I think the point DPEX is making is an interesting one and quite frankly valid. His perception of the facts might be a bit outa kilter but the point is valid.
PEOPLES depth perception can get outa whack.
Theres some pretty good puzzles that demonstrate just that.
I'd though like to throw out a bone of contention re the wearing of bright colored gear.
At night,bad light,shitty weather I agree totally with wearing bright gear. But on a bright sunny day I don't agree.
I'd like to see the photo posted of the same asituation but on a really sunny day and colorful cars behind.

[Smifffy]

Two points that I'd like to raise:

1. A couple of weeks ago I was present when the mess had to be cleaned up after a Truck and Trailer unit pulled out in front of a Train with bells & lights and all. I heard a report that less than a week later another truck & Trailer raced a train at the exact same spot. Luckily the trains go slow there and nobody got hurt, but if these trucks are either not seeing a train/lights with bells, or are seeing them, and deciding to try taking the gap anyway, what chance is there for a tiny wee bike?

2. What about all this urban camo type riding gear? It all looks kind of trendy but I thought that would just be asking not to be seen?

Cheers

[sAsLEX]

An idea for us headlight challenged bikes http://www.ecliptech.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=160

[Lucy]

Wobble. Weave from side to side in the lane. Right wheel track, left wheel track, centre, rinse lather repeat. Make those lights move around.

Yes but is there something other than my normal riding style I can do to be safer?

[FROSTY]

My personal take on this situation is the same as its always been. The RIDER rides always as if every driver is out to kill him/her. EXPECT them not to see you and ride accordingly

[Grubber]

I call BULLSHIT! (Or at least fallible human observation skills.)

If what you relate is both true and accurate you would have been decelerating at 11.1111 m/s^2 - which is about 1.1 G. Reality doesn't work that way. I'm not saying that your experience didn't occur, merely that you got your numbers wrong. You did not stop from 120 km/h in 50 m - not on a bike, without hitting an obstacle, anyway.



However, one would truly have to be an irredeemable idiot to think it valid to evaluate the distance of a vehicle by the headlight spacing. You use the lights to establish that there is another vehicle, then you spend a little bit of time (a fraction of a second is enough for most people) to evaluate how quickly said vehicle is travelling and how close it is. So, his excuse is BULLSHIT too. It's a matter of him being fucking slack rather than your bike having twin headlights.

Glad you are ok! And I'm sure it felt like 50 m and 120 km/h in the circumstance. ;)



Come on, you are brighter than that!

I assume there was a valid reason for all the in depth analysis. Most of us kinda got what he was trying to say.


My personal take on this situation is the same as its always been. The RIDER rides always as if every driver is out to kill him/her. EXPECT them not to see you and ride accordingly

Now this makes sence...well done scholar.